09:18:38 schizo? 09:23:37 I can't find any more groups in the Monero community, so I have to post here. Please don't mind my doing so. Yesterday, after a brainstorm, I held a small offline Monero community gathering in Chengdu, mainland China. These are all my friends who own Monero. If anyone else wants to come, please contact me and I would be very w [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/2KT79YMLLUVhMl9D ] 09:24:07 Brothers, I hope I'm not disturbing you, are you?😂 09:27:53 o k 09:28:12 link 09:31:55 @daywei:matrix.org: gaydu. 10:01:20 @gan:skhron.org: I can't understand your language, brother. I'm not quite sure what you mean 10:02:47 lmao 10:02:50 Aaaaaaaaaaaa 10:03:04 I want to go to mainland China to talk about monero that sounds dope 10:04:43 @daywei:matrix.org: Never mind, it was a humorous remark 10:06:47 I wonder if this is dangerous though 10:13:30 unverifiable proof has been presented, everything is a scam until proven otherwise 10:14:25 @daywei:matrix.org: he was calling your city gay 10:14:29 I mean talking about Monero in China in general 10:15:30 @intr:unredacted.org: I mean, Shanghai and Chengdu are fairly liberal when it comes to that 10:19:33 Oh, really? 10:27:52 @gan:skhron.org: Hahaha, yes, there are many homosexuals around me, but it doesn't matter. They haven't done anything wrong. My classmates and friends around me are also like this, so I've had to accept it 10:30:25 BlueyHealer: Yes, there are risks involved. I'm doing my best to mitigate these risks by establishing a club focused on discussing blockchain or cypherpunk. If I don't post here for a long time, please remember me and wish me good luck😂 10:32:02 The meme that China is the big bad evil surveillance state with no rivhts has gone stale since the rest of the western world has aggressively accelerated their efforts to become that themselves. 10:32:55 @daywei:matrix.org: can you use matrix without a vpn in china? 10:33:34 @daywei:matrix.org: I'm (almost, a different kind) one for context, still kinda based (great) for China, but that's beside the point 10:33:43 > <@daywei:matrix.org> I can't find any more groups in the Monero community, so I have to post here. Please don't mind my doing so. Yesterday, after a brainstorm, I held a small offline Monero community gathering in Chengdu, mainland China. These are all my friends who own Monero. If anyone else wants to come, please conta [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/k_D794MLcF9xbk5k ] 10:33:43 There's a Chinese individual in the Monero forum, pretty cool seeing more people from all over the world in the Monero space. 10:34:35 @hardal7:matrix.org: No, if I don't use it, I won't be able to communicate with you. If I do use it, it's actually considered illegal, depending on what I do outside 10:36:32 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Yes, actually, this has both advantages and disadvantages. I don't intend to slander my country; I just think it needs to be improved. Globally, China should be one of the safest countries, without a doubt. However, this is achieved at the cost of ordinary citizens' privacy. It's an equal exchange, and we accept it 10:36:41 which VPN do you use ? Apparently a lot of them are blocked but I had someone who traveled there for work use Mullvad and it worked. 10:37:52 pyratevevo, to be fair, I'm not Western either, I am experiencing GFW-like censorship. maybe moreso. 10:38:00 Our VPN works in China 10:38:45 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: I came here to get more Chinese people involved. Here, we want to participate in the Monero community, and there are many people who want to do so. However, most of these people have no choice but to learn about Monero through our oral communication. You know, there are many restrictions here. Even if I chat with you now, it is risky, yes, it is legal risk 10:39:10 and we accept it <- I wouldn't like it for sure. I'd "accept" it simply because there's absolutely nothing I can do to opt out. 10:39:37 @daywei:matrix.org: I'm not knowledgeable enough to know about the landscape in mainland China. In western countries, mass surveillance propped up as an excuse for security is at best overblown and at worst a smoke screen for more nefarious purposes. You're saying it is actually used for safety in China ? Of course you sho [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/jNmR-IMLQjR0ckJG ] 10:40:08 I'm just kind of unsettled about Western people who haven't experienced anything like this cheering for China havign it better even though it's definitely further on that track... 