05:59:18 <m-relay> <m​mgen:monero.social> 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD, 84 EUR
06:00:35 <m-relay> <m​mgen:monero.social> Fanless mini-PC: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005003330185279.html
06:02:29 <m-relay> <m​mgen:monero.social> Fanless mini-PC: https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005003330185279.html
06:02:31 <m-relay> <m​mgen:monero.social> 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD, 84 eur
06:02:33 <m-relay> <m​mgen:monero.social> I own three of those, they've been very reliable
06:45:30 <BlueyHealer> Ah, cool to know. Here there have been certain complications with Aliexpress so not using it (long story). Plus, you have to prepay everything, and not know in advance what you are buying. I usually buy in online stores for cash and when I can inspect a thing prior to paying it off.
07:10:28 <m-relay> <m​mgen:monero.social> BlueyHealer: Prepaying is a risk for sure, but I've ordered from them many times and never been disappointed
08:02:59 <BlueyHealer> Yeah, just not used to it. Plus, apparently there is a complication with paying with card there now and not sure if they would accept a prepaid.
09:34:41 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> plowsof: Could you set an icon for this room? It keeps throwing me off 😉
09:37:33 <plowsof> the problem is that i see an icon matrix side (possible cached), i will refresh remove/add an icon to see if that helps 
09:38:01 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> plowsof: Can you try /devtools and explore room state? Do you see an m.room.avatar there?
09:38:17 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> If yes, then the room is fucked and doesn't federate properly anymore
09:38:42 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> Hm, room version is 9. That shouldn't be one with bugged federation, though.
09:40:22 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> now it has an m.room.avatar - that is empty 🙂
09:43:38 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> That worked, thx!
09:44:01 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> It's a different one than the off topic (bigger) - intentional to tell them apart?
09:45:43 <plowsof> every room is the same icon, this having no icon probably helped you find it easier
09:47:56 <orbifx> Elo
09:51:42 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> plowsof: The offtopic room has a black circle around it, this one here doesn't (which is better IMO)
09:52:21 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> Space also has the black circle
09:52:42 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/nil.im/vxwEOXrOKxWOMBlzmRWAPJVX
09:52:52 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/nil.im/ArZbSPlquGmFoUgOtobtQcsH
09:56:50 <orbifx> Any recommendations/reviews on DEXs? Bisq, et al
10:07:09 <m-relay> <b​asses:matrix.org> Haveno
11:22:26 <ofrnxmr> Basicswapdex
11:25:37 <k4r4b3y> how's bsx coming along?
11:28:22 <plowsof> bsx and unstoppable swap can compare notes 
11:31:42 <plowsof> summer has finished today, time to work everyone!
11:38:21 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Schools out for summer
12:05:09 <m-relay> <g​ingeropolous:monero.social> heya plowsof , ima discontinue pointing RPC traffic to your nodes.
12:08:15 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> Thought of the day: Monero is a stablecoin (as the price keeps being the same). It's more stable than other coins that had the intention to be a stable coin! (Looking at you, Terra USD)
12:09:38 <k4r4b3y> Monero is a stable coin with an upwards price slope over medium to long term horizons.
12:10:10 <k4r4b3y> As its users, merchants, hoarders increase their economic activity on the monero network, XMR's purchasing power increase.
12:10:37 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> I'm not so sure about that. Monero is being used as an actual currency, which makes the price stable. If the price would go up, people would hold on to their XMR rather than spending it, creating the same problem as with Bitcoin.
12:10:41 <k4r4b3y> That is preferable to having a tether-fueled ups-and-downs price craze a la btc and other shitcoins.
12:10:56 <m-relay> <j​s:nil.im> I mean, why would you spend something deflationary? Makes no sense.
12:12:14 <k4r4b3y> @j​s:nil.im check out Monero's price history in 2024.  Its value has been increasing steadily.
12:12:47 <k4r4b3y> Currencies grow stronger as more economic activity take place in their monetary network effects.
12:12:58 <k4r4b3y> Monero has this going for it.
12:13:11 <k4r4b3y> That's why its purchasing power is poised to increase.
12:13:25 <ofrnxmr> k4 good. started pushing some new updates this past week. Price fetch over tor, protection against accidentallt shutting down while swaps are in progress, updated coincurve, fixing monero dowbload failures, updated to 18.3.4 and a good list of things wip for this week
12:13:53 <k4r4b3y> ofrnxmr: sounds good!
