00:31:48 BRINGBACKOFRN! 00:34:34 #freeofrn 00:39:29 #freeofrn 00:48:21 fucker eats his feet and likes necro, little... and doesn't browse the internet likes humans 00:48:34 fucker eats his feet and likes necro, little... and doesn't browse the internet like humans 01:05:14 https://monero.town/post/2251 01:05:24 _10 month ago_ 01:13:28 So, what little bitch banned ofrnxmr this time? Do we need some spring cleaning ? 01:51:04 The total daily transactions have dropped dramatically. Did The flood attack finish? 01:57:29 the spam stopped, yes 01:57:56 if it was an attack or not is not clear 02:14:05 It has stopped now. Avr 35k tx per day. The ring size was 16 and now it's like 7, some say 5 but the attack has made the network less anon. 02:44:47 afaik the ring size 5-7 was during the spam attack, it does not apply anymore since the spam stopped 03:38:47 I remember when ring size 7 was considered enough D: 06:59:04 Good cautionary tale 06:59:25 Maybe the morale of the story is to always be creating new accounts 08:32:32 hello goyim 08:40:34 thats little risky , as you need to nr cautious everytime to secure your new seeds properly and you don't accidentally lose all your balance while sweeping funds 08:40:43 > <@aremor:matrix.org> Maybe the morale of the story is to always be creating new accounts 08:40:43 thats little risky , as you need to be cautious everytime to secure your new seeds properly and you don't accidentally lose all your balance while sweeping funds 11:05:54 Also shouldn't that be unnecessary because we already create one time stealth addresses anyway? So the risk you described is bigger than a potential gain. 11:05:55 I mean there shouldn't be a difference between churning and sending to another seed, am I right? 11:05:55 aremor 11:12:55 That comment was about LM accounts kevino 11:15:58 MrWonderland: ^ 11:33:19 Ohhh, okay sorry 😅 Nvm then 12:15:21 Is there any currency or currency-like object which I can exchange privately and *easily* with monero, and which can be exchanged into real currency (preferrably USD)? 12:16:03 Bonds? Stocks? I'm not sure how it works.. are there any open platforms where I can trade those? Or it must be through a platform controlled and overseen by the GOVs? 12:25:56 gold and silver 12:26:39 https://www.suissegold.eu/en/monero 12:27:32 Does it deliver actual gold? Or can I just store the gold in my account there? 12:27:51 In the latter case, can I get USD quickly from that account? 12:29:08 ladies and gentlemen, paper gold 12:30:26 they deliver gold 12:30:35 i've never looked into paper gold, doesn't appeal to me 12:30:53 but i'm sure there's someone out there willing to take your xmr and give you their own fiat currency... 12:33:03 hashem I want to make sure that the risk is really low, robustly repeatable. 12:33:44 Anyway, thanks for the pointer. I will take a deeper look on what they offer. 12:36:45 how are monero and wownero related? 12:38:50 they have a mostly shared code base, it's the doge to our bitcoin 12:39:21 except, kind of opposite because XMR has tail emission like doge, while WoW is hard capped like BTC.... which is probably not good for WoW long term but anyway 12:41:00 Lyza: what's the likelihood that wownero devs will put malicious code into the codebase one day 12:41:07 how low effort is it exactly? 12:42:54 I can't really put odds on that for you but I would not call it low effort. there is active development / maintenance from what I can tell, and if they were gonna try to rugpull they shoulda done it when it was $1.5 not 15 cents =p 12:43:04 WoW is 5.5 years old now 12:43:30 there's the #wownero channel on OFTC if you wanna check it out 12:43:59 > WoW is 5.5 years old now 12:44:00 what 12:44:18 yeah since late 2018 12:48:43 April 1st 2018 12:48:52 what other day would it be lol 12:50:47 lol 12:51:48 lolero 12:51:57 An ero that lols. 12:54:59 Do the Wownero devs actually contribute back to the Monero codebase? Not sure, I would be surprised however 12:55:23 Anyway, it's probably not that easy to put malicious code into our codebase, from anywhere 12:55:45 Sometimes you can hardly get your non-malicious code in :) 12:56:32 Does monero's "history" unbreakable guarantee relies on the assumption that certain cryptographic techniques it uses will never be broken? 