10:40:24 Like, i'm pretty sure none of those people have experienced even Wireguard being blocked, ffs! 10:40:24 @pawism:frei.chat: how have you achieved that? i thought chinese DPI just blocks anything from the outside world (for the average citizen at least, not companies) 10:40:27 @hardal7:matrix.org: Yes, not all matrix home-servers are banned in China, Skhron[.]org is banned in China however because the website mentions Tor bridges, but that's beside the point, GFW doesn't ban everything by default, it's not allowlist-based 10:40:47 @pawism:frei.chat: And which one is that ? 10:40:58 @pawism:frei.chat: Many people are afraid to use VPNs because accessing the Monero community or Twitter using them is illegal in our region. However, to purchase Monero, one must use a VPN. This is a vicious cycle 10:41:16 i thought chinese DPI just blocks anything from the outside world <- I'm not Chinese either but I know it's not a whitelists. here we DO have whitelists, but only on mobile internet and only sometimes, and it's very devastating and everyone fears this coming to wired connections as well. 10:41:27 I'm pretty sure China is NOT a whitelist. 10:42:06 @daywei:matrix.org: Have you tried running a monero node with i2p network routing? 10:42:09 However, to purchase Monero, one must use a VPN. This is a vicious cycle <- Are there limited free ones just for bootstrapping? Or there's some Tor bridges that work? 10:42:17 @daywei:matrix.org: What about Tor, you probably have to use bridges and all that slow shit, no ? 10:42:27 btw is i2p safe to run there? I don't know if it is here. 10:42:31 @gan:skhron.org: if i set up an openvpn server here will someone in china will be able to access it? 10:42:48 pyratevevo, idk about others but obfs4 is very much not slow. Here they somehow work still. 10:42:54 @xorchi2:matrix.org: Would require pre-seeding, bootstrap nodes are generally banned 10:43:18 OpenVPN, just like Wireguard, is VERY easy to block, so no. 10:43:43 @hardal7:matrix.org: Yup, they should be able to, but I'd recommend to use VLESS + [X]TCP + REALITY (VISION + uTLS) 10:43:56 I don't feel comfortable saying names, but there are a few obfuscation protocols popular here that originated from and for China. 10:44:01 oh nvm they got mentioned 10:44:28 Like, here OVPN/WG are blocked and idk if there are exceptions. At least going outside the border. 10:44:32 They don't care, unless the server will receive a report (or get sniped) > OpenVPN, just like Wireguard, is VERY easy to block, so no. 10:45:05 BlueyHealer: OpenVPN isn't blocked in Russia, only Wireguard is blocked by a handshake, and not by all ISPs either 10:45:15 but contextually, we can discuss that in offtopic 10:45:35 i see, thank you > <@gan:skhron.org> Yup, they should be able to, but I'd recommend to use VLESS + [X]TCP + REALITY (VISION + uTLS) 10:46:32 They don't care, unless the server will receive a report (or get sniped) <- From what I've read, GFW does block the protocol, no? 10:47:15 Damn, hope that I won't have to learn all this one day. > <@gan:skhron.org> Yup, they should be able to, but I'd recommend to use VLESS + [X]TCP + REALITY (VISION + uTLS) 10:47:26 BlueyHealer: OpenVPN isn't blocked in Russia <- It's the opposite from my experience. For example, hackthebox is generally accessible but OVPN there doesn't work, at least directly. 10:47:54 pyratevevo, yes. Appreciate what you have. 10:47:56 So, their GFW and DPI are that powerful, huh? What do you think could possibly be connecting them to the Monero network? > <@gan:skhron.org> Would require pre-seeding, bootstrap nodes are generally banned 10:47:59 I feel happy for you. 10:48:26 GFW is powerful but there are established methods that penetrate it. 10:49:17 @xorchi2:matrix.org: Would require pre-seeding, bootstrap nodes are generally banned <- And does the protocol stand out? Never seen this discussed for some reason. 10:49:34 @xorchi2:matrix.org: Good question. 10:49:34 I also wonder how risky it is to host a node in these high risk regions. 10:49:45 Guys, I'm a bit confused after reading these messages. I'm not very tech-savvy, so I can't answer some questions. However, I'm using this VPN, which I paid for. Of course, I don't know if it's secure or not 10:50:10 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/jSLomSJhYBVmtNhiSEuENlEL.jpg (1000000258.jpg) 10:50:34 I primarily contribute the data for Petrograd, rarely Nižny Novgorod and Arhangeljsk (and super rarely Moscow), and I haven't seen OVPN being blocked that much > BlueyHealer: OpenVPN isn't blocked in Russia <- It's the opposite from my experience. For example, hackthebox is generally accessible but OVPN there doesn't work, at least directly. 