00:02:39 https://x.com/cameronruggles/status/1779295608899268714 00:11:35 I would stay away from USDT if your to keep it for 5 minutes anyway. 00:11:36 You are going to pay a premium to send that except if tradeogre now accept TRC20 USDT instead ERC20 USDT 00:27:34 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/JSUwDGoYzankNWPnlDkQivta 00:27:39 both avaliable 00:28:19 use TRC-20 to save good on fees 00:28:20 fees for sending BTC are high, especially small amounts, like regular weekly purchases 00:28:54 yes, good point, need to figure out what is the fee 00:32:55 BTC withdrawal fee probably around 14-16$ ERC 20, hmm maybe 6-8$ so TRC20 maybe 2$ something like this 00:33:55 Or use usdt poly if available, even cheaper 00:34:11 screenshot only say erc-20 and trc-20 00:34:29 yes, two options only avaliable 00:37:10 but BTC and ETHER fees are ridiculous, more costly than mainstream banks, paypal etc in my country, just simply not suitable for frequent or low value transactions 00:38:14 TRX is the only good option for txing USDT imo 00:56:49 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/UWfCFibVGvrJbNvNBXYelAka 00:56:55 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/wAusSxqkozmNUqenADQFSvlh 00:57:21 kraken 3$ biance 1.2$ 01:02:14 @martin.monero:matrix.org: you can use a low-fee coin like LTC or BCH as well 01:02:26 or just use RTX lol 01:02:28 thats what I did to try out tradeogre 01:02:30 TRX* 01:02:35 without le USDT 01:02:46 (it's a lot faster than LTC or BCH 01:02:52 like, *instant* 01:03:01 I lost a couple cents on their LTC->BTC->XMR on the exchange due to rounding 01:03:09 whats TRX though 01:03:47 it's an ETH like shitcoin. It's as fast as ETH without the massive fees 01:03:48 oh cool 01:03:56 if it's just to go from exchange A to exchange B, it's the best option imo 01:04:32 yeah i see there are a lot of centralized coins that just churn the block sizes and stuff up for low fees 01:04:34 I also use it as a payment buffer, like to buy crap on place that don't accept the XMR, they usually accept TRX so you pay for stuff almost as fast as LN 01:04:38 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/FDxTlZcmrmLDBbiXOfupTVld 01:04:44 only two pairs avaliable 01:05:01 yeah, you have to convert whatever you use for the transfer, into BTC 01:05:09 then buy the XMR 01:05:15 reminds me of https://cheapeth.org/ 01:06:25 damn they really need an XMR-LTC pait 01:06:27 *par 01:06:50 *PAIR 01:07:09 Dash is still a thing? LOL 01:07:18 also mimblewimblecoin? 01:09:14 Dash is accept at a few place 01:09:23 mimblewimblething arent accept anywhere afaik 01:09:39 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> XMR is a stable coin just chill(TM) 01:09:40 all I know is that litecoin has mimblewimble 01:09:42 isn't it like CTs 01:10:10 But no one accept the mimnblewimble flavor 01:10:27 really? is it a soft fork no one accepts? 01:11:08 yeah, it's optional 01:11:24 it's like zcash, no one accept shielded ztrash 01:12:25 pretty sure the zcash tech is better than MWEB last I read 01:14:44 there is a coin called dero claiming they use homomorphic encryption 01:14:45 that can 01:14:46 that can't be efficient 01:16:21 YO LOOK AT THIS 01:16:22 https://github.com/deroproject/astrobwt/blob/master/miner/miner.go 01:16:38 this is supposed to be ASIC/GPU resistant in like 80 lines of go 01:16:40 lmao 01:17:55 oh wait nevermind 01:19:11 wait look they reimplemented randomX in go 01:19:29 no wait 502 bad gateway 01:19:31 https://git.dero.io/DERO_Foundation/RandomX 01:28:27 Lol 01:28:52 Dero feel like so scammy, it's like a xmr version of the scam facilitator 01:47:41 Dero is way newer than Monero, and yet their blockchain is twice the size already. 01:48:33 I just don't think smart contracts really works in currencies. I mean, does any fiat currency have smart contracts? 