12:58:51 My, do we have a guarantee? 12:59:22 But seriously: Yes, I think so. Like the whole rest of all crypto-using software on the whole planet. 12:59:56 nij-: yes. reality so harsh usually no one mentions it 13:00:06 If somebody starts to factor 2000 digit primes with an abacus and some clever system, it's game over 13:00:10 the algos will be broken someday 13:00:45 Maybe. For some things, you can prove that they are "unbreakable". For many, not yet. 13:11:41 B-| Ooops :( 13:11:46 I think this should be on the front page. 13:12:08 rbrunner What are some things that are unbreakable? 13:13:32 permaybehaps. the problem is that basically every reasonably secure message exchange between everyone relies on them 13:14:48 people don't wanna think about it 13:15:21 Thanks. I will find out exactly how it will break. First by reading the intro pdf :D 13:15:38 Every promise is an abstraction, and every abstraction leaks. 13:16:58 even i don't think my bad jokes will be decrypted by your favorite glowing organization within my lifetime 13:17:26 which is probably the compromise that will lead to my utter destruction 13:46:26 Where can I see the raw data of all transactions? 13:46:33 (I don't want an UI.) 13:51:45 data.mdb ? 13:52:32 not sure what you mean by "no UI" 14:03:44 He still lives in the 1970s, back when everything a computer did was printed out on paper. 14:19:55 Lyza where is data.mdb? 14:19:59 (Sorry I'm really new..) 14:20:29 Also, does monero mandate Tor for transaction? It seems that "Kovri" is still not mandated. 14:20:43 data.mdb is the raw LMDB (database) file, it's in the lmdb folder inside bitmonero, but I don't think that's really what you want 14:20:49 If so, how about when one wants to transact at a place where TOR is banned? 14:20:59 tor is not mandatory 14:21:27 clearnet and i2p are also supported 14:21:43 Kovri is dead, if you want i2p just use i2pd 14:22:14 Here? https://github.com/monero-project/monero/tree/master/src/lmdb 14:22:52 like, it's literally a file on your computer if you are running a monero node..... but what is it you actually want? 14:23:14 what do you want transaction data for? "no UI" just means you'll be staring at a bunch of hexadecimal you don't udnerstand 14:23:23 I want to see the its real struct info.. 14:24:20 something like this? https://monerohash.com/explorer/tx/b2904afd60614db96e9696f7cacce39cde695239c25ecf8e3ad5d7769172e6d9/1 14:24:29 (obviously this has a UI but....) 14:25:47 Ok good enough :) It has a JSON rep. 14:27:32 in monerod there is the option: print_tx [+hex] [+json] 14:27:39 https://getmonero.dev/docs/interacting/monerod-reference.html 14:27:44 I'm not really using monero yet.. 14:27:53 gotcha 14:29:30 I'm interested in learning the cryptographic techniques and implementations :-) 14:30:14 Lyza is there a de facto copy of the ledger db online somewhere? 14:30:26 (I just wanna make sure that it "exists" :D ) 14:30:41 if you want a technical write up there's https://web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf 14:31:13 Thanks!!!!! 14:31:18 It's almost 4 years old though.) 14:31:36 still mostly accurate 14:32:52 a somewhat out of data copy of the blockchain is kept on the getmonero.org downloads page, and then like, all the various block explorers are also 'de facto copies online' I suppose 14:32:58 out of date* 14:44:08 Thanks. 14:44:16 How many full nodes are running, roughly? Can I list all of them? 14:47:14 this number will be an undercount but the main map I am aware of is: https://monerohash.com/nodes-distribution.html 14:47:50 Thanks! monerohash.com seems to be a great site for all sorts of info 14:49:24 just found this, they claim to have seen over 22k nodes over the last two weeks: https://monero.fail/map 14:51:22 How official is monerohash.com ? 14:51:50 it's just a mining pool 14:51:57 Btw, where can I see roughly how long it takes for a miner to complete a block (and how many txs therein)? 14:53:19 like on average? not sure, but the expected block time is 2 minutes and difficulty adjustments are frequent. you can also see a daily transaction chart at https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/monero-transactions.html 14:53:56 Wow, what happened in init March? 