10:50:39 To access or purchase Monero, we must use these 10:50:41 Are crypto popular at all in China ? I read once there used to be digital Yuan or something. 10:50:42 @daywei:matrix.org: did you pay with cash? 10:51:26 @xorchi2:matrix.org: It's not that powerful, somebody official probably just ran an I2P node and blocked some of the IPs 10:51:45 @hardal7:matrix.org: used 10:52:17 gan, out of thos,e Petrograd stands out because why tf do you call it that, it hans't been called that in like a century 10:52:34 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: You have to believe that Chinese users account for half of the entire cryptocurrency market 10:52:36 Interesting! Where do you upload (get) the data? 10:52:49 BlueyHealer: Old Internet culture 10:52:58 BlueyHealer: OONI, ntc and net4bbs 10:53:07 ntc? 10:53:12 Out of those I onlt know net4bbs 10:53:20 oh wait nvm ooni too 10:53:20 net4people/bbs * 10:53:41 Yes, I know, didn't immediately remember Ooni too. ntc I have no idea about though 10:53:57 ntc.party, Anglo-Russian-speaking forum dedicated to internet censorship evasion > ntc? 10:54:09 br-m | BlueyHealer: Old Internet culture <- who tf deadnames it like that? Time travellers? 10:54:42 @daywei:matrix.org: For speculation or actual spending like the stablecoins and such ? 10:54:42 Having easy access to crypto is good for swapping to XMR. 10:54:58 Actually me, and a lot of people in my circle, Germanism and calling it Petrograd was common in like 2009 10:55:06 Oh. Weird. 10:55:35 Germanism? ok not questioning, just some weird philosophical/political thing I don't want or need to know lol 10:55:49 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: yes 10:56:02 I mean, we can discuss that in the offtopic, if you'd like to 10:56:30 nah philosophy lessons for me were a tie to bring the laptop and game 10:57:46 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Go to Hong Kong and you'll find out that all of those "Guangxhou Shipping Company Ltd." are doing billions of dollars of trade... through Tether. The "ban on cryptos" in China is for the mainland plebs. 10:58:14 *I use "plebs" as the average folk. Wish they knew about XMR, but even that's probably censored over there. 11:01:18 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Sounds sick. Now they just need to ditch the casino chips and use XMR. 11:02:39 The "ban on cryptos" in China is for the mainland plebs. <- But that's exactly what we're talking about, it doesn't matter what the exceptions are because they're not for us. 11:02:41 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: How do you build a community around it in China knowing that a) they have a firewall around any social media sites and b) people are scared as _____ of getting caught with crypto, let alone XMR 11:03:26 To be fair, most big social media and the most popular messenger are blocked here either. Everyone is still there anyway and already used to it being like this. 11:03:54 Neo VPN I am co admin I sell on xmrbazaar > <@pyratevevo:matrix.org> And which one is that ? 11:04:04 True yeah sucks :(( > <@daywei:matrix.org> Many people are afraid to use VPNs because accessing the Monero community or Twitter using them is illegal in our region. However, to purchase Monero, one must use a VPN. This is a vicious cycle 11:04:20 But yeah, it's a very different situation because the internal services, unlike in China, are not actually popular. 11:04:30 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Wouldn't Monero pragmatically make more sense in their situation though ? If the fear is using crypto at all then might as well use the private one and not the transparent freeze able fake shit. 11:04:43 BlueyHealer: Even if you explain to the mainland Chinese citizen that XMR is untraceable (I don't know through what channels), they'll outweigh the cons of having their and their relative's social credit score dinged... which pretty much ostracizes them from society. 11:04:53 But I can attest, XMR is widely used in Hong Kong 11:05:12 pyratevevo, Yeah, that makes it better but still I'd be scared of being caught having it, period - doesn't matter what it's spent *on*. 11:05:17 Our VPN also works in Iran! > <@hardal7:matrix.org> how have you achieved that? i thought chinese DPI just blocks anything from the outside world (for the average citizen at least, not companies) 11:05:40 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/frei.chat/VLsOZZBIHAmYHtdxHZbQKrGl.jpg (iran.jpg) 11:05:42 https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/frei.chat/oQwTUenEldzMkjrVNooshZMc.jpg (irany.jpg) 11:06:11 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Oh really, I should go there. 