01:00:58 BlueHealer: not any more than cash 01:01:41 with chaumian cash you can still have taxes and prevent money laundering in the same way that you do with cash 01:05:09 This isn't the purpose of the tail emission and we should absolutely not be doing coin weighted votes on anything important 01:07:02 The purpose of tail emission is to keep an adequate supply of the currency for practical use and replacing lost coins is part of that? 01:08:28 1 xmr = 10^12 atomic units, we're not running out of coins any time soon 01:10:41 Currently it’s the devs who make decisions. Maybe we can keep it that way but weighting it by stakeholders especially when they can’t receive the created coins without mining or through trade doesn’t sound immediately as bad to me as it seems you think it is. Having miners vote is a problem because they have an direct incentive to increase the payout. 01:12:38 Coin weighted votes = letting Binance & friends set our monetary policy 01:12:48 I don't think I need to explain why that's a bad idea 01:13:00 AIUI you need a tail emission for dynamic block sizes to work 01:13:03 because of the penalty in the formula used to expand clocks, the penalty comes from the block reward and the block reward is currently the tail emission 01:13:59 Sure but the point of a currency is to access to a fast medium of exchange when needed. And if there’s not enough supply then eventually it would become more costly to use this currency over another. It’s not optimal to just ignore the need for more currency when there’s a demand for it without creating an excessive amount that will lead to inflation 01:16:43 nioCat: yes, and because relying on fees alone for security incentivizes reorgs, technically makes the coin permissioned and it's unclear whether it would keep a high enough security budget 01:26:07 Okay so let’s say binance is the majority stake holder rn and votes to massively inflate the currency. Then what? They’d just lose their share and have to buy it back at a loss. What if they greatly reduce the rate of coin creation? The currency loses utility from a lack of supply and nobody really benefits aside from an initial increase in valuation before a competitive fork 01:26:09 with a voter base that votes more optimally to stabilize the supply takes marketshare 01:27:45 Sure but the point of a currency is to have access to a fast medium of exchange when needed. And if there’s not enough supply then eventually it would become more costly to use this currency over another. It’s not optimal to just ignore the need for more currency when there’s a demand for it without creating an excessive amount that will lead to inflation 01:30:36 then the damage is already done, but they might gain even more vote share because some mining pools dump their xmr on exchanges to pay out in btc 01:34:34 also devs don't make the decisions, this isn't eth, nobody does 01:36:04 I mean the developers of monero determined the protocol and we just accept that 01:36:27 determined it once and now it's fixed forever at 0.3 new xmr/min 01:42:24 I mean if a change was proposed, generally we’d have other devs confer with each other then push the change. Then the community may or may not decide to go along with it, although we typically expect them to. It’s not dictated by them but it’s primarily influenced by them. There isn’t a streamlined protocol for having the stakeholders be the primary influence for certain c 01:42:25 ategories of decisions. 01:45:06 They “might” and I’d argue likely at a net loss in terms of stable commodity value 01:46:04 They “might” and I’d argue likely at a net loss measured relative to stable commodity value 01:46:15 causing a net loss in terms of stable commodity value is the entire reason they'd do it 01:46:39 do you think binance wants prices in xmr to be stable? lol 01:48:27 I’m saying they would take a net loss priced in a stable commodity 01:49:18 why? binance aren't the ones who actually own the xmr, they're holding it for other people 01:52:43 I mean we can practically consider that binance’s money at this point. So I don’t think it makes sense for us to call it the people their holding it for’s loss. Giving up their custody en masse has numerous vectors for indirect forms of theft 01:53:07 I mean we can practically consider that binance’s money at this point. So I don’t think it makes sense for us to call it the people they’re holding it for’s loss. Giving up their custody en masse has numerous vectors for indirect forms of theft 01:56:54 so you're saying they would vote for a low tail emission to increase the value and % of xmr they have the potential to steal? 02:28:43 Pretty much. They’d pump and dump and then be out of our hair well eventually if not the first time around. 02:28:45 They’d only be making a profit by doing that multiple times if they did that cyclically which requires a large enough amount of wealth from the next group of victims that also happens to be larger than the circular economy of users of xmr to repeatedly fall for their scam. 02:28:47 But in that case the circular economy wont be dumping into another currency and will just be burdened by the increase in volatility that they’re inducing. Which will increase the premiums on the DEX’s and make it less and less profitable for them over time. And basically the circular economy is gonna siphon that wealth their stealing through our premiums 02:30:08 So the circular economy will benefit from their shenanigans until eventually they fuck off from not being able to fool enough people for it to be profitable anymore 02:31:29 Pretty much. They’d pump and dump and then be out of our hair well eventually if not the first time around. 