14:55:01 preliminary analysis: https://github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/tree/main/Monero-Black-Marble-Flood/ 14:55:41 possibly somebody testing effectiveness of so called "black marble" attack on privacy, but we don't really know 14:56:56 Hmm Oh yeah.. what if someone deliberately flood the network? 14:57:07 Can the network ban that person? No way, right? 15:00:07 yeah, no way 15:00:38 :( ... 15:00:52 That's an actual problem, right? 15:01:50 fees are really the only discouragement, there has been some talk of raising them a bit but it's hard to raise fees enough to discourage a powerful actor without adversely impacting normal users 15:02:39 so-called full chain membership proofs are also being researched, which would make the "ring size" the entire chain, which would neutralize the effectiveness of flooding on privacy 15:03:28 increased ring sizes for the more short term have also been discussed, but at a certain point performance becomes an issue. node software needs some optimization work 15:04:16 I see. 15:04:19 anyway if you check the research, even assuming the person was controlling 80-90% of the transactions, they only took the average effective ring size down to 5-7 15:04:47 which is not great, and obviously some transactions are more affected than others just by bad luck, but at the same time, ring size 7 used to be the standard 15:05:09 and luckily even when a ring is fully revealed, amounts and addresses stay hidden 15:05:45 Note taken. 15:18:21 @Lyza fees are too too cheap, users who want privacy can pay 5cents 15:19:53 @Lyza its not badluck if bad decoy selection is using too many recent outputs which might be 'black marble' 15:20:54 or even using know coibase outputs / p2pool outputs 15:21:12 I'm saying that selecting decoys is random, therefore there is naturally variance in how many 'poisoned' outputs users would pick 15:22:43 the DSA used to pick among all outputs equally but that led to having an effective "most recent output = real spend" heuristic since most outputs get spent quickly 15:30:35 @Lyza its impossible to know if most recent outputs are spent quickly, its impossible to know in monero unless you guys have bugged wallet apps to know this data 15:31:46 using other chain data which is never actually used money but mostly exchanges doing txs, to make dsa depending on that is not correct 15:32:14 also using so many recent outputs in your decoy selection, invites these kinda attacks and makes them effective 15:32:31 there is also data from Monero pre RingCT 15:32:57 also, using recent decoys makes the effectiveness of these attacks die out faster than it otherwise would 15:33:09 everything is tradeoffs 15:33:36 also I didn't design or choose the DSA, I'm just some guy who has been following the r&d 15:39:35 What are good Monero accounts to follow on Nostr? 15:41:07 npub1l0j7srkgmdwy8839st2hn8f9utlgh9vtrm04jksh8tsu32h5vpms9k7zqa 15:41:23 npub1p47we20qqrn3rcnrhs22ygt2kayk320fq046y998zscq4hk7tgsqjn2qfl 15:46:36 @lyza effectiveness didnt die off, they have just paused while they regroup or analyze the data and make needed changes 15:51:39 The DSA had a bug fixed recently https://www.getmonero.org/2023/06/08/10block-old-decoy-selection-bug.html 16:24:38 @plowsof that selects more recent outputs ? 16:50:06 what I meant is that for black marbling to continue to be effective, an adversary has to continue to spam, and when they do the effectiveness dies off. wasn't making any sort of statement about the recent spam or saying the risk has passed 16:50:18 when they do stop* 17:14:40 "while they regroup" Sweet. 