11:06:17 the latest obfuscation methods that exist > <@hardal7:matrix.org> how have you achieved that? i thought chinese DPI just blocks anything from the outside world (for the average citizen at least, not companies) 11:06:39 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Yeah, going to HK, Macau or even Taiwan is fairly easy 11:06:53 @pawism:frei.chat: And what those methods will be called? 11:07:17 BlueyHealer: Again, Monero specifically protects users in such scenario. 11:07:17 You get caught that you've used it in the past ? Well shit, it was all lost in a boating accident. They can't prove shit at that point. 11:07:22 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Well then you need to join the hawala import/export community. That's the primary reason why they use XMR... as a private settlement layer 11:07:34 @gan:skhron.org: Vless, Trojan, VMless, and wrapping it inside https among other things... 11:07:38 I'm unsure but considering you was unable to tell me your ASNs, I actually doubt you have the know-how beyond reselling 11:07:46 @pawism:frei.chat: That won't work in Iran. 11:07:52 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: So it is finally being used for that purpose ? Wasn't aware of this, nice. 11:08:39 again, generally offtopic in my view 11:08:51 @gan:skhron.org: I'm not the one who made the VPN I'm working with someone who actually knows how... I could actually tell you the ASNs just the website was blocked because I was using a Russian IP address in my tests I was trying to explain to you what is blocked and what isn't blocked in Russia... 11:08:56 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Absolutely. One of the best gifts for the hawala businesses (aka the Turkish barber shop in your home town that seemingly has no customers - it uses XMR to settle with its counterparts in Turkey) 11:09:00 @gan:skhron.org: It does read above screenshot... 11:09:21 My friend literally lives in Iran and the VPN that I gave a trial to him works well... 11:09:22 @pawism:frei.chat: Yes, a random screenshot, how telling 11:09:36 It's not a random screenshot it's my session account talking to my Iranian friend... 11:10:16 @pawism:frei.chat: Unless they turned off the suffocator, I seriously doubt that 11:10:31 In our context, our own private money is not actually considered ours. Can you understand that? If I were in another country, I could talk about this matter, but I can't because I am in China. Every word I type now should be monitored 11:10:33 @gan:skhron.org: The suffocator?? 11:10:45 What on earth are you on about?? 11:10:50 The suffocator? Lol nice name for the network filters 11:11:07 They are using starlink already yes 11:11:12 @pawism:frei.chat: Again, offtopic, I can discuss that in the offtopic, let's not shit up the room 11:11:13 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Turkey too ?! Where can I properly read more into this. 11:11:21 @pawism:frei.chat: Even fucking better 11:11:27 But even with that you need a way to get around the further restrictions and our VPN works well for that 11:11:42 Using a VPN on the network which doesn't have any censorship to bypass, how cute 11:12:14 It does still block he was saying there were still blocks... 11:12:15 Again, saying that it "works" in Iran isn't relevant in a single bit 11:12:20 Monero brings me a sense of security because it is money that I can freely dispose of, without worrying about it being taken away by anyone. If I hold too much Bitcoin and Ethereum, I already feel very insecure. That's the truth. Here, my money doesn't belong to me; only Monero truly belongs to me 11:12:42 @daywei:matrix.org: I totally understand, I get that feeling a lot of the time online and I'm not even in China. 11:13:01 @daywei:matrix.org: Bring your topic here → https://matrix.to/#/#monero-offtopic:monero.social 11:13:10 Isn't usign Starlink dangerous in this scenario?.. 11:13:11 @daywei:matrix.org: Damn... I can't imagine the stress of having your savings wiped out 5 years down the line over some random comment you've posted. But even if you evangelize XMR to your friends, wouldn't you feel pressure that they have big mouthes and turn you in to the state? 11:13:19 @pawism:frei.chat: Didn't Iran block that ? 11:13:43 BlueyHealer: It is, but we can discuss that in the offtopic 11:13:57 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: I suspect so yes so that information earlier he told me about starlink was likely a month or so ago and this VPN works on his phone without starlink and can access the world wide web... 11:14:00 @xorchi2:matrix.org: Why is this offtopic ? We're literally talking about Monero usage. 