meeting in 2hr~ 16:00UTC monero-project/meta #747

Meeting time monero-project/meta #747

2. Greetings

hello everyone

hi

while we wait for people to come in, just wanted to share that a few ccs proposals have completed some of their milestones (namely the atomic swap gui proposal who we where asking for an update on) repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/commits/master

Hi!

Greetings

Hello

hola

glad to be here

Hi

Hi

Hi

Hi everyone

lets talk about the proposals we've mostly made a decision on , if anyone has any objections

a. [[monero-bash v2.0.0]](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/333) (hidden - author asks to postpone)

'hide' this from the ideas page yes/no

author wants that, correct hinto ?

yes, hidden

plowsof: Yes

Yes

b. [The-Monero-Moon-CCS-Proposal-August2022-John-Foss](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/336) (hidden - awaiting response from author)

Ive said it 100x, close

i've contacted johnfoss 25th October on reddit, the last reply from him was Oct 28 where he said he would replly on the 29th if he had time.

Moon should also ve removed from agenda "news" section - hasnt had a release in a long time

does anyone want to wait for a response?

plowsof: We dont like it

* We dont like it with Siren

i believe localmonero have an active newsletter than can replace them

Yes

Not me. Waited long enough. If foss doesnt went to engage now there is nothing stooping him from opening a ccs later when he cares

Monero standard is great

Close, please and thanks

ive pinged luigi1111 , so he should drop in soon/later

is there anyone here who wants monero moon to be funded right now?

No need to ask

going once.... twice.....

Gone

Next business, please

c. [Forgotsudo monero marketplace](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/340) (awaiting re submission of Web Of Trust milestone)

Would be nice to have at least a response from him before moving the proposal to funding

it has been a while i must say (every comment he receives a notification for)

I like what onionr is doing, what's the current status on the web of trust?

endor00: were voting to close or wait. Do you want to see moon funded without a response?

One of the downsides of a self hosted gitlab is not logging in often to see the notifications though.

Driving

We've been waiting officially for 2 week (1week past the deadline)

Onionr I vote hide for now

'forgot sudo' has support for resubmitting with just 1 milestone, they have just not responded yet

ofrnxmr[m]: Oh sorry, misread. No, what I meant is that if the proposal is to move forward, we'd need *at least* a response from him on any open questions. (Haven't followed too closely, so I'm not 100% up to date on its status)

I'd be careful with funding any kind of onion marketplaces but that's just my personal opinion

Diego Salazar: hes been pinged personally

i contacted him on the 25th and he said he would look at it 'tomorrow' on the 28th

Its a weekly newsletter - but its been weeks since hes checked in on his proposal and months since releasing a newsletter. ---------- close

moon/johnfoss^

plowsof: I Vote hide pending resubmission

for onionr , yes , the reason for resubmitting the Web of trust milestone is that it would be useful (in isolation) for other projects (apparently)

C l o s e plowsof: luigi1111: wasting time re: moon

"Resubmitting" a milestone? What's that?

plowsof: For example, I could put reviews for my shop on there, right?

They are going to edit the ccs or resubmit a ccs for the specific milwstone (web of trust) endor00:

i do not know exactly what this WoT provides (yet) myself

Oh ok, I see - so we're voting to keep the proposal hidden until they do that. I approve

resubmitting is just changing the proposal and put it up for discussion again (be it close / resubmit or edit)

So instead of funding the marketplace, it would only be for web of trust part of it, which should - in theory - be useful to other projects

ofrnxmr[m]: sounds more reasonable

That's the plan

Yeah, not too crazy about funding the direct development of dnms myself either

i agree , that would be the plan for this one then (only with one milestone - wot)

One way or another, that's just asking for trouble

I think consensus on this one is hide and allow them to resubmit/edit and we come back to it later

d. [Develop selfhostable monero payment processor](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/345) (close)

Stnby: any comment?

we tried to negotiate if he would be interested in working together with us

On our project and find a common goal

Vote to close it right now

But his goals seemed a bit out of scope of ours

I'd say close

Did you receive any info that would give us reason to merge?

Otherwise were at closen

i vote to close , they also want the funds upfront

Stnby[m]: He wants to primarily support Windows. He also wants a more monolithic solution, download wallet-rpc etc from the website automatically or build everything into a binary (he didn't elaborate how). Also wouldn't like to use our payment processor of choice, MoneroPay.

