00:19:33 over the years people have tried and failed to come up with fact based churning guidelines 00:19:51 the topic will be moot soon™ 00:28:58 Iirc rucknium had a CCS for researching this but didn't get the funding 00:41:27 as nioc said, monero isnt perfect and there is no perfect solutions except to fix the tech 00:41:56 Rings are poor and always have been 00:43:58 its amazing that work is being done to upgrade from ring signatures. i felt rings were easy to understand though. Like auditing the bitcoin supply. 00:47:48 But they also felt shaky 00:48:33 Intuitively rings being explained sounds like monero is just a cryptocurrency that forces you to mix your transaction with 15 other people each time (ik this is wrong just what it sounds like) 00:48:58 Which is intuitively not "fully secure" like fcmp 00:53:55 well, they are called "mixins" 00:54:05 And monero amounts didnt used to be private 00:59:10 ofrnxmr: ofc monero is perfect, it is life itself :D 00:59:21 your results may vary™ 01:00:19 Is anything perfect in life ? 01:01:14 Cat 01:01:41 Your results may vary 01:01:48 :) 01:13:46 Unlike btc, monero hard forks to improve repeatedly 01:14:24 Imagine if we decided to never hard fork 🥴 01:14:59 since it's name changed from bitmonero it has been on the path of constant improvement 01:16:47 processes and decisions were made to enable it 01:17:45 during the initial birth of shitcoins it wasn't even if it was born as one 03:05:00 Were there really no hard forks lol 03:05:11 I could've sworn they increased the block size to 2 mb 03:05:14 From 1 mb 03:05:20 Or was that included in segwit soft fork 05:30:54 we have a clear mission statement 05:31:09 bitcoin had it as well but was hijacked 05:31:53 we can learn from what happened and have to defend ours 06:05:03 Daybreak all of Ruckniums ccs proposals have been merged and funded. He also has a personal donation page where people help fund the related infra to on-going research 06:16:37 there were hardforks before 06:16:45 for example when the 06:16:50 for example when they had an inflation bug 06:17:07 and they will have to do another one for y2038 if i recall correctly 06:17:34 and imo, they will have to do another one when the emission runs out 06:18:10 theyll probably cope via demurrage 06:42:25 Mb I suck at reading the CCS website 😅 06:42:38 It was this CCS https://ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/Rucknium-Statistical-Research.html IG he just hasn't started yet 🤷‍♂️ 06:43:20 Or the fees go from 150 USD to 1500 USD 06:43:30 /hj 06:43:48 no they wont 06:46:05 Looking at bitcoin maxis dismiss the issue of high fees makes you think they wouldn't care if 10x fee actually happens though 06:48:17 How would demurrage work with sidechains 06:48:27 Sounds like they're incompatible ideas 06:48:47 nobody would pay them 06:49:18 are these sidechains currently in the room with us? 06:49:25 daybreak, BTC maxis don't rent VPS and domains with BTC $15 at a time I guess. 06:50:48 i can tell you exactly how it will play out: bitcoin will become less and less secure but since asics are getting better and better, hashrate will be always close to ATH and that will be their cope. 06:50:50 I'm really salty about bitcoin refusing to address the fee issue so in my head I'm imagining a scenario where they do the ethereum strategy of making sidexhain dependence a feature 06:52:02 And I am salty about Bitcoin beong so much more widely accepted than Monero! A Monero VPS was pretty easy to find, but it's rarer for domain registrars, especially "traditional" ones and not Njalla-like. 06:52:19 Ikr 😭😭😭 06:52:25 the thing that could make proper eth-style L2s possible, BitVM, already starts out with a mega hacky design, just like lightning 06:52:37 i doubt it will happen 06:52:51 Did the forced cex removals and looming threat of sanctions have that big of an impact on acceptance of xmr 06:53:02 i dont think so 06:53:04 Seems like it slowed it down a bit but didn't reverse the trend 06:53:27 everyone who didnt accept it before didnt do so because it wasnt on coinbase commerce 06:53:45 "Lightning is the only usable crypto for day to day transactions" - r/crypto comment with positive upvotes 06:53:49 everyone who accepted it before, still does 06:54:07 lightning is very far from useable 06:54:14 daybreak, I was shopping for registrars before this happened. 