<sgp_> I just naturally see the finality layer as the next progression of that. In a way, making those checkpoints less centralized, via a sensible PoS impl

as soon as short term is in and maintenance is kept on them for any changes/improvements, focus should be given to all other options, medium or long term

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @sgp_: How much xmr do you think has been seized be governments?

<sgp_> If you have another decentralized option other than PoS, I'm all ears. I just know "rely on 5 people to run DNS servers" (or whatever similar number) isn't a permanent answer

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> I personally will (probably) never be in favor of pos that hands control of the network to people who don't contribute to it

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @sgp_: 1*

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Not intended to be permanent

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> But hopefully puts us back on stable ground, and rains on would-be attackers parades

<sgp_> New idea: XMRc, or Monero contribution tokens. 100% distributed to the core team, and they issue them out to "super good devs only" which are then used for PoS, done 😅 obviously kidding

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> In the early discussions about hybridpos, i had spoken about proof of pow. This being that you could only stake coinbases

<sgp_> Anyway I'll shut up for now about PoS, but I'm a) glad DNS is being done now, and b) really hoping that the CCS is merged

<sgp_> Because I consider being reliant on centralized DNS an "emergency", personally

it took a grim trigger to kickstart the real part

better later than never :)

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> This is similar to dns checkpoints, in that miners control the stake.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> i think its very possible for bad actors to own over 10% of the global supply, and would hate for us governmens strategic monero confiscated reserve to have power over the blockchain

<sgp_> Grim tiggers are how it always happens unfortunately. Same with spam

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Also, do you have any idea how fast monero was mined? Im at like blocj 2000 on testnet with probabky over 100kxmr

so much game theory, but the other side is a pigeon shitting over the board and it just flipped it

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Thats 3 days

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> If monero had a much smoother emission, i might think pos was viable. But the emission curve was a scam when bytecoin did it, but "fair" when monero didnt change it (just because it was "public")

<elongated:matrix.org> So let’s stick to a couple of ppl act as finality layer

<elongated:matrix.org> The bad actors can mine and do pos > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> In the early discussions about hybridpos, i had spoken about proof of pow. This being that you could only stake coinbases

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and non-actors (governments with 2million+xmr), cexs, and other bad actors can just do pos

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @elongated:matrix.org: Pos finality is like 500ppl, (more likely a handful of staking pools)

<elongated:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Why just 500 ? Are you putting a minimum of 1k xmr?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Because it doesnt scale

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Those are lukes numbers, not mine

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> I thought 100, and he corrected me @ ~500

<scottytimberlake:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: 500 XMR????

<ofrnxmr> 500 stakers

<ofrnxmr> Thats more like 6000xmr avg oer persob if 3million xmr are staked

<scottytimberlake:matrix.org> Oh sorry or is that 500 users? 500 XMR to stake is almost as bad as the ETH validator requirement

<ofrnxmr> 500xmr stake oer person is onky 250kxmr

<ofrnxmr> its more like, exchange A will have 200/500 stakers

<scottytimberlake:matrix.org> 500 XMR ~$150k at current prices. 32 ETH is required for solo staking

<ofrnxmr> Its much more than 500xmr

<scottytimberlake:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: I'm talking about the requirement for solo staking. If it's minimum 500 XMR, PoS will not work

<ofrnxmr> 500 people means the min would be more like 6000 xmr

<ofrnxmr> Or, conservatively, 2000

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> A 500xmr minimum might be possible, but the largest whales will squeeze you out by splitting their wallets up into 501 xmr

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Its not like anyone who wants to stake, can stake. Its the 500 largest wallets (or some other selection criteria) get to stake

<elongated:matrix.org> Eth has 10000+ solo stakers

<ofrnxmr> And finality layer is limited to ~500

<elongated:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Why would it be limited though, I guess we need to wait for the book

<ofrnxmr> @elongated:matrix.org: Thats over 1billion usd staked solo?

<ofrnxmr> @elongated:matrix.org: he spoke on it before

<elongated:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Why it can’t scale when eth can do it ?

<elongated:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: stakecat.space/blog/solo-stakers-arent-going-away

<ofrnxmr> maybe has something to do with the non-public nature of the outputs

<elongated:matrix.org> We have a good number of ppl who run nodes without any incentive, pos will surely double it

<ofrnxmr> more nodes isnt a great thing

<ofrnxmr> Adds delays to propagation, increased bandwidth, etc

<elongated:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Yah I meant we can have same number of validators

<v4n1m4_:matrix.org> hey all pretty sure I had a transaction caught up in the reorg.