+1 close

Close

* He wants to primarily support Windows. He also wants a more monolithic solution, download wallet-rpc etc from the website automatically or build everything into a binary (he didn't elaborate how). Also didn't like to use our payment processor of choice, MoneroPay.

feels very 'bespoke' also

Close

Funds upfront are you insane

Ok, next

e. [Gupax: GUI for P2Pool+XMRig](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/350) (edited after feedback - awaiting decision)

Tldr for changes?

hinto @hinto.janaiyo:matrix.org: my only request is 75xmr for deliver of the 1.0 and 25 xmr for the 12 months of maintainence / updates (including major)

ofrnxmr has issues with "maintenance" - hinto edited in that it would be 'free as long as he was in the community' and clarified that maintenance would only be small changes (filenames.. hashes etc)

Yeah idk sounds like the maintenance is so minimal, with a tutorial even I'd be able to keep it running

maintenance really wouldn't be too much, so i don't think it's necessary to make a big deal out of it

I do

since the last meeting, hinto has released a version of his proof of concept for windows/mac/linux

Because you dont.

If you thought it was np, why not accept.

I mean, unless p2pool's interface/behaviour changes dramatically, I wouldn't expect any significant changes in the underlying code

Unless you feel like you'll lose 25 xmr by not maintaining it?

hinto does not want to accept funds for maintaining it

because there's no point in drawing out 25 xmr over 12 months

I agree, but p2pool adds features and is growing / changing all the time

merope: this is exactly correct

I mean, we can't edit the proposal for him. His proposal is 100 for the thing upon completion.

Yay or nay on terms as stated?

true, mostly adding new command flags, but those are easy to implement

If it's so much of a problem for ofrnxmr: and so little work for hinto @hinto.janaiyo:matrix.org: ask for 5 xmr extra paid out after a year ..

i say yes

Nay on terms as stated from me. No maintenance is included

ofrnxmr[m]: "Maintenance after initial release should be very minimal and would of course be free." Sounds included to me? 🤔

Free =/= ccs. In the comments he says "as long as hes in the community", which could be day, weeks, years

I like the proposal (which is pretty much 100XMR for a finished gui, right?), +1 in favor

All I ask is a 12 month commitment to a 15k project

some back story here , i have passed on suggestions from us reg monero-bash to hinto - which he added/changed to that proposal (after a long time of discussions) - and we didnt like it / its not going to funding. will the same happen here? this is discouraging

I wont block it, but in 100% against merging without guaranteed maintenance

hinto is a "valuable" alias (if we are worried he will vanish) - he has 1 prev completed ccs and merged code in monero core

<merope> "I mean, unless p2pool's interfac..." <- In case of dramatic changes, maybe he can create follow-up proposals and we can fund it this way?

No

Tbh I'm not sure what work you would expect him to do in those 12 months

Siren[m]: That would be a no, because he explicitly mentions free follow-up maintenance

Yeah software shouldn't just break within a year

Siren: I dont think there should be multiple ccs for this gui in a short span ie under 12 months

merope: Ah, okay

merope: This is my problemn

Monerobash did tjis

But beside the occasional bug fixing, I would not expect any big changes in the way p2pool gets launched

I dont want to see this from gupax

i'll explicitly say there won't be a gupax 2.0

Ever?

if p2pool/xmrig don't have any breaking changes, there won't be a need

any internal gupax changes would be on my own time

And what if you create s gupax 2.0

Then what? New ccs?

if i ran away and refused to maintain this, i don't think i would be very welcomed back

Making a new alias is easy. Cmon now

there's a implicit social contract being made here worth a lot more than 25xmr

25 xmr is too much to ask? His about 80/20

How about

ofrnxmr[m]: Gaining some trust is another thing

i care about p2pool use a lot, i'm making this because i want p2pool to succeed

again, hinto has 1 completed ccs and merges in monero-core

Completed ccs withva follow up ccs for double the initial

In short order

i think we can vote now?

i vote move to funding as is

I'm the only no vote

(Yes with maintenance as a portion of ccs)

I'm going to say yes since this is important software and Hinto is not a total unknown

I like the idea and the WIP GUI, so a yes from me too

🥳

(if my votes count :) )

hinto @hinto.janaiyo:matrix.org: 😈 I tried

it is a yes from me too but I'm new here

g. [Monero Paper Wallets](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/352)

Btw can I say it's kinda cute how we make decisions on the spending of a 3 billion dollars project with like 5 people