02:03:14 oh wait I just read up about how BWT works 02:03:38 its interesting, it's like for compression algorithms 02:03:42 I think i studied it before 02:04:21 but their claim is basicially just "if someone implements BWT as an ASIC then it's good for scientific progress so whatever" 02:42:43 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/PWheOmpDwuzVMzMHkntKyipo 02:43:27 it looks like that will be a war with China, all Chinese exchanges are not accepting folks from the UK 03:17:35 i reccomend kraken but whatever exchange you use will be limited by jurisdiction 03:17:55 I remember I used binance for a while but when I moved I had to use a vpn to get access to my account again 03:18:04 just to close it 03:23:22 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/IwaVHmZadJnCkhCoJdGAzmAu 03:23:48 waiting 9 days to withdraw crypto from Coinbase, absolutely piece of crap 03:24:35 so maybe Kraken will be better, no idea :( 04:07:41 yeah coinbase is bad 04:08:24 I think their buisness may actually be defunct 07:22:50 I don't think I would ever use a KYC exchange. The thought of your ID, maybe even selfies lying there in their databases, ready to be leaked to whatever wants to exploit it... 07:43:56 <321bob321:monero.social> leak inbound 07:53:42 I wonder whether such people ever use banks, credit card companies, insurances, etc. You know, all these entities with tons of KYC info about you 07:54:13 And well, there is no non-KYC bank, or non-KYC insurance, right? 08:20:25 Anything related to earning money or spending money has KYC. 08:32:12 https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1c3dmmc/monero_network_attack_tor_network_attack/ 08:32:16 great post 08:35:13 rbrunner, and mobile carriers, et cetera. These are at least more or less unavoidable. This is also awful but not like you have an option. 08:38:12 remiliascarlet, at least a salary you can get in cash if you look for it. No idea about legality, just know it is happening. 08:38:47 Everything appears coordinated. Be sure not to overlook the obvious efforts at social engineering targeting Monero's online social groups, trying to split up the community. 08:42:28 what happen on monero price? 08:42:31 Reddit downvote bots in r/Monero do also come across as mighty shifty. 08:45:56 Price shows all market details. Currently, Monero is very exposed and vulnerable after the flood and community attacks on consensus, which impacts the price. In comparison to leading coins such as Bitcoin and Ethereum, Monero has dropped significantly because of this. 08:46:17 Ah, I get why it feels like such a "nope". Because it is not a government-related service at all, and quite the opposite of that. Using a KYC to buy crypto would be less akin to using one for banking/insurance and more akin to using one to register on social media, which is more clearly crossing the line. 08:48:46 "flood and community attacks on consensus"? can you explain more details? I haven’t paid much attention to monero lately 08:59:58 is it written by simplified privacy the FUDester? Cloudflare fud debunked https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/you-re-being-lied-to-tor-is-2-hops-not-3-simplified-privacy/16317/4 09:01:31 @price jpy 09:01:42 Oh, that bot is not here it seems. 09:03:09 irc price bot? 09:03:25 where can I use it 09:08:55 I will try my best to give a brief summary after reading the entire backlog since March for this Matrix chat. These are the notes I have taken offline. 09:08:56 Monero has faced various attacks including: 09:08:57 - Black Marble Spam Attack is causing significant problems for Monero by increasing transaction wait times and compromising privacy through shrinking effective ring signatures. Transactions may take longer to complete, especially if they have low fees attached. 09:08:58 - Delistings are occurring at various centralized exchanges worldwide, such as Kraken in specific countries like Ireland and Belgium. In my opinion, this trend is expected to continue. 09:08:59 - Popular members of the Monero community, such as users like ofrnxmr and gr8tful, are experiencing issues with bot-driven attacks in places like the Reddit forum. These attacks can be seen through massive downvotes on their posts or proposals for funding projects (CCS). 09:09:00 - Troll-driven social engineering has also disrupted communication within Monero's community by creating distractions focused on nonessential political issues. These actions seem aimed at weakening the community by dividing it and makes the developers focus on politics rather than real issues, much like what happened to Bitcoin. 09:09:01 All of this has happened recently and the attacks are only going to ramp up from here. Highly suspicious, especially before the release of Haveno and potentially Serai soon. Someone sees us as a significant threat. 09:12:35 I guess the price has declined because of these reasons. Donations to the GF have also increased to compensate. 