02:20:21 hi 02:20:26 lets keep monero alive 07:44:30 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/ItFPrmuueEeoVUNrcjcBnivH.png (image.png) 07:44:35 why I can't open getmonero.org ? 07:44:54 oh well, from chromium it works 07:45:11 strange anyways, firefox doesn't work 07:46:12 maybe because it's privacy hardened? but I was able to open before 07:46:39 (privacy hardened is my firefox profile) 07:54:44 > <@pyratevevo:matrix.org> But does it affect other users ? Like if it can somehow lead to myself getting made because both my sender and the receiver of my coins have their viewkeys out in public ? 07:54:44 I guess my question was if this change can possibly affect fungibility ? Like let's assume the worst and say most transactions become transparent because most people have started having their new viewkeys available for whatever reason 07:55:38 so Monero goes from transparent wallet 1 to transparent wallet 2. Could this turn the blockchain into a swiss cheese with transparency holes ? 08:26:01 Nobody who does not hold the viewkeys in question sees anything more. So the question is more "Who all will hold viewkey collections, and how large are they?" Anyway, if your viewkey is out, make a new wallet, private again after 1 "churn". 08:26:19 I don't really understand all this alarmistic stuff ... 08:27:07 Outgoing viewkeys were proposed and scheduled for implementation 4 freaking years ago. Funny that people freak out now. Just saying. 08:27:54 And don't somebody dare to claim that it happened in the dark. If any coin does all development in the open, it's Monero 09:16:50 Guess that will keep a loophole > think the current model is just fine of course. probably someone is even using the view only feature for legit purposes! respect to them 09:44:44 The outgoing viewkeys allow much better "light wallets". You can entrust somebody running a server for that with your viewkey, or you can run such a server yourself. 09:45:05 @rbrunner7: my guess is it's the marketing + outsiders/newbies reading it and misunderstanding it 09:45:15 or rather lack of marketing, aka word of mouth 09:45:29 The outgoing viewkeys allow to check without danger whether the XMR in your paper wallet are still there 09:46:17 I for one am very hyped for it 09:47:30 Ah, maybe we found the one who "sold out" :) 09:48:10 You sold Monero dev secrets to the Zcash people and the FED for 1 million USD in XMR 09:49:55 I feel like I missed out on some drama and I'd like it to stay that way 09:54:41

they are good thing. ppl are freaking out over nothing. 09:55:16 that's what I'm saying 09:56:02

you always had the ability to share your txs and view keys with whomever you wanted. if every single person did so publicly then monero would be much more transparent. but luckily it's private by default. 10:10:56 I'm new and trying to learn. Don't mean no 'alarmist' nonsense. > <@rbrunner7> I don't really understand all this alarmistic stuff ... 10:14:06 I guess it'll also be very helpful for businesses to accepted Monero in that sense. > <@rbrunner7> The outgoing viewkeys allow much better "light wallets". You can entrust somebody running a server for that with your viewkey, or you can run such a server yourself. 10:25:37 Somebody brought the discussion to the next level: https://old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1qjqpgn/the_optional_transparency_trap_why_new_view_keys/ 10:26:00 Following this might definitely not be healthy for me :) 10:27:20 Wasn't the thing to make them complacent for them to just generate the existing wallets which don't enable such an option? 10:28:24 Didn't tevador suspect something breaks if you just set two keys in the Carrot key hierarchy to identical values to have no full view key? 10:28:27 Ugh. It was never proposed for compliance D: 10:28:59 Ah, you mean, continue to generate old wallets? Yeah, we can keep those indefinitely. 10:29:17 At least, AFAIK, it was always discussed for the functionality and auditability. Compliance discussions have always focused on selective disclosure via payment proofs as we have today. 10:29:37 Yeah, old wallets. It requires no new work for devs and avoids messing with the formulae. 10:33:08 outgoing view keys are very useful for me for fundraising stuff 10:33:50 i don't get these people losing their shits over it 10:35:15 "Currently, if a regulator or a tax authority asks you to prove your transaction history, you have a technical shield: "I can't. The protocol doesn't support it." " 10:35:38 "you can, give us your view keys and key images" 10:38:52 > suspect something breaks 10:38:52 it was confirmed, rbrunner7 10:39:30 DataHoarder: really? what breaks if you set the view balance secret to the spend key? 10:39:57 for carrot specifically 10:40:13 Apparently it also helps users with cold wallets (which is something im still reading about) to view their balances easily. Very cool. 10:41:39 DataHoarder: like what happens 10:42:13 I can't remember that part it's in one of the research rooms or community :D 11:39:34 "it was confirmed, rbrunner7" Thanks, DataHoarder, good to know. So support for old non-Carrot wallets indefinitely into the future is it. That's doable. 