00:01:14 Block chains are cool and all, but have you heard of merkle trees (/s) 00:03:47 (Block chains are just special-case Merkle trees) 00:03:51 Block chains are cool and all, but have you heard of Merkle trees (/s) 00:08:49 I wouldn't exactly call them special-case Merkle trees 00:11:49 Meh, it's close enough for a joke. What's the reason, though ? 00:12:54 I mean, what's the reason for calling them that? 01:12:14 I’d personally call them a salad since they are a mixture of multiple things 01:12:21 Either that or a soup 07:29:32 I was wondering the other day about those 😅 for their potential use in a zero-knowledge scheme in which each leaf would entail an IOU and a custodian service generates a reserve_proof together with the merkel header as message (which adds up all the claims). does something like this make sense? 08:09:13 I was wondering about those the other day 😅 for their potential use in a zero-knowledge scheme in which each leaf would entail an IOU and a custodian service generates a reserve\_proof together with the merkel header as message (which adds up all the claims). does something like this make sense? 10:42:33 I was wondering about those the other day 😅 for their potential use in a zero-knowledge scheme in which each leaf would entail an IOU and a custodian service generates a reserve\_proof together with the merkle header as message (which adds up all the claims). does something like this make sense? 11:19:08 pretty sure this is how big exchanges do their reserve proofs: https://www.kraken.com/proof-of-reserves 11:25:51 <3​21bob321:monero.social> I thought they used darts and dart board with numbers. 11:28:27 I still think they use darts and dart boards with numbers 11:29:59 ah nice, thanks for the link. yeah looks very common practice 11:47:10 this is gonna by offtopic but just to mention quickly, it's crazy and mysterious how that's done in TradFi ... the current understanding seems to be that there is nothing like that and assets are used as collateral by 3rd parties unbeknownst to the holder. As a consequence, it seems if a broker goes insolvent, you are reimbursed only pro-rata after systemic players got their share first 11:47:12 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldNdW3_00gI&t=188s 11:47:14 first 3 minutes after the timestamp summarises that (3.08 - 6.08). really unnerving 13:09:45 Hello, is it normal to not be able to leech from peers for hours when syncing the blockchain? 13:10:18 I've been downloading the prune blockchain for two days and sometimes i just do not get any peers for 4 to 8 hours 13:10:35 I use a VPN with port fowarding set up properly 13:45:19 how fast is your internet 18:42:27 I had the privilege of recently being featured on the Monerotopia podcast with Douglas Tuman, the mastermind behind XMR Bazaar. 18:42:28 We explore the differences between the MCEP and the MCEPm while also outlining tips to improve your marketplace listings. 18:42:30 Finally, I outline my personal views of Monero mass adoption. 18:42:32 You can see our full discussion here: https://www.youtube.com/live/-viaPgptV5k?t=3343s 18:42:34 In short here are some key takeaways to improve your listings: 18:42:36 - Headline of 6 words 18:42:38 - Headline answers the question “what is it” 18:42:40 - Clear image correctly cropped 18:42:42 - Description outlining problem that you solve 18:42:44 - Description with short paragraphs (no more than 3 sentences) 18:42:46 - Offer a discount 18:43:49 I watched :D 18:43:59 What are the current fees for a monero transaction? I mean from one wallet to another wallet using the most standard transaction type. 18:44:09 Saw some services selling prepaid cards for Monero... I wonder if there are places that just refuse such cards. 18:45:35 there definitely are. those cards don't work everywhere like they claim. lots of places the purchase just won't go through 18:47:42 Has anyone used Monero recently? What are the fees? 18:49:56 negligible, less than a cent 18:58:22 m-relay really that low? That is great. How can I buy coins from miners directly instead of Binance? 18:58:27 Is that even recommended? 18:59:20 Also who should I follow on X(Twitter) for news related to Monero/Crypto?? 19:00:10 Do you have any other crypto coins? It's easier to swap crypto to XMR than national currency to XMR 19:01:43 Binance doesn't list XMR anymore, but even if they did I wouldn't recommend them 19:02:29 I wonder why Binance would delist Monero... 