<v4n1m4_:matrix.org> Wondering if it's sionara to the funds or if there's a solution as I can't send the inputs from feather anymore

<ofrnxmr> Did you send the funds or receive them?

<ofrnxmr> force feather to connect to only the monerodevs nodes (disable "let feather manage nodes")

<ofrnxmr> If you are running and using your own node, run monerod flush_txpool

<v4n1m4_:matrix.org> Potentially both. Not sure what actually got caught in the mess, just that the current inputs can't be spent. I'll give what you suggested a shot and report back.

<hbs:matrix.org> what matters is how distributed they are, a lot are on AWS unfortunately > <@elongated:matrix.org> Eth has 10000+ solo stakers

<interestingband:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Why would someone want to became a validator ?

<interestingband:matrix.org> Is there any incentive to do that ?

<syntheticbird> @interestingband:matrix.org: Delicious juicy fees and reward

<syntheticbird> Cooked by our Chef ofrn

<syntheticbird> Huh I mean ArticMine

<interestingband:matrix.org> fees are supposed to be small, so unimportant

<interestingband:matrix.org> reward ? you mean block reward ?

<interestingband:matrix.org> "Cooked by our Chef" it's funny that you have write permissions in MRL and I don't

<interestingband:matrix.org> emission of tokens without any proof of work (or something else ) means inflation of value of all issued tokens so far

<interestingband:matrix.org> it's basically the same scam as any token issued by government (aka currency)

<interestingband:matrix.org> and I doubt that kayabanerve understands that otherwise he would write a research paper that pushes state of art for PoS rather than a book

<interestingband:matrix.org> also I'm really sceptical about people who are writing books

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @interestingband:matrix.org you have an imposter here

<interestingband:matrix.org> idk

<interestingband:matrix.org> s/idk/idc/

validators decide who mines the block right? blocks.p2pool.observer

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Plow @interestingband:synod.im ban plz

potential validators could start creating a checklist for those approved to mine blocks. hmm

no proofs provided? no thank you, we dont know if you're paying your tithe fees

(test)the tithe fees to the foundation allow us to fund further development and research for the greater good

<interestingband:matrix.org> What is the point of censoring miners by validators ?

<interestingband:matrix.org> since every miner does real work (RandomX)

control / power / money - humans will be involved

i will ban the imposter, just waiting for matrix to load

<ofrnxmr> Ty

<monerobull:matrix.org> pow has become too cheap and abundant

<monerobull:matrix.org> you cant secure the chain with it if its dirt-cheap to rent large amounts for short term attacks

<ofrnxmr> Become?

<monerobull:matrix.org> the entire security design assumes getting the hardware to launch an attack is unfeasible

<monerobull:matrix.org> and it is

<ofrnxmr> no it doesnt

<monerobull:matrix.org> the hardware to get 10% of nethash would be ~75 million usd

<monerobull:matrix.org> renting 10% of nethash? tens of thousands

<ofrnxmr> Pos security does

<ofrnxmr> Is monero was 100k, pos might make sense

<monerobull:matrix.org> hardware cost is part of the pow security assumptions, or at the very least was at some point

<ofrnxmr> us military budget is like 700b per year

<ofrnxmr> Tether and fed can print $ out of thin air. if gov has 2million seized xmr, thats enough to have 500 staking wallets with 4000xnr each

<ofrnxmr> @monerobull:matrix.org: Pow starts out as ~0$ in network security

<monerobull:matrix.org> most networks start with $0

<ofrnxmr> and most low cap pos neteorks are bought up and hoarded by whales

<monerobull:matrix.org> you're really arguing that hardware cost was never a factor in determining PoW security?

<ofrnxmr> Or already owned by ninjamine emissions curves (like moneros)

<ofrnxmr> @monerobull:matrix.org: No, im arguing that cost is always relative

<hbs:matrix.org> Which doesn't represent a large budget, therefore very low parlimentary oversight, which is not the case to sustain hashpower rental > <@ofrnxmr> Tether and fed can print $ out of thin air. if gov has 2million seized xmr, thats enough to have 500 staking wallets with 4000xnr each

<interestingband:matrix.org> defense is about having protection with cost to break that is on par with value of anything being protected, so even small entities can defend themself by making it's unprofitable to attack them > <@ofrnxmr> Is monero was 100k, pos might make sense

<interestingband:matrix.org> it's possible to break any protection, but it's not always profitable

<interestingband:matrix.org> And now the question, what is the thickness of protection provided by PoW relatively to the value inside ?

<interestingband:matrix.org> 0.6 XMR per block * 10 conf = 3k$ for all txs ?