Instaclose

s/dollars/dollar/

xmr.gift/generator xmr.gift

close

I'm against the wallet designs

I can make some with ai for free

Why close? I like it

we have them already, #xmr.gift:matrix.org and a team dedicated

Panda: could you provide us with one of the designs? Or some of your previous unrelated work?

plowsof: These are for gift wallets. Also, they require going through apps for qr codes and stuff

merope: No previous work

I just want to write down my seed on a cute piece of paper

I am not against paper wallets but would like to see at least 1 design to get what you mean/ your art style

Panda: this is your proposal?

merope: We have that already

doesnt msvb labs have gift wallets on indistructable paper?

whats the point

The toughy wally or something like that

monerobull[m]: I've only seen one design "in the wild"

The idea behind it is different in my opinion. I think that whether you want to keep your wallet completely offline by keep it on a paper wallet you should be able to. I do agree on the qrcodes utility but this means using a phone to scan it/create the qrcode and that is exactly what I wanted to avoid.

we have them though , i don't get it

plowsof: The proposal is so we pay for the designs it seems

But what are they like? Some epic artwork? Or tux paint?

i would rather give the contract to a contirbutor who has produced designs at #xmr.gift:matrix.org

known in the community etc

I do understand that I’m new and you don’t know me, so I propose to split my proposal in a pre-proposal of 3 designs (both A4 and credit card dimensions) in order to show you my thoughts. Than, if you do like my designs, I will submit another proposal for the others.

merope: We can buy assets from adobe for 20$ and remake it. No point in paying some "designer" without any designs 2 grand

although gift cards - its not a huge leap of faith for the designer to make a cold wallet thing

I think you should release a free one first

I can share a mockup (ignore errors, just a wip)

:/

that would be a start , lets discuss the remaining proposal in the last 10 mins

I think you need a working version

Lets move on

h. [Metronero Checkout](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/353)

ofrnxmr[m]: what do you mean?

metronero was only added today, so this is an introduction

This one is very new

I havent had time to read ir

just sharing it for us

I Vote: postpone til best meeting

Next*

yes, just introducing it

Siren, can you ELO5

plowsof: We kept it a secret, except from plowsof

Haven't read it either

What do you mean by that? :D

Explain like we're five

Misspelled

what is metronero and when will i need/use it

merchants who want to sell products for monero

This is like hotshop 2.0?

Have you guys seen payment gateways provided by PayPal, Revolut and basically most of the e-banking systems? This basically what we would like to make.

Basically you geberate a payment link

s/geberate/generate/

Let's say there's a shop using one of these gateways. Upon checkout the shop redirects you to the gateway, and upon payment handling by the gateway you bounce back to the shop.

So like btcpayserver?

Yes, similar

monerobull[m]: Exactly

yes (or like Square for fiat checkouts)

We have it under why section

And whats the difference between what we are making and btcpay server

For short we did not like how poorly btcpayserver performed without Javascript

Are you sure you can do it in 5+5 weeks?

And had medioker monero support and also C#

We have it performing perfectly fine without JS

merope: Yeah we have a barely working PoC already

Milestone 1 involves "planning the backend, api" and rewriting a whole bunch of stuff

Siren[m]: So it will work well on Tor browser extreme settings?

monerobull[m]: Yes

Stagenet btw

Absolutely no JS

That's nice

We use HTTP headers for refreshing by default

Http can do refreshes via Refresh header or a meta tag

Absolutely no need for JS

Siren Stnby: would a github mirror ever be considered? ironically gitlab relies on JS

The PoC was working last time we checked (about a month ago) but there is a problem with our wallet rpc server on stagenet. I will spin our own stagenet node tonight.

hinto[m]: We will mirror the rewrite on both public gitlab and GitHub instances

Github relies on Microsoft but we could mirror it to repo.getmonero.org

We are not too proud of the PoC

But it is fully open source

AGPLv3 :)

Will you keep it working after potential seraphis fork

i have seen an example payment request on stagenet (where you see the qr code/address to send funds to and it refreshes to show completion of payment) it would be ideal to have this to show us again

redirects to the 'shop after payment received etc

We will keep it working as we need it for ourseleves, we would even consider making this without a proposal like moneropay.eu, but plowsof encouraged us to create one

MoneroPay team have my support, thanks

monerobull[m]: It uses Moneropay to do payment processing, which uses official wallet rpc server underneath. Unless the wallet rpc server will break after the fork, everything should be still working.

