My proposal.

z z @zz · 2 hours ago

absolutely useless bullshit from absolutely incompetent charlatan

@zz Member since February 02, 2022

He might as well name his account: "anti-mj"

mj-xmr[m]: wouldn't worry about it. Seems a troll of some sort.

Does it make sense to say that Monero will stay decentralized in the future even if the blockchain needs to grow hundreds of gigabytes per day to support 2nd and 3rd layers to support some sort of global financial system, if we assume that Moore's law continues, harddrives continue to increase in speed and size as they have been, and the internet gets faster at the rate it has been in most countries?

Well it would be better if the block chain grew as slowly as possible, or if we eventually discarded older overlapping blockchains after some amount of time on a hard cut off date.

Scalability is hard though

Am I?

lol

my honest comment on the Haveno DEX proposal repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/284#note_14696

Haveno is just like every other DEX startup out there on Ethereum that raised money from investors with the hope of earning money from trading fees. I am not sure why people would want to donate no-string-attached money for someone else to profit. It's much more normal to ask for investors to put up this money so they can be rewarded from the exchange's success (that they paid for)

Interesting, so its like walking into the Dragons den and asking for funds in return for a 0% stake in the company?

If they are successful then more power to them 👍️

plowsof[m]: exactly, that's how I see it

plowsof[m]: same with this fwiw, if they can pull this off then good for them I suppose

Can't we make it a DAO?

Haveno is necessary for KYC-free access to Monero (via cash by mail, plus cash in person and gold are being discussed).

LocalMonero.co is good, but it's a single closed-source centralized platform, which means it is less censorship-resistant and could be pressured by the state to close down or exclude people via KYC.

In comparison, Haveno is peer-to-peer and censorship-resistant by design. It's based on Bisq but has additional backend code and a completely new UI, which takes time, skill and effort to develop, so funding is necessary.

(BTW KYC exchanges don't count because they are financially exclusionary (requires ID and a bank account). KYC-free Bitcoin exchanges like HodlHodl or Bisq are very useful but it's nice to have on-ramps specifically for Monero.)

Also IDK if Haveno can easily find investors, since it's a pseudonymous project, not a registered company like Cake. But IDK how investments work.

Perfect. That doesn't have anything to do with the proposal, respectfully; nor what someone else was bringing up re: method of asking for funding through the CCS.

Haveno can't have too many eager investors when the person behind refuses to accept funding if that means others will take a cut out of the forthcoming profit. :)

CCS is a good funding method, since Haveno is important for the Monero community and ecosystem.

It's also open source, so you can fork it, if you want.

I doubt anyone would become rich from trading fees.

Anyways...

Hosting, maintenance and escrow services also take time and effort, so trading fees make sense.

Nobody is saying fees don't make sense...

Also the money is used to pay the salaries of the frontend dev team, not ErCiccione's wallet...

I think a lot of people here are thinking raising money like this is a problem, but seriously, look at literally every other no-KYC Ethereum DEX out there

they all raised money just fine

ETH has many investors, tokens, speculation, etc.

Who would invest in a Monero project, if not the Monero community and users (e.g. CCS)?

sgp_: In the examples you're citing, how do investors get a return on their investment?

I just don't want this to be lost in a discussion on whether people are excited about Haveno or think it's important. Of course it's important. But this is like Tesla asking for donations to design their cars, and then selling them to people later for profit. Normally that's what buying their stock is supposed to accomplish

Rucknium[m]: normally it's through a DAO token, but it doesn't have to be done this way

take RUNE on thorchain as one example

Instead of thinking about investments, think about the utility, i.e. an uncensorable peer-to-peer KYC-free way to buy Monero with cash (and maybe gold if it's added). Centralized closed source websites can be taken down. Peer-to-peer software is resistant to takedowns (as seen e.g. with cryptocurrency and torrents).

or it can be done without a blockchain as gasp an LLC or corp

Bisq is great but it's focused on Bitcoin. It would be easier to direct someone to Haveno, rather than say "First buy Bitcoin with Bisq then trade it for Monero".

LLCs and corps are KYC'ed, risky and incredibly vulnerable to state regulations and takedowns.

anarkiocrypto[m]: I would buy this is there would never be revenue coming in, but there will be revenue. This isn't like Monero development, this is like Tesla asking for donations to sell cars that they keep the profit of from said sale

anarkiocrypto[m]: make a DAO then like every other ethereum dex in existence

Open source + no DAO token = free entry into running Haveno = zero economic profits --> low fees for users --> higher adoption --> multiplicative network adoption effect.

Peer-to-peer software provides freedom and censorship-resistance that can't be found with centralized websites, or worse, compliant state-registered KYC'ed companies.

Rucknium[m]: I don't understand the logic you are trying to convey. It doesn't flow for me

Rucknium – The hosts and escrow mediators need to be reimbursed for their services. No one wants to pay for servers, maintain servers or deal with escrow disputes (customer service and investigation) out-of-pocket.

anarkiocrypto[m]: again.... so DAO. Look into Uniswap, Thorchain, Compound, etc......

AFAIK Monero doesn't support DAO or smart contracts.

And why add another blockchain into this (e.g. Ethereum) when it's a Monero project?

Haveno is also open source code. If you don't like the hosts/mediators, you can fork it and run a separate network on a different port with a different name.

Haveno will provide a huge and necessary value to the Monero ecosystem.

anarkiocrypto[m]: you don't need to, which is why companies exist. But now I'm talking in circles again and again

If multiple entities are able to set up running Haveno, then fees will be "bid down" until the revenue just covers cost.

anarkiocrypto[m]: so are basically all other ethereum DEXs

Companies are state-regulated and require government ID & state permission.

You can't solve a problem caused by the state (censorship, financial surveillance, financial exclusion) by using statist tools like registered companies.

yeah I'm going to stop arguing this point since this is going in circles for a solved problem

it's clear you don't like companies, but whether Haveno officially registers with some country/state somewhere or not, it needs to think like a startup company. Because it is one.

^

when the idea of a possible CCS was brought up so was the question of how to give back to the community if the CCS was funded

in the proposal they say that they will fund monero development

Meeting minutes from the first MAGIC Monero Fund committee meeting:

Also available on GitHub: