07:56:39 Was the room history turned off? 09:17:47 yea i dont see the history either 09:41:28 recanman recanman (MOVING TO @recanman:kernal.eu) stop removing your old messages. Your spamming the matrix server, preventing users from seeing history 09:42:05 not like it removes them from IRC anyway 09:42:12 the superior protocol 10:03:43 ceetee.mx: so one user can fuck a public Matrix channel by deleting their old messages? 10:04:16 <123bob123:matrix.org> Seems like it 10:06:03 <321bob321:monero.social> It fcks the room when you mass delete 10:06:19 <321bob321:monero.social> Ask an admin to redact your messages 10:06:45 IRC FTW 10:07:42 depending on matrix client, you can filter such changes out 10:16:13 <321bob321:monero.social> Its pointless, its a public room 10:18:14 The only thing from IRC I miss is message history - but even that was implemented, albeit not universally and janky, in UnrealIRCD. But even that was a concern only before I got a bouncer. Although if every server user can be given a bouncer by the admins, that solves itself too. 10:22:45 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/tWmNPdgeUhpKIzoGCaUhzVyA 10:22:55 "I just destroyed a matrix room....with my FREAKING MIND!" 11:47:47 I don't know about you guys but this room is fuuucked for me 11:49:16 ITS MONEROVER 12:48:21 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/sBnfwAKEpaSFXgihZGqBdsot 13:30:17 need a monero ad where it says "the separation of money and the state" 13:30:33 need a monero ad where it says "the separation of money and state" 13:33:24 need a monero ad where it says "the separation of money and state cannot be stopped" or something similar 14:01:28 ^ last message before the accidental "m.room.redaction" spam 14:01:59 You can click the quote to jump over the extremely laggy scrolling part 14:02:31 I'll make an issue on the Element repository 14:03:11 Nope, there's even more. Click on this to jump over all of it 14:04:46 Seems there already is one 14:13:58 plowsof: The fun thing is that I can probably still see deleted messages, since there's no edit functionality on IRC, let alone delete. Better yet, everything written here is logged and publicly viewable anyway, making deleting posts even on Matrix completely useless. 14:14:35 klausschwab:monero.social: IRC MASTERRACE!! 14:16:42 BlueyHealer: Ergo has message history too, but you will need a very stable server, because each time the daemon restarts (probably from garbage collecting, because it's written in Go), it'll rewind history to everyone, which can get really spammy really quick. 14:17:57 all logs here: https://libera.monerologs.net/monero/20240618 15:10:23 Irc is the superior protocol, just admit it guys. 15:33:48 BlueyHealer: For public comms, indeed. 15:34:42 Yea, for one-to-one or small group encrypted chats I'd prefer XMPP) 15:35:30 true 15:40:38 Also recently paid attention to Simplex because some people were there, a bit sus because it's new and because of the model, but looking with interest now. 15:42:02 It received several audits and are listening to twitter community 15:42:34 I resetted my monero wallet using my seedphrase and resetted the password but when I reset it there was nothing on there. No money, no transactions, nothing. Can anyone help? 15:42:44 You might need to sync 15:43:01 What wallet are you using? 15:45:00 Unlike signal you can also host your own simpleX relay 15:45:21 That needs to be a given for me to even consider using it 15:45:53 I use two matrix servers, this one, and the one I host for my family with federation disabled 15:46:09 I would not even consider using if I cannot host my own... 15:46:35 syntheticbird, ye, I do host an SMP server now. I for now am cautious about how most people are using central servers, but hope there would be more public ones. Seems interesting for sure. 15:46:52 Monero GUI wallet 15:47:02 What does it say at the bottom right? 15:47:06 Although I did not set up an XFTP one - there must've been a mistae in instructions, I followed them fully. 