01:31:18 im.fluffychat://chat/#monero:monero.social 01:50:33 What is happening 😊 01:50:54 I hear a lot of fud that xmr would allocate 2% to he POS for finality 01:51:22 If this is true this is the worst thing i have ever heard 01:51:38 Anyone could clear this up? 01:52:43 Why ? 01:52:43 Pos still hasn’t even been researched 01:54:13 PoS have turned into phobia after ETH ofac compliance processing. It let banks and money printer have a stake on a lot of things 01:54:38 I dont even remotely support any research into any pos 01:54:50 You can’t differentiate between xmr payments 01:55:13 No issue, you can keep mining 01:56:01 Thats not the problem exactly how can we be absolutely sure that this cannot be used as an attack vector socially or technically 01:56:19 ashven: it's finality 01:56:34 You can come and fight when it has been proposed , it’s not even researched yet 01:56:35 aka. only a layer to validate PoW blocks 01:56:50 ^^ 01:58:09 Any thoughts has been put on the alternative too? 01:58:16 what altenrative 02:01:02 Anything used for strong settlement guarantees 02:01:13 DAG-based consensus 02:02:05 how would DAG solve the problem 02:03:05 deterministic or probabilistic finality it would make it just harder 02:04:34 Final settlement would need staking anyway but anything would Nakamoto consensus would be probabilistic 02:05:20 tbh i agree with ofrnxmr's proof of pow idea 02:06:17 You can only have strong final settlement guarantee at Nakamoto consensus PoW. Either you make Acyclic Graph or increase the hashrate incentive miner 02:06:45 who's this Nakamoto guy? 02:06:53 PoS but the stakes are tied to a wallet's coinbase transactions 02:06:54 so much shit named after him wtf 02:06:57 or in other terms like 02:06:59 Tailstorm etc only make it harder but the ultimate solution is to increase the hashrate incentive for p2pool 02:07:05 1 block = 1 stake 02:07:17 PoS = Piece of Shit 02:07:21 <3 02:07:25 this gets rid of rich people and shit 02:07:38 but also, if you send someone your mined monero, it is deducted from your stakes 02:07:46 and becomes unstakable 02:07:58 (by the other person who receives it) 02:09:03 basically you earn stakes by holding onto the mined monero rewards, which only independent miners can really do, while centralized pools have to give it away to their miners or sell it for some shitcoin 02:09:12 Nakamoto consensus is the PoW rule where the valid chain is the one with the most accumulated work, and nodes extend it. The finality is probabilistic the deeper it get the less likely it has reorg or double spend 02:09:44 I think Harmony was talking about doing something similar 02:09:55 nakamoto consenus sounds absolutely useless 02:09:55 intersting concept backup up PoS with PoW 02:10:08 an attacker can shove an extremely long chain 02:10:12 that just might make it work in the real world 02:10:14 hmm 02:10:17 once they are done making up one 02:10:31 yeah too much room for fuckups 02:10:53 neglect one piece of code and lose hundreds of millions possibly 02:10:55 it's happened 02:11:27 there should be one massive PoW chain that everything is build or based on 02:11:38 ashven: what do you think of the PoS+PoW concept i just mentioned 02:11:44 not 100,000 different projects lol but whatever 02:11:47 it doesn't benefit rich people, it doesn't benefit pools 02:11:50 it just benefits miners 02:12:03 imagine if all that went into developing one thing together 02:12:03 so we just started staking only coinbases and now Q owns the PoS part 02:12:27 Q literally burns monero for qubic 02:12:45 I thought they burned VC for that 02:12:56 I think we should tie the incentive to p2pool for honest miners to grow. More incentive more money for p2pool miners = less attack surface 02:13:18 yes, it can be tied to p2pool 02:13:43 my first post was paraphrasing ofrn :D 02:14:01 nioc: if what they're saying is true, they would be burning monero for qubic 02:14:16 and not anything else, i think the bonus money comes from CFB's wallet or VC 02:14:25 With enough research we can increase the probability of them having better reward rather than PoS this would mean messing with the randomX algorithm to favor mining node and p2pool scheme 02:14:28 Is really monero going to affected?? in this current situation 02:14:55 yes, it's going to get straonger 02:15:02 also stronger 02:15:20 not affected ?? 