11:14:24 @pawism:frei.chat: OONI probe is free to download, I'd like to see a report then 11:14:26 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Debanking don't exclusively happen I'm China. 11:14:48 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Only via jammers, thankfully they're rather busy with something else at the moment 11:15:01 @xorchi2:matrix.org: What channel is that? I'm not quite sure. Is it appropriate for me to discuss this topic here 11:16:11 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Oh well. I thought that was off topic 😁 11:16:14 BlueyHealer: Starlink is also not allowed in our country. It is indeed very dangerous, but there are always some people who want to do something to fight for a little more freedom for more people 11:17:07 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: The situation you described is 100% likely to occur, so we dare not say 11:17:09 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: Maybe not, but even as someone who is outspoken about the West online, and I advocate for XMR's use... I sure as hell would become a mute if I were in their technocratic state. Same thing in Russia. Maybe the West will end up there soon, but I've heard horror stories from folks in China and on their crypto usage. 11:17:32 I can't imagine what must be going on in one's head to be this suicidal 11:17:55 I mean about actually using Starlink when it's dangerous 11:18:13 Did Feds z sass 11:18:14 @gan:skhron.org: It's a vicious cycle the sites that report asns don't work on russian IP addresses and therefore you can't find the ASN there's no need to be hostile I know how to find the ASN I use ipx.ac and there's literally an option right there in bgpview to see the ASN that is blocked in Russia... I was trying to sh [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/6Iuf-YMLTXZVV0tm ] 11:18:40 @pawism:frei.chat: Skill issue. 11:19:34 Well you are getting annoyed about something that a non Russian is trying to find the ASN and telling me I can't figure out what an ASN is when I always check the ASN of IP addresses but those sites are blocked in Russia... 11:19:56 I know very well what an ASN is the sites are just blocked to check such things in Russia... 11:20:04 Well the sites I'm familiar with anyways 11:20:14 I don't live in Russia hence I am not familiar with their equivelant sites 11:20:22 no need to be hostile brother 11:21:24 What the fuck? how your fucking total skill issue to get your own ASN is even fucking connected Russia or some shit 11:21:45 also please for the fucking asshole of Satan, move to the offtopic already 11:25:29 @gan:skhron.org: This is incoherent I just explained that the sites to check it were blocked and I was doing some experiments with residential vpns to see what is/isn't blocked. Ok fine talk there then 11:26:09 I in fact think if adoption ever becomes a thing, it will be first in these regions, China, HK, Taiwan, Russia, Iran etc etc. 11:26:44 @pawism:frei.chat: You're fucking shilling something that you couldn't even understand, don't make fucking false claims, period. 11:26:47 Add to that countries with unstable or radically declining local currency and economy, like Argentina and Turkey for example. 11:27:56 @gan:skhron.org: I'm not making false claims and I do understand what I'm talking about I'm not a network engineer but I am tech savvy I am not making any claims I'm showing proof from a literal Iranian who used my VPN and I also tested it with Russians and it works from the orehus club... 11:28:00 Just to note, I'm not interested in shitting up the room/channel more than it was needed to, so whatever you'd write, will go to /dev/null 11:28:11 Then talk in monero off topic... 11:28:31 Why don't you start I will continue talking there with you alright? 11:29:07 Ladies first. 11:29:27 You are the one who wants to talk there... 11:30:05 You are just making hostile and unaware accusations and I am responding accordingly... 11:30:39 😒 12:12:56 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: why would unstable currencies be a reason for adoption? monero is if not much more volatile 12:32:05 It is for sure less volatile than my currency at least... 12:45:15 @hardal7:matrix.org: True. In Turkey you would assume that people would buy into cryptos (or XMR)... and yet when I worked the locals wanted fiat EUR/USD/GBP for rent, and long term savings were kept in gold. The bazaar in Istanbul was full of "unofficial" crypto OTC desks until Erdogan extorted many of them to either "pay a huge fine"... or shut down. 12:46:57 They're still having a heated discussion. Actually, it's kind of cool. Once they sort things out, there won't be any conflicts. Am I being too boring? I love watching them argue 12:56:42 @hardal7:matrix.org: Not really, some fiat currencies depreciate like crazy. 