15:47:08 What does it say at the bottom left? 15:47:14 Once you are in your wallet 15:47:37 I've closed the wallet now 15:47:40 I will reopen it 15:49:58 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/nope.chat/vkVbunPWewYhttJeKEtXUGmk 15:51:42 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/nope.chat/afyOZRpMZVxYwzSASoiHwYpv 15:51:57 You have to wait for the wallet to sync 15:52:19 The daemon is synced, but now, your wallet has to scan the blockchain for outputs that it owns. 15:52:23 It will take a while 15:52:39 oh ok 15:52:42 thanks 15:58:21 Fun fact: the total hashrate of XMR is equivalent to 28,000 fully-optimized Threadripper Pro 7995WX computers 15:59:35 If that was actually what was being used, then the total hardware cost of everything running the network would be probably in the range of 350-400 million 15:59:58 Ofc that number isn’t at all correct. 16:00:00 The actual number is much much higher because of botnets 😂 17:37:26 Let's add more botnets to secure monero against tax money spendings 17:37:28 More like let's get rid of botnets, so that legit miners can actually pay their bills and mine profitably 17:37:30 Botnets = thieves, never forget that 17:38:20 botnets = thieves why? 17:38:51 Seems pretty straightforward to me, someone is running things on YOUR property without your consent 17:39:23 Noones wants to integrate Monero if anyone is interested: 17:39:24 https://x.com/ray_noOnes/status/1803006129129029875 17:50:54 did you consent to this message appearing on your screen? 17:51:37 Yes, my computer is connecting to the kernal.eu server, federating with monero.social, etc. 17:51:38 my firewall is allowing connections, etc. 17:51:44 Running things, not showing messages 17:51:49 Taking up my resources 17:52:13 showing messages is running something and does take up resources 17:52:31 No need for this pedantry 17:52:50 You understand my point, I am not intending to allow someone to send data from my computer to theirs without my consent 17:53:09 It isn't software that I consented to running on my computer/network 17:54:19 One who runs a botnet is stealing other peoples' resources, regardless if they are being utilized or not 17:55:20 doesn't seem like stealing in the traditional sense 17:55:36 Sure, not in the traditional sense 17:55:41 Nothing digital is traditional 17:55:56 Siphoning resources without the consent of the user 17:56:04 I cannot be any clearer 17:57:12 Yes it is. Someone is burning energy and you're footing the bill. And that's on top of the stolen computational resources 17:57:59 Pedantry or not, botnets are stealing, end of story 18:01:49 are you not burning energy displaying this message? yes this is pedantic but I fail to see a categorical difference 18:02:02 But I am consenting to the software that is running 18:02:06 Element/whatever 18:02:13 To connect to kernal.eu server and receive messages 18:02:46 A network reliant on botnets is a poorly made network, regardless of the complexity or use of the network 18:02:48 If I don't want messages from you I can ignore (block) you/close my client/disconnect my computer from my network/block kernal.eu server in my firewall/go live in a cave 18:03:31 If Monero is just one “automated Windows security update” away from losing a *large* portion of its hashrate, that is a very bad issue 18:04:05 Even if 90% of botnets infect EOL windows, Windows could still be coerced into running another one 18:04:29 to be clear I'm not advocating for anyone to start a botnet to mine XMR 18:04:45 This is *excluding* the numerous moral issues that botnets give 18:04:46 I don't think we got that impression 18:05:19 And I’m not saying that botnets should be banned (impossible to enforce without harming normal participants) 18:05:20 I can't do anything about botnets on Monero and I won't do anything. What I am trying to clarify here is that a botnet is stealing 18:06:32 It would be a good idea to have RandomX be further optimized against botnets 18:06:32 It is already quite optimized for this, but it should probably be even more optimized 18:07:24 only to the extent that botnets are a 51% risk 18:08:30 How? The idea is 1 cpu = 1 vote 18:09:40 That top-tier Threadripper build would only earn (in gross) less than 2$ per day. 18:09:42 An older generation Threadripper build (3990x) would earn less than a dollar. 18:09:44 I’d be shocked to learn that more than 51% of the hashrate *isnt* botnets. 