02:15:56 yes it will be which will make it stronger 02:16:05 Our only solution is not to play their game we have stronger weapons:) to fork them off forever just like we did to asic 02:16:07 as it adapts 02:16:11 okay 02:16:14 you cannot fork them off forever 02:16:24 Lol why not 02:16:39 well, as soon as they jump on the new chain, it'll happen again :P 02:16:59 unless you have an actual solution 02:17:44 We can make the randomX favour p2pools and more money for miners on p2pool means less attack surface for 51% attack 02:17:59 how 02:18:03 Its based on human incentives 02:18:27 Are miners leaving supportxmr? 02:18:35 that sounds like a permissioned system 02:18:53 It you get to p2pool and get 1 xmr 02:18:53 While you get 0.1 xmr mining on centralized pool which one would you choose? 02:19:20 Q is giving 1.5xmr 02:19:47 sorry, I will stop now 02:19:53 P2pool is premisionless anyone can run a new p2pool node :) and make it public 02:20:15 make it public? 02:20:16 but you're saying that monero should be hard forked so that the network consenus favors people mining via p2pool 02:20:30 GN Cindy 02:20:33 which sounds like a network-level permissioned blockchain 02:20:35 night nioc!! 02:20:41 Accessible for other miners to point their miners on 02:20:56 Its port which port do you open 02:20:57 The payouts go to the address entered in p2pool 02:21:08 We doing it all the time with mining farms 02:21:35 You want people to donate hashes to you, is that it? 02:22:03 so your idea is like 02:22:17 if someone is solo-mining (not via p2pool) 02:22:26 we should reject their block regardless if it's valid 02:22:44 i doubt we can give specific rewards depending on the miner so like 02:22:50 that's the closest i can think 02:23:21 Maybe i missed the right wording i mean people can open up new p2pool all the time mining farms can rag up their machine 02:23:46 I think requiring a special pool software is crazy 02:23:49 Not other indvisuals i mean people who share the same address for operations 02:24:32 We need to incentivize p2pool mining we haven’t even done so 02:24:41 Before thinking of any pos!! 02:24:45 on a network-level? 02:24:47 merge mine tari with it 02:24:59 Exactly 02:25:09 Nope Monero independent 02:25:13 @cindy, right? Thats crazy 02:25:38 p2pool mines tari by default 02:26:00 i mean 02:26:04 I know which haven’t done so well for my mining farm 02:26:07 i literally doubt you can give seperate block rewards on some conditions 02:26:17 that would require some new fields added to the block headers 02:26:39 The random X should favour p2pool as part of its parameter 02:26:52 This is 10 times better than pos 02:26:58 no, the PoW algorithm literally does not care about how it's getting its challenges 02:27:07 you can only do it in a network-level 02:27:21 Or any other alternative that give p2pool incentive is welcome 02:27:48 this would require a hardfork with new network consenus 02:27:51 not a change to RandomX 02:28:04 not only that, it would create a permissioned environment 02:28:17 Hardfork > PoS 02:28:21 Better 02:28:22 i mean 02:28:27 you have to hard fork to add PoS to 02:28:28 too* 02:28:33 so it's literally either way 02:28:34 P2pool isnt some sort on panacea 02:28:47 I can run a centralized pool on top of my own p2pool 02:29:16 P2pool is permsionless ! 02:29:17 Qubic can creare their own p2pool, today. 02:29:33 How? 02:29:52 there are already pools mining on p2pool 02:30:44 So you saying if the all of network are p2pool the 51% attack division happens inside the p2pool? 02:31:18 I can run a private p2pool and 51% rhe network with it, yes 02:31:19 Assume 100% monero hash power is all p2pool just for illustration 02:31:42 Yes 02:32:26 Construction of block template possible on p2pool? Not the default? 