02:44:07 <CEO_of_Linux> do monero devs have any clue how kripos monero tracing works? is it suspected to be different from a dust attack?
02:46:26 <br-m> <gan:skhron.org> I thought it's already established that Monero isn't really vulnerable to dusting attacks?
02:47:57 <Cindy_> CEO_of_Linux: It could be real, or it could be the feds using this opportunity to create FUD and bluff again
02:48:59 <CEO_of_Linux> Cindy_ i don't think they can bluff in the court case tho. they need to show how they obtained the evidence
02:49:08 <Cindy_> Well there is no court case
02:49:20 <Cindy_> At least I haven't found one
02:49:47 <Cindy_> I'm betting 99% it's just crappy opsec and timing attacks on exchanges
02:52:28 <Cindy_> This isn't the first time they lied out of their ass, they like doing it so that they can create some FUD around technology and discourage people from even trying
02:55:13 <CEO_of_Linux> seems a bit random for norway to do that
02:56:55 <br-m> <gan:skhron.org> CEO_of_Linux: You've read the news beyond its headline?
02:57:30 <yanmaani>  Cindy_ there were arrests made, i presume there will be a court case sooner or later
02:57:35 <yanmaani> but it's not amazon
02:58:28 <Cindy_> There are other ways of deanonymizing people than just attacking Monero
02:58:46 <yanmaani> I wrote my theory above
02:58:52 <Cindy_> It's like having a giant fortified gate but your walls are made out of cardboard
02:59:03 <yanmaani> I think that they have some kind of limited attack and found a clever way to use it
02:59:14 <Cindy_> yanmaani: What's your theory?
02:59:18 <Cindy_> I wasn't on here to see it
02:59:35 <Cindy_> Does it have to do with the coinbase outputs
02:59:48 <CEO_of_Linux> coinbase doesn't list monero
03:00:15 <Cindy_> Coinbase as in the first transaction where a output is created
03:00:20 <Cindy_> Not the company
03:00:31 <CEO_of_Linux> ah sorry
03:00:47 <yanmaani> Cindy_: If you look what they write, they use a very specific phrasing: "track the use of Monero in specific cases. This method ... enabled us to identify individuals who paid ... Kripos has also identified two sellers"
03:01:01 <yanmaani> They are clearly stating that they were able to identify buyers
03:01:13 <yanmaani> While strongly hinting that the sellers were caught for different reasons
03:01:59 <Cindy_> So the sellers got the $5 wrench?
03:02:13 <yanmaani> The other thing is, maybe it's just how it got translated but
03:02:18 <yanmaani> "Track the use of monero"?
03:02:25 <yanmaani> Why not "track monero" or "track monero transactions"
03:02:36 <Cindy_> I think it has to do with the site they were using
03:02:43 <yanmaani> So my guess would be maybe some kind of side channel, maybe network related, OR
03:02:56 <yanmaani> something like, first they spent $10 on a site
03:02:59 <yanmaani> then spent $10 elsewhere
03:03:08 <yanmaani> Then spend $10 on that site again
03:03:37 <yanmaani> Whoever runs that site can now make a very strong guess on which ring member was the real transaction.
03:04:04 <Cindy_> Ah yeah true
03:04:33 <yanmaani> I'm not saying I'm confident of my theory, but it logically fits the details of their claims
03:04:35 <Cindy_> How would a side channel occur?
03:04:58 <yanmaani> Cindy_: Well if for example you broadcast transactions on clearnet, you do not use a VPN, and they simply monitor your network traffic
03:05:04 <yanmaani> that sort of thing
03:05:05 <Cindy_> I mean wouldn't the timing be vastly different from when they made the offer? 
