00:00:13 you can still do this in P2P exchanges 00:00:20 it's that, i doubt anyone will take you 00:00:27 from how risky in nature it is 00:00:35 good points all around. but what if there was a way to give the code to the p2p exchange first. is there a way for them to verify if has been used yet? if so, then maybe that could work like an escrow system. 00:00:42 only if someone is daring 00:00:55 no, there's no way to verify if it's been used 00:01:05 once you share it, how do you prevent them from spending it 00:01:09 and saying it was used 00:01:12 unless you mail the gift card to them, without ever scratching it off 00:01:21 and you might as well mail cash then 00:01:32 they can always lie and say it showed up scratched off 00:02:09 plus what if the giftcard was purchased with fraudulent funds like a stolen CC 00:02:23 and then it's revocked a few weeks later by the victim 00:02:36 that's even worse 00:02:38 just stick to irreversible transaction methods when buying or selling crypto 00:02:43 BoBeR182: ok. I didnt' think about that actually. 00:03:04 so if the fcmp transactions are 7.2 kb and the block size is still at 300 then it's cooked in terms of tps right? <<>> the non penalty block size will increase with FCMP++ but I forget the exact # 00:03:13 you're asking for no-KYC (so anyone can spin up new accounts) and a high fraud rate (giftcards) 00:03:16 bad idea 00:03:24 we've had someone here who asked if they could do CCs in P2P 00:03:24 nioc: 625kb 00:03:35 meow 00:03:37 and stated that they owned the card (yeah right) 00:03:37 Cindy: you can, but they usually have high af fees 00:03:45 and force every protection like 3ds etc 00:03:47 that was super suspicious 00:03:53 2fa codes to the phone number etc 00:03:57 to prevent stolen CCs 00:03:58 also this guy said he had an american credit card 00:04:01 but sometimes spoke russian 00:04:10 i was thinking he just stole a credit card 00:04:11 yea, just move on 00:04:27 Cindy: we have russians here, we have everybody here 00:04:44 some users are bilingual 00:04:56 will cake wallet (or some other service) let you buy some other altcoins from them directly with a prepaid card? then just swap to XMR? 00:04:56 I wouldn't instantly attribute a subset of languages to fraud 00:05:03 some humans even lurk here 00:05:08 meow 00:05:29 just use a KYC creditcard > BTC , then a noKYC btc > xmr 00:05:38 anything else is dumber and risky 00:05:43 BoBeR182: your exchange account will get frozen 00:05:58 wut? 00:06:06 move the BTC to your phone frist 00:06:13 then move to over P2P to someone else 00:06:18 how will that freeze your exchange account 00:06:38 even if that person uses the BTC on a honeypot darknetmarket 00:06:39 they can freeze you from ever buying BTC :P 00:06:43 it's 2 + hopes away from you 00:06:54 why would a KYC stop your from buying BTC? 00:07:02 that's literally how they make their money 00:07:15 CEXs like to track down where you send your BTC to 00:07:17 and when it ends up 00:07:22 if it ends up something bad, you get incriminated 00:07:34 but any BTC can do that 00:07:38 exactly 00:07:48 they clearly accept the risk 00:08:02 you don't heard normie users having exchanges frozen from normal transactions 00:08:09 so why would yours be any different 00:08:26 you bought BTC with a credit card, moved it to a personal wallet, then moved it to a p2p exchange 00:08:38 you could even move it to another CEX and buy XMR directly 00:08:43 then move the XMR to a phone wallet 00:08:47 and trail is gone 00:08:56 just don't do XMR > illegal service 00:09:09 just don't do CEX XMR wallet > illegal service wallet 00:09:46 👮 illegal service sir? no thank you 00:10:06 if you're trying to avoid the risk of someone else illegal activities tainting yoru coins, just bump to your own wallet first to "clean" or deattach them from previous history 00:10:11 XMR is great for that 00:10:17 because the BTC blockchain is transparent. chain analysis would be able to determine where the BTC is going (to be swapped for XMR) even if its a few hops. if a user does this over and over, it might come off as suspicious. thats probably when the kyc account gets flagged/frozen. > how will that freeze your exchange account 00:10:38 buying XMR isn't illegal? 