18:20:53 new member 21:12:07 sum eth dapps are mandating kyc like vusd. onchain dapps are all going to require kyc sooner or later. monero wins again 21:24:18 question. when serai come out why would people who use monero want to private liquidity for kyc, non fungible coin? 21:30:57 btc, eth and other public chain are not fungible. lots of dapp on eth going to kyc now for stablecoin buyer. this mean stablecoin market for eth will soon all be kyc. if users want to safely hold money they will swap from btc/eth to xmr but who from xmr want to take on that risk when swap? this is where price premium come in. when this moment comes, not cbdc or other bullshit, xmr 21:30:58 will go up lots because people want to sometimes save their money 21:33:21 that why serai and haveno is most important 21:33:57 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/xmr.se/PFfQPYyrUMTxDdUrknlhgPpE 21:34:52 eth also based on staking. all protocol now rely on liquid eth or other leveraged eth. for most user they are in US when staking. when sec come for eth all stakers will need kyc. 2k+ nodes also in us need kyc. big trouble for eth users: 21:34:53 https://cointelegraph.com/news/kyc-to-stake-your-eth-it-s-probably-coming-to-the-us 21:35:40 this is because eth is a security 21:37:15 i dont know if this post real but also satoshi actually say bitcoin investment even tho in his email he "doesnt want it to be viewed as investment". satoshi also knew bitcoin was ponzi 21:37:45 he didnt want get in trouble for it so he distance after wikileaks incident 21:51:35 $50m in this dapp and only growing. kyc 😍 21:51:38 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/xmr.mx/YuEdZxRSqvuGtqaJjshnyMQi 22:17:29 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> Is there a way for monerod to always use tor when interacting with stuff on the web? 22:22:29 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> > --tx-proxy arg Send local txes through proxy: 22:22:30 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> ,[,max_con 22:22:30 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> nections][,disable_noise] i.e. 22:22:31 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> "tor,127.0.0.1:9050,100,disable_noise" 22:22:37 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> this? 22:28:09 i think if you use this some txs will go through clearnet if no onion peer is available 22:28:52 -p2p-bind-ip 127.0.0.1 --no-igd 22:29:26 + running tor proxy that locally forward connection to monerod 22:29:50 this using torsocks i think there is a newer experiment way (https://github.com/monero-project/monero/blob/master/docs/ANONYMITY_NETWORKS.md) but i havent tried 22:30:23 --p2p-bind-ip 127.0.0.1 --no-igd 22:33:14 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> how does it know to use 9050 as the port? 22:33:28 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> would like to avoid torsocks tbh 22:34:14 have a read of this then: https://github.com/monero-project/monero/blob/master/docs/ANONYMITY_NETWORKS.md 22:35:18 oh 22:35:21 exit 22:35:31 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> so --tx-proxy won't use clearweb? 22:35:55 when sending a transaction yes 22:35:58 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> (You said it might but the linked doc doesn't seem to say it will) 22:36:22 only txs are routed over tor 22:37:24 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> I want it to be onion-only tbh 22:38:06 you can use --proxy for whole traffic 22:38:09 txs will be held in a local mempool. they arent broadcasted unless you start monerod the tx-proxy flag again or your connected to tor 22:40:33 there are no way to force your node to be *tor-only* as there are no usefulness in doing so. Peers need a fixed address to communicate to and broadcasting messages between them don't leak any privacy sensitive informations. You can at most: Tell monerod to broadcast transactions on anonymity networks and support peering through anonymity networks. You can't disable clearnet p2p 22:40:39 if you specify --add-peer I think so 22:41:35 Torsocks remain the only option for your requirement as selsta proposed with --proxy 22:43:52 what mnemioc seed len will seraphis support again? 22:44:55 iirc polyseed, so 16 words 22:46:08 it still possible to recover older seeds with 25 len? 22:46:24 yes 22:47:14 cool. i cant remember then what the bad thing was. i think it was that all user have to regenerate their address? 