03:05:07 <Cindy_> Oh
03:05:34 <Cindy_> Classic chainlytics attack
03:05:53 <Cindy_> Getting the txid and then tracking their IP along with it
03:06:02 <CEO_of_Linux> there are also the malicious nodes that were discovered which afaik nobody knows yet what kind of attack they were being used for
03:06:03 <yanmaani> well they also have more resources; they could theoretically do much worse
03:06:09 <Cindy_> That would make sense if they also had the sellers too
03:06:19 <yanmaani> like "select * from isp where port = 18081"
03:06:48 <Cindy_> It would be plausible really, we're talking about pedophiles
03:06:48 <yanmaani> and then just look at who makes outgoing data transactions on that port a few minutes before a transaction of interest enters the mempool
03:06:57 <Cindy_> They aren't really the smartest tool in the shed
03:07:45 <Cindy_> yanmaani: How would you know if someone made a transaction or was just trying to fetch new blocks?
03:08:01 <Cindy_> I'm assuming node traffic is encrypted (it would be dumb if it wasn't)
03:08:16 <Cindy_> So the signal would be polluted with block update requests
03:08:46 <yanmaani> Cindy_: well, a block download goes in the other direction :)
03:09:14 <Cindy_> Yeah I know but I mean users polling a node for updates
03:09:26 <Cindy_> Like "what block number are you on?" Over and over again
03:09:32 <yanmaani> those requests should be smaller, no?
03:09:43 <yanmaani> you could also correlate it with the exact size of the transaction
03:09:49 <CEO_of_Linux> different package sizes, handshakes, timing, etc.
03:09:51 <yanmaani> as a transaction won't really compress well
03:09:55 <yanmaani> ^
03:10:12 <Cindy_> True
03:10:32 <yanmaani> there are defenses against it, im not aware of such techniques actually being used anywhere
03:11:04 <yanmaani> but norway is a small country, i think ISP market is very concentrated
03:11:06 <CEO_of_Linux> mullvad has DAITA for that
03:11:25 <yanmaani> state owns major telecom
03:11:41 <Cindy_> I think TLS has some padding btw
03:11:48 <Cindy_> For the connection data
03:11:49 <yanmaani> they also do some intense stuff "to protect the children"
03:11:52 <CEO_of_Linux> this is all assuming their wallet was connected to the clearnet. but they were obviously using tor, at least to access the dark web
03:12:08 <Cindy_> I don't know if it's to the extent to the size of an average Monero transaction
03:12:40 <Cindy_> CEO_of_Linux: DAITA is just connection padding
03:12:46 <yanmaani> yeah, it's just a theory. if you want to get REALLY paranoid you can of course say, well if you look at all these tor users here, and then we look at who was connected when X Y and Z happened ...
03:13:08 <yanmaani> i mean it can't be more than few thousand people right?
03:13:15 <yanmaani> but this is really too depressing to think of
03:13:29 <yanmaani> because even though it';s an admirable goal it implies mass surveillance has gone so far that you can just ...
03:13:54 <Cindy_> Yeah
03:14:21 <CEO_of_Linux> nah Tor has a lot more users. all cybercrime operates on it
03:14:40 <Cindy_> On another topic (and I know I probably repeated it): payto:// now supports Monero
03:14:58 <Cindy_> I thought the GNU Taler guys would not like it, but uhh
03:15:02 <Cindy_> They didn't care much
03:17:12 <CEO_of_Linux> I'm a bit confused tbh. because it's obvious LEA has some insane capabilities. they were insane in the snowden leaks, they only got better since then. but there seem to be very few busts compared to the horrifying amount of crime
03:17:55 <CEO_of_Linux> i'm not really sure what's going on. there's some cognitive dissonace in all of this
03:19:12 <CEO_of_Linux> i remember a few months ago there were two guys who threw a grenade inside a cafe in Paris then ran away. they live streamed the whole thing. they never got caught
03:19:27 <CEO_of_Linux> how is that possible
03:19:47 <Cindy_> Incompetence
03:20:25 <yanmaani> people shoot each otehr while livestreaming with their face and get away with it. and then there was the actually competent guy who killed the health insurance ceo
03:21:58 <CEO_of_Linux> gotta use the good stuff to protect the ceos
03:22:56 <Cindy_> I hate how the EU gov completely nerfed GNU Taler
03:23:27 <Cindy_> It used to be privacy for the buyer, but now it has KYC and age verification
03:27:08 <CEO_of_Linux> just reading on taler now. it seems like it provides privacy only in so far as you trust the taler exchange to implement the blind signature protocol correctly?