11:40:19 note old wallets currently cannot migrate using the PQ Turnstile design on https://gist.github.com/jeffro256/146bfd5306ea3a8a2a0ea4d660cd2243 11:49:24 I don't think any regulators care if you can't do something, only that you won't. 11:51:36 @rbrunner7:monero.social: wdym freak out _now_, I thiught we got annoying people shouting about it monthly 11:54:40 people crying about outgoing view keys when they realize the tax and regulation authorities can make them generate a list of key images and give up their incoming view keys 11:56:51 I have other questions about the technology behind Monero but I think I'm better off asking elsewhere.. 11:57:07 nah you can ask here 11:59:41 Cindy: Not the first time I see it happen. There are more complainers of complaining in the chatroom than there is actual complaining. 12:00:47 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: good luck 12:10:55 "note old wallets currently cannot migrate using the PQ Turnstile design" You mean we can't please the "Sky is falling because of viewkeys" fraction and the "Sky is falling because of quantum computers" fraction at the same time? Tough. 12:26:30 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Mainly just joking around about it still happening because of how absurd it was historically. 12:33:53 and I think doing the swap on Carrot ones did also have that issue of removing some forward secrecy against a pq opponent 12:33:56 swap -> dupe 12:35:37 DataHoarder: Post quantum protection is also included in FCMP++ ? 12:35:58 see https://github.com/jeffro256/carrot/blob/master/carrot.md#2-new-features 13:04:29 address-conditional forward secrecy 13:04:32 ? 13:04:35 that's amazing! 13:08:01 Yip. Recent normie turned monero holder here. Learning something new about the project everyday. 13:16:44 meow, hi recent monero holder 13:44:26 dmlunar: don't forget to use it too. that's what it's for 13:50:46 Regarding view keys... monero already has private and public view keys. How is this update different than the current system aside from showing spent outputs anf being able to actually prove a balance when asked. 13:50:46 Nevermind I already know the answer. 13:50:46 Stupid 13:55:47 DataHoarder: I see carrot also inherited the jamtis features of wallet "tiers", amazing 13:57:27 hooftly: "how is this different?" proceeds to state what is different after 14:00:06 Yes its a rhetorical question to show how absurd it is 14:30:50 @hooftly:matrix.org: OVKs radically simplify hot/cold and multisig wallet UX. They also make hardware wallet usage more secure 15:19:00 For sure being able to see real balances without loading private keys is a huge improvement in both safety and UX its annoying it is being portrayed as anything else 15:21:03 no how dare you 15:21:13 you're supposed to export key images from your cold wallet every time 18:59:03 https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/magic-grants-releases-monero-light-wallet-app-for-android/33246/11 18:59:08 Skylight Wallet 1.0.4 is now available for Android and Linux! 19:59:36 List of key images is a single snapshot, outgoing viewkey is forever > people crying about outgoing view keys when they realize the tax and regulation authorities can make them generate a list of key images and give up their incoming view keys 20:01:37 your authorities can continue asking for key images 20:02:15 Just use a different wallet much easier to decoy... 20:02:22 Here is my view key promise 20:02:29 Meanwhile.... 20:14:08 can i use this feature now? or is it still not released? 20:14:55 what feature 20:15:00 outgoing view keys? 20:20:57 yeah 20:21:24 no 20:21:36 i mean, you can, but only on stressnets 20:21:45 it's not deployed on mainnet yet 21:43:55 @hbs:matrix.org: Stop using that wallet if someone has forced you to give that key ? 22:16:04 zcash has "exchange addresses". OVK essentially allows an "exchange wallet". You cant just stop using when interacting with the exchange or whoever is only accepting deposits coming from it 22:16:29 Cindy: Its not on stressnet yet either 22:17:25 stressnet only handles legacy wallets, indeed, but supports native carrot stuff (just not plumbed or setup in wallet) 22:29:37 @ofrnxmr: Stop using vendors/exchanges that force you to give that key or use a separate wallet 🤔 22:36:49 Be a good boy and buy your ''bit coins'' (to then atomic swap for muh 'neros) 23:27:19 surely if OVK is this controversial the answer is to remove that feature from initial CARROT release and take time to debate it more 23:27:44 It's not a controversial feature, and it hasn't been for years 23:28:14 well looking at the reddit almost everyone is against it, so clearly at least the community is not convinced 23:29:56 You mean like 4 people? Which could also be alt accounts? 