00:10:52 unless it is in your juristriction then you have other issues like talking in a #monero channel 00:11:13 most CEX even allow buying XMR directly 00:11:15 just do that? 00:13:04 Buying xmr isnt the problem 00:13:46 Its depositing no-kyc btc, mixed, dirty, tainted, racist, terrorist btc 00:14:17 BoBeR182: sure, some CEXs allow this. but i've always wondered: wouldn't this make you suspicious to the government from the beginning? if you use a CEX KYC exchange and buy XMR directly. now the government knows you have XMR. regardless of whatever your plans are with it, they KNOW you have it. i feel like even that is a risk. 00:14:46 exchanges that deal in surveillance blockchains, are often mandated to perform dragnet surveillance on the coins that you deposit or withdraw 00:15:23 @cranial_luminance:matrix.org: Who cares? Im allowed to have xmr, gold, silver, a per rock collection, or whatever i feel like 00:15:37 What im not allowed to do, is be in posession of stolen goods (tainted btc) 00:20:42 "Who cares?" is a fair question. but lets be honest with ourselves here: 1. the government probably does care, even if they don't admit it, and we should assume they do care. 2. if we had the choice between buying XMR directly from a KYC CEX or getting as anonymously as possible to where not even the government knows we have i [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/hNP8tt8KZkhrd3A4 ] 00:21:24 just throwing ideas out there 00:23:01 ofrnxmr: "Who cares?" the EU certainly does care 00:23:11 2027 2027 2027 2027 00:23:19 the gov doesn't care about you buying, it cares about you selling 00:23:35 no it cares about both 00:23:49 @kiersten5821:matrix.org: for now. but remember: laws change 00:33:59 you talk about "the govt" as it was one entity 00:34:12 the US government might care under one department the IRS 00:34:34 but if you are using you wageslave job to fund buying XMR, and never bring XMR into your CEX and trade for fiat 00:34:46 there's no reason to think you are running a business and evading taxes 00:35:05 the FBI/etc might care about your XMR if you buy lots and are associated with drug dealing 00:35:15 the EU cares now 00:35:22 but generally speaking investing in crypto both private and nonprivacy isn't illegal 00:35:32 they are planning to ban anyone from accepting anonymity-preserving coins 00:35:34 as long as you pay any capital gains or business income tax on it 00:35:37 which includes monero 00:35:47 Cindy: plan to, and have banned isn't the same 00:35:50 why am i seing planning 00:35:51 saying* 00:36:03 still multiple governments exists that have to work with multiple CEXs 00:36:03 their deadline is 2027 00:36:07 it's not one magic database 00:36:25 when 2027 hits, they will start enforcing the ban 00:36:32 so right now, the ban is just for show 00:36:33 each access for information will require a warrant, or at least an analyst to approve a "national security warrentless look" 00:36:53 all that still requires work and effort 00:36:58 others have a different opinion about what will happen in 2027 00:37:13 superintelligent AI will take over the world 00:37:18 you can use XMR openly and not break the law 00:37:22 look at mullvad 00:37:25 they accept XMR 00:37:29 over a .onion at that 00:37:36 and they have no magical govt raids 00:38:27 what does superintelligent AI think about monero? 00:38:34 why don't you ask it? 00:38:44 it doesn't exist 00:39:07 monero not existing seems like the perfect usecase 00:39:11 however I can ask Cat 00:39:22 govt: where are you hiding your funds!!! 00:39:25 me: it doesn't exist 00:40:02 but I already know what Cat thinks about meownero 00:42:19 meow? 00:42:34 does anyone have a good source on monero propaganda art 00:42:39 looking to expand my collection 00:47:49 monero makes Cat feel quite secure 00:48:11 also loves mining during cold weather 00:48:27 That sounds enjoyable 00:48:37 meow 00:48:42 :) 00:48:47 meow nioc 00:48:57 Better than to waste other stuff when you could compute 00:48:59 I can mine more during summer because more sun 00:49:15 40C ambiant is so nice :D 00:49:38 @ravfx:xmr.mx: I'd probably die 00:50:24 Battery health is good, I want my lifepo4 to outlast me. 00:50:24 Mining is how my battery dont get to 100% at 10am 01:06:44 BoBeR182: I think you're missing my point. let me clarify. Yes, i'm aware that in many places its perfectly legal to use XMR for legitimate purposes. But my point is that this could change at any time, look at the EU (as Cindy pointed out) Therefore, it would be logical to be prepared for these things in advanced. and one of [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/7ZuluN8KVERhVkRO ] 01:07:50 buy any legal crypto coin via KYC or p2p 01:07:57 exchange for XMR on a noKYC platform 01:08:10 that's all you have to really do 01:16:41 BoBeR182: ok, but wouldn't cash by mail be even more anonymous? or gift card to XMR (assuming everyone can trust each other). I'm curious to see how far this can go. what is the ultimate paranoid way? maybe just mine it in that case? but then the electric company might ask what you're doing to use up so much electricity. 01:19:32 Get offgrid, get solar panels and batteries, make electricity for yourself, with love 01:20:45 @ravfx:xmr.mx: Now we're talking! 01:24:33 ultimate paranoia way would be sending gps coordinates through pgp encryption or similar, then meeting up using cold storage wallets and doing a XMR for non-traceable bills 01:24:34 xd 01:28:51 sponkz: hmmmmm, this might work. just gotta make sure you're dealing with a trustworthy person. but i like the way you think! 01:31:29 "trust me bro" 01:31:30 :D 01:31:58 best face-to-face trades should be done in public places like a mcdonalds or starbucks :p 02:55:17 <321bob321> You also get food out of it 03:41:20 lmao this is crazy, there's actually no source code for the node, wtf. shame the blog is written with gpt though > https://blog.can.ac/2025/12/20/reverse-engineering-hyperliquid/ 04:45:20 most anonymous would not be in person, as then you have to travel, and lots of CCTV + metadata (phone pings, tickets, gas station reciepts) 04:45:49 online only, over some alternative networks, .onion/.i2p 04:46:03 ideally it would be crypto4crypto with a time delay 04:46:23 otherwise physical precious metals in the mail/dead drops with time delay 04:46:32 this is assuming a trusted trading partner 04:46:39 precious metals don't have serial numbers 04:46:52 while the mail system can be traced, dead drops are less likely to be monitored 04:53:43 Gas station? That's the least of your problems when you're travelling by car. With public transport a lot of tickets are KYC but I think one can manage. 04:54:02 also in some places cash by mail is illegal, keep that in mind 04:55:47 Missed the first part of the conversation so didn't get the context lol. But I feel like for me the CCTVs during purchases are not a concern, not as passive/centrally monitored as bank card transactions. 05:00:36 https://github.com/MAGICGrants/skylight-wallet/releases/tag/v1.0.6 05:01:41 new release of skylight wallet v1.0.6 05:02:30 BlueyHealer: makes sense, but assuming a repeated purchase of "illegal" xmr crypto on a nation state hostile country, you'd want to avoid meeting in the same place with the same 2 people consistantly 05:02:45 travel creates a strong pattern, lots of studies show you can be deanonymized by that 05:03:01 so dead drops + secure communication seems better or "remote" transfers like cash in mail 05:03:56 biggest problem with cash is if you pull out $1000 in twenties from an ATM, and they immediatly get deposited in the same order at another customers ATM you can easily link the two transactions together 05:04:02 serial numbers and all that 05:49:43 lol imagine HAVING $1000 in cash 06:04:03 Hi, guys 06:04:03 I made this xmr-btc dex aggregator :) 06:04:03 https://monero-orderbooks.com 08:19:02 sponkz: Maybe I've seen too many movies, but my idea of proper face 2 face trade is to meet at a toilet in a shopping mall or similar public place :D 08:19:19 One of the last places on earth where privacy is respected. 09:07:48 They did get raided once actually. Cops walked out empty handed though. > and they have no magical govt raids 09:09:58 What are you talking about? 09:27:05 https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid-sweden-police 09:29:29 That's nice to have but wouldn't count on that alone for anything important. Same as for Signal - raids show they weren't doing it at the moment, not that they're not capable of it. 09:31:13 Capable of ? 09:34:06 I mean eventually capturing data that the raid showed they weren't collecting. 09:40:42 BlueyHealer: Unless you can demonstrate the client apps are capable of capturing data, isn't this just unfounded speculation ? 09:41:36 Why client? I mean the servers in the raid. 09:44:55 the idea is that data you transmit to them is encrypted, no ? 09:46:07 <321bob321> Zero knowledge if its e2ee 09:46:16 <321bob321> Server is just a sync 09:46:45 Yep. 10:07:03 I mean the metadata 10:07:21 With https everywhere, I assume that was the point 10:27:47 @b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org: How can some prices be less than 100% of the market price? 10:54:46 @b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org: You may wish to consider adding the Eigenwallet orderbook as well. Also RetoSwap has a competitor now called Dawnswap. 11:04:39 Dawnswap is more imaginary lol 11:06:22 I don't think there has ever been a single trade complete on it 11:09:17 <321bob321> Its a new dawn 13:22:11 Anyone here use localcoinswap? 14:09:54 Just use retoswap man 14:11:08 >anyone in here using PayPal? 