00:33:37 It would be good if you could see how many transactions there were in block X or Y. 00:33:37 So when you tap on the block icon on moneroconsensus.info you can see detailed information about the block, for example the number of transactions in it. 00:59:48 It would be good if you could see how many transactions there were in block X or Y. 00:59:49 So when you tap on the block icon on moneroconsensus.info you can see detailed information about the block, for example the number of transactions in a block. 01:54:42 https://matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/lDpFonHPkCdGEwJiECcHHSuv 02:02:09 where do you see that? 02:03:48 fijxu what is blurt4949 uploading 02:03:57 https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero 02:03:58 we IRC users cannot view attachments 02:04:50 Cindy: as of about 10 minutes ago, 51/100 of the most recent blocks were mined by "unknown" pools (qubic) 02:05:08 ah i see 02:05:56 isnt that just a rumor? how can you tell with a privacy coin? 02:07:43 you can tell what pool mined a block 02:11:17 i'm calling crap until blocks get orphaned 02:13:18

jetski reports ~36% on their pool atm https://explorer.jetskipool.ai/xmr-tracker.html 02:14:23

c3pool API seems to have dumped, putting extra hash into unknown on https://miningpoolstats.stream/monero 02:14:35 I like jetski ui. Need to rip it off for my ui shit 02:15:52 tbh 02:16:05 qubic was a well-needed push to completely deprecate giant mining pools 02:16:19 maybe in the next hard-fork, we can lol 02:16:57 so qubic a new russian botnet? havent heard of it until 3 days ago 02:18:55 i think we've been turning too much of a blind eye towards the problem of centralized mining 02:19:33 should i just run a miner despite it not being profitable? i think maybe I could rent a bare metal server to mine xmr 02:19:40 sure! 02:21:08 do you all think monero will hard fork? 02:21:11 or qubic will die 02:21:12 BETS ON 02:24:28 honestly even if qubic fails, a hard fork might be imminent to at least estalish more restrictions on giant centralized pools 02:24:45 doesnt matter to much for me. its meant as an exchange of value not a store of wealth like bitccoin 02:25:02

every stakeholder needs to mine or pay for honest mining for network security in a p2p project like this, relative to the stake they hold. This became a problem solely due to chronic under-investment in mining by stakeholders who are basically freeriding, and now they've found out that a huge amount of hashrate is malicious. That's a big whoops. Security budget is less than 1% 02:25:03

of market cap via emission, and it needs to probably be double that investment in security to maintain against current threat actors, which means on average, each stakeholder would need to chip in about 1% of their stake to secure it properly with PoW. It's insurance; we failed to buy enough of it for appropriate levels of indemnification. 02:25:55 we don't need more mining 02:26:17 we need more rules to be established to put giant centralized pools at a major disadvantage 02:26:20 do you all have a favourite mining pool? and back up ones? 02:26:26 p2pool 02:26:39 that should be the only realistic choice 02:27:40 Guest95: exchange of value also requires store of wealth 02:27:46 otherwise, what are you exchanging 02:29:11 what separates bitcoin from monero users is that many understand monero is more fungible and will in the long term seen as a token rather than a speculative bitcoin asset 02:29:34 but i dont deny monero will be highly valued some day if not other related privacy coins 02:30:09 we at least need to take the problem of mass consolidation of hashpower under one person's control seriously 02:33:01 ideally a coin and its energy consumption should be profitable and incentivized to run on anyones machine including the family and friends idle processors and other machines. Energy costs are just too ridiculous right now 02:33:21 well yeah 02:33:25 that's p2pool + xmrig 02:33:27 i would still mine locally at loss if I knew monero would be valued some day 02:33:41 which is what im considering 02:34:05 but the pool mining helps spread the risk right? 02:34:11 yes 02:34:13 dont want to create another qubic 02:34:19 we have p2pool which is a distributed pool 02:34:22 the other ones are centralized pools 02:34:38 including qubic 02:35:04 we just need some way to disincentivize centralized pool mining at such a scale 02:35:54

Monero, with a central miner, is not useful for its stated purpose; a single element, in this case Qubic, would effectively own the blockchain if they accumulate ~50% in a selfish mining strategy, this is a single point of failure that if reached, means you have a single entity to go after by any entity like FinCen. It also means anyone who mined for Qubic is also easily exposed 02:35:55

to RICO charges. Monero would be no better than E-gold was, and just as vulnerable legally, with the added feature of transaction obfuscation for stacking money laundering charges. 02:36:42 qubic will not actually own the blockchain for long 02:36:47 monero can hard-fork with new rules 02:36:54

*That* is the real world incentive against centralized mining and pools 02:37:07 and guess what, when that happens 02:37:13 they immediately die off 02:37:25 i know that some privacy coins like Firo allow mining on gpus while still being asic resistant. Maybe allowing mining on more devices can help? 02:37:38 monero can be mined on GPUs 02:37:43 but it's much less efficient 02:38:25 is everyone here maxi's or do they consider other coins? 02:38:46 im always open but monero seems the safest despite the hardship 02:38:58

Monero can hard fork, but the problem is not as easy to solve with software as you might like to believe. Multi-PoW or changing PoW does not defend against it. Signing blocks adds some cost for collusion but "solo" miners can still collude off chain, etc. It's not a quick fix without introduction centralization like PoS validators or just becoming a vassal to another bigger fish 02:39:20 how do you think randomX was invented 02:39:52

It is more desirable to defend your value with a decentralized mining approach, which is best served by CPU mining for hardware availability, a great choice with RandomX 02:39:53 tevador suggested upping the bandwidth requirements of mining to disincentivize centralized pools 02:40:04 like 1 MB/day/miner 02:40:04 >Guest95 02:40:05 Monero is used because of it privacy by default features 02:40:09 to 3 GB/day/miner 02:40:10 no coins offer that 02:40:11

but, the stakeholders also need to invest appropriately in network security with the right amount of hash rate 02:40:21

(relative to market cap) 02:40:55 we already have decentralized mining 02:41:02 when you talk about p2pool 02:42:01 but of course, just like how we've been hard forking to get rid of ASIC miners 02:42:09 we can hard fork to get rid of giant centralized pools 02:42:16 with more restrictions, more disadvantages 02:42:35 until they become mostly extinct and unreasonable to manage 02:44:59 m-relay many coins do not offer privacy by default but I'm starting like the Firo currency and its technical feats solving the trustless setups plagued by most Snark protocols, oddly enough suffered a 51% attack similar to Monero almost faces now. 02:46:18 Firo has masternodes 02:46:19

there's not really a magic switch for that that you can just drop in with a hard fork that I know of or have seen proposed, basically you trade one type of centralization for another in lieu of under-investment in network securing hardware, it's a bad set of options to avoid a (voluntary) ~1% additional financial overhead to secure your fully decentralized privacy coin 02:47:55

It could be that 1% is enough to push up against the liquidity constraints of Monero, that I'm not sure of, they make no small effort of containing the nexus with the greater financial system of course with KYC-AML garbage 02:48:41

after all that is a ~$36 mil/year throughput on additional security that has to pas through to energy and hardware costs 03:15:03 reading more about Masternodes, it seems if monero gets forked into a PoS it could look like Firo's chainlock masternode setup. Seems more like ideological differences leading to different design. The issue of consensus may never be solved. Threat actors are just too resourceful or organized. 03:15:03 https://firo.org/2021/01/28/chainlocks-activated-mainnet.html 03:15:25 hope monero doesnt give in too easily 04:55:58 what if we brought back gpus with a gpu mining algorithm as well as randomx for cpus? *hides* 08:14:39 <321bob321:monero.social> Just change mining payouts to be inline when monero bounties get paided out 08:45:25 hey 08:45:29 I was on vacation just came back 08:45:45 there's been some stuff going around 51% attack lately right ? 08:45:56 where can I read about this ? 09:30:25 probably this: https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/136 09:31:10 rucknium: thanks for the clarification and further explanation. 12:37:50 what does the community suggest to do? CFB planned to 51% attack monero again on August 11 12:38:13 again? 12:41:07 will people stop giving this whining bitch the attention he craves 12:41:17 he is out of money 12:41:22 he has been fud 12:41:46 he has never represented a threat to monero 12:41:53 Ye. again. He wrote on twitter 12:43:36 how can you do something again that you have never done before? 12:44:15 someone posted a screenshot of them having 51% for a short while 12:44:37 but I don't know how bad it was 12:44:39 it was not accurate as laready explained b4 12:44:54 > someone 12:44:55 who 12:44:57 > screenshot 12:44:59 . 12:45:10 this one 12:45:31 another pool was included in that unknown because their API was down 12:45:38 must have only been temporary 12:46:11 eddie, I believe you were their wen it was explained 12:46:24 no I wasn't 12:46:34 we still love you eddie 12:46:36 ok 12:47:23 imagine trying to remember everything wen you are 80yo 12:47:30 I try 12:47:31 how do you know? 12:48:26 from the people that reported it 12:48:29 anyway my point is I can understand why kufecure is concerned 12:48:43 even though the real 51% attack hasn't happened 12:50:15 don't believe everything you read and only half of what you see 12:56:01 A questions about these mining rigs for rent. When they're not rented out, there' still mining right? 12:56:29 So would in theory the hashrate be just the same for the network, just ownership temp changes? 12:57:17 the ones available are shown as not mining 12:57:23 U r too rude. I am ming on p2pool to protect the monero network. What are you doing? 12:57:47 talking to me? IRC can't see quotes 12:57:54 I am also mining 12:58:22 recently turned on my shitty old rigs as well 12:58:53 it is summer afterall and Cat is not in need of heat 12:59:00 you know what he does? 12:59:18 who is he 12:59:38 working on https://github.com/Cuprate/cuprate 12:59:55 also it is not rude when like this topic is brought every single day 13:00:03 How is that even possible? If I recall it, pools have no mandatory requirement of identifying themselves. They can just stop adding their pool ID in the block metadata. 13:00:14 Sorry thanks for your service 13:01:10 basses aka rando is that link kufecure 13:02:12 soon we will have a proper matrix irc bridge :) 13:03:49 whether or not it is mandatory the reality is that virtually all, if not all, the pools now are know 13:04:37 np tho i'm not the most entitled dev, you should rather thx the others. also sorry im effectively being rude because as rando said, this is coming every single day. Didn't meant to offend you 13:04:47 it shows that people care. Can be annoying, but I see it as something positive overall 13:05:33 Just like how Linus screams at everyone. He cares. 13:05:33 Mr bird was that cup rate link for you? 13:06:06 I see it negative overall. Because you just have to dig like 10 minutes on twitter to realize what type of person is CfB and how he is full bullshitting everytime. Seeing everyone reacting like that just show how someone with little influence can cause a panic 13:06:07 no one was screaming afaik 13:06:23 Based. 13:06:50 I know. I was just talking about linus. 13:07:00 remember the Dero thingy? all they got is chain deanon after talking crap for few days 13:08:09 i remember, but im not sure to see the point 13:08:51 I really need to be working rn lol 13:22:17 misinfo about monero from chatgpt 13:25:32 i'm not mining :( 13:26:48 nioc: you mean that qubic was taking credit for some other pool because their API was broken? 13:31:44 Cindy is gone :( 13:32:37 I believe it was from miningpoolstats 13:33:03 back to cleaning up people's sloppy work lol 13:33:17 I would rather be shitposting 13:41:03 Cindy, you have (4) unread messages in #monero Follow the link to view https://libera.monerologs.net/monero/20250810#c552652 [unsubscribe] 13:41:40 aww 13:41:47 but it was a 13:42:01 more-intentional gone, cause i was putting down my monero hat and leaving in shame 13:42:12 up until my ISP made it unintentional 13:43:50

sech1 posted this last night, showing they have ~35%: https://paste.debian.net/1390657/ This is enough hash rate to earn a positive ROI using intermittent selfish mining, explained here: https://kevinnegy.github.io/Selfish%20Mining%20Re-Examined.pdf . That means the attack can continue indefinitely, at a small relative profit to honest miners, as long as miners don't leave his p 13:43:51

ool and push it below attack profitability. The only defense against this that maintains the same level of long term decentralization we have today, is stakeholders buying and operating a larger quantity of honest hash rate. 13:44:53 is there some mf at my ISP pushing a button that says "kill Cindy's connection" 13:51:09 also btw kill-switch: that's not an attack 13:51:40 35% is not an attack, it's literally just mining monero 13:53:28