03:28:02 <CEO_of_Linux> any entity that interfaces with the fiat banking system is going to have to do KYC
03:28:24 <Cindy_> Not like it really matters because of the KYC
03:28:40 <Cindy_> Taler is just an extension of the fiat banking system, not a cryptocurrency
03:28:53 <Cindy_> A payment network/system or something
04:06:58 <BlueyHealer> Yeah really curious to hear more about that because every time I heard about "tracing Monero" (like in the Chainalysis leak) there was a "gotcha".
04:10:42 <BlueyHealer> I recall one case where the culprit was exchanging exact amoungs on a cooperating swapper
04:17:50 <br-m> <jeffro256> Regarding the USA, the Roman Sterlingov case demonstrated that BS companies can hand wave away the rigorousness of their techniques and just tell the jury "trust me bro, the clusters are speaking to me". Also IDK about standards of evidence in Norway, where Kripos is HQ'ed.  > <CEO_of_Linux> Cindy_ i don't think they can bluff in the court case tho. they need to show how they obtained the evidence
04:18:31 <br-m> <jeffro256> As far as it has been applied so far in the US, BS companies actually can sort of bluff.
04:20:11 <BlueyHealer> Cindy_ | It used to be privacy for the buyer, but now it has KYC and age verification <- I recall watching a presentation on Taler and tbh I still don't entirely understand it. So what point is there now?
04:20:24 <br-m> <jeffro256> So far BS on transparent chains like BTC fails the Daubert Standard, but I guess that US courts don't care about that anymore
04:21:05 <CEO_of_Linux> the BS theory would work better for an individual caught using parallel construction. but this was a large operation that conssitently gave them multiple results
04:21:12 <BlueyHealer> On one hand, I REALLY want for something less resource-intensive than crypto to fill the "non-KYC payment" niche, but at least this implementation is not it. I wonder if there's any way forward with the core technology?
04:22:11 <CEO_of_Linux> there are cryptos which aren't resource intensive. but they're not as robust i guess
04:22:45 <BlueyHealer> Like?
04:22:56 <CEO_of_Linux> the ones that use proof of stake
04:23:36 <BlueyHealer> Ah, that. Yeah, that's kinda concerning. Also, is the resource intensivity that much lower? Either way, that seems so easily controllable so idk if there even is any point in that direction...
04:24:03 <CEO_of_Linux> it's much lower yeah
04:24:49 <BlueyHealer> Like, I still hope that we figure something less resource-intense eventually.
04:26:29 <br-m> <jeffro256> Alledegely... > <CEO_of_Linux> the BS theory would work better for an individual caught using parallel construction. but this was a large operation that conssitently gave them multiple results
07:06:58 <chiselfuse> if i have a wallet seed and no key images or knowledge of whether any funds were ever present on it, would putting it in the gui show me all historical incoming transactions to it or would i have to manually force the gui to calculate all possible addresses in all possible accounts ((2^32)^2 i think?) for it to scan the blockchain for old incoming tx's to any of them?
07:14:52 <br-m> <rbrunner7> chiselfuse: If it's the seed of a wallet that was used "normally" it's enough to just restore and let the GUI wallet app do its work; just make sure to give it the correct restore height (before any transactions happened) and it will find transactions to the main "4" address and also transactions to subaddresses in any accounts that were used.
07:15:59 <chiselfuse> rbrunner7: really? how does that work?
07:18:55 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> The lookahead generates/scans the first 50 account and 200 subaddresses of each of them
07:19:10 <br-m> <rbrunner7> Not sure what you mean with "really". If nothing really special happened with the wallet, accounts and subaddresses with low numbers were used, and it will catch those
07:19:48 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> If funds are found on any if those, the lookahead is offset by the last address or account with funds on it
07:21:13 <chiselfuse> ofrnxmr: and if funds aren't found it stops after 50x200 accounts?