12:58:06 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: yeah but why would you buy monero when there is the convenience of gold/usd 12:58:07 @shadowatlas:matrix.org: Not unlike here as well. Distrust in the local currency leading to saving in USD/EUR and gold. 12:59:01 plus a high inflation rate just creates high interest rates so you can hold your money in the bank and still keep it not depreciating (if we are talking about long term holdings at least) 12:59:40 @hardal7:matrix.org: So this is less true for Turkey, but some countries with declining local fiat usually also have bad infrastructure for like internet banking and shit. Here for example, Tether became a big thing because its so easier to buy through it online than go through the hoops to buy in USD etc. 13:01:01 @hardal7:matrix.org: Is usury that universal ? 13:01:05 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: you are right but its still very unlikely people will pick xmr over btc even in the future 13:01:35 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: its not really usury when the currency can lose half of its value in a year 13:02:05 @hardal7:matrix.org: It's a smaller chance, but I don't think it's impossible. We just need a couple more Monero City's here and there and it could happen. 13:02:06 interest will make you king in these countries but its a matter of one bad year for you to lose big as well 13:02:37 @pyratevevo:matrix.org: what is the appeal to pick btc over xmr for the average person? 13:03:37 @hardal7:matrix.org: The average person will use CBDCs. Those people are out of the question. 13:04:43 fair enough, if you are talking about the rest xmr is a good bet to make. it looks promising and people still see it as "crypto for drugs" 13:05:25 Supposedly things should get bad enough in surveillance and rights wise that a lot of average persons get forced to wisen up and educate themselves. Certainly, interest in internet privacy has increased in recent years for similar reasons. Monero is just another tool in that concept. 13:06:34 @hardal7:matrix.org: So not unlike bitcoin back then, from what I read. 13:07:01 especially since the EU is moving away from cash for big purchases now. the age of untracked transactions is about to be over 13:07:56 @hardal7:matrix.org: Or about to enter a new age of untracked digital transactions this time. 13:10:02 5 years ago i would think even when such happened people wouldn't really care, but now the political climate is more extreme and if digital privacy ever hits the mainstream people might be more open to taking extreme steps such as the idea of monero 13:10:26 and im talking about the left and the right which both seem to hate their governments 13:11:57 @hardal7:matrix.org: I'm especially worried if they fully surveile all internet connections. Imagine you can't have an encrypted connection anymore and everything is connected to your identity. We are right on the verge of total surveillance they can even determine what tech you are able to buy 13:12:24 My take is we need to be able to make chips at home 13:12:31 @hardal7:matrix.org: Oh shit... 13:12:37 :( 13:13:11 @randallweems:midov.pl: I'm not actually fully up to date on the EU and their never ending crusade to break encrypted communications, but this is at least something that's in the works there. 13:14:30 @randallweems:midov.pl: all they need is to pass a few laws under the guise of "children protection", and a few mail to all the ISPs in the country. then there would be very little we could do. 13:14:36 You know making ultra small transistors at home is not pheasible but maybe photonic chips could make it easier. It also doesn't have to be the best resolution possible just something decently small you can make yourself. I mean you can burn DVDs with ease 13:15:14 @hardal7:matrix.org: Yup. That's why I installed this app because it might be the last opportunity to network with people 13:15:42 I mean thats why I got matrix to use with this app lol 13:15:47 I'm especially worried if they fully surveile all internet connections. Imagine you can't have an encrypted connection anymore and everything is connected to your identity. <- 13:15:47 The latter is already true due to isp contracts. But the former - how are they going to deal with https? 13:15:55 Which app? 13:16:07 @pawism:frei.chat: Fluffychat 13:16:12