22:47:15 because old address wont work 22:47:52 When Seraphis will arrive. Everyone will need to regenerate addresses yes. 22:47:54 but apparently seraphis going to take 10 years so i guess i leave worry for later 22:48:08 More like 5 years 22:48:59 Before 2030 22:49:02 wow 22:49:09 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> Ideally i don't want my ISP to know that i have a monerod on my network tbh and i don't trust VPNs 22:49:44 i hosted node to with torsocks isp wont know 22:49:48 thats only way i know how to do it with torsocks 22:49:59 I hope the devs working on it would be around by the time it’s completed 😅 22:50:30 is fcmp the same. i know it take shorter time if implement with ring sig but with seraphis 5 years? 22:50:36 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> so iiuc `proxy` is not enough right? 22:51:09 Add more time if you want seraphis with fcmp 22:51:31 Also seraphis is still under consideration and can be rejected if it’s not suitable 22:51:36 you said you want tor for everything when interacting with web so yes you need torsocks 22:52:02 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> oke thanks for info 22:52:24 were too early 😢 22:52:34 Or too late 22:52:43 Only time will tell 22:53:10 kyc on all public blockchain coming 22:53:16 were early not late 22:53:40 Yah would be effective in a decade 22:53:57 you know your early when you can use fishy exchange like tradeogre no kyc without problem for now... 22:54:20 remind me of btc no kyc day where you can buy with paypal nothing 22:54:23 It’s last obscure exchanges left 22:54:56 there always will be 1 obscure exchange because of money to be made from fees until the blockchain becomes kyc 22:55:07 We need more of that type of exchange, it's like OG exchange who don't care about anything 22:55:10 when blockchain become kyc thats when it end 22:55:26 We will see, I am waiting for $60 to see if we survive that 22:55:30 it's why we need Serai and Haveno last month 22:55:47 ^ 22:56:03 Last year 22:56:07 look at this. eth dapp need your fucking address now 😁 22:56:27 Haveno last year 22:56:27 Serai last month 22:56:33 serai most important over haveno. people on eth need exit liquidity when the chain captured by blackrock 22:56:42 I don’t deal with gambling shit, I need a functional currency 22:57:03 this not gambling. its just stablecoin 22:57:17 I need to be able to get cash even after LM get cooked 22:57:17 So I really need Haveno before that execute 22:57:24 if all stablecoin need kyc which will happen because they all on usd 22:57:40 eth stakers also will need kyc 22:58:00 And they will kyc if they need Fiat 22:59:18 not eth staker or most stablecoin user dont want kyc. if they kyc they wont use stablecoin just go on exchange not offchain stablecoin 23:00:19 the price will increase because of the privacy premium monero has when all blockchain become kyc 23:02:02 Yes but for privacy you need a functional coin, not something which can be attacked for $600/day 23:02:34 that why were too early 23:03:21 Yah too early and too much hopium 23:03:40 Just take it in a different way 23:03:40 the more it go down, the more you can accumulate 23:03:52 And when the great admins scam execute, you are going to be happy 23:03:56 i wont say hopium. this one of the lowest point for monero 23:04:02 The more it goes down, more clown I look 23:04:28 did you see my post in monero community? 23:04:34 xmr illiquid right now so the price cant be trusted 23:05:03 Where does the liquidity come from ? When you can’t even have a working coin 23:05:33 Effective ringsize 5-6 is dinosaur tech 23:05:36 We even saw a demonstration about how monero can go up when admins scam 23:05:37 Lookup when Trudeau did confiscate bitcorn and freeze bank account 23:05:37 Then check on XMRBTC daily chart for that date. 23:05:38 Just bring more scam please 23:06:05 compared to alternative this is still good 23:06:19 alternative is ring size of zero yeah lol 23:06:29 what you going to use bitcoin mixer and make your coins 100% tainted? 23:06:43 There are enough alternatives we are not in 2016/17 even wownero can adapt faster 23:07:24 wownero still has limited supply 23:07:24 Plus even if Monero ring stuff get totally cooked, Destination and amounts still protected. That's the advantage of having different obfuscation system for each part of the thing, instead of using one protection for all 23:07:32 Just like ngu corn 23:08:13 Finex hackers got busted for pre ringct txs 23:08:45