It's literally called an attack in the studies/papers for a reason - it breaks the incentive for decentralized mining if more than ~30% of your network is operated by an attacker who wants to achieve centralized mining, which is the case. 13:54:36 it's not an attack until it reaches 51% 13:55:23

tell that to the honest miners who lose more and more and more ROI to the attacker as the attack hash rate alpha (%) increases from 30% to ~50% 13:55:48

It's a snowballing disincentive to honest mining 13:56:23 then you can say all the big centralized pools are bad 13:56:28 which i will agree on you for 13:58:20

They pose the same risk, but it's not an attack until they actually attack using a selfish mining strategy. Same for the 51% attack, a pool with >51% can chose to be honest there too, but it breaks the built in incentives and requires trust that they won't perform an attack 13:58:23

Currently, the ISM attack is underway and is being demonstrated in real time 13:59:24

Figure 10(d) in the Selfish Mining paper linked above demonstrates the reward curve of the attack and the relative losses the honest miners (and all stakeholders that want decentralization) experience 14:00:33 no it's the same thing 14:00:45 it doesn't matter if they're not publicly strategizing 14:00:49 or "honest" 14:00:57 they're liabilities 14:02:03

it absolutely matters, it's fully explained in the paper. If your network has more than 30% selfish miners, the decentralization incentive of mining based on block reward is *broken* 14:02:35

it absolutely matters, it's fully explained in the paper. If your network has more than 30% selfish miners (colluding), the decentralization incentive of mining based on block reward is _broken_ 14:03:22 collusion is harder to do without a centralized pool 14:03:26

Stakeholders do and should have a vested interest in decentralization, a privacy coin without it is not a privacy coin, so there's economic incentive against selfish mining - but not algorithmically within the mining structure 14:03:45

yes 14:03:50 Pow should never be more then a means to block spam attacks. 14:03:51 Wasting to much energy, and depending on being able to waste more energy then an opponent isn't a sound security measurement in my book. 14:03:53 Blocks should be formed by a trapdoor function without that waste. 14:04:22 wtf is a trapdoor function 14:05:48 a trapdoor function requires secret data to work 14:05:56

I can tell you what they aren't, and that is a solution to the byzantine general's problem that mining solves 14:06:04 and that means you need a centralized authority to chec if blocks are valid 14:06:18 because to verify, the miners have to have access to the secret data 14:06:22 and if the miner HAVE access 14:06:27 they can solve it much much easier 14:08:21

Most crypto projects, and all of them that don't use some form of proof of work, "solved" the Byzantine fault tolerance the same way - by not solving it - and instead centralizing some control feature. Just use Fedbucks at that point. 14:09:17 proposing a trapdoor function would centralize Monero in the same way 14:09:41

its silly :) 14:09:54 Just become less dependent on botnets and we will be much more secure 14:10:26

No kingdom ever lasted for long relying on mercenaries for security 14:11:07 i'm sure botnetters do not give a shit about 51% 14:11:12 they just care about XMR rewards 14:12:52 By voluntary and forced agreements under network participants how resources should be allocated. 14:12:53 It's secured by social contracts, not cryptography. 14:13:21

indeed. The same way fiat currency works 14:13:25 Or btc/ltc whatever coin they get paid on miningrentals 14:14:07 social contracts? 14:14:13 you must be joking lol 14:14:26 who's gonna enforce those social contracts 14:14:46