14:24:55 I've been using godex.io for swaps. It's easy to use and the conversion rates are ok 14:29:15 Funny how XMR is being banned on CEX, I don't even think anyone should be using XMR on a CEX in the first place, since it kinda defeats the whole purpose of Monero. DEX for the win! :) 14:32:25 But what about businesses accepting it? Or swappers? They need it conveniently and in bulk, and their income is not secret. 14:32:57 ^ 14:33:15 DEX is not as stable 14:33:48 you'll have to seek out suppliers or sellers of XMR 14:34:11 and negotiate payment metho 14:34:12 method* 14:34:30 Yeah, something that's not a big deal to an individual, but not a business. 14:34:43 A lot of discussion is happening on reddit about the new view keys on the next update of monero and the fact that i can be asked by regulators to map the network. does this discussion is happening to those who make the final decisions on monero devlopment ? 14:34:48 True, but if it's being banned, it's being banned nothing we can do about that. I was thinking though, this CEX ban is a bit silly considering you can always give an auditor your view key no? 14:35:40 flyingfish0: honestly regulators can do it right now 14:35:45 without the new update 14:36:45 they can ask for all the incoming view keys, and then correlate transactions in a pretty simple way 14:37:32 as far as i know, outgoing view keys are important to the quantum-safety of FCMP++ 14:37:48 i think DataHoarder explained that yesterday 14:40:15 dmlunar: yeah that's true, but at the same time, aren't we able to strive for something as convenient as CEX? 14:41:30 Good point, hopefully the community can. 14:49:23 i'd like a list of centralized fiat<->XMR suppliers that hold some of their liquidity as a bond to prove that they aren't a scam 14:51:00 From what i've read the current keys seem impractical tu use for that purpose > they can ask for all the incoming view keys, and then correlate transactions in a pretty simple way 14:51:17 flyingfish0: not really 14:51:59 if a transaction has a main output and a change output 14:52:12 you can check who received the change output (usually the sender itself) 14:52:18 and who received the main output 14:52:25 all with just the incoming view keys 14:53:07 sure, there are transactions with no change, but those are uncommon compared to the ones that do 15:52:34 dmlunar: godex is a cex... you know all swappers are cex right 15:56:32 br-m: that's interesting, I thought it was more of a hybrid. 15:56:58 br-m: nonetheless I've had a good experience with it 15:58:28 br-m: I want to give retroswap a go sometime soon 16:15:34 i think there is a large undeserved hate for cex and love for delisting 16:15:34 * the vast majority of liquidity provided to dex is arbitraged on cex, if cex blows up then liquidity tanks. like with the binance delisting. if kucoin nuked it tomorrow, liquidity would be down terribly again 16:15:34 * no one is running market making on your dex standalone that needs to wait minutes to confirm the trade (there are no AMM dex for monero), central limit order book with huge throughput and low latency is where the liquidity is coming from. if all cex delisted tomorrow it would be very terrible 16:15:34 * most users buy/trade on cex because the dex ux is 100x worse (like you using a swapper site which is cex, though swapper sites are more like a middleman, and not a "true" cex)[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/l7yl0t8KaUFmbTRi ] 16:17:14 I think i might agree with 40% of each statement 16:18:15 what part do you disagree with 16:18:45 " that needs to wait minutes to confirm the trade" 16:18:45 re minutes to confirm trade = same thing for arbitraging on cex or using a swapper. Cexs and swappers dont allow 0 conf deposits 16:18:50 if ANYONE even takes your trade 16:19:43 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: that is why dex have terrible liquidity. because it takes minutes to arb with the cex. no one wants to be holding that risk. on the cex there is tight liquidity as you can trade with extremely low latency. the swapper sites just use a "floating rate" and take the cut off whatever it actually trades for, they don't care. 16:20:06 you have to find the goldilock offer 16:20:10 @kiersten5821:matrix.org: arbing cex -> cex is the same wait .... 