19:02:49 And why am I still saying Monero? I meant XMR. 19:03:30 I tend to say XMR when referring to the coin native to Monero, but they're fairly interchangeable 19:07:17 If you have BTC then you can do an atomic swap to get XMR almost immediately without trusting the other party. I think atomic swaps are also available for ETH and LTC, but I've never used them so I can't vouch 19:10:02 m-relay alright 19:10:34 what about mining monero, how much new monero is generated relative to the supply? 19:11:02 0.3 XMR per minute. Mining isn't very profitable unless you have free electricity 19:12:04 Hmm... 19:12:07 btw m-relay is not a user, it's a bridge between matrix <-> irc 19:12:52 Wut? Not a real user? 19:12:58 lol 19:13:20 It says your real name is: Matterbridge 19:13:40 What does that mean? 19:13:47 We're in a matrix room which is being relayed to IRC by a bot 19:15:09 You mean #monero is that "matric room"? 19:15:34 What exactly is a metrix room? Something like the matrix in the movie matrix? 19:15:57 I am unsure if you are trying to reference the movie to make a joke, or if you are trying to inform me about something. 19:16:00 Lol. https://matrix.org it's a chat protocol 19:16:08 lmao 19:17:06 There used to be a proper bridge but libera.chat did a libera.chat and told Matrix to kill it. 19:17:34 And what about "m-relay is not a user"? Lmao 19:18:07 It's a bot sending messages on behalf of several users 19:18:23 Ahhh! 19:18:34 Now I get it. 19:19:07 Yep. Your msg shows as a msg sent by m-relay with the content 19:19:08 ``` 19:19:10 Now I get it. 19:19:12 ``` 19:19:16 The same thing happens on our end, m-relay sends messages for all IRC users 19:19:59 Makes sense now! 19:20:26 I was wondering about that <...> but now I know. 19:23:49 Anyway if you want to buy XMR for national currency, try Haveno: https://github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases/tag/v1.0.8 19:25:02 It's not an exchange itself like Binance, but a marketplace with an arbitrator who resolves disputed trades 19:25:33 Ah, interesting! 19:25:49 As for cards - I just wonder what types of services usually deny them. And what about individual sellers? 19:26:02 Why do you guys use matrix? 19:26:36 I mean, what would I gain if I would install matrix too? 19:27:09 I haven't tried any prepaid crypto cards so I can't comment 19:27:43 Do you mean prepaid cards bought with crypto? I've tried them with cake pay and trocador, they work well 19:28:03 CTCL_FAILURE, I guess here it serves as an easy bouncer. 19:28:28 recanman, I heard about some places denying it so was wondering whether there is some logic to it. 19:29:21 Depends on the merchant, worked where I used it in the US 19:29:33 CTCL_FAILURE, I just use matrix because I'm used to it, no real reason aside from that 19:29:44 Oh, okay 19:29:52 I much prefer IRC. 19:30:00 But I do have a Matrix server too. 19:41:39 How does Monero handle spoofing? 19:41:40 For example an attacker (ALICE) can contact an XMR seller (BOB) and say he will buy 10 XMR. 19:41:40 Now the attacker lets the victim (CHARLIE) pay the seller (BOB) and since the seller received the payment he now assumes he needs to pay the attacker (ALICE) and pays the wrong person. The victim (CHARLIE) has paid but the 10 XMR are now owned by the attacker (ALICE). 19:41:41 Is there any method for CHARLIE to ensure that BOB will pay him and not ALICE? 19:44:16 m-relay? 19:45:00 Confused, why would Charlie pay without expecting anything in return? 19:45:33 From the description of it, Charlie will pay not in XMR but in FIAT? It's some social attack, XMR can't protect you from it 19:46:40 ... Ehm it is because CHARLIE wants to buy XMR. The attacker lets CHARLIE pay and waits until the seller has received the money. Since the seller only writes with the attacker he now believes that the attacker ALICE has sent the money. 19:47:23 Obviously CHARLIE expects to get the 10 XMR but the attacker claimed to be a genuine seller. 19:47:50 Are you talking about Haveno specifically? As sech1 said, Monero can't protect you from social attacks, hence why we need an arbitrator in fiat trades 19:47:53 And since BOB received the money he just pays Alice without ever writing with CHARLIE. 19:48:00 if they're dealing with FIAT <-> XMR conversion, it's a man-in-the-middle attack, and XMR won't help Charlie 19:48:10 if it's BTC <-> XMR atomic swap or something, everything will be fine 19:48:23 No m-relay it is a scam method called spoofing... 19:48:28 Which I explained. 19:48:52 And my question is how Monero protects buyers from spoofing attacks. 19:49:30 Only atomic swaps can give you a mathematical guarantee for this 19:49:37 Note that this attack effectively allows any scammer to intercept any genuine trade. 