09:15:32 thank you share these information, seems monero has been keep on some guy's eyes 09:18:35 No problem. Monero used to have some problems in the past, but now it has lots of issues in comparison. Before, there was just 09:18:36 one big issue or event but now it's many different attacks by the looks of things. 09:18:53 A1ice: #monero-offtopic 09:21:28 I regard monero as one of the few (or even the only on my mind) privacy-friendly and reliable trade method in modern society. I can accept a large degree of loss, but I am more worried about the sustainable operation of monero network :). 09:21:33 oh, thanks 09:22:05 I regard Monero as one of the few cryptocurrencies that aren't designed to be an exit scam. 09:22:24 Or rather a rug pull. 09:24:21 I wouldn't worry about the operation of Monero. It has a strong community who really care and stick together. Someone lately donated over $200,000 in USD from their own money to help improve Monero. This kind of thing doesn't happen with other kinds of cryptocurrencies. 09:26:04 https://nitter.poast.org/WatchFund 09:26:05 sounds awesome 09:26:58 Someone gave away 600 XMR today. 09:27:08 Almost $70,000. 10:10:47 A1ice, well, not the only because cash. 10:12:46 Cash is disputablely the best method. 10:12:51 Cash is undisputablely the best method. 10:28:12 If crypto was the only one left, that would also be dystopian AF - you would need to be carrying a smartphone wherever you go just for actions as basic as payment. 10:28:53 Although I wonder if there are hardware devices just for payment like that... Would still not want to use it for things as basic as buying groceries. 10:38:38 instead you carry a smart card and every place you want to pay at needs to be connected to a global system and have terminals to talk to your card ... 10:41:30 I sometimes wonder if Monero will be considered as money when there are such big value drops in just one day. It makes me curious about possible methods to maintain its value, like the stability of a stable coin. 10:42:17 You could ofc just carry around a signing card and just tap a shops terminal to pay. No smartphone needed. Just that one side is connected. 10:43:53 Has there ever been discussion about implementing price stability in Monero? 10:46:43 I don't know if it can happen, but I would like to learn about it if people ever talked about this before. 10:54:33 if by price stability, you mean stablecoin 10:54:34 yes, This is has been discussed 10:54:46 and conclusion is that no real stablecoin exist 10:55:05 and no one have any interest into trying such 10:57:13 Trustworthy stablecoins are real, but they need rules, auditing, and centralization - kind of the opposite of what Monero offers. It's a tricky problem as Monero can't become money in my opinion if it continues to be this volatile. 11:18:33 have you been to, for example, Argentina or Zimbabwe ? 11:19:00 maybe Lebanon 11:23:17 Monero isn't connected to bad governments. They have money problems, but just changing money won't help. If places like Argentina, Zimbabwe, or Lebanon used Monero, their troubles wouldn't go away. Fixing politics is more than just changing money. Even if they used Monero, there would still be other problems not linked to money. I talked about this partly in the #monero-offtopic:m 11:23:18 onero.social. Using unrealistic hypothetical scenarios does not justify using Monero, especially in the first world. 11:24:54 This idea supposes that Monero always stays stable and doesn't have ups and downs. But if Monero isn't always steady, it won't be any different from other troublesome money in places with lots of inflation. 11:29:40 In most situations where people normally spend cash, Monero doesn't seem helpful except for niche things like buying VPNs/VPS/etc. or illegal activity. Even though Monero is cool and should keep getting better, it has similar issues Bitcoin, even if Monero is technically superior. 11:33:05 I understand that @rucknium:monero.social is a microeconomist so perhaps they could contribute their knowledge, potentially enhancing or disagreeing with my claims around Monero "adoption". 11:36:21 TIL monero is not on the scale of huge economies nor is it a world reserve currency 11:37:00 it is reserve currency of pirates 11:40:38 According to the website, "GetMonero.org", their slogan claims that Monero represents money; nevertheless, it faces issues regarding its consistency and potential as a store of value because of its volatility. "GetMonero.org" also claims that Monero is a cryptocurrency, which by Satoshi's definition attempts to rival world reserve currencies by being "P2P Electronic Cash". 