<interestingband:matrix.org> :D

<interestingband:matrix.org> But the value of tx in the worst is whole circulation supply, so 6b$ protected by 3k$

<interestingband:matrix.org> :D

<interestingband:matrix.org> But you can't just increase inflation to make it thicker

<interestingband:matrix.org> because it would mean that tx is safe to accept when whole currency was inflated by 6b$ after every tx

<ofrnxmr> 1800 for 10 blocks - which is an issue with market cap / adoption, not emission/inflation

<interestingband:matrix.org> it will make token completely useless, like who t f needs a token with so huge inflation ?

<ofrnxmr> Yep

<interestingband:matrix.org> You don't get it

<interestingband:matrix.org> no matter what price of XMR in USD, reward in XMR is too small relatiley to the value of txs in the worst case

<interestingband:matrix.org> But PoW is still needed to have something real behind every issued token

<ofrnxmr> if the entire mcap was being transacted, youd expect many mb blocks, which would be in the tens to hundreds of xmr in fees

<ofrnxmr> Which is obv not enough budget = value

<interestingband:matrix.org> In the worst case double spending is one transaction

<interestingband:matrix.org> I'm thinking about protection that works in the worst case

<interestingband:matrix.org> since this is what everyone wants, I think

<interestingband:matrix.org> "tail emission" is just an illusion of protection

<interestingband:matrix.org> but it probably works from ideological point of view, at least as long as no one tries to contest it by doing actual attack, :D

<ofrnxmr> Staking 50% of the supply doesnt solve this, especially when the stakers have the most to gain due to artificially low circulating liquidity

<interestingband:matrix.org> speak in numbers instead of "the most to gain"

<ofrnxmr> If the coin is trading at $10, but 80% of the supply is staked / removed from circulation, then the true value of retail coins is $2 once stake is sold

<interestingband:matrix.org> if implemented properly it should solve it, since no matter who does the attack, it's not profitable

<ofrnxmr> stakers are always in the profit (as long as there is demand), since they are artificially squeezing the supply

<interestingband:matrix.org> But nobody would want to mine X amount of a token and lock 50% of it forever, because it's the only safe condition under which it's safe to do transactions

<interestingband:matrix.org> The true value of a token is lower bouned by PoW

<interestingband:matrix.org> it's not a scam of regular PoS where there is nothing behind

<interestingband:matrix.org> And do you know at least one project that implemented it ? I don't think that there is any atm

<interestingband:matrix.org> That's why I asked kayabanerve about successful PoS, he is about to write a book on how to PoS can be implmeented

<interestingband:matrix.org> :D

<interestingband:matrix.org> It's probably abitrary number, since in reality efficient implementation of p2p network for a know set of nodes (validators) should be able to handle many more number of participants > <@ofrnxmr> And finality layer is limited to ~500

<ofrnxmr> I don't > <@interestingband:matrix.org> And do you know at least one project that implemented it ? I don't think that there is any atm

<interestingband:matrix.org> xcancel.com/Justin_Bons/status/1958216006071189907#m, this tweet tries to say something about "security" but I don't think these numbers are right

<interestingband:matrix.org> and

<interestingband:matrix.org> that person tried to calculate security budget of xmr annually, but who t f needs it ?

<atomfried:matrix.org> For me the biggest red flag for anything pos/validator related is that the amount of xmr confiscated and hold by gobs is unknown.

<atomfried:matrix.org> Thats an immediate big NO for me

<interestingband:matrix.org> if security budiget should be calculated for every tx after number of confirmation required by most recepients

this is zcash' path to PoS electric-coin-company.github.io/tfl…troduction/a-path-to-pos-zcash.html

"Transitioning from Zcash NU5/NU6 PoW consensus to a PoW/PoS hybrid consensus protocol dubbed PoW+TFL."

<interestingband:matrix.org> @atomfried:matrix.org: It doesn't matter who owns the tokens if all of them are baked by PoW

their stepping stone to full PoS

<interestingband:matrix.org> since properly implemented slashing will take all of them from misbehaving entity

<interestingband:matrix.org> and if someone is ok with doing an attack that isn't profitable, then nothing can prevent that

<ofrnxmr> @interestingband:matrix.org: Thats what govs and qubic would and are doing

<ofrnxmr> Were not dealing with a profit driven attack

<interestingband:matrix.org> Nope, they are doing it for profit

<interestingband:matrix.org> you are wrong

<ofrnxmr> no they arent

<ofrnxmr> You are wrong. they lose more blocks than they would otherwise get if they mines straight up