If it doesnt we will shout on the core untill it starts working, jk

now the hour is up, any parting words? also waiting on jberman/selsta for their ccs renewals

plowsof: In the PoC UI we have a form where you can fill a form and generate this payment page which upon cancellation or completion redirects you to the provided URLs. But ideally you can have your backend make a post request to create these pages automatically.

plowsof: will open today lol

Also meteonero will keep merchant system up to date with the satus over callbacks

+1

s/satus/status/

<merope> "Are you sure you can do it in 5+..." <- Yes, should be enough.

* Also meteonero will keep merchant system up to date with the payment status over callbacks

Siren[m]: Will be enough, if we do not finish it on time its us to blame and we will work on it until it works!

^ For free

Maintenance will be free as well

<plowsof> "now the hour is up, any parting..." <- is luigi here?

i'd like to get working and a confirmed merge would take a lot of worries off my mind

almost , Driving home , soon though, ill update by the end of today on whats happening

ok , seems like we've reached the end, thank you all for attending ❤️

btw plowsof, I noticed a bunch of spam comments in some of the proposals

Yeah

plowsof: are you luigi :D ?

(dunno if you have the power to clean up)

i wanted to give a quick update on MoneroKon 2023

i read the email after each gets posted , i will ask for rights to delete them

hinto @hinto.janaiyo:matrix.org: im luigi

ah hello ajs_

Thank you as well plowsof have a safe ride don't die while texting!

One of the spam comments: repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/345#note_18884

We have narrowed down the venue options to two locations - Neuchâtel, Switzerland and Prague, Czechia

we are all luigi

luigi is a hivemind

We are still waiting on further details from University of Neuchâtel and we've received a agreement from La Fabrika.

<ofrnxmr[m]> "I think you should release a..." <- Ok I will release one upfront and we will discuss about it later. Thank you for your suggestion

La Fabrika is offering 3 days + 1 day setup... 5x10m stage, 6 long tables, 12 chairs, 12 bistro tables, PA system, stage lighting, laser projector and screen (610 x 345cm) + support staff (production manager, light board operator, sound engineer, video engineer, cloakroom attendants, fireman, cleanup crew)... ~53k EUR

Personally, I am leaning towards La Fabrika since we have close contacts with Paralelni Polis. On the other hand, Neuchâtel might be a cheaper option since the venue is at a university and the Nym/DarkFi teams are interested in collaborating with us.

We will be making a final decision on the venue in next week's MoneroKon planning meeting.

Will there be anyone in fossdem from monero next year

Exciting, thank you for the update!

I invite everyone to chime in the choices by joining the planning meeting or commenting on the GitHub issue

Once we gather additional quotes from vendors and finalise the budget, we should be submitting a CCS proposal sometime in early December.

that's it.. thanks

I'll set up talk submissions once we have a venue

ok everyone thanks for attending, if the hiveminds wishes are not implemented , it is my fault

Stnby[m]: Me and Stnby are going

i might be the only person here not in europe

ty plowsof

Brussels / Belgium

Who is going!!!!

We have to exchange some Monero srickers

plowsof: Thank you for moderating

Stnby[m]: Just order them from me 😎

Do you sell them?

Monerosupplies.com

We got like 200 of these from the guy in Vilnius for free

<pandapaperwallet> "Ok I will release one upfront..." <- plowsof:

I think he might have bought it from you

monerobull[m]: We have the exact same stickers. It's probably from you. Laminated paper right?

Yeah vinyl

Outdoor rated

Jup that's then

* Jup that's them

We already used them all

if we like the idea of monero paper wallets , then we should sponsor the gift-wallet team (more info in my comment on the ccs idea - as 'gift wallet' is also == restoring a wallet from seed - side stepping all of their effort / research and dev. and asking for funding when you dont have a simple PoC design yourself feels insulting )

Nice

If you ever go to Vilnius you will see them absolutely everywhere

We have wars with nft people

They must suffer for what they have done

The Vilnius person is mega based donated multiple boxes

Siren[m]: Surprised that it's still on there

<pandapaperwallet> "design1.pdf" <- plowsof they did send a sample

I thought they are decently easy to remove ion one piece

monerobull[m]: Noooo

They are hard af to remove

monerobull[m]: Nope they rip easily

Which is actually good

They get pissed and give up

Perfect for vandalising the city

If they rip it we put 2 extra next day

Kek I've never tried to remove em

endor00: reminds me of xmr.gift/templates/black if this is something we like then pay the community member(s) who spear headed the gift card movement voluntarily

