00:02:47 blockchain bloat, wallet sync bloat, etc etc etc 00:02:47 pre fcmp, yes, decoy elimination 00:03:16 not just because its public, but from the size of the tx itself 00:05:16 and, ofc, bloat is worse with fcmp 00:06:22 like, oh look, i can store a dns entry today for 1.5kb, but it hurts privacy >> i can store one tomorrow for 7kb but it doesnt hurt privacy, it just hurts ux of every wallet user and node runner 00:07:01 and, ofc, that 7kb is amplified by the number of nodes 00:07:59 if someone need privacy to use the internet, he can use tor 00:07:59 tor allow user to use the internet assuming the site he want to go isnt hostile agains tor user 00:08:17 tor can resolv normal dns 00:08:28 yeup ^ 00:08:42 or if u want to store garbage data, use bsv or some shit 00:08:44 DNS can be "decentralied" aka, owned by the people who own the thing, like ns1.getmonero.org, ns2.getmonero.org, ns3.getmonero.org, etc, etc 00:09:11 xmr.mx can provide DNS services 00:09:23 i agree. but monero blockchain is already big, i think this is just worth it. blockchain is the only solution to decentralized dns and monero is one of the most decentralized (thanks to randomx) and has great cypherpunk ethos. 00:09:23 also it doesnt store dns records, just 32 bytes ed25519 public key and 32 bytes name. dns resolution is then made by connecting to authoritative dns server at port 53 of the i2p/tor service derived from the key. 00:09:35 no, it is not already big 00:09:52 stressnet is already larger than mainnet in just a few months 00:10:11 it stored 64 bytes PLUS 7kb garbaage tx 00:10:27 multiplied by number of nodes 00:10:58 "blockchaiun is bla bla" 00:11:01 ever heard of namecoin? 00:11:10 why dont you use a blockchain that was invented for that purpose 00:11:35 where txs arent fkn 50MB for PUBLIC data 00:11:55 use a chain that has PUBLIC storage then, like wth? 00:13:08 because it won't work out fine. it doesn't have any value on its own except being the name coin and no adoption. it is better to use something established. i understand the criticism about blockchain bloat and i accept it, i just believe it is worth it. 00:13:23 i think your service is cancer 00:13:27 Something established is DNS, it exist since somewhere in the 70's or something 00:13:28 and is why i hate txextra 00:13:55 And everyone can query them without extra crust added 00:13:57 becasue of people like you, who think i should have to sync your garbage data onto my node and wallet 00:16:28 messages should be sent in a sidechannel, off chain, or on a chain built for such, not embedded in my history forever. this isnt bitcoin, where bloat is insignificant and nearly free 00:17:18 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: anyone can do dust transactions to cause bloat. you really think only one name claim transaction is that chaotic? the txextra size there is almost meaningless compared to the base size. 00:17:40 it used to be 100kb and now it is 1kb 00:18:04 how is that insignifcant? thats 66% increase to the tx 00:18:47 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: it is not a stupid message, it is simple 64 bytes name-key per claim. minimum for 1 year. is it really that bad? 00:18:47 you can't send to a side channel because that's the whole reason it needs blockchain. 00:18:58 its permanant 00:19:00 not 1 year 00:19:30 do you think data just falls off of the blockchain after 1yr? 00:19:37 no i meant xns name claims, at worst one name would be burned for minimum 1 year. so 64 bytes a year 00:19:52 come on it is only 64 bytes. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> how is that insignifcant? thats 66% increase to the tx 00:20:11 like 2% increase 00:20:14 its 1.564kb (and will be 7kb) 00:20:27 multiplied by 10000 00:20:38 The website is on a server 00:20:38 the dns can be owned by the same people who own the server(s), if they adhere to the same security standard and don't use 10 years old Linux then it should be fine. 00:20:38 Having decentralized bloat-inducing DNS that require using to install extra thing to query, for a site that sit on a server, is not useful (imo) 00:20:51 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: it is for any unspent output though not about txextra 00:20:57 And normal DNS are technically decentralized (if your not using cloudflare...) 00:21:03 and are using your own 00:21:15 It's just decentralized... on L1 Internet 00:21:41 nono, ravfx, we need to store dns on a blockchain that costs as much as possible for uninterested parties to store it 00:22:08 @ravfx:xmr.mx: cant state actors shut it down if they really want? aren't you trusting a registrar and paying with fiat money? 