12:13:58 <ofrnxmr> The dev branch has latest updates
12:15:04 <ofrnxmr> Also improved my basicswap-bash installer/management scripts to check if basicswap is running before performing tasks and to auto update coin binaries while updating basicswap 
12:15:25 <k4r4b3y> ofrnxmr: I haven't tried setting up the basicswapdex software locally.  But I did so for haveno-reto (tested it very briefly).  Is BSX also at a comparable stage to haveno-reto in terms of its use-readiness?
12:15:32 <ofrnxmr> We should have update notifications for basicswap and coin libraries in soon
12:16:15 <ofrnxmr> If you use my bash installer :P id argue that its very usable and works quite well
12:16:43 <k4r4b3y> Is there an appimage for BSX in the works?  I kinda remember hearing about it here and there.
12:16:51 <ofrnxmr> I'd wait a few days though, as the coincurve and new orderbook updates should be released soon
12:17:30 <ofrnxmr> Someone tried to make an appimage, but never finished. I thought about making a deb, but honestly, a lot of changes are going to be made
12:18:01 <k4r4b3y> "a deb" <--- man, I think we will have the same trouble with haveno-reto in this
12:18:24 <ofrnxmr> So better to save the packaging of a new installer for later down the road. We recently changed repo addresses, for example, to a new oeg for `basicswap`
12:18:26 <ofrnxmr> Org*
12:18:44 <k4r4b3y> I keep repeating this: users of QubesOS and TailsOS find the .deb packaging disadvantageous for their workflow.
12:19:24 <ofrnxmr> Ppl kept asking for a deb, i said "why..."
12:19:32 <k4r4b3y> TailsOS doesn't let you use `sudo apt install` and QubesOS users might not want to mess around with copying a whole new template, etc.  An AppImage just works by double-clicking on it.  Dumb-easy.
12:19:38 <ham5urg> Where can I found the stats of block rewards per block over time? I've found https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/12772/block-reward-and-transaction-fees-over-time but still would need some numbers instead of an image.
12:19:50 <ofrnxmr> id prefer appimage or flatpak
12:20:10 <k4r4b3y> "id prefer appimage or flatpak" <--- yes please.
12:20:28 <k4r4b3y> Trust me, I use feather with AppImage inside Qubes-Whonix, and it is MILES better than messing around with a .deb.
12:20:42 <ofrnxmr> Its a python app that build/runs from a venv. There is a docker install, but imo, its an utter PITA to manage your instance with
12:20:50 <k4r4b3y> You don't want to be responding to customer support queries from darkweb forums about "how do I install le deb package on tails"
12:20:59 <ofrnxmr> Manage = add coins, upgrade, enable tor etc
12:21:57 <ofrnxmr> Fkn tails lol. I added tails support to the bash installer but due to tor ddos i could never get it to finish
12:22:21 <k4r4b3y> "docker" <--- Has there been a consideration towards using podman?
12:22:36 <ofrnxmr> no
12:22:59 <ofrnxmr> Docker is pretty pointless for bsx in its current form 
12:23:15 <k4r4b3y> my uneducated opinion tells me that podman doesn't require admin privs inside its containers, while docker needs so
12:24:16 <ofrnxmr> the most simple and straight forward install is the bash install. After things are more standardized,  the docker/container approach should be improved 
12:24:21 <k4r4b3y> "Fkn tails lol. I added tails support to the bash installer but due to tor ddos i could never get it to finish" <--- what do you mean?  Why is an extragenous factor (tor ddos) messing with your local script writing process?
12:24:31 <ofrnxmr> But atm its just convoluted for no reason 
12:24:38 <ofrnxmr> Yes
12:24:57 <k4r4b3y> ofrnxmr: "After things are more standardized,  the docker/container approach should be improved" <--- and appimage should be there for users.
12:25:09 <ofrnxmr> Pip doesnt like tor. Had to.. iirc. Run torsocks for pip downloads, and then they would timeout repeatedly
12:25:20 <k4r4b3y> interesting
12:25:26 <ofrnxmr> I tried for like 8hrs straight and then gave up
12:25:53 <ofrnxmr> ddos was bad so everything kept timing out. 2kb/s 
12:26:26 <ofrnxmr> Basicswap downloads blockchain software for each enabled chain 
12:26:40 <plowsof> btw unstoppableswap dev is taking place here https://github.com/UnstoppableSwap/core 💪
12:26:58 <ofrnxmr> So it would constantly store things outside of the appimage 
12:27:03 <k4r4b3y> "Basicswap downloads blockchain software for each enabled chain" <--- yeah, fucking hell
12:27:24 <k4r4b3y> "So it would constantly store things outside of the appimage" <--- hmm... really no solution available for that?