02:32:53 P2pool is permissionless 02:33:05 Your node decides. If i want to selfish mine empty blocks on my personal p2pool, yes, i can 02:33:05 i'm talking about forcing all miners to mine via p2pool 02:33:35 P2pool is permissionless, but monero will be permissioned 02:33:47 Wouldn’t matter according to @orfnai 02:33:48 anyone who mines outside of p2pool will have their block rejecte 02:33:50 rejected* 02:34:28 you can try 02:34:30 But why? 02:34:36 So the question now how do you incentivize honest mining 02:34:40 if cubic create their own p2pool, they can't use p2pool to re-org monero chain, am i right? 02:34:54 Cindy, even if you bammed solomining, and only allowed p2pool.. i could run a pool on my p2pool, or i could solomine from my p2pool 02:35:13 And more correctly, why would you want to permission the XMR chain, because man, that's a great way to end up with nodes that block txns. 02:35:25 Snipa: i'm talking about what ashven is talking about :P 02:35:31 AH. 02:35:40 lol 02:35:56 P2Pool gives me nightmares still from Tari. 02:36:43 I think if we managed to incentivize honest mining behavior via reward it would be the way to protect the network 02:36:46 Wrong. They cam 02:37:13 As a precaution we can have checkpoint similar to BCH 02:38:02 In BCH, a checkpoint is a hard coded block hash at a certain height built into node software to prevent deep chain reorganizations beyond that point. 02:38:18 In BCH, a checkpoint is a hard coded block hash at a certain height built into node software to prevent deep chain reorganizations beyond that point mainly for security 02:39:34 boog and i Are pro-this idea 02:39:46 its easy to implement 02:40:00 Yeah me too 02:40:30 Mostly to attempt to prevent reorgs of unlocked txs 02:40:43 One issue at the time 02:40:55 what happens if someone reorganizes from that point 02:40:58 Perfect 02:41:00 do the nodes halt 02:41:19 He can’t basically its not allowed 02:41:23 And you spent the tx already? The tx can be invalidated 02:41:27 ah 02:41:43 i agree with this idea too 02:41:56 but also ofrnxmr's popow idea 02:42:21 Bitcoin cash people did it in case they got 51% attacked from btc 02:42:30 But never happened 02:43:43 Yeah. Bch's is much deeper though, at default 10 blocks (100mins). Ours would be 10 blocks (20mins) to coincide with the 10 block lock. 02:43:45 This is obv still proposal stage. Some ppl dont like the ideas 02:43:52 Xmr txs uses decoys, if you reorg deep enough you can invalidate txs 02:44:48 I am sure it has more consensus than POS lol 02:44:54 a rolling 10-block window, sounds very easy 02:45:18 Yes it can be a quick fix but not a permanent one 02:45:30 it just buys us time :P 02:45:52 You cant find the final solution in a rush i would agree 02:46:08 yeah, it doesnt protect against a 51%, not empty blocks, but it does prevent invalidating your unlocked outputs 02:46:10 But it would give is time to think about the alternatives 02:46:36 But it would give us time to think about the alternatives 02:46:50 Right now, i can accept a transfer, fhen spend it, then have my spend invalidated 02:48:12 But only with a 10+ deep reorg. Less than 10, i cant spend (still locked), _and_ other txs wont use me as a decoy until im unlocked 02:50:23 This could be a proposal any one wana be championing this proposal ? 02:50:46 if we could actually design it into the network 02:50:55 and also some proof of concept code with a test fork of monero 02:52:53 The design has no issue basically 02:52:55 The proof of concept wouldn’t be straightforward though like BCH anyone can correct me? 02:53:23 yeah 02:53:29 and i don't think it would require a hard-fork 02:53:39 would it? 02:53:40 I am not very familiar the Monero Code basically but i can tell :) 02:54:40 Nope it would basically hard fork is not an issue. If everyone aboard 02:54:41 If you have two options. HF vs SF 02:54:43 Hardfork usually better because its the cleanest way to implement the code 02:55:10 Softfork are ugliest from code perspective especially if you need to do something around 02:56:19 Even softfork have a lot of problems if there is a lot of disagreement new versions would be blind old version and vise versa 02:56:32 Its just an illusion that everything is intact 02:57:11 Hard forks arent pretty. I understamd what youre trying to say 02:57:12 Bitcoin Core misconceptions that hard fork is