00:22:25 @eravsar:raubritter.org: They can just steal the server on where the site is hosted at that point, what is the difference 00:22:47 if they wanted to steal monero domain names they would already done so 00:23:02 @ravfx:xmr.mx: there is a huge difference. they can just censor your domain is one thing, stealing your computer is another thing. 00:23:09 these are just nfts all over again 00:23:24 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: useful at least 00:23:31 not in the slightest 00:23:47 a car is useful. a car that takes 40 gallons to travel 6 feet, is not 00:24:08 And there is the eggs in the chicken problem too as a bonus 00:24:08 DNS are hosted on monero blockchain 00:24:08 You want monero 00:24:08 You need access to monero blockchain to query DNS[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/4Oyah6ILMU91WXJX ] 00:24:15 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: at least you can have the car 00:24:37 there are cars that are built for travel 00:24:52 @ravfx:xmr.mx: it is not necessary, use i2p/tor nodes. monero also has optional i2p p2p transport afaik 00:25:06 it doesnt have i2p p2p transport 00:25:07 Yeah, people who need or want to use theses tool can totally use them 00:25:29 But people who just need access to basic information or software should not be required to use/learn said tools 00:25:46 and it can never, if people like you want to add garbage 7kb tx spam 00:25:52 I pay for some DNS with monero > <@eravsar:raubritter.org> cant state actors shut it down if they really want? aren't you trusting a registrar and paying with fiat money? 00:26:02 Can just make .onion or something 00:26:05 for the private layer 00:26:10 .i2p work too 00:26:39 there are like 50 different solutions for this. ens, unstoppabledomains, namecoin, etc etc etc, layer2s etc etc 00:26:47 why having to use blockchain based DNS, I don't understand, I never even queried one of such crypto dns 00:27:02 it is another discussion. but if you just gatekeep something because it is not convenient it can never get established enough to become convenient > <@ravfx:xmr.mx> But people who just need access to basic information or software should not be required to use/learn said tools 00:27:04 stuffing it inside of the most wasteful method, is something claude would do 00:27:05 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: viva la fragmentation 00:27:19 lets add another option 00:27:20 have to install 32 services to resolve them all! 00:27:24 maybe people will choose the dumbest one 00:27:36 lets use monero! 00:27:44 I also don't understand why DNS should be on the monero blockchain. 00:27:56 @ravfx:xmr.mx: is there any other way to achieve truly decentralized dns? any design slowly turns into blockchain. 00:27:58 make sure ppl need to sync 700gbs over the course of 14 weeks to resolve a fkn domain 00:28:03 Why not use Matrix as a fileserver 00:28:37 youre 1 person, with 1 "service", imagine if everybody did that 00:28:52 like eigenwallet adding fuckin atomic swap messaging to monero 00:28:56 this is a fkn shitshow 00:28:58 this is not a service. i am not selling anything 00:29:10 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: i agree it is stupid 00:29:27 Just get everyone reliable people in the space to own a server or vps or whatever, each can run there own nsX.getmonero.org 00:29:27 We still need a way to vet who can update DNS but then you have 15 monero DNS slave 00:29:27 no blockchain involved 00:29:27 no L2 or L3 involved 00:29:29 but not the same thing. 00:29:51 what particl (basicswap) did, is they added a messaging service that runs ON TOP of the blockchain. messages expire and are not stored on chain 00:30:13 what p2pool did, is added a SIDECHAIN 00:31:19 i concede that txextra will continue to be abused as long as it exists, and fcmp codifies its existence 00:31:24 or rather, carrot does 00:31:46 the reason this shit has to be a cancer on monero is, it wants to use the consensus of monero. that's basically it. no point in arguing with this. i accept it is causing bloat but i am saying it is worth it. and +64 bytes compared to base transaction size is not really that bad 00:31:49 so, people are going to use it 00:32:18 what is the base transaction used for? 00:32:52 to put it in a block 00:33:11 thats all? 00:33:27 so its a dust tx just to store the data 00:34:18 someone can just do cheap dust transactions if they want to bloat the blockchain. +64 bytes xns does is nothing compared to any ordinary unspent output. 