16:20:16 either it's too small, or too big 16:20:25 trading on cex is mostly NOT arbing though. trading on dex is 16:20:40 or make your own and wait days for someone to take it 16:20:53 or more 16:22:25 CEX is more convenient, you don't have to spend hours looking for the best offer 16:22:39 like if its a payment method you like, but the person wants 1000-2000 XMR 16:22:52 When going from fiat? 16:22:59 both ways 16:23:04 when going from fiat and when going from monero 16:23:07 Of course cex is much easier and more secure 16:23:22 Exchanges arent doing chargebacks or running scams with stolen accounts 16:24:07 there are so many offers that ask for too little 16:24:09 or too much 16:24:23 and have a payment method you can't possibly fulfill (like F2F) 16:24:52 and yes, range amounts are supposed to fix this, but the minimum or maximum still ends up being shit 16:24:58 on most of the offers that use it 16:26:00 But for crypto<->xmr, id argue that there isnt really a problem finding liquidity. If youre buying > 100xmr, theres a few thousand available at 2.5% on retoswap 16:26:27 And less than 100xmr and theres probably a couple hundred at 0.5-2% 16:26:41 but i don't want to buy >100xmr 16:26:45 and i don't want to sell that much either 16:27:04 oh wait, you mean crypto<->xmr 16:27:05 sorry 16:27:08 Ya, the big offers dont want to sell less than 100xmr > and yes, range amounts are supposed to fix this, but the minimum or maximum still ends up being shit 16:27:10 In general, fiat DEX transactions are the most challenging 16:27:34 @preland: Yee, becauae fiat cant be decentralized 16:28:04 I wish there was a better way to do it, but fiat doesn't exactly make transactions "simple" in the same way that crypto ones are 16:28:15 fiat DEX sucks 16:28:24 i was only able to complete one trade 16:28:27 Fiat dex is an oxymoron 16:29:06 on retoswap, and that's only because i finally found a GOOD offer after spending hours upon hours 16:30:12 i used to think DEX is the way to find monero, but i wouldn't recommend this shit to normies 16:30:41 and to businesses either 16:31:11 2.5% is terrible bruh... 0.5 is already not great > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> But for crypto<->xmr, id argue that there isnt really a problem finding liquidity. If youre buying > 100xmr, theres a few thousand available at 2.5% on retoswap 16:31:35 it needs uniswap-like liquidity to be actually good 16:31:58 @kiersten5821:matrix.org: For 2000xmr? Try buying that on cex w/o slippage 16:32:36 i'd like a list of suppliers that either let you sell or buy XMR (even with a fee) directly to or from your wallet 16:32:51 but not like the CEX way 16:33:18 I'm slowly coming to the conclusion it's better to acquire a different coin like LTC first then swap it over to XMR.. Not ideal but RetoSwap doesn't really fit my needs either. > i used to think DEX is the way to find monero, but i wouldn't recommend this shit to normies 16:34:00 they list what payment methods they accept upfront, amounts, etc. i don't care 16:34:16 the main benefit here is that it'll be much more stable than the sea of offers in retoswap 16:34:16 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Basicswap liquidity dried up after xmr ran to highs, but it had good rates for ltc<->xmr, like 1% in either direction, sometimes 0% if buying ltc 16:35:03 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Now I moved the problem from finding XMR to finding LTC, lol. 16:35:28 like accomodating both big and small buyers/sellers, and you can be sure that they won't disappear one day 16:35:50 one of the issues i've had in retoswap, is that the good offers i find don't last 16:36:22 Cindy: Fiat? 16:36:26 yes 16:36:27 fiat 16:36:42 it's not like you can just settle with someone and know they'll be there for you anytime 16:36:56 they just disappear within a week (or even less), and you're back to searching 16:37:39 Cindy: Why not? When a friend of mine named notfrnxmr was on localmonero, he was reliable 16:37:57 I wonder how it was with LocalMonero. I never actually traded with it but I don't remember it had the same issues as RetoSwap. 16:37:57 exactly 16:38:12 i'd like a list of stable suppliers who are there most of the time 16:38:21 i'm not asking for 24/7 uptime, just business days or whatever 16:38:34 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Nah LM has full time swappers who were available constantly 16:38:44 and have a good range they accept (not big only or extremely small) 16:38:55 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Even had businesses 16:38:58 yeah LM had those 16:39:08 but it changed after LM got shut down 16:39:17 Damn, I missed out. 16:39:20 like ravfx said, a lot of them never migrated to retoswap 16:39:30 Why's that ? 16:39:40 retoswap is not a full replacement for localmonero 16:39:53 because local monero had stable suppliers/swappers 16:40:02 while retoswap is full of one-off offers 16:40:19 full of instability, and hours wasted on searching for offers 16:40:20 Localmonero was easier for non-tech ppl to hop on and buy or sell monero 16:40:32 Retoswap isnt used by normies 16:40:35 also it didn't help that you had to keep retoswap on all the time 16:40:38 to keep your offer alive 16:40:44