bad is funny 02:57:46 vengeful me wants PoS because it means i can slash people's funds :P 02:57:55 Not pretty but its better to implement things the right way without going around things 02:58:10 or i guess invalidate their outputs 02:58:22 its a way to _force_ things on people, sure 02:58:36 like force ppl to use 16 decoys instead of 11 02:59:24 Not if everyone onboard you cant do hard fork without consensus just like soft fork 02:59:30 But getting ppl to agree to inflate rx size for a marginal increase in privacy and much larger tx fees? Not without some level of pushback 02:59:41 We can, and we do 03:00:18 Thats what i am saying so hard fork is not bad or enforcing anything 03:00:19 Randomx wasnt universally accepted, people liked their gpus. Some wanted asics 03:00:27 ashven: of course, everyone will have to update their monero at some point 03:00:39 otherwise they'd still be relying on the old consensus 03:00:50 their monero client* 03:01:10 What is https://qpools.qubicdisciple.info/ and is it relevant to Monero? 03:01:20 ofrnxmr: there's still people thinking we should relax the algorithm for ASICs lol 03:01:39 SegWit didn’t updated for years :) until many people got out that the remaining were minorities or upgraded but i get what you mean 03:01:46 yeah. Lol. 03:02:18 imagine that future with monero lol 03:02:35 spending 12 years reverse engineering each transistor in an ASIC to figure out if there are any backdoors 03:03:06 Backdoors? Either it mines or it doesn't. 03:03:19 Mined credits are sent to some address, aren't they... 03:03:21 I am neutral idk what would be the right thing to do if you think about it 1 google or Microsoft data center could swallow the whole network by government favour or renting 03:03:55 Evolver: the ASIC could have a fuse inside that, with a crafted challenge, could kill itself 03:04:03 as a backdoor 03:04:12 for example 03:04:29 so, any CPU could 03:04:30 I am neutral idk what would be the right thing to do if you think about it 1 google or Microsoft data center could swallow the whole network by government favour or renting. You cant do this by ASIC but thats another topic 03:04:58 Cindy: I don't think the ASIC manufacturer would want to go out of business. 03:05:20 Nah 03:05:22 (I am not favoring ASICs at all for mining.) 03:05:27 lol to bitmain, making a new ASIC is a drop in the bucket for them 03:05:36 they have a dedicated department, connections to fabs 03:05:46 Who will buy from them if they kill 03:05:49 Bitmain asic mined monero @90% domination "in secret" (nobody knew the asics existed) 03:05:58 You could have Risc V CPU all day on rigs similar way but they wont knowing that people would fork 03:05:59 Evolver: they still will 03:06:10 because you'll be one of the only ASIC manufacturers 03:06:29 making your own ASIC costs like 25 million dollars or even way more than that 03:06:40 Monitor your adverary: reddit.com/r/Qubic 03:06:41 plus factoring in R&D, testing, fabs, etc. 03:06:44 *adversary 03:07:37 You know manufacturer can build thousands of miner farms via risc v cpu? Only used for mining? 03:08:05 only for it to be garbage compared to much more optimized intel or AMD CPUs 03:08:26 😅i dont think you understand what risc v is 03:08:29 RandomX relies on the fact that ASIC manufacturers cannot actually compete with CPU manufacturers :P 03:08:34 yes i know what it is 03:08:49 i'm saying ASIC manufacturers do not have the necessary resources to outperform CPU manufacturers' CPUs 03:08:50 Its more profitable than amd 03:08:54 And you still are ok with just pow 03:08:55 Less power 03:09:12 And you are still ok with just pow 03:09:24 Its best of what we human have today for decentralized mining 03:09:40 bitmain tried to make a randomX "asic" like that 03:09:51 actually a rig but whatever 03:09:59 Totally agree 100% 03:10:07 they couldn't compete with CPU manufacturers with much more resources to optimize their CPUs 03:10:19 It’s not decentralised with botnets 03:11:00 I disagree incentivize is all what matter miners are incentivized to keep the chain working or the will lose millions 03:11:01 way more decentralized than most PoW coins 03:11:27