07:21:32 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> yes
07:22:05 <chiselfuse> ofrnxmr: but isn't that unreliable? what if someone had used account 51 and none of the preceeding ones
07:22:59 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> Then you change the lookahead before scanning the block those txs were in, or when you create/restore the wallet
07:23:31 <chiselfuse> is there an option for that in the gui or do i use the cli
07:23:53 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> Use the cli
07:24:24 <br-m> <ofrnxmr> Easiest way is to use the commandline flag when restoring the wallet
07:26:27 <chiselfuse> ofrnxmr: which commandline flag are you talking about
07:28:05 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Are you on linux?
07:34:57 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> ./monero-wallet-cli --help | grep subaddress
07:38:05 <br-m> <rbrunner7> "but isn't that unreliable?" In theory, yes. As a prank, or to scam you, somebody can send funds to subaddress #1,000,000. You will never find those funds unless you get to know somehow which index was used.
07:39:02 <br-m> <rbrunner7> But under normal circumstances this all does not really apply and you could as well worry that in the next second an asteroid will hit your house, and that's the end of the story ...
07:39:53 <chiselfuse> ofrnxmr: oh, i thought you were talking of a cli flag to the gui
07:41:31 <chiselfuse> rbrunner7: yea i guess. i still wonder how expensive it would be to scan (2^32)^2 addresses just to be exhaustive
07:41:54 <chiselfuse> afaik the account is int32 and so is the address index
07:47:35 <br-m> <rbrunner7> I am pretty sure that with the way it's currently implemented your RAM would not be enough to hold the necessary lookup tables, and even if, preparing those tables might take days.
07:48:55 <br-m> <rbrunner7> Seraphis (which won't get implemented) had a way to solve this problem, interestingly, but the necessary data was one of the reasons Seraphis addresses would have been very long.
14:58:04 <br-m> <anhdres:matrix.org> PSA in about 1hr there's a community meeting at #monero-community to discuss many things Monerokon, some info at https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1417
15:08:38 <BlueyHealer> I keep mistaking Monerokon for another conference that's in the middle of nowhere. This one's actually in Europe so hope to make it there eventually)
15:32:08 <br-m> <ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Monerotopia? In mexico?
15:39:08 <BlueyHealer> Yeah, I think that one
15:40:25 <BlueyHealer> It's just kinda weird that it's in Mexico of all places
15:41:18 <nioc> an alternative to being help in murica 
15:41:26 <BlueyHealer> Always wondered: is there some lore to this? Sorry if this is offensive.
15:41:53 <nioc> *being held
15:44:33 <moneromooo> *being held down and shot point blank
15:55:24 <nioc> o_0
15:59:54 <moneromooo> Isn't that that they do nowadays when they don't like you ?
16:01:30 <moneromooo> Well, we've had that in the UK too, mind.
16:01:42 <moneromooo> Just a lot less.
16:01:51 <BlueyHealer> I mean I'm asking outside of jokes
16:02:16 <BlueyHealer> btw is Mexico even safe to travel to for someone white and almost middle-class?
16:04:39 <BlueyHealer> (again, sorry, just mostly wanted to ask about the lore)
16:19:09 <br-m> <gan:skhron.org> BlueyHealer: Yes? people from the U.S travel to Mexico all the time
16:19:11 <br-m> <gan:skhron.org> also define "white", most Mexicans won't be able to tell that you're an European, if we're talking about stupid skin-color classification, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mexicans then
16:19:14 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> Tehehe, banned in -community by mister plowsof, IRC bridge can't relay messages from IRC to Matrix, of my username, others' work.
16:19:24 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> Comical state of affairs.
16:19:27 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> Hopefully y'all have a great meeting in there. 🤷
16:19:37 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> DataHoarder[m]: Please let me know if you figure out why my IRC messages aren't passing through; I know this is not your fault. ^_^
16:20:02 <DataHoarder[m]> yeah, will have to schedule some time with you to debug
16:20:17 <DataHoarder[m]> sorry, nothing I could do besides a restart + enable debug mode there
16:20:49 <DataHoarder[m]> you are seen on monerologs at least
16:22:51 <DataHoarder[m]> can you try to chat on this room on IRC side?