23:30:53 from Kayabenerve all the way back in 2022 when the same post was made: 23:30:58 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/unredacted.org/PNIzXNUjJkxqlUIboNvViVvp.png (clipboard.png) 23:32:37 Lws servers can pretty accurately determine spends 23:32:39 I dont have enough technical knowledge to judge whether it is damaging or not, but I do know there are a huge amount of attacks on monero and it is possible that this is one of them 23:32:55 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/unredacted.org/GjiFTEzEbMVXSIbWAXolSJpn.png (clipboard.png) 23:33:01 hey look, someone gets it 23:33:02 looking at the posts and upvotes it is clearly not just 4 people https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1qjqpgn/the_optional_transparency_trap_why_new_view_keys/ 23:33:13 I even called this on the second to last monerotopia episode 23:33:19 @tuw:matrix.org: Upvotes are easy to game 23:33:27 the new fud is gonna be people storming in about FCMP having some kind of detrimental issue 23:33:47 hilarious 23:34:08 it may be FUD from zcashers, or it may be three letter agencies trying to get this feature into monero, how are we to know 23:34:15 what 23:34:22 Lol 23:34:25 no one is complaining about FCMP, people are concerned about this one small feature of CARROT 23:34:27 view keys have been a (broken) feature for I don't know how many years now 23:35:01 the funniest part about this is, the absolute #1 fundamental rule about having a crypto wallet of any kind is that you don't give out your private key 23:35:08 So the core team is three letter agencies now? 23:35:19 monero has, put simply, 2 private keys 23:35:23 you are not supposed to give them out 23:35:36 if a gubmint can force you to give out the private view key they can force you to give out the private spend key 23:35:58 well giving out the spend key is clearly stealing your money 23:36:10 view key is just for tax compliance so they get to remain the good guys while demanding it 23:36:28 what compliance 23:36:33 and if you dont think there are government agencies attempting to infiltrate the dev team and this telegram I think that is naive 23:36:33 00:27:19 surely if OVK is this controversial the answer is to remove that feature from initial CARROT release and take time to debate it more 23:36:33 removing the feature breaks as it is currently implemented, removing security assurances 23:36:58 @tuw:matrix.org: I feel like I'm talking to one right now 23:37:03 or opens you to quantum actors 23:37:06 but that aside 23:37:27 the view key feature has existed for many years, the only thing that changes here is that it will now work as advertised 23:37:34 @tuw:matrix.org: Even if they are its easy to understand this is not that 23:37:49 Its not new 23:37:59 with previous view key you can also quite certain determine spends. 23:38:10 from change outputs, yes 23:38:17 DataHoarder: How does lws do it 23:39:01 without direct change outputs too, given you are sweeping, though post FCMP it's not doable (looking at rings) 23:39:42 I see, thanks for clarifying 23:39:54 but for example, this is likely a spend / sweep without any change back https://blocks.p2pool.observer/tx/25a0e8e919551c6fd8882c4f000f025e2f5d1ea4266a4e19c8d4cb5427c656ca 23:39:59 i dont think lws needs to guess spends - just give all outputs to user who has spend key to confirm. like background sync with view key? 23:40:09 ^ 23:40:52 you can also detect consolidations at the moment, the current view key just gives you the final bit of confirmation 23:40:55 post FCMP that will also not be doable (no rings) 23:41:41 here you could figure out who has decoys that were owned by both https://blocks.p2pool.observer/tx/8898ea6e1f5bbee5b13887c2df317d5bd6487000278900e0b516252b6a1d75b4 23:42:00 and guess if it was CCS or GF that sent the funds (it's probably GF -> CCS!) 23:42:36 note this is possible with just *view keys* without being able to find spends with a view spends key, or view outgoing 23:43:26 that just allows you to have effective wallets that work and the rest in cold storage without the ... broken UX, specially with hw wallets (which can't export key images properly!!) 