12:28:35 <k4r4b3y> I mean, look, people WILL want to use BSX inside TailsOS, on day 1.  Your initial userbase are the bunch who use TailsOS and Qubes-Whonix.  So, you will have some pains in responding their "how do I setup this .deb in tailsOS" questions.
12:28:35 <ofrnxmr> the core software can be shipped in an appimage, but everyrhing else (wallet files, blockchains, node software etc) would be outside of the appimage in some config dir
12:28:52 <ofrnxmr> It works on qubes, whonix etc
12:28:53 <k4r4b3y> There is already a thread on forums.whonix.org about how to install the haveno-reto .deb package.
12:29:18 <ofrnxmr> tails should work, i think
12:30:06 <ofrnxmr> I personally just gave during my "testing" stage bcuz it literally maintain connections 
12:30:36 <k4r4b3y> plowsof: is unstoppableswap devs considering adding support for LTC?  BTC swaps are so like 2019s..
12:30:57 <k4r4b3y> I have stopped telling people to get btc to swap into XMR.  I tell them to get LTC for cheaper and faster onboarding into XMR.
12:32:06 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> and i tell them they only need fiat to get their xmr lol
12:32:18 <ofrnxmr> basicswap supports ltc<>xmr 👌
12:32:42 <k4r4b3y> The btc fees are already so erratic and unpredictable that by the time we spread around the guides and "propaganda" about btc to xmr onboarding, the btc on-chain fees might already be 10 bucks.
12:32:59 <k4r4b3y> And then we will have to back-track with the guides, prepare new ones, etc. etc.
12:33:34 <k4r4b3y> I think XMR should start phasing-off the its btc-crutches.
12:33:59 <k4r4b3y> btc isn't made for using
12:36:14 <k4r4b3y> One last point on this and then I will shut-up: LTC with its maturing mimblewimble tech (stack wallet is going to incorporate it into its ltc wallet), offers a cheaper, faster and more private means of onboarding (swapping) into XMR.
12:39:36 <ofrnxmr> Bsx supports ltc mweb
12:39:52 <k4r4b3y> very nice
12:39:58 <k4r4b3y> I should test it
12:40:15 <ofrnxmr> Not yet for swapping, but the in-app wallet supports using it manually to shield/unshield
12:40:26 <k4r4b3y> yes, I was thinking about shield/unshield
12:40:37 <k4r4b3y> even that is much better than retarded btc transparent chain
12:40:38 <ofrnxmr> iirc fhe next ltc release (from ltc) will enable swapping
12:40:50 <k4r4b3y> "iirc fhe next ltc release (from ltc) will enable swapping" <--- big if true
12:41:23 <ofrnxmr> Its always possible to enable an "auto shield/unshield" feature as well
12:41:28 <k4r4b3y> yep
12:41:43 <k4r4b3y> we really should put the grampa (le btc) to its bed (tomb).
12:41:58 <ofrnxmr> Yeah. Its dangerous for atomic swaps
12:42:19 <ofrnxmr> Can waste a lot of money just from the lock transactions 
12:42:43 <k4r4b3y> Yep
12:42:56 <ofrnxmr> Need to swap like minimum few thousand to avoid a high % tx fee tax
12:43:47 <k4r4b3y> Yep.  Imagine trying to explain the normies all of this 
12:43:55 <k4r4b3y> No thanks I have better things to do with my time.
12:43:57 <BlueyHealer> Yeah, so sad that random places are far more likely to accept BTC :(
12:44:09 <ofrnxmr> "i bought $20 worth of btc and got -$20?"
12:44:32 <k4r4b3y> ofrnxmr: "i bought $20 worth of btc and got -$20?" <--- fucking LOL. but it do be like that
12:46:03 <k4r4b3y> BlueyHealer: don't go to random places then.  You can find most of what you are paying with crypto online from an XMR accepting establishment.
12:46:15 <ofrnxmr> Thats y i stopped using btc
12:46:22 <k4r4b3y> ofrnxmr: +1
12:46:54 <ofrnxmr> My non custodial wallet became _literally_ unusable
12:47:11 <ofrnxmr> Feed were more than any of my "just DCA" outputs
12:47:17 <k4r4b3y> I stopped using btc when its unreasonable design around block size limit plus the transaction fees stopped making sense to me.
12:47:42 <k4r4b3y> "My non custodial wallet became _literally_ unusable" <--- yes.  It happens to everyone.
12:47:57 <ofrnxmr> So i had 2 choices: donate it ALL to miners, or wait for weeks?
12:48:05 <BlueyHealer> k4r4b3y, I meant donations to projects.
12:48:15 <ofrnxmr> I waited, then dumped 100% if it into monero
12:48:40 <k4r4b3y> BlueyHealer: if a project doesn't take your XMR, you can ask them for an XMR address, OR, keep your XMR to yourself.  You win in both cases.
12:48:53 <ofrnxmr> Projects that accept btc donation but not xmr are foolish
12:48:56 <k4r4b3y> "donate it ALL to miners, or wait for weeks?" <--- yeah I was in similar situation
12:48:57 <BlueyHealer> Domain registrars ("proper", not like Njalla) are also rare for XMR, although doable. LTC is more common.
12:49:03 <ofrnxmr> I only donate xmr
12:49:10 <ofrnxmr> Nah
12:49:20 <k4r4b3y> BlueyHealer: what do you mean "proper" domain registrar?  Just use njalla bro
12:49:32 <ofrnxmr> Orangewebsite, incognet and a few others accept xmr
12:49:43 <BlueyHealer> I do use Njalla.
12:49:45 <k4r4b3y> the domain reg industry is a scam anyways.  there are no "proper" ones in that industry.
12:50:03 <BlueyHealer> I meant where the site doesn't register the domain to themselves.
12:50:04 <k4r4b3y> Imagine paying someone for a string of ascii chars that you have no rights over.
12:50:15 <ofrnxmr> I use the `i2pd-tools ./vain` registry. 
12:50:27 <k4r4b3y> I just mine my own onion address: http://karaparawplotu233ux7adtiaqswdthdk6kiqqovgy4ldp2dseijwnad.onion/
12:50:37 <BlueyHealer> I know that at the end you're never owning it, sure. But I heard about Njalla taking away people's domains more than some others.
12:50:58 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> go for the ones that don't ask for any KYC upon signup / purcahses
12:50:59 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> go for the ones that don't ask for any KYC upon signup / purchases
12:51:01 <k4r4b3y> "about Njalla taking away people's domains more than some others" <--- sauce?  Because njalla is famous for NOT doing that.
12:51:19 <BlueyHealer> onion addresses are nice until you have to interact with the clearnet. Mail, XMPP - all unusable.
12:51:46 <BlueyHealer> k4r4b3y, okay, will search for posts when I get home.
13:01:43 <m-relay> <s​tnby:kernal.eu> Njalla is famous for all the wrong reasons. You would probably be better of with mynymbox
13:08:27 <m-relay> <s​iren:kernal.eu> k4r4b3y: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38987782
13:10:45 <k4r4b3y> @s​iren:kernal.eu yeah that looks fucked
13:12:11 <k4r4b3y> Let's hear njalla's part of the story: https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/issues/1150#issuecomment-1891049573
13:13:06 <k4r4b3y> And that should tie all of this with a bow: "We need to assume that there is no perfect registrar" https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/issues/1150#issuecomment-1910738742
13:16:17 <m-relay> <a​tori_0xbdc3ab4e:matrix.org> Pedersen commitments are what is used to prove the inputs and outputs of the tx are equal, what is the equivalent to prove an input is not double spend?
13:16:39 <m-relay> <b​asses:matrix.org> mynymbox offers anon proxy domain registeration?
13:18:09 <m-relay> <b​asses:matrix.org> never heard an issue with https://incognet.io/, also they are more "free speach" than Njalla
13:19:15 <k4r4b3y> I was a customer of incognet.  They were horribly slow with my customer support requests.
13:30:19 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> Double spend isnt mitigated by ringsignatures ?
13:47:53 <BlueyHealer> No, I was thinking about other stories, only tangentially heard about this one.
14:43:52 <orbifx> ofrnxmr, have you used only basicswapdex or anything else?
14:57:16 <ofrnxmr> For atomic swaps? I have no use for btc
14:57:41 <ofrnxmr> For fiat? bsx doesnt support fiat. Ive used haveno and localmonero 
14:59:40 <ofrnxmr> Ive installed and played with samourai and unstoppableswaps, but never used them because i hold 0 btc and wouldnt increase that unless the btc was gifted to me for free
16:04:10 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> reiya.io stopped running their charity project ?