06:54:16 id rather use stellar luman lmfao 06:54:26 id rather use stellar lumen lmfao 06:54:52 So you have to keep yourself online 24/7 to use it? 06:55:00 for lightning, yes 06:55:12 alternatively, you use a custodial wallet 06:55:14 aka paypal 06:55:46 that will sanction you just like everyone else 06:56:34 https://www.theblock.co/post/264585/wallet-of-satoshi-bitcoin-lightning 06:56:37 whoopsie 06:56:53 -Major Bitcoin Lightning wallet provider quits US market 06:58:00 I swear there was a new dex somewhere that let you do monero -> btc lightning maybe that could worj 06:58:12 BTW what's wrong with the xmr accepting registrars? 06:58:21 Are they all overpriced 06:58:38 lol 07:01:35 Yeah, I am in the market for a new registrar next year (right now I have renewed Njalla), if someone finds one - plz tell me. I have seen 1984.is so far, but I don't want to have a domain at the same place I have my VPS. 07:01:39 Oooh btc fees are only $1 now what a steal! 07:02:10 Also yeah, seems like at least the XMR VPS providers are all more expensive than their card-paid counterparts, which are inaccessible to me. 07:04:44 Daybreak "IG he hasnt started yet" definitely has started, a paper was submitted and awaited review, another related paper here https://github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/blob/main/Monero-Fungibility-Defect-Classifier/pdf/classify-real-spend-with-fungibility-defects.pdf 07:05:54 That's awesome! ☺️ 07:06:54 santa isnt real, there is no easter bunny and there is no Monero DEX (aside from Haveno, BasicSapDEX and soon Serai) 07:08:36 Yeah it was one of those 07:08:43 Basicswap or serai I forgot the names 07:08:44 :( 07:11:59 Incognet.io has .coms for $15 us 07:12:40 i dont think serai will have lightning 07:12:43 Same price as namecheap (without first year discounts) 07:12:50 i also dont think basicswapdex will have lightning 07:14:55 https://servers.guru/anonymous-vps/ servers.guru selling 2 GB ram vps for 5 euros 07:15:12 Seems a bit better than some of the $10 USD for 1 GB vpses I've seen 07:15:40 Yeah, that is about the price level I have seen, 5 euros does seem unusual! 07:16:08 Incognet.io has .coms for $15 us <- I was under the impression that it was akin to Njalla - registering them to themselves. 07:16:48 Is Guru reliable? Is there some catch? I have seen Kyun like this, but someone on the chat I know had complaints about it. 07:17:26 Apparently that's the cause 😔 07:17:40 it's on kycnot.me 🤷‍♂️ 07:19:22 https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1e65dvb/comment/ldqswuz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button 07:19:36 Also @monerobull#2244 vouched for it lol 07:19:50 Yeah, I thought about transferring from Njalla to a "normal" registrar, just inputting fake info. 07:20:12 guru re-sells hetzner without the kyc bullshit 07:20:18 so yes, very good 07:31:04 <321bob321:monero.social> you have a discount code also with them?🤪 07:43:17 hello guys ! 07:45:14 i have a question for you all ! 07:46:53 what do you think ,what should be the real value of 1 xmr right now in USD terms ? 07:46:54 $250 , $300 or $500+ 07:48:28 i think it should be atleast $320 if i rely on historical trends 07:51:13 or maybe qtleast $250 07:51:20 or maybe atleast $250 07:55:42 what if we start a movement where we post the real price of monero everywhere ? 07:56:02 what if we post the real price of monero everywhere ? 07:57:37 maybe we could start a movement where everyone tweets/posts the real value of monero (i.e $250-300) and pledges not to sell below it :) 07:58:07 I totally agree with you and ready to sell you 1 XMR for $500+ 07:59:07 I don't care about the value as long as it stays stable. We don't need growth, we need to stay the same for convenience as a currency. 08:00:40 yeah but i will purchase for cheapercurrently till price reaches $500 👀 08:02:14 currently in crypto space for more people to adopt that crypto , that strategy doesn't work unfortunately. 