just get the monopoly on violence, boom social contract secured 14:14:59

brilliant 14:15:04 "if you break the rules, i will break your kneecaps" 14:15:17 "don't bother coming back to your house for fucking up the network >:(" 14:16:00 let's replace cryptography with hitmen 14:16:18 anyone who dares attack monero, it'll be their last day 14:16:44 now that's a real proof-of-useful-work 14:17:30 And taint entire coin 14:17:44 And taint entire coin 14:18:42 It's not a singular entity and nor a singular social contract. 14:18:43 Police for example is one of many entities that takes part in enforcing those social contracts that relate to resource allocation. 14:25:06 police? 14:25:08 loooool 14:25:15 we need our own police 14:25:23 we need to kidnap people who fuck with the network 14:25:29 and do mexican cartel shit on them 14:26:01 is this selfish mining the reason monero's hash rate variability looks like the sine wave? 14:26:32

yes. specifically intermittent selfish mining, which operates as a part of difficulty adjustment 14:28:45 interesting 14:28:47 I always thought that it was because of the day-night cycle as botnets are farming the insecure office PC... but now you mention it, it sounds plausible 14:28:49 if the fluctuation was because of day-night cycle, the fluctuation would be smoother, right? 14:31:17

it would depend on the distribution of the network across the globe, but I think the hashrate you see in individual pools are varying due to mining on solar power, which also introduces a wave cycle. But riding difficulty adjustment is part of the two phase selfish mining technique as well 14:48:26 No. 14:48:27 I'm stating what is. And I will from now on not engage with you, since you're either LLM or have no intention to engage on an the actual point made. 15:05:22 i'm not an LLM 15:05:38 i'm just thinking a cryptocurrency based on social contracts sounds absolutely ridiculous 15:05:55 because it's not a cryptocurrency at that point 15:06:06 it's literally just another fed currency 15:06:18 like the dollar or euro 15:07:23 if you want a currency based on social contracts, go use the dollar 15:14:10 if you've used the internet in the past couple decades, you'll learn nobody actually cares about social contracts 15:15:08 if monero even switched to using it, it would probably be even more vulnerable, from trolls or compromised individuals 15:23:33 if you want monero to have monetary value you can't be changing the rules of the game whenever you feel like it. 15:23:35 otherwise it's simply a piece of software only used as a PoC 15:24:07 unless i'm misunderstanding what is meant by "social contract" 15:24:43 they want to replace the cryptographic protections with social contracts (with questionable enforcement) 15:27:49 how is a social contract gonna stop somebody from stealing all the XMRs and dumping it before they can realize 15:28:02 people can realize* 15:30:10 i get being socialist is hip, but like, this isn't it 15:36:51 there is a reason why places moved from pinky-promise social contracts to legal ones where they can prison you or break your kneecaps or whatever 15:37:00 because it never realistically works 15:38:14 anyway, thank you for coming to my ted talk 15:39:13 I don't think it's selfish mining. It has been this way as long as I remember. I think the answer is people mining during the day with solar. Global population, much less solar, is not evenly distributed, so you can see the day / night cycles 16:04:22

I haven't done any modelling on it and don't really have the skills to do that robustly, but I think if you have enough geographically concentrated solar mining that the DAA has a predictable periodic wave, that might make the block orphaning ISM difficulty adjusting technique more effective if you time your intermittent phase cycle appropriately. 16:05:02

So, you might get some bump in effective return relative to the base ISM ROI scenario 16:05:32 Solar miners > Botnets 🤔 16:06:04

yeah, it really would rely on having a network mining node geographic concentration to exploit as a potential additional weakness, which it may be 16:06:14 Just mine when the machine is running 16:06:25 <17lifers:matrix.org> the shadow network of miners(tm) 16:07:02 Fluffy was correct 16:08:22 But sun make heat 16:29:11 is there a kickstarter for monero 16:29:48 there is one, apparently 16:30:19 I only saw it cuz of the rottenwheel-impersonating spammer 16:30:31 oh? what is it called 16:31:26 I forgor... wasn't too keen on remembering the address of some website that I got introduced through spam lol 16:31:36 ah fair 16:33:05 https://kuno.anne.media/fundraiser/recb/ 16:33:09 found the scam post LOLOLOL 16:35:49 this is literally the gofundme of monero 16:35:52