19:49:47 FIAT <-> XMR conversion requires reputation system and arbitrators 19:51:08 Well sure, if I make a fake Binance website I can refuse to let people withdraw their XMR, but this sort of scam applies to literally any goods and services 19:51:18 NO 19:51:27 That has nothing to do with that scam method... 19:51:42 Maybe I did not explain the steps well enough: 19:53:38 Yes, Alice talks with both Bob and Charlie and pretends to be them, and runs away with money. This is why exchanges like LocalMonero and Haveno hold money before both sides confirm the trade succeeded, and they have arbitrators. 19:54:12 1. Attacker contacts a "genuine buyer" & a "genuine seller" 19:54:12 2. Attacker negotiates the terms 19:54:13 3. Attacker lets buyer pay 19:54:13 4. Attacker asks if the seller got the money 19:54:14 5. Attacker lets the seller pay to his own address 19:54:14 6. Attacker receives the money 19:54:15 7. "Genuine buyer" has paid but never receives XMR 19:54:17 It's not directly a Monero problem unless we're talking about atomic swaps 19:55:04 My question is what Monero does to prevent spoofing attacks. 19:55:32 It's a social attack involving people on an exchange, not an attack on Monero. Monero does nothing and doesn't have to do anything about it. 19:55:40 If the attacker can convince the victim that he's a reputable XMR seller, then that's the problem 19:55:55 So how would you sech1 make sure you won't get scammed like that? 19:55:55 It doesn't that is up to you. Monero transaction outputs are just ed25519 points. That's what authorizes the spending of that money. It's up to you to put those funds in the right ed25519 point 19:55:56 Charlie and Bob should double check XMR addresses they pay to 19:56:04 and use a secure trade 19:56:17 where the money is held by arbitrator until both side confirm success 19:56:23 have you never traded on LocalMonero? 19:56:34 Get your XMR address from them in person or over a trusted channel 19:56:37 LocalMonero? First time I read this name. 19:56:48 LocalBitcoins then? 19:56:58 Both exchanges are the past though 19:57:02 So basically to buy XMR you have to rely on a trusted channel. 19:57:06 Haveno is the new thing now 19:57:12 What about that is decentralized? 19:57:18 You can buy XMR with an atomic swap 19:57:40 I am not criticizing the system, just wondering about the principles with an open mind. 19:57:40 excuse me sir, do you have a minute for our lord and savior haveno DEX ? https://blog.nihilism.network/servers/haveno-client-f2f/index.html 19:57:41 then you're guaranteed mathematically either to walk away with your XMR, or with your BTC (minus fees) 19:57:52 centralised exchanges are a thing of the past now ! 19:58:10 There's no 1 single trusted channel, who you trust is up to you. 19:58:20 sech1 yes, as long as you are using a swap you are right. 19:58:46 on haveno you can do direct fiat -> xmr trades btw, no need to go through b*tcoin 19:59:12 Is b*tcoin cencored here? Why the * 20:00:03 Every single cryptographic communication problem relies on you getting keys from your counterparty over a trusted channel, Monero is no different. Have you thought about how HTTPS avoids man-in-the-middle attacks over the internet? It's because a root certificate was placed in your OS's filesystem when you installed your OS or browser etc. That's used to create 'trusted' channels. 20:00:04 Even with symmetric encryption, you have to get the password from somewhere, and you sure shouldn't send it over the wire in plaintext 20:01:14 So I take from this the best ways to buy XMR are: 20:01:14 - LocalBitcoins 20:01:15 - Haveno 20:01:15 Anything else? 20:01:34 LocalBitcoins doesn't exist anymore 20:01:41 Huh? WHy? 20:01:52 @ctcl check kycnot.me if you want to know your options 20:02:36 What is kycnot.me ? 20:02:58 its a list of services / exchanges that allow you to buy monero without any KYC procedures 20:03:40 haveno is listed there for instance, but the other options force you to go through bitcoin to trade fiat -> xmr, which isn't ideal imo 20:04:14 (ie: bisq, robosats) 20:04:45 Yeah, you can also add Bisq to the list, but it's not ideal since you need to go from fiat->BTC->XMR 20:05:26 thats the reason haveno got forked from bisq in the first place too, to make sure monero is at the center of the transactions instead of bitcoin 20:06:35 Ah great! 20:07:02 Any other way to go from fiat -> XMR -> fiat? WIthout KYC 20:07:18 Or at least from fiat -> XMT -> BTC 20:07:34 well, the only other way is you know someone that sells monero and you ask them directly, otherwise theres haveno 20:08:04 Hmm... 20:08:13 afaik the other options on kycnot.me are all of the fiat -> btc -> scheme 20:08:29 (i checked bisq, and robosats a few weeks ago) 20:08:41 afaik the other options on kycnot.me are all of the fiat -> btc -> xmr scheme 20:10:12 - https://kycnot.me/ 20:10:13 - Haveno 20:10:13 - Knowing someone personally 20:10:14 Any other way to XMR without KYC? 20:10:14 Also good ways to sell XMR? 20:11:48 Just asking to double check if someone has more ideas. 