08:02:15 I just don't like it when people want to speculate on a currency :( 08:02:55 for creating network effect , price is one main factor which attracts more people. 08:03:18 the long term goal would be stability ofcourse 08:03:33 yeah but i will purchase for cheaper currently till price reaches $500 👀 08:03:59 I just hope the price of my stash stays the same. 08:04:23 Ironically, it technically grows - my own currency tanks... 08:06:46 if you put in more than 100€, you get 10€ of free balance 08:07:42 I think Monero is actually pretty fairly valued 08:08:19 at 150-160€ i dont really buy more, only below 130€ 08:08:29 store everything in XMR ! 08:08:38 at 100€ i did a thing that is very very rare for me and took a selfie in front of the price chart 08:08:49 Why does an absolute price even matter? As long as it is convenient to use as a currency, aka isn't unstable. 08:08:50 you should keep on buying till euro200 08:08:52 and went all in with all i had access to 08:08:57 I Don't Know, How much are you willing to pay for one? 08:09:15 its a long term goal 08:09:43 maybe it will take another 20 years for crypto to realise the goal it was made for 08:10:47 i'll certainly keep accumulating till it reaches $250 08:11:11 im going to go all in right before serai 08:11:12 i'll certainly keep accumulating till it reaches $250 , hopefully within a year 08:11:21 sure 08:11:25 go all in now 08:11:27 Idk, seems like Monero is very much realizing that goal - assuming it keeps evolving in the right direction and doesn't get taken away like BTC did. 08:11:33 or do SIP 08:11:41 i dont want to risk losing value bcs of a temporary dip so im holding off till serai 08:11:53 do SIP 08:12:01 spread investment over months 08:12:09 i already did that 08:12:14 I am going to just keep a stash just big enough for current expenses plus a bit of a "cushion" in case I need to switch where I but iy. 08:12:18 i bought a lot when it dipped 100-120 08:12:18 buy it 08:12:24 this is just risk managment rn 08:12:29 the recovery is very nice 08:12:39 if it dips hard right before serai, i can buy a lot of new coins 08:12:51 Are you speculating on it or what? 08:13:02 you CANNOT predict BOTTOM 08:13:12 or if it will dip 08:13:27 or if it will dip below 170 08:13:42 I know some people who bought dollars or euro so that their savings don't depreciate, but with crypto it just feels wrong. Like you're being like those investors who only care about vessels for their finance. 08:13:51 i wouldn't say its wrong to be bullish on something for right reasons and making money of it 08:14:55 i understand your point , but thats just part of the market 08:14:59 I honestly don't care what the price is, as long as it doesn't fluctuate wildly. 08:15:11 even traditional fiat has forex trading 08:15:28 Seems like fluctuations would turn the service operators off more than a low but stable price. 08:15:34 ok noted ser ! you can hold as much you like 08:16:18 Sure, whatever. As long as adoption among services grows. 08:16:28 we could promote people to use self custody atleast and not hold any on a exchange 08:16:29 That is the only reason I am here. 08:16:45 atleast we get free from exchange manipulation of price 08:17:18 yeah, true. Given that the exchanged obeyed sanctions - I would not have been able to use them even if I wasn't concerned about KYC and its leaks. 08:17:34 i am not speculating, i am managing risk 08:17:50 that will be ensured 08:18:13 boasting about price doesn't harm the project much 08:18:58 Seriously, how are people even comfortable with this? As if your phone number, ISP and government services being KYC is not enough! They give out enough data for someone to take a microloan in your name if it ever gets sold or leaked! 08:19:19 karano, just as long as the growth is not rapid. 