18:10:06 1 *hash* is one vote 18:10:14 the question is whether it's 1 single botnet 18:11:47 this is the logic that led to ASICs 18:12:38 Likely not a single one 18:12:38 But if a significant number of botnets use the same platform/same escalation exploit, then if said exploit were patched or reversed, then all of those botnets would disappear 18:13:53 sure, but why would we want to disappear all that hashrate now? it would have the same effect as the exploit being patched 18:15:50 We can control the hashrate spread to change what type of effort is valued (ie when we moved away from ASICS). We can’t control how many cpus someone has, or how they got access to them. 18:15:52 Which is more valuable to the network, a single miner that will consistently mine and connect at a single unmoving point, or a multitude of exceedingly inefficient, chaotic, and downright illegal nodes, *all of which are still controlled by a centralized authority, just like a single ASIC* 18:16:43 Their hashrate wouldn’t disappear, that simply isn’t possible. Their hashrate would drop. Either that or the hashrate of non-botnets would increase 18:16:46 if someone has several cpus that's still 1 cpu = 1 vote 18:17:54 how do you distinguish between a botnet of 10000 computers and 10000 individual computers running of their own volition 18:19:25 no idea, you're the one who suggested editing randomx to distinguish between them 18:19:28 The only real way would be to see how much of the computer’s compute is getting used by the miner 18:19:30 If it is a lot of it, then it’s likely to be a legitimate user (a botnet can only 100% a computer for so long before the owner catches on) 18:19:58 Oop hold on I think I just fixed my Qubes install 18:21:25 what was broken 18:23:52 you're describing how centralized pools work, I'd agree with any changes to the pow that disadvantages pools, but framing it as a problem with botnets only is missing the point 18:24:42 "running of their own volition" = proposing blocks, as opposed to being given blocks to mine 18:51:41 using botnets to mine is better because then you won't have to pay anything because you can just use other people's computers to mine. Also it's better bec ause then you'll have multiple devices to mine with which is better 18:51:52 I disagree 18:55:36 using botnets to mine is better because then you won't have to pay anything because you can just use other people's computers to mine. Also it's better bec ause then you'll have multiple devices to mine with so it's better 18:59:56 minind monero on his computer sounds like a nice revenge for your ex) 19:24:06 Recently I’ve been discussing using proof of burn for an application in an exchange. 19:24:08 What I’m wondering is what protections are there for monero burning attacks when the Market Cap of monero is small? 19:24:10 I’m aware that tail emission exists but is it sufficient? 19:25:57 burning attacks? 19:28:32 proposal: we consider any monero sent to my wallet as burned. 19:29:08 You can send monero to an address nobody likely owns. Or you can just throw away your private key. 19:29:10 If you go out of your way to buy a lot of monero so you can reduce the supply, it can reach a the point that it starts to become a problem. 19:29:36 sounds like a donation to everyone 19:30:48 Yes until there’s not enough monero for a market heavily using monero to function 19:31:12 the UK government claim to do this with XMR already, but monero is too divisible for it to make a difference 19:31:56 even in the extreme case when they buy and destroy the entire supply, more would just be created by tail emission and we're back to square 1 19:32:10 They burn what they confiscate but I haven’t heard that they’ve been buying it up to burn it 19:32:24 thats what I meant 19:33:13 I’m asking if tail emission is sufficient or adaptable to supply or tx rate in anyway? 19:34:55 I don't understand the problem 19:35:42 tail emission of monero more or less mimics gold mining, about 1% yearly output of total supply, unless they start mining gold on asteroids 19:35:43 hardhatter: Monero has four more decimal places than bitcoin IIRC. I don't understand how a mass burning attack is supposed to work. 19:36:24 if you sell your moneros and they get burned, why complain? if you have any left, they are now worth more 19:36:48 if anything, it would be more damaging if uk gov DIDN'T burn the coins, so they can threaten to crash the price or something 19:40:36 Well if you believe that many decimal places enough to make successful burning attacks infeasible, then I guess that answers my question to an extent. 19:40:38 If it happen to be the case that the number of decimal places wasn’t adequate or that it turned out that relying on having many decimal places turned out to not be protective as we thought, would we have an clear strategy to address the problem? 19:42:24 every 2 minutes 0.6 xmr = 600000000000 atomic units are created 19:42:58 to follow up with that, I’m guessing a decentralized exchanges that burns monero as a form of a fee, likely won’t burn enough monero for it to be a serious concern? 19:43:00 I think it's fair to say we won't run out of decimal places, even if 1 xmr becomes really expensive 19:43:13 to follow up with that, I’m guessing a decentralized exchange that burns monero as a form of a fee, likely won’t burn enough monero for it to be a serious concern? 19:43:58 do you mean failed 2-of-2 trades with no arbitrator? 19:45:45 I'm not aware of any reason you'd need to burn xmr in the cooperative/successful case, can you explain how this exchange works? 19:46:38 No I’ve been discussing using burnt monero as a form of a advertisement fee to post on a decentralized exchange. Proof of burnt monero is used to determine if an ad is allowed to be posted on the exchange network for some duration 19:47:03 This is to mitigate advertisement spam 19:48:13 how do the advertisements get relayed? 19:52:12 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> +1 19:52:20 A small fraction of Nodes get contacted with proof of burn by the ad poster then the nodes propagate to all of the rest of the nodes the proof. All nodes that receive the proof will post the ad. And the end user can either verify the proofs themselves or use node consensus to determine legitimacy . Preferably verify it themselves 19:52:44 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> Is that saves somewhere? My OS basically reinstalls itself cleanly on each reboot so i want to persist that directory 19:52:51 <5m5z3q888q5prxkg:chat.lightnovel-dungeon.de> So that it doesn't have to sync every reboot 19:53:07 should be in the same directory as your keys 19:53:11 for example, a wallet `mywallet.keys` 19:53:12 wallet cache file `mywallet` 19:55:08 instead of burning the monero, maybe you could pay it to people running nodes as an incentive, although I have no idea how you would implement that 19:55:35 No, it should be burned 19:55:44 That is the only way to ensure 19:57:08 too much burnt coins can cause fud that xmr is overpriced, maybe spend them as unusually high transaction fees? 19:58:11 might confuse fee prediction algos, and might cause your exchange to stand out on chain though 19:58:15 That leads to problems with decentralization. I came up with an alternative that avoids burning but its more complicated. It also has more potential to have an exploit be discovered in theory although it’s not realistically exploitable rn 19:58:32 Could you share the method? 19:58:43 yes explain 20:00:54 ASICs exist because power efficiency is the key to mining profitability. As the name says: they are Application Specific Integrated Circuits. They are designed to do one thing and do it well. 20:00:54 For other applications, this is a good thing. But when it comes to crypto-mining and decentralization, they have negative side-effects which are overall harmful to the system. 20:00:56 That's why Cryptonight and later RandomX were designed: the overall power consumption stays the same, but everyone is on a level playing field because common consumer hardware is the best (and only) choice for everyone 20:01:27 I am aware 20:04:57 f 20:04:58 hj 20:05:02 e 20:05:21 y 20:05:23 r 20:05:25 t 20:05:30 e 20:05:32 g 20:05:34 g 20:05:36 d 20:05:38 So being a thief and a literal parasite is better than being an honest person? Putting thieves and parasites in charge of a global economic system is good for its health and prosperity? 20:05:40 And here I thought that Monero was supposed to replace that kind of shit, not become it 20:05:42 f 20:05:44 fg 20:05:46 s 20:05:48 r 20:05:50 e 20:05:52 t 20:05:54 r 20:05:56 e 20:05:58 s 20:06:00 h 20:06:02 f 20:06:04 g 20:06:06 d 20:06:11 g 20:06:15 f 20:06:20 r 20:06:25 g 20:06:28 nh 20:06:34 s 20:06:41 f 20:06:43 g 20:06:48 stop it 20:06:50 d 20:06:55