16:23:06 <BlueyHealer> gan, yeah, I mean for a European
16:23:47 <DataHoarder> dukenukem: ^
16:27:56 <DataHoarder[m]> @rottenwheel:unredacted.org: on the banlist of the matrix room dukenukem (Rotten) @irc_dukenukem:monero.social is listed
16:28:10 <DataHoarder[m]> so your IRC nick is also banned on the Matrix side
16:28:50 <DataHoarder[m]> the bridge cannot join/type using your puppet. about the IRC counterpart not seeing them, it might be that triggering an early skip so they don't dump to debug log, so that might be fine.
16:30:12 <DataHoarder> I think the bot could send some feedback back to the source via a direct notice when that fails
16:31:43 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Why is Rotten banned? 
16:32:53 <DataHoarder> probably something to bring up after the current community meeting, it was a while ago. but they saw necessary to do both sides
16:33:17 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> a bit silly solution, isnt it?
16:34:09 <DataHoarder> well afaik they were banned on matrix, then whatever was going on made it continue using the irc nick after being banned, so got banned that way too
16:34:39 <DataHoarder> I can't remember what happened, and I'm not the one that set the bans, just bringing up the reason why the bridge could not bridge the messages
16:38:08 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> DataHoarder: It was a ridiculous as, I said I won't stop asking for my revuoxmr X credentials and our brilliant "CCS coordinator" from Britain decided to take my word on it, then banned both ends.
16:38:14 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> That's the summary of the situation.
16:38:21 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> @slowbeardigger:matrix.org: That's why. ^^
16:38:41 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> Credentials that he has not handed, to date, for the record.
16:39:11 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> I see
16:39:14 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> https://nitter.privacyredirect.com/revuoxmr my X profile, not his. No matter whatever he does, or says. https://x.com/revuoxmr
16:39:22 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> and i can notice all of that form the drama on the voting
16:39:40 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> Plow is a bad actor and should be treated as such. Simple as.
16:39:58 <br-m> <rottenwheel:unredacted.org> Thanks for your insights, DataHoarder. =]
16:41:46 <BlueyHealer> what is happening
16:42:25 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Monero drama
16:42:40 <DataHoarder> #monero-community meeting on https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1418 with MoneroKon drama as main item https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/1417
16:50:55 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> +1 to for 2-person custody, no ajs
16:50:55 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Looks like this is the leading side
16:54:45 <dukenukem> I'm fine with 2-person custody, ajs and core eligible, fine. :)
16:56:02 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> Yep
16:56:06 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> seems like the right thing to do
16:56:21 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> its good to keep it "decentralized" 
16:58:50 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> just a matter of making sure to have the right measures to deal with it
17:53:48 <RavFX> Someone maybe here redirected me to ##fix_your_connection probably 2 days ago when one of my vps was shitting tungsten bricks. Fixed but out of my control. Next time I will kill my bouncer if I notice.
18:06:10 <DataHoarder> afaik RavFX it was join/parting quick
18:06:19 <DataHoarder> and spamming the rooms
18:06:51 <DataHoarder> That's their kind way of telling even if out of your control
18:22:43 <br-m> <pw:xmr.mx> fucking heard it all now > <BlueyHealer> btw is Mexico even safe to travel to for someone white and almost middle-class?
18:27:55 <BlueyHealer> Heard what?
18:47:10 <dukenukem> wut.
18:49:17 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> If is a Spanish speaking country, just go to touristic areas, and even there be careful  > <BlueyHealer> (again, sorry, just mostly wanted to ask about the lore)
18:49:23 <br-m> <slowbeardigger:matrix.org> being "safe" is relative xd
18:50:54 <br-m> <ravfx:xmr.mx> Mexico is fine, as long as you don't do stupid
18:52:36 <BlueyHealer> I mean someone replied "** heard it all now" and I was confused what exactly were they referring to.
18:53:59 <br-m> <me:afk.pm> It was in reply to a previous Matrix message
18:54:18 <br-m> <me:afk.pm> Guess it's not bridged properly