11:40:38 monero also can provide something "sable" currency can't 11:40:49 that is it's reason for being 11:41:09 *stable 11:42:52 I also discussed this idea within the #monero-offtopic:monero.social channel, pointing out that US Dollars and other established first-world currencies in physical form (cash) remain more advantageous than Monero, despite their flaws. 11:43:52 countries are getting rid of physical cash 11:43:55 omiomi: I don't disagree with your general opinion. Monero and other forms of peer-to-peer electronic cash are niche and probably will stay niche for the foreseeable future. But Monero (and other p2p electronic cash) is very important for people who need it. I analyzed 2021 USA survey data: https://rucknium.me/posts/financial-marginalization-and-cryptocurrency-payments/ 11:44:13 "According to my analysis, people who lack a bank account have 80% higher odds of using cryptocurrency as a means of payment." 11:45:58 USA has released more detailed data for 2022. And EU has similar data now. My 2024 MoneroKon talk is an expansion of this analysis (but frankly that could change if it is more important to switch my talk to the suspected black marble flooding). 11:46:41 Thank you for providing this data and article. When you say "as payment", does this mean direct purchases for goods and services, or does it count exchanging cryptocurrency into USD, and then using cash? 11:46:45 My preliminary analysis of EU data show the same pattern as USA data. And the new 2022 SHEDUSA data has this question: "What was the main reason you used cryptocurrency to buy something, make a payment, or send money?" 11:47:05 About 20 percent of cryptocurrency users said that "privacy" was the main reason. The other top reasons were "Person or business receiving the money preferred cryptocurrency" (25%), "To send the money faster" (20%), and "Cheaper" (12%). 11:48:01 omiomi: It would be how the person being surveyed interpreted the question. 11:49:38 Sometimes in these surveys there is an extended set of instructions given to the surveyors that would help with questions if the survey respondent asks for clarification. I don't know if this survey had that. 11:50:11 I see. How do you, as an economist, view the volatility of Monero? Monero does break one of the properties of money (store of value), and this I have an issue with since it contradicts what the "GetMonero.org" states. 11:50:13 surveyor = person asking the survey questions. respondent = person who is answer the survey questions. 11:51:08 Monero and other cryptocurrencies are handled as a speculative asset. I am not surprised that there is high volatility in its purchasing power over time. 11:51:39 The high volatility makes it harder to adopt as a means of payment 11:51:53 However, store of value is confusing as it is often compared to another currency (USD). In real terms, just in Monero, there would be store of value that is only dwindled by tail emission from what I understand. 11:53:38 actually monero is the least volatile currency among cryptos. it always goes between 120-170 11:54:12 BCH has AnyHedge/BCHBull that has on-chain futures contracts (AFAIK) that can reduce the effect of BCH purchasing power volatility for people who use the contracts. That is maybe something that can help. Or just traditional future contracts like fiat foreign exchange futures could be used. 11:54:30 Unfortunately, today saw Monero's value decrease significantly, causing it to drop down to approximately $107 per unit, breaking this trend. 11:54:50 it was instant, it went back in 10 minutes 11:55:06 so gold is not a store of value because it's supply keeps increasing wow 11:55:33 like any other currency :D 11:55:44 imma beginning to think that you are trolling 11:55:50 me? 11:56:05 no lol 11:56:05 i was actually supporting you 11:56:14 oh ok 11:56:20 If you want the survey questions and basic tables for the two years (2021 & 2022) of SHED data that have cryptocurrency questions, click the Codebooks here (this is a .gov site): https://www.federalreserve.gov/consumerscommunities/shed_data.htm 11:56:22 This sounds intriguing. Got a link maybe? Been thinking about bringing some type stability to Monero. Just wasn't sure how it could be pulled off. 11:56:46 the guy with "concerns" 11:57:20 if you are into shitcoins, take a look at zephyr, it is a useful stable shitcoin 11:57:26 Increasing supply doesn't make something worthless, value still exists. 11:57:31 and stating them in multiple channels 11:58:51 omiomi: https://bchbull.com . Monero does not have any smart contracts, so it would be harder or impossible to do this on Monero AFAIK. 11:59:01 you didn't say worthless, you said store of value 11:59:08 If you find my concerns heinous, I can delete my messages and leave. I was recommended this channel after trying to discuss this on r/Monero as I was told many active contributors could respond on Matrix. 11:59:32 nah 11:59:35 we have seen much worse lol 11:59:55 I am on IRC, your messages remain forever as it should be :) 12:00:10 Tried learning lots from last month's discussions here, and even at r/Monero. But perhaps I messed up somehow. 12:00:25 keep learning :) 12:00:36 economics takes a while 12:00:36 Thank you. Previous discussion about L2 was met with negativity. It's a hard problem to solve. 12:01:03 BCHBull isn't an L2 by the way. 12:02:11 you have found a gem in rucknium 12:02:33 I said Monero relative to USD does not guarantee a SoV as proven today with the value plummeting. However, if we consider Monero by itself it does have SoV that is only affected by the minor inflation rate of coins (tail emission). Having an SoV only in XMR terms assumes Monero is used in a circular economy, which is far from being the case. 12:02:59 Sorry if my position wasn't clear earlier. 12:03:32 I understand that but for Monero to implement something similar it would need a L2? 12:03:48 we can't actually do about it, supply-demand 🤷‍♂️ 12:04:21 bitcoin is going lower and lower inflation but it is still one of the most volatile assets 12:04:27 bitcoin is going lower and lower inflation but it is still one of the most volatile asset 12:04:40 we can't actually do anything about it, supply-demand 🤷‍♂️ 12:05:59 I did mention this earlier. Unless Monero implements something similar to a centralized stablecoin (never happening), then the price relative to USD will always be volatile, making it inferior to cash. 12:07:05 I don't know. You could put smart contracts/programmbility in Monero with a hard fork, but the contracts would not be private. That is basically what Townforge has done (just noticed townforge.net's SSL cert expired April 11). 12:07:59 moneromooo^ 12:08:13 we can make the contracts private but do we actually need sc's 12:09:02 I guess the solution to this problem is a circular economy, but this seems unrealistic at a large scale. 12:09:18 Then users of Monero would not have to worry about parity with USD or other currencies. 12:15:04 I believe smart contracts would introduce bloat into the blockchain? It's size would grow at an unsustainable rate, which would worsen sync times. 12:15:34 yes, you can take ethereum as an example. 12:16:47 In that case, Monero would have to switch to PoS, which is against everything Monero stands for. 12:17:10 If Monero follows the same trajectory as Ethereum. 12:18:22 Thanks, everyone, for the talk. I finally have an answer to my concern. 12:19:16 you are welcome, we are always ready to discuss downsides of monero 12:34:21 For anyone wanting to know my final conclusion, Monero has a Store of Value (SoV) potential under these assumptions: 12:34:22 1) The Monero team maintains it without any issues or bugs that affect its worth in the long run 12:34:23 2) Monero is used in a circular economy where people buy and sell goods using it as their money. 12:34:24 When comparing Monero to other currencies, remember that the volatility of exchange rates doesn't represent SoV. For example, comparing XMR/USD to USD/EUR does not show which one has better value stability, and it can be argued that USD/EUR is as volatile as XMR/USD. The use of Monero for solving tyrannical or corrupt governments shouldn't be considered either; it should only help 12:34:25 people avoid oppression in these extreme situations. 12:34:26 While I acknowledge that US Dollars (in physical cash) are superior to Monero, the usefulness of Monero is about the freedom and privacy it provides in niche situations that may not remain niche in the future. 12:42:09 how difficult would it be to transfer 6 figures usd into monero quickly 12:42:52 USD in cash? 12:45:01 Not much, buy any crypto available in your local otc and then use instant exchanges like trocador to convert it in batches of 5-10k 12:46:26 With a DEX like Serai, exchanging in crypto should be easier? 12:46:38