00:34:39 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: not dust, you burn 0.01xmr per year 00:34:47 What if we need to add extra IP to the DNS ban list, that will be a big TX, a critical one at that... What if chain take 30 min to confirm eet, like badluck forever confirmation (it append). 00:35:00 we should store the dns banlist on the blockchain 00:35:10 What if the people that added the spy network are also flooding monero with high fee transaction to prevent the DNS upgrade to occur 00:36:09 @ravfx:xmr.mx: in that case ordinary monero transactions are also in risk 00:36:21 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: That could work, in addition to DNS and .txt 00:36:21 new nodes that sync, ideally, need access to the last banlist 00:36:41 @ravfx:xmr.mx: we should update it every block 00:36:50 send 40 txs to fill the list 00:37:05 or better, 1 tx per entry 00:37:11 Oh I see, send 40 txs every block to keep it updated! 00:37:17 sound good, Approved! 00:37:52 nice jokes 00:38:00 who's joking? 00:38:06 this is your idea, just scaled up 00:39:56 just tell me why +64 bytes per name per year is that bad compared to base transaction size 00:39:56 it is like only 2.5% increase per transaction. these transactions at least burn 0.01xmr. 00:40:16 and you get unstoppable names. come on 00:40:36 I should never have blabed about why monero used cloudflare 😂 00:41:37 @eravsar:raubritter.org: unstoppable names 99.9% of people can't resolv 00:42:26 @ravfx:xmr.mx: are you saying because a tech is new it should be avoided 00:42:28 what makes your idea holy, but its not ok when eigenwallet wants to do the same to send messages? 00:42:29 And well, I made a point before, you need to sync monero blockchain to resolv them 00:42:30 And you need to revolv them to get the monero software needed to resolve them 00:43:42 @eravsar:raubritter.org: non, What I said is that it's won't get standarised into OS so only a very small subset of user will be able to resolve them 00:45:37 We have the fix for limited IP 00:45:37 It's called IPV6. 00:45:37 It's been there since DECADES, to fix a REAL problem, and there is what??? 45% 00:45:37 [... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/ysbph6ILTlRtSFdC ] 00:46:19 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: because this is the only way to achieve unstoppable names. tell me any other architecture that has a global name state without trust assumptions. 00:46:19 namecoin, handshake, ens whatever all exist because of this. but they are failed except ens because they didnt have the strong consensus in the beginning by providing another kind of value. ens succeeded on its own field because it inherits everything ethereum has. xns does the same for monero but for more practical reasons. 00:46:47 If to fix issues it take decades 00:46:47 To fix less important issue it will take how much time for full adoption (because you would not want a user wanting to use monero to first need to get monero to be able to get monero right?) 00:47:28 no, xns doesnt do the same. and namecoin is alive and well 00:47:53 Yeah, namecoin still alive (never used it) 00:48:37 it is alive and well but no practical use 00:48:47 id rather everyone switch to ens and namecoin, at what, a few bytes for the whole transaction, than 7kb per domain name, every year 00:49:21 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: so you are only saying that because monero transactions itself are huge? 00:49:27 or better, dont use a blockchaina at all 🧠 00:49:37 if they expire after 1 year, you dont need a blockchain 00:49:46 At least a user would be able to get namecoin to be able to resolv monero, there is that (would still put a break in adoption) 00:49:49 yes, because monero txs are huge, and private 00:49:50 @eravsar:raubritter.org: as i said this applies to any ordinary monero transaction 00:50:12 any ordinary monero transaction is used for commerce 00:50:19 @ravfx:xmr.mx: what do they resolve namecoin with lol 00:50:30 and we accept the weight because of the privacy 00:50:46 you dont need privacy for some public message 00:50:48 @eravsar:raubritter.org: Something they can find on normal internet using normal DNS? 00:50:50 okay you are right about that 00:51:01 @ravfx:xmr.mx: do the same for monero 00:51:20 yeah, that was the initial point (why monero use cockflare instead of there own DNS) 00:51:23 @eravsar:raubritter.org: xns is not made to download monero software 00:51:50 @ravfx:xmr.mx: i didnt answer to that message, someone started talking about it and topic got detailed 00:53:26 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: yeah about that you are right. but there is no other blockchain network that's decentralized as good as monero. so maybe worth the trouble. 