02:31:31 They’d only be making a profit by doing that multiple times if they did that cyclically which requires a large enough amount of wealth from the next group of victims that also happens to be larger than the circular economy of users of xmr to repeatedly fall for their scam. 02:31:33 But in that case the circular economy wont be dumping into another currency and will just be burdened by the increase in volatility that they’re inducing. Which will increase the premiums on the DEX’s and make it less and less profitable for them over time. And basically the circular economy is gonna siphon that wealth they’re stealing through our premiums 03:23:00 Look at any pos chain 😂 03:23:27 Look at particl 03:24:42 Particl voted to make 50% emission go to the treasury and the emission %. This leads towards total control of the voting if the treasury was to use those coins to vote 03:25:14 And increase* the emission 03:26:06 The only way to have more voting power than those who are given 50% of all newly minted coins, is to but them 03:26:21 This is the same logic why eth went POS before the premine hit sub 50% 03:28:27 I proposed something to Firo where stakers would only be able rewarded for staking as much as the pow they can produce. No "proof of pow" then no proof of stake 03:29:16 And only being able to stake virgin coins 03:42:55 Although my argument effectively still applies for PoS, it’s a critical difference though that miners get the reward instead of stakers. This further reduces the incentive for them to add an excessive amount of supply since it’s even less profitable if the miners are getting the reward, even if they start mining themselves it’ll cost them more than if they were only staking 04:41:35 If profitability drops, often difficulty follows. selfish miners would want profitability to fall. Greater total % of new emissions leads to greater control of the supply, leads to price manipulation 04:43:29 A lot of virgin bitcoin is sold directly to coinbase etc. 04:43:31 miners (and the fed) dont care about inflation, as long as they are gaining a larger % of total supply as a result 05:11:10 whats a virgin bitcoin ? 05:11:48 freshly mined 05:11:56 i c 05:12:34 binance has btc pools too for that reason 05:13:08 true, that's another thing to think about when doing coin weighted votes on emission 05:13:34 afaik no exchanges have monero mining pools, but if they did, that would really break the incentives 09:59:04 I had my first ever failed monero transaction today. How do I check why it failed? 10:04:07 What did you use to create/send the tx? Any error messages appear .. did it not fail to construct the tx, spit out a txid, and then it didnt appear in the mempool (was not broadcast)? 10:10:44 I typically use monero-cli wallet software, but this is the first time I used the monero-gui wallet. I suspect it was because after installing the wallet it had not finished sync'n the blockchain when I tried to send the payment 10:19:13 I just skimmed .bitmonero/bitmonro.log and .bitmonero/monero-wallet-gui.log and could not see anything relevant. In the wallet log I saw both the earlier transaction attempt and the one I just tried again without any errors 10:20:04 The one I just tried again has failed. Hmmm 10:21:05 It gave me a txid, waited a while without any confirmations and then came up as failed. 10:55:53 Except I wasn’t saying mining in general would be less profitable. I was saying it would be less profitable specifically for people with the majority of supply to mine compared to staking. Because it’s a smaller percentage ROI for someone who already owns most of the currency to have the coin inflated then earned back through mining. 10:55:55 Someone who mines but doesn’t own much the currency would have a better percentage ROI since the reward isn’t coming from the inflation of a large amount of coins they own. 11:06:32 " It gave me a txid, waited a while without any confirmations and then came up as failed." << youre likely connected to a bad node 11:10:24 https://matrix.to/#/#_utopia_:matrix.org 11:13:54 spam 11:14:45 Theyre everywhere 11:14:53 Hackliberty, fdroid 11:15:10 Nheko, privacyguides 11:15:44 What is everywhere? 11:15:56 spam of weird matrix rooms 11:16:16 🍯 11:17:04 <3​21bob321:monero.social> Rip cme-ban now 14:35:28 its been like 26 hours for me and the domain is still not active 14:35:34 are you sure it's not a scam? 14:36:15 which registrar ? 14:36:52 incognet.io 14:36:59 feel free to open a ticket on their end if they are too slow 14:37:28 i'll wait another day and if it's still not active then i'll open a ticket 14:42:58 Theyre slow on weekends, or so a friend has told me 14:43:58 yeah maybe that's why because i bought the domain on sunday 16:12:54 finally the domain is active 18:39:06 Hey anyone here rent servers to have nodes and mine? Or is that just dumb. If you do what hosters take XMR and let you have a mining node 19:27:12 Anybody know how much larger the txs will get with fcmp? 19:35:44 atori question for kayabanerve 19:36:30 For two inputs? 2KB I believe. 19:36:40 (that's the amount larger, not the the new size) 19:38:10 So about a doubling. 19:39:28 Can we drop the decoy output when paying to one person only once we have fcmp to save some space? 19:41:47 Decoy output? 19:42:14 txs always have minimum 2 outputs 19:43:00 When paying one person only a decoy with 0 value is created. 19:43:43 If we don't use ring sigs anymore I don't know how useful that still is. 19:43:46 atori: Second output is typically change 19:43:50 That's a change output and it's not 0 value unless you're paying the entire value of the inputs 19:44:10 Or were you referring to inputs? 19:44:11 Yes I mean dropping those. 19:44:23 When you pay the full amount 19:44:51 Come to think of it probably that doesn't happen very often 🤔 19:58:00 It happens all the time 19:58:55 Often people (btc maxis) dont carry a balance and "send all". 21:13:00 I love proton 21:23:51 *sigh* strawberry whats wrong 21:24:07 Proton bad 21:24:13 Proton good 21:24:15 good > bad 21:24:18 checkmate loser 22:37:08 Please, How does someone prove that He owns a given UTXO ? And How can he also prove, that it is indeed unspent? 22:51:02 prove you spent output => prove you didn't spent another output in this tx 22:51:07 ig 23:06:16 https://www.themoneromoon.com/p/the-monero-moon-issue-72