<a​mano:nitro.chat> Will full-chain membership proofs make transactions take less storage space on monero blockchain?

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> No, as a matter of fact, it will slightly increase transaction size and therefore the storage requirement needed.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> But, it will be smaller than bigger rings?

<k​ayabanerve:monero.social> For a 2-input TX, it's roughly equivalent to a ring size 40 in size.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> So, it is better than rings bigger than 40.

<k​ayabanerve:monero.social> Re: bandwidth for 2-input TXs? Roughly.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Is there a plan to reduce transaction size?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Which DEXes will add monero?

<u​ndercoat1719:utwente.io> try unstoppable atom exchange

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Is tradeogre okay?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Is tradeogre okay for trading monero?

<h​anshan:monero.social> Tradeogre has been around for a long time.

<h​anshan:monero.social> But just use localmonero.co

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Localmonero is for cashing monero out for fiat.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I'm considering kraken if I don't mind KYC.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Kraken has low risk for fractional reserve.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Kraken has low risk of fractional reserve.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If I mind KYC, then tradeogre is the only option....

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Tradeogre block withdrawals for kaspa and dogecoin in the past. So, it has some risks....

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Tradeogre blocked withdrawals for kaspa and dogecoin in the past. So, it has some risks....

<h​anshan:monero.social> Just use the site bro. Send someone cash in the mail.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I will use the site, but localmonero isn't for trading monero.

<h​anshan:monero.social> try again

<a​mano:nitro.chat> And, in my region, no one accepts cash by mail on localmonero

<h​anshan:monero.social> Gotcha

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I want to trade between monero and bitcoin.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Localmonero isn't for that.

<h​anshan:monero.social> Then bisq

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Bisq sucks for that kind of usage....

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I am practicing short-term trading. I need a proper trading interface like tradeogre and kraken.

<h​anshan:monero.social> Yeah if you wanna be a "trader"

<h​anshan:monero.social> knock yourself out

<h​anshan:monero.social> Those are your only two options afaik

<a​mano:nitro.chat> There is no reason to use bisq for trading between monero and bitcoin.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> There is already an online atomic swap service for swapping between monero and bitcoin.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If haveno takes off, there is no reason to use bisq.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Localmonero is already better than bisq.

<h​anshan:monero.social> Samourai atomic swaps are offline

<h​anshan:monero.social> Haveno isnt done

<h​anshan:monero.social> as you pointed out, you can move between BTC and XMR on localmonero

<h​anshan:monero.social> Bisq just works

<h​anshan:monero.social> Samourai atomic swaps are offline

<h​anshan:monero.social> Haveno isnt done

<h​anshan:monero.social> as you pointed out, you can't move between BTC and XMR on localmonero

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Basicswap

<a​mano:nitro.chat> * basicswapdex.com

<a​mano:nitro.chat> * unstoppableswap.net

plowsof: Thanks!

plowsof: We should see if we can get some news outlets to write about this too

<4​rkal:monero.social> The MoneroArchive (iji2hhxnh4jfyx6q2wenr7bo2p2jmsmk7dzu5pvh2s2gupud472mihad.onion) has been up for more than six months. 🎉 with little to no down time

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Monero Talk talked about bitcoin becoming unuseable for poor people because bitcoin transaction fee will be so high that people can't send low amounts of bitcoin.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> What would the minimal transaction amount of bitcoin be in a few yeras?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> What would the minimal transaction amount of bitcoin be in a few years?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Where can I see bitcoin transaction fee?

<4​rkal:monero.social> mempool.space

<3​21bob321:monero.social> 🔮

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Bitcoin transaction fees are below 5 US dollars for now.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Thanks for mempool space link.

<m​onero-guides:matrix.org> Hi all, I've noticed monerodocs is down. Does anyone know if the content is still available?

<s​needlewoods:monero.social> getmonero.dev

<r​ails11326206827:matrix.org> github.com/monerodocs/md

<r​ails11326206827:matrix.org> Is this it?

<m​onero-guides:matrix.org> it is indeed. thanks :)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> There is a repo created on monero for docs. Soon™️

<a​mano:nitro.chat> In alaska, monero is pegged to gold?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> On Monero Talk, a guy says in alaska, people trade monero with gold.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Alaskanon?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Yes.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Alaskanon lives in alaska?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Doesn't matter.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Rip fingerprinted

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Are mordinals a thing?

Not anymore, it seems. Must been months since the last new one, at least as the website showing them is concerned.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Monero is terrible for things like that....