But this isn't about gift cards 🤔

imagine 2 applications "hello im behind xmr - gift , i want to also make templates for wallet recover" vs "hello i have no experience, heres a proof of concept and im a random person"

Strictly speaking, that doesn't preclude the latter from delivering a nice design

which of the two would have our support?

if we want nicer designs we know people who can produce them already

Both? While I share the reticence towards funding unknown people, I don't think that should be enough to reject a proposal. Otherwise you're driving outsiders away

The final decision to fund the proposal should be up to the donors themselves, not to us discussing it

"driving outsiders away" only when we don't need to outsource the labour

e.g. monero.graphics

but ofcourse, if there is no competing proposal...

plowsof: I don't see a ccs proposal for paper wallet designs from them though

(oops, network lag)

it was posted several hours ago*

Aside from filtering out the "obviously bad" stuff, I don't think it's up to us to decide whether a proposal *should* be funded

what about "obviously better"?

or shld there be 2 ccs' for monero paper wallets simultaneously (or a few weeks apart) for paper wallets

Why not? Why shouldn't there be two competing proposals?

if i contact gnuteardrops of monero.graphics and he posts a ccs for example

plowsof: panda said they would release a free copy for people to use and try

two competing proposals moved to funding?

So we can know better if we went to fund 20 more

Want

true, this is a great 1st step

plowsof: Yep

has that ever happened?

Otherwise, it's 10 of us in this chatroom right now deciding whether a proposal is "worthy" of funding for *all potential monero donors*, purely based on our personal preference

* Otherwise, it's 10 of us in this chatroom right now deciding whether a proposal is "worthy" of funding in the name of _all potential monero donors_, purely based on our personal preference

I try not to vote with person anything

If I dont like a proposal, its usually for a reason I feel is valid and being overlooked

And I don't think that would be fair towards proposers

(sometimes less than 10) but these meetings don't decide (in isolation) , its the overall feedback obtained throughout the time the proposal is at the idea stage (be it from gitlab/reddit/irc)

Example, panda proposal when nobody knows what they are actually proposing

ofrnxmr[m]: 10 paper wallet designs in 10 milestones? seemed pretty straightforward to me. Why would that *not* be a **valid** proposal?

I can create 10 paperwallets with a pencil and my big toe

And nobody's stopping you

Which is why an example was asked of, and why I requested a working model

And panda seems to feel that to be reasonable

Which should also help garner support / clear the noise

And they sent a wip design

ofrnxmr[m]: But will you do it. Or anyone else for that matter

Endor, were arguing the same point?

My point is that, in spite of the fact that this proposal seems perfectly valid, you voted against it (while claiming that you vote against proposals that have issues/are not valid)

I simply asked panda to submit a working version and they obliged?

i think it was me who voted against it? or

For further voting

its new so not much to vote on

<ofrnxmr[m]> "Instaclose" <- ^

ofrnxmr[m]: live stream pls 😍

I missed the /s ? Lol

im just saying that i "know of people" who could do better (until of course, Panda proves otherwise - and now he has released a proof of concept design so thats a good start)

But that doesn't mean that we should be rejecting someone else's proposal

Members of Core agree/share your opinion, that we should not make the decision on who is worthy of getting funding

Then the better person should open a proposal

Then all people should open a proposal, and it should be up to the donors to decide whether to fund one, the other, both, neither, or anything else

Moon and observer have "competing ccs". Cant believe I forgot about that example

if all people where able to open a proposal we might have more proposals in my purgatory/OTHER list with unfinished milestones

thus creating a bad look for the following proposals that come after it

Panda: sorry for using you as an example 😂. Nothing against you or your proposal

Panda sorry, you have/are doing everything correct

my bias is that i want to show everyone the great work of some other contributors is all, clouding my decisions

Like.. I could use some more monerochan from a new artist 🤷‍♂️

No problem, by the way I do have another proof of concept design as wip if you are interested. This is a project I already started for myself and I just wanted to share my work with the community

<pandapaperwallet> "No problem, by the way I do have..." <- Sure, I would be interested

monerobull: is this your voice? youtu.be/QYfUSImvRnQ

dat cringe zcash song holy shit

Kek no

<monerobull[m]> "Kek no" <- A bummer

<Stnby[m]> "Sure, I would be interested" <- I’m not at home right now but I will send it later

Yeah, makes sad too