<atomfried:matrix.org> Well i guess there is a "Propaganda" part of the attack, but looking at the qubic price this hasnt realy worked out and they are losing money

<ofrnxmr> They dont have enough hashrate to consistently win their races

<interestingband:matrix.org> double spending will bring them more profit than all these blocks mined so far

<interestingband:matrix.org> it's for profit

<interestingband:matrix.org> or they want someone else to do double spending

<interestingband:matrix.org> but it's about profit

<ofrnxmr> during their marathons, they are and will continue to be, mining at a loss

<monerobull:matrix.org> thats how you get fucking killed, seems too risky

<monerobull:matrix.org> imagine a qubic reorg fucks over a cartel

<interestingband:matrix.org> cartel uses more reliable ways, like gold bars long term, or physical cash short term, :D

<atomfried:matrix.org> @interestingband:matrix.org: Source? I made it up

<monerobull:matrix.org> shipping gold bars from spain to collumbia sounds like a logistical nightmare

<monerobull:matrix.org> moving the product is enough of a pain already

<interestingband:matrix.org> you transfer cash (of any currency you like) and store in gold bars (or any other physical objects that preserve their value), what isn't clear ?

<interestingband:matrix.org> @atomfried:matrix.org: that "propaganda" works only because there is a real possibility of doing double spending

<atomfried:matrix.org> @interestingband:matrix.org: Maybe the part where you ship billions in cash?

<interestingband:matrix.org> It's the most important innvotaion of cryptocurrency: decentralized consensus between untrusted entities that is resistant to external attacks; everything else is much easier to do > <@ofrnxmr> I don't

<interestingband:matrix.org> once you can coop with untrusted entities remotely in a safe it's a real threat to any govt

<interestingband:matrix.org> @atomfried:matrix.org: it depends on the distance and amount they need to transfer at once; But I just wanted to say that they will use any other more reliable way of value transafering than cryptocurrncies banned by govts

<interestingband:matrix.org> 1 million $ looks transferrable by a person, :D

<interestingband:matrix.org> Before I thought that cryptography is the hardest part, but it's not. Well, for some people it's stil hard, :D > <@interestingband:matrix.org> It's the most important innvotaion of cryptocurrency: decentralized consensus between untrusted entities that is resistant to external attacks; everything else is much easier to do

<interestingband:matrix.org> And consensus isn't "finality layer" since it must be deeply integrated into everything in order to work properly

<monerobull:matrix.org> ffs

<monerobull:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/EUNcdYZmlAiRidBOveqhHzDd.png (image.png)

<monerobull:matrix.org> can we NOT APPROVE KNOWN PHISHING OPERATIONS

<plowsof:matrix.org> other scams are available gist.github.com/plowsof/b2cd506336e72ab92fbe242d8c26ebb4

jeffro256 full-time development 2025Q3 is now fully funded! ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/jeffro256-full-time-2025Q3.html @luigi1111

nice

<plowsof:matrix.org> ccs.getmonero.org/funding-required

overfunded again

+0.998474383137

can I get my donation back?

what happens with funds in excess?

we have an accurate tally of the overfundings somewhere but the current amount listed here plowsof/scrape_ccs_fr 419435a

in some cases , a contributors overfunding has been returned to them - one case was where funding took a long time and they required help. another was simply decided to be awarded to the proposer upon completion

they currently get stolen (ccs wallet incident) or saved for a rainy day (jetfund)

i like the prospect of saving it for future thieves, very considerate

<monerobull:matrix.org> give em to me and ill double them within 2 years, ong ong

pumpxmr lol

<monerobull:matrix.org> plowsof:

<monerobull:matrix.org> do i get a commission on my jet fund contributions

<monerobull:matrix.org> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/cwOtPGFhcjHckQUxQcWIuyCw.png (image.png)

of course

<monerobull:matrix.org> these guys posted AI slop comments, begged for mercy claiming their "intern" did it and was "fired" and then kept spamming ai slop comments (multiple per minute)

I don't mind if they pay 1 XMR per AI slop comment from now on

<plowsof:matrix.org> +1

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Yeah. You need to respond and say that "sorry, my intern was incorrect. The cost is 10xmr for a third chance, and you may post AI comments at a rate of 1xmr per comment"

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Lmao

<plowsof:matrix.org> we have merch and hardware available if you need to upsell them for extra commission

<plowsof:matrix.org> its nice that "our intern did it and is fired" is a universal excuse now

intern was replaced with AI :D

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> fixed "sorry, my intern sent you misleading directions. She's been fired. The cost is 10xmr for a third chance, and you may post AI comments at a rate of 1xmr per comment"