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If you want NFTs, you should design a cryptocurrency from scratch.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Mordinals would just ruin monero.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> That's like using bittorrent on tor network.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> That's like using bittorrent on tor network. Terrible.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Not really. The point of using monero blockchain is that your NFTs won't fall into oblivion because you're posting them on an obscure, new blockchain. This is a reputation steal in some sort. Posting NFTs is useless, posting them on non-NFTs intended blockchain is much more attractive

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I still think NFTs on monero blockchain is a terrible idea.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I still think NFTs on monero blockchain are a terrible idea.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I still monero should move away from blockchain design at some point. Adding NFTs on top of the blockchain will only make the transition impossible.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> monero should move away from blockchain design at some point. Adding NFTs on top of the blockchain will only make the transition impossible.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Articmine thinks 12,000 TPS is possible on blockchain, but I think that's impossible.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> 12,000 TPS is difficult even for DAG.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> On a PoW consensus mechanism, a DAG is no different than a blockchain regarding TPS

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I don't know whether nano.org can handle 12,000 TPS.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Can solana?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I think we should move away from PoW, too.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Solana is using a (almost) proprietary hash algorithm and atomically clocked servers to make proof that a transaction occurs at the a specific point in time. Good idea on paper, a failure in practice. Solana is unreliable.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Nano?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> kaspa.org seems to make PoW more efficient by not wasting work.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Nano use a different approach iirc. Not an expert, but they use nested DAG, different DAG only link to each other when a transaction occurs between

<r​brunner7:monero.social> It's that time again when I make a longer Reddit post and it gets immediately deleted by some mod bot. Can some friendly Reddit mod please approve it? Thanks ! old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1c…software_wallet_api_will_probably/?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Be aware, almost all the community is against PoS. Main critics are centralization of wealth, and inequality in consensus.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Reddit is a censorship hell hole.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Riche people are getting richer, poor people can't affort to participate into the consensus

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> afford*

<a​mano:nitro.chat> > Kaspa utilizes the optical-mining ready kHeavyHash algorithm for consensus and security of the network. This algorithm, combined with high-throughput DAG and no-wasted-blocks, makes it less energy intensive than other PoW networks.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> No-wasted-blocks

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you know... it's not because network hashrate is higher than the network is faster...

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Post it on monero town and that wont be an issue

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Perhaps, combining kaspa with FCMP is a step in the right direction?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> > Post it on monero town and that wont be an issue

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I'm on monero.town but there is not near the amount of people on r/monero

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Yeah, with maybe 5% of the visibility :)

<a​mano:nitro.chat> 5% is better than 0%.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Some harsh and unfortunate realities ...

<a​mano:nitro.chat> 5% is infinitely better than 0%.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Tbh, I don't see any point in leveraging DAG, or kaspa mechanism.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> More scalable. History pruning.

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> And if you post something that's interesting, then to see it, people will have to go there. And therefore, the status of Monero Town will rise.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Monero's current design isn't great for scalability.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> nah, reddit users are never gonna check monero.town because r/monero is empty

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> elaborate

<a​mano:nitro.chat> No blockchain can scale up.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> No blockchain can scale up to 12,000 T PS.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> No blockchain can scale up to 12,000 TPS. Prove me wrong.

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> You just go to r/monero and post a link to the post on Monero Town.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Let alone 1,000 TPS.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ok that's clever not gonna lie

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> I think we in the Monero Freedom community are responsible for not only spreading Monero, but hosting Monero on places that respect freedom and only posting links to those places on places that do not respect freedom.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I think an actually scalable cryptocurrency will look alien to people who live now.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Theorically it can, the whole point of TPS on blockchain is meaningless compared to asynchronous cryptocurrencies (whether DAG or BC). 12 000 TPS means we can (network-wide) *verify* 1440000 transactions in 2 minutes (Monero's block time). And theorically, we can also go up (with dynamic block) and these 1440000 transactions in a block. In practice, it'll take a long time before d<clipped messa

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ynamic block get to that scale, and we need the best bandwith and processing power, for sure

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Make posts on monero town and post the links on reddit

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Write posts on mastodon and post the links to twitter

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Post tutorials on peertube, etv

<a​mano:nitro.chat> The storage requirement will kill decentralization.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> The storage/bandwidth requirement will kill decentralization.