23:44:08 yep. all GF contributions to CSS can be found under https://repo.getmonero.org/binaryFate , the comments are usually scraper friendly 23:44:22 CCS* shame on me 23:44:51 We could go farther: it is quite easy to make a Monero wallet in which there is only one key: incoming view, outgoing view, and spend key, all rolled into one. Why does no one clamor for this hypothetical wallet construction ? There's a reason that we don't do it: UX. It means that any scanning requires your spendkey loaded > <@intr:unredacted.org> monero has, put simply, 2 private keys 23:44:53 crowdfunding style sheets 23:45:13 ive been looking at tailwind css i am sorry 23:46:52 yeah plowsof just trying to point out that it can be done without you know, comments or disclosure 23:50:47 it is hard as a non-dev to judge exactly what is necessary, but thanks for the explanation. It is clearly A possible attack vector so my personal opinion would be to try and implement it while adding only the minimum possible transparency to the protocol. that said I trust the devs to judge it better than I could 23:51:16 After reading more about it, I think people are just misinterpreting the use case, just like I did when I first read about it. > <@tuw:matrix.org> well looking at the reddit almost everyone is against it, so clearly at least the community is not convinced 23:51:16 Its for personal use, not to be shared online or with agencies. Some government body demands it to approve of your Monero ? Who told them you have any in the first place, and why do you want your Monero's validated and checked through a legal audit ? 23:51:56 they can already make the same demands. once you stop complying and providing key images they can assume you moved funds to something else 23:52:54 right, I don't disagree. But just imagining 'binance adds moenro back!! you just have to provide your view key' and then suddenly 30% of the network is outside visible 23:53:01 that key is more of an artifact of how carrot (or jamtis, it existed/exists there too) are constructed to prevent a quantum opponent from walking the keys backward... like it is possible with the legacy wallets 23:53:10 Definitely sounds like a killer feature for groups/orgs. Maybe business too. 23:53:11 that is also not true 23:53:28 it does not disclose the network, but just your specific moves without source or destination 23:53:53 @tuw:matrix.org: if this actually happens, just make two wallets. Binance -> (wallet with view key exposed) -> (wallet) 23:53:54 you cannot fetch who the funds came from or destination with just that 23:54:25 ^ assume CEX are as public as you having the keys already out 23:54:27 exchanges are already tracking outputs and making the database 23:54:29 Keep in mind it's super easy to buy upvotes on Reddit, just a month ago I saw a comment clearly from a Zcash-adjacent user have 30 upvotes within less than an hour on a one say old post. 23:54:45 With a couple accounts and upvotes bought you can quickly produce a "controversy". 23:54:49 Also thanks for sharing the link about CARROT earlier. Brilliant stuff. > that key is more of an artifact of how carrot (or jamtis, it existed/exists there too) are constructed to prevent a quantum opponent from walking the keys backward... like it is possible with the legacy wallets 23:54:49 I especially appreciate the effort that goes into ensuring no fragmentation occurs between wallets, despite the new features. Monero is clearly being developed by smart people. 23:55:01 the enemies of monero also don't want monero to be easily usable and be confusing for users :) 23:55:03 Not saying this is what is going on currently but it's not a good faith platform. 23:55:12 selsta: I literally called it, lmao. Funny coming from the guys who pride themselves in transparency 23:55:13 one day* 23:55:35 @intr:unredacted.org: Or, don't engage with CeX and gubermints. 23:55:36 yes, of course 23:56:05 also, if you use legacy wallets: they can require you to regardless move or provide the information if they desire so 23:56:34 or go further and disclose current "spend key" with an auditor company :') 23:56:59 people already paste their seedwords in the browser for "verification" on scams so they might as well try! 23:57:51 you have syncing issue pls "connect your wallet" 😭 23:57:56 alright. got to go now but thanks for patiently assuaging my fears. hope it is just a zcash FUD. 23:58:00 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: This contracts with what I keep seeing with things like Bitcoin doing Layers and whatever complicated stuff. 23:58:03 you could have a wallet that doesn't have view keys even, just per-tx generated addresses for single-use private keys and that need the wallet file to restore (and must be backed up continously) 23:58:07 like old bitcoin wallet.dat 23:58:34 forget to backup when receiving something new or doing a send and your entire balance could be gone! 23:59:04 you don't need carrot or cryptonote to support that, you can make this right now or on carrot (and generate everything on the spot) 23:59:23 usability zero 23:59:35 @intr:unredacted.org: This doesn't work in the hyprothetical situation that a draconian government requires you to provide financial information about your Monero wallet and you comply. They can say "you must only send to approved wallets, ones for which we have the incoming view keys for". If they have the view-incoming k [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/9_6Vjd8KS1pRVV9H ] 23:59:36 scan times, great (unless you assume old generated addresses won't receive new stuff) 23:59:41 Does all this new tech upgrades come with load burdens ?