08:19:52 kinda funny to say that while my fiat savings are depreciating rapidly so I was in a rush to spend them... 08:20:18 i am not saying a insane value like in 1000s or about a 10x price 😅 08:21:58 some countries currency is deprecating , so its a good option for them to hold more crypto 08:22:00 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/abNbyzUbrzxSUNGBpfBTBQRd 08:22:33 i can't see any images the bull posts on matrix :/ 08:22:57 Matrix.org images are broken yea 08:23:17 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/UycHEmEyvDWzFhmXMhbSFcmB 08:23:32 Yea can see it now :) 08:24:05 yes 08:24:59 not saying unrealistic numbers saylor says to pump his bags 😅 08:25:15 $250-300 is realistic 08:26:42 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/qIyXOWpHdKImELaYUVXPpRUH 08:27:42 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/monero.social/vLcfkVXQjrkaXGuoSqbICXNB 08:28:09 this should be the absolute minimum in terms of what is realistic 08:28:56 doge would put us at $800 08:30:08 Just need Elon tweet 08:31:27 thats what i am talking about !! 😄 08:32:17 Elon won't 08:34:41 elon only tweets memecoins 08:39:14 karano, lol, that is exactly my situation) Bought a bit more Monero than my immediate hosting needs because of this. 11:42:35 Bitcoiners use lightning 11:43:06 Well they addressed it by adding Lightning and saying L1 should only be used to open/close channels and nothing else 11:43:52 Actually. With the discussion about ring signatures before. It makes me wonder how it compares to Lightning privacy wise? 11:44:33 You can work around that with watch towers 11:45:03 no they dont 11:45:15 lightning has no real privacy 11:46:05 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/KldgIdwmyDMhSfCCqqUHbXSa 11:46:27 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/lLxizSOGSvMBisNoyAFNmQBV 11:47:03 Lets check which darknet markets accept lightning 11:47:04 Zero 11:47:28 in conclusion "bitcoiners use lightning" is a false statement and pure copium 11:47:32 Some of them do accept BTC tho, which is stupid. 11:47:33 Probably need to update client / server 11:48:25 yeah but even the ones that do accept bitcoin have vastly more L1 usage 11:48:29 That’s not true. It basically onion routes your funds. 11:49:10 You’re picking one specific place that took more Monero and are basing a statement around an entire coin around it? lol 11:49:51 From what I’ve seen LN adoption with merchants that take BTC is quite good. Go to a random bar where you can pay with BTC and there’s a high chance they take lightning. 11:50:07 Haven’t had any real world place take Monero yet, unfortunately. 11:50:10 no i took 3 different places 11:50:15 that all take monero and bticoin 11:50:22 that all take monero and bitcoin 11:50:54 If you take places that are in the Monero bubble, no surprise they take more Monero than BTC, duh. 11:51:26 If you get into a coins bubble, that coin will always be the most used one there. 11:51:37 That’s true even for every shitcoin. 11:51:52 And if you're into random services rather than particular coins? 11:52:30 Random services BTC seems to dominate by a lot, with basically no adoption of anything else :( 11:52:32 I got into XMR not because I was familiar with crypto at all. 11:53:00 No, I'd say there's quite a bit of Monero adoption in VPSes. But domain registrars - ye :( 11:53:10 I got into Monero because it does what Bitcoin originally promised. 11:53:21 Thought of buying BTC inistally, like most people who go this route, but was concerned over fees. 11:53:28 Bitcoin instead decided to try to fix it via additional layers on top. 11:53:47 js: Lightning privacy is not good: "We observe that an adversary needs to control only 2% of LN nodes to learn sensitive payment information (e.g., sender, receiver and payment amount) or to carry out the wormhole attack. " https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/303 11:53:54 More papers: https://eprint.iacr.org/search?q=lightning+bitcoin+privacy 11:54:16 YES! While I only bought Monero out of necessity (card stopping working), I will keep using it even after I can use my debit card. 11:54:44 one of them being the "Europes largest bitcoin store" 11:54:53 Thx, I’ll read that later! Something like that is exactly what I was looking for. Because the previous discussion about coin control being required to have privacy on Monero did concern me. Ideally we want something where you don’t need to fully understand the technology you’re using to stay private. 11:55:11 and chainalysis spy nodes can grab a fuckton of data 11:55:27 As they did for Monero, see the video. 11:56:09