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Make posts on monero town and post the links on reddit

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Write posts on mastodon and post the links to twitter

<s​hortwavesurfer2009:monero.social> Post tutorials on peertube, etc

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Probably only 10 nodes run by banks.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Probably only 10 nodes run by banks that can afford to run nodes in big data centers.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> That is an open question on the MRL repository issues. One solution that have been discussed is recursive ZK proof for limiting the blockchain size and validate all prior data (meaning we can erase it), but it have its consequences.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Basically, another banking system.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> That's why I think we will probably end up with something alien in the future.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I think Artic Mine have a better answer than me on this, since he is the one that designed the dynamic block size, fees mechanism etc... But the future you describe is at least 15 years ahead of us

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Perhaps, aliens were tortured to get this type of technology.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> You know, drivechains and L2 channels still exist

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I mean a century ahead of us in linear time. If another satoshi comes, then we might see it in our lifetime.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I think monero doesn't have L2?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I think monero doesn't have L2, yet?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> no

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I don't know whether a monero hard fork can adopt an alien technology totally different from blockchain.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> This alien may not even be DAG.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> A blockchain is a one dimensional DAG. I think its perfectly possible, just that there is no point in doing so if we keep the PoW consensus. And we're gonna stay on the PoW consensus

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If we get this technology, then it may be a financial singularity.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If we get this technology, then it may cause a financial singularity.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If we get this technology, then it may cause a financial singularity. A big mess that sucks in everything.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> If we get this technology, then it may cause a financial singularity. A big mass that sucks in everything.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Blockchain forces waste of power. DAG can eliminate electricity waste. That can improve TPS somewhat.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> no it can't

<a​mano:nitro.chat> > This algorithm, combined with high-throughput DAG and no-wasted-blocks, makes it less energy intensive than other PoW networks.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> No wasted blocks

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> yes less energy intensive, not faster

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> oh mb are you reffering to the start ?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> More transactions per the same energy expenditure.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> That means more TPS for the same amount of energy.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Bitcoin PoW is pretty wasteful.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> As I understand it, Kaspa is not using a traditional DAG like other has done. the DAG is for entire blocks, not transactions. 2. Kaspa scalability and fast verification is done through parallel blockchains (sidechains), so it scale horizontally. 3. What they call no wasted blocks, is actually just side-mining on all parallel sidechains.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I like horizontal scaling.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Does that mean sharding?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Its equivalent yes

<a​mano:nitro.chat> It also prunes block data.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> So, no big data centers required....

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Cerberus also achieves scalability through practically limitless sharding.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I'm sceptical about that. I think they leverage recursive ZK proof, which have been criticized here.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> At least, they are testing it.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> I wish monero folks stop obsessing over privacy after FCMP which seems like perfect privacy.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> It's time for them to start improving scalability.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Time to make privacy available for people.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> *I wish people stopped at making this since tomorrow*. You are seeing into the future ?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> anyway if you feel like kaspa is an interesting concept you can open an issue on github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> smarter people than the two of us will probably find things to say

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Okay

<k​ayabanerve:monero.social> Kaspa's pruning design is incompatible with Monero, ignoring all the other issues with it.

<k​ayabanerve:monero.social> It'd nuke storage and bandwidth.

monerobull: can u approve pls reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1cfg94…_weekend_come_check_out_a_film_that

<m​onerobull:monero.social> approved

gracias

not showing up on the sub for some reason

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Can a hard fork be incompatible with monero?

<a​mano:nitro.chat> It seems github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues has a few ideas for pruning.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> The pruning design is fundamentally incompatible. They keep the current UTXO set, enabling pruning all historically spent outputs. Monero's 'UTXO set' is every output as we can't distinguish spent outputs from unspent outputs.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> We could keep the entire TXO set as the UTXO set. Kaspa allows verifying the supply with only the most recent outputs (by summing their amounts). That can't be done with Monero, so the lack of the historical TXs/proofs would allow malicious miners to inflate the supply (not just improperly spend coins).

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> I don't personally support any designs premised on miner multisigs FWIW (drivechains nor Kaspa)

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> If we ignore the pruning designs for how they allow miners to improperly spend outputs *and* inflate the supply, then that leaves the DAG commentary which attempts to maximize throughput regardless of efficiency. I don't support such designs either.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It still is bottlenecked to the performance of the L1 nodes, even if we max out their requirements (as Solana does). We should discuss horizontal solutions IMO.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Also, SyntheticBird, Kaspa doesn't scale horizontally (it still determines a best chain and canonical ordering over all data, so while parallel heads may increase throughput, every node must process them and it so increases resource use) and does not use recursive ZK proofs (which have been advocated here, without criticism exceeding the typical SNARK criticism AFAIK).

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Solana does not have a proprietary hash algorithm AFAICT, and even without their consensus they have done remarkable work on scaling via localizing execution.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> It's as horizontal as you get within a monolithic layer.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> *AFAIK, not AFAICT.

<a​mano:nitro.chat> Sharding.