20:13:22 In any fiat<->XMR trade you'll need to trust someone at least a little (or have that person trust you), so that trust has to come from either the law (like in KYC exchanges) or from reputation and repeated dealings (arbitrators on Haveno, Bisq, etc) 20:14:19 You can probably buy XMR on dodgy telegram channels, but you'll get scammed at some point 20:16:31 WHAT IF THERE WAS A COIN that would combine owing coins and reputation? 20:16:52 A reputation system coin. 20:17:01 Why does that not exist? 20:17:05 To hard to implement? 20:17:32 Not sure how something like that would be implemented 20:17:34 telegram is a KYC platform anyway 20:18:09 Keep in mind that cryptos can be swapped without trust, so any way to get BTC without KYC is also a way to get XMR without KYC 20:18:21 Not for fiat. 20:19:35 But ! if you go through BTC to get your xmr you loose value in the process 20:19:47 That is even worse! 20:23:37 A surprising number of things can be bought and sold directly or indirectly for XMR, see: 20:23:38 https://monerica.com/ 20:23:40 https://xmrbazaar.com/ 20:23:42 https://moneromarket.io/ 20:23:59 Awesome! Now I get all the good links, do you have more? 20:26:03 https://monerosupplies.com/ lol 20:28:50 It would be great to have a list of trusted XMR addresses, that are available to contact to buy or sell. 20:28:51 1. Buyer sends message request via the network to the seller. 20:28:51 2. Buyer pays a fee for the request. 20:28:52 3. Buyer establishes connection with the seller if that seller wants to do so. 20:28:52 4. Buyer & seller write directly using their private keys. 20:28:53 5. If something goes wrong the buyer can prove to other trusted sellers what happened. 20:28:53 6. If the majority of the trusted sellers sign the transaction they can delete funds of a trusted seller. 20:29:12 Often the best way to "sell" XMR is to spend it. I've heard you can spend it on anything on Amazon here, although I'm not sure about the privacy implications: https://monezon.com/ 20:29:22 This would at least remove the necessity of any service or risk of a spoofing scam. 20:30:45 interesting m-relay, thanks 20:37:24 @CTCL_FAILURE: look at zero to monero https://web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf chapter 4 for a great read on how stealth addresses work 20:39:15 Thanks 21:00:08 Hello, world 😊 21:00:50 Hello 👋 21:03:02 welcome 21:09:14 oh it's 21:09:39 oh it will exist very soon. It's called CBDC. 21:10:35 oh it will exist very soon. It's called CBDC with inbuilt social credit score/reputation. 21:15:17 I am not talking about CBDC, how much more KYC can it get? 21:15:18 Plus I believe everyone should reject these kinds of centralized and highly controlling currencies. 21:15:26 I’ve used monezon, both as an executor and as a buyer, and it’s legit. They use amazon wishlists. A buyer will put items they want to buy as a public wishlist and send that link, and the executor will buy the items in the wishlist. 21:15:26 After the executor buys it and the seller confirms they got the order, the monero will be sent to the executor 21:15:28 I did have a case as an executor of a buyer not confirming he got the item even though it was delivered already, but after a couple days i dm’d the guy that ran monezon to release the funds to me and it went through. 21:16:22 Nice 21:16:34 Your address as a buyer is hidden from the executor, BTW 21:16:49 That is great! 21:17:05 how does that work? 21:18:25 IDK 21:18:39 Maybe the monezon has an explaination. 21:18:54 When buying up the items in an amazon wishlist, amazon itself hides the address from the executor 21:19:44 are there executors for EU as well? or is it entirely US based amazon? 21:20:12 As an executor i bought items from amazon canada haha 21:20:14 I see, so monezon has an arbitrator? Is it custodial or does it use multi sig? 21:21:24 Not sure about eu 21:23:34 Arbitrators, i’m not sure, i just dm’d the guy that made when the buyer didn’t confirm he got the items after a couple days 21:23:36 Multi-sig, idk. I just got funds sent to the address i put in, so does that make it custodial? 21:23:59 The arbitrator being the site owner 21:24:34 If it's fully web based then I think that rules out multi sig 21:24:53 It’s been a while since i’ve looked at the interface and i vaguely remember the option as a buyer to call in an arbitrator 21:26:20 Overall a cool experiment