00:53:56 worth it to you. not people who have to download this shit on their wallets or nodes 00:54:31 on a public blockchain, its not as bad. look at bsv, they just added the whole monero source tree on their blockchain 00:54:52 removing txextra wont fix that though. and any dust transaction results in the same thing. why especially make xns the scapegoat 00:55:00 i have to scan and "decrypt" your public messages 00:55:37 for the same reason this room is not encrypted, is the reason why storing public data in an encrypted storage is nonsensical 00:55:52 its simply waste 00:56:23 waste of space, waste of compute, for EVERY person who interacts with the blockchain, not just consumers of your product 00:56:53 there is no public blockchain with randomx pow sadly. only if monero had transparent transactions... jk 00:57:10 and the space and compute is not negligible. it might be for your service alone, but imagine if every service in 2026 decided the best place to stuff arbirary data was into the tx 00:57:34 wownero will have randomx soon 00:57:42 or there is that exploited garbage zephyr 00:58:40 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: difference is blockchain is a necessity for decentralized names. it is a justified cancer 00:58:42 also, why randomx? this is the type of thing that is good for PoS chains 00:59:34 it is not a justified cancer. it is stupid to store public data on a private blockchain 01:01:05 again, i bring up p2pool and particl/basicswap 01:01:32 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: i never understood PoS. 01:01:32 randomx is so that it can actually be decentralized even with little effort. even for small networks. 01:01:34 neither of them needs to store data on the base blockchain for data that is temporary 01:02:01 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: xns data has to be permanent 01:02:35 smsg / particl lets you extend the life of the data by paying for it 01:03:27 they have a whole ass marketplace that runs on smsg. shares the underlying blockchains consensus, but stores nothing on the blockchain 01:03:49 the onnly people that decrypt the messages, are the people who they are addressed to 01:05:46 particl also has ringct, ct, and transparent mode (w/ segwit). blockchains exist for non-monetary usages. private blockchains are the least ideal, lowest viability, and worst experience for doing so 01:05:59 you have stuff like zano as well. why not use zano 01:11:47 paying with what? their own blockchain currency? leads to same outcome > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> smsg / particl lets you extend the life of the data by paying for it 01:12:06 interesting > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> they have a whole ass marketplace that runs on smsg. shares the underlying blockchains consensus, but stores nothing on the blockchain 01:12:54 @eravsar:raubritter.org: Irrelevancy? 01:13:53 it doesnt lead to same outcome, because the txs are 200 bytes and transparent (very little compute) 01:17:56 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: still not as established as monero. look i get all your concerns but i am saying xns itself is not that catastrophic (since any dust transaction can lead to same thing). maybe it is not the most elegant way to handle this but tradeoffs just make sense for me. it is not even about tx_extra at all. 01:19:03 its about storing public data on a private blockchain, and forcing every participant to unravel your spam 01:19:30 people know and use monero. it already has the decentralized consensus needed for this purpose. it has the liquidity. it has everything. at return you get decentralized dns. meanwhile "risking" to bloat the blockchain, meanwhile anything can do that. yeah it is not most elegant to have something public in a private thing, but really is it that bad? 01:19:53 yes, it is that bad 01:20:14 if it wasnt, there wouldnt have been week, years of debates about nuking txextra 01:20:15 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: any dust transaction unravels a spam, whether it is necessary or not. at least with this there is a minimum burn amount 01:21:15 https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/6668 01:21:36 @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: the debates were mostly concerned about decoy elimination afaik, which is solved with fcmp that they even work on carrot now, accepting that public and private parts of the blockchain can be considered as isolated from another. that's why keeping tx_extra is finalized with fcmp, am i wrong? 01:22:49 no, they werent 01:23:09