16:04:30 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> I just have a blank page
16:47:26 <m-relay> <j​effro256:monero.social> Key images. Every output pubkey has exactly one key image which is necessarily emitted while constructing the ring signature. If you sign from the same output pubkey twice, anyone can see a duplicated key image. The node then checks that all key images from all ring signatures on the chain are unique
16:49:17 <m-relay> <j​effro256:monero.social> good read: https://web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf
18:19:32 <ofrnxmr> Is anyone running public stagenet or testnet explorers? Onion or clearnet
18:21:17 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> I have one on stagenet onion but you one want to use it because it’s in a whonix workstation
18:21:31 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> Its fucking slow
18:21:51 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> I have one on stagenet onion but you wont want to use it because it’s in a whonix workstation
18:22:06 <ofrnxmr> For docs website. Will it be online long term?
18:23:36 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> Lemme check
18:30:26 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> Corrupt LMDB, if you want to wait a few hours then fine
18:31:25 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> Resync
18:34:40 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> No rush
18:35:26 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> https://35.md.monerodevs.org/infrastructure/networks/#stagenet
18:51:10 <m-relay> <n​eromonero1024:monero.social> https://xmrchain.net/
18:51:11 <m-relay> <n​eromonero1024:monero.social> comes with both testnet/stagenet explorer
19:19:47 <orbifx> thanks ofrnxmr 
19:20:06 <orbifx> I'll have a look at haveno and localmonero
19:22:45 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Localmonero is out of business
19:23:22 <m-relay> <o​frnxmr:monero.social> Haveno-reto.com is the only active haveno network at the moment
19:23:40 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> yea haveno-reto is the ideal
19:23:46 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> yea haveno-reto is the ideal  currently
19:24:16 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> yea haveno-reto is the ideal fiat -> xmr exchange currently
19:24:18 <m-relay> <k​ewbit:matrix.org> I saw another one, I won’t link it though because I don’t want to endorse any but defo more than 1
20:04:10 <BlueyHealer> The problem is... It is not clear where you would take the initial amount needed for any trade (afaik it is like on Bisq there). It is not a problem for me personally but still.
20:30:58 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> xmrbazaar.com in the earn xmr section
20:31:13 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> plenty of options to get 0.11 xmr to be able to trade on haveno
20:31:25 <k4r4b3y> xmrbazaar gets open-sauced wen
20:32:34 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Its not open sauce ?
20:32:53 <k4r4b3y> show me the sauce!
20:33:04 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Bbq
20:33:08 <k4r4b3y> mmm
20:33:48 <k4r4b3y> no really, I heard Doug is keeping all the good stuff to himself
20:33:58 <k4r4b3y> \/sarcasm
20:41:10 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> People use it and its not open?
20:41:21 <m-relay> <3​21bob321:monero.social> Trust me bruh
20:42:21 <k4r4b3y> Stallman disappoint
21:01:09 <BlueyHealer> nihilist, I thought Bazaar was just for selling goods, didn't expect exchanging to also be there) Now hope that people would join in from our region too) I would have joined myself but I am way too anxious already.
21:01:59 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> i have an "earn xmr" offer in there for instance, where i pay monero for well written opsec blogposts
21:02:09 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> which can do the trick to get your first monero in haveno
21:02:17 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> which can do the trick to get your first monero for haveno
21:03:12 <BlueyHealer> Yeah, but that would require skills that are not universal (plus language). I meant I didn't expect regular exchanges for money)
21:06:13 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> i think theres doug that pays monero in exchange for salmon lol
21:06:47 <m-relay> <n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> (also an offer to earn xmr on xmrbazaar)
21:08:58 <m-relay> <r​avfx:xmr.mx> Id pay Monero in exchange of salmon
21:30:22 <m-relay> <d​aybreak:nitro.chat> I saw that on xmrbazaar lol
21:30:40 <m-relay> <d​aybreak:nitro.chat> I might sell to you if I ever move to Alaska
21:40:18 <m-relay> <r​avfx:xmr.mx> I stay in hispanic america, not going to go in US lol
22:52:19 <m-relay> <h​ardhatter:monero.social> You might be able to import salmon from mexico. But everything south of Mexico doesn’t have a great supply of fresh salmon. Tilapia on the other hand you can get fresh. Unless you don’t care if the salmon is frozen
23:27:43 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> From things i learnt:
23:27:45 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> Punishing bad trade experience
23:27:47 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> Making scam attempts risky for the treat actor
23:27:49 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> Avoid denial of services
23:31:08 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> Denial of service is for example taking offers of the whole orderbook and not responding to any trade
23:32:08 <m-relay> <n​ononynous:monero.social> If there was no security deposit it would be at no cost, with those we could reward people tricked in a coinlocker campaign