-
kayabanerve[m]
I asked a week ago about an IM way to contact emesik and just wanted to ask again in case anyone has talked to him. I sent an email about a week ago yet no response yet so trying to follow up :/
-
kayabanerve[m]
And no, not a social call, I know #monero-offtopic exists. This is about development
-
kayabanerve[m]
*emesik is the monero python dude and I believe he has a couple different nicks
-
drflashd[m]
why moner-blockchain-export if data.mdb copy could suffice?
-
moneromooo
So that data may be verified by the recipient.
-
drflashd[m]
moneromooo: regards? since it is a hashed chain bits would be discovered anyway
-
moneromooo
I do not understand.
-
drflashd[m]
moneromooo: the 'Previous Block Hash' ensures data integrity, what 'verify' u talkin?
-
moneromooo
This is self contradictory, I think.
-
moneromooo
If I give you a file and a hash, which I claim is a hash of that file, are you going to bet millions it is a hash of that file without verifying ?
-
moneromooo
If no, why do you think it'd be different here ? If yes, I can send you a file and hash now.
-
moneromooo
Unless I misunderstood your point.
-
drflashd[m]
moneromooo: i can hash copy of data.mdb as well as the export, there is no difference.
-
drflashd[m]
in both cases the chain can be walked and hashes calculated
-
drflashd[m]
> <@moneromooo:libera.chat> If no, why do you think it'd be different here ? If yes, I can send you a file and hash now.
-
drflashd[m]
* i can hash the copy of data.mdb as well as the export, there is no difference.
-
drflashd[m]
in both cases the chain can be walked and hashes calculated
-
moneromooo
I think I understand. If Alice gives Bob a copy of data.mdb and its hash, and if Bob trusts Alice, then Bob can verify the hash to check no error was made in the copy.
-
moneromooo
But the export tool is made for use when Bob does not trust Alice.
-
moneromooo
ie, it matters whether the errors are random chance (in which case a simple hash of the binary blob will pick it up with ~100% certainty) or malicious (in which case Alice will supply the hash of the malicious data).
-
drflashd[m]
how does the export tool counter a forged chain/hash from malice then?
-
moneromooo
So that's why Bob has to "walk the chain" as you say.
-
moneromooo
By putting the data in a format where it can be verified by the importer.
-
drflashd[m]
moneromooo: if the exporter can do the transformation, so can the importer himself do the export/import.
-
drflashd[m]
what transform is done via export rlly?
-
moneromooo
Mainly, dump all data except block and tx blobs.
-
moneromooo
Technically, you could verify from an untrusted data.mdb, but it'd involve a massive amount of extra code and complexity.
-
drflashd[m]
do you mean: the exporter need not be trusted using the export tool?
-
moneromooo
The exported does not need to be trusted. The imorter does need to be,
-
moneromooo
The exporter does not need to be trusted. The imorter does need to be.
-
moneromooo
The exporter exports the minimum of data that's needed (basically the same format you'd get via the network, but framed).
-
moneromooo
All the extra sorted/duplicated/databased stuff is dumped, and the importer will recreate it - correctly.
-
moneromooo
Hence eschewing the need to verify all data extra data.
-
moneromooo
all *that* extra data.
-
moneromooo
I don't know if you know it, but data.mdb contained not only the tx/block data, but a number of tables with sorted/indexed data derived from those, in a way that's easy/fast to lookup.
-
moneromooo
And that can be recreated from the tx/block blobs.
-
drflashd[m]
is that index correlated to local wallet (tx of interest prio sorting eg) ?
-
moneromooo
No.
-
drflashd[m]
is xmr post quant secure? have seen
youtube.com/watch?v=j02QoI4ZlnU
-
moneromooo
Depends what parts. There was a stocktake, and a report about it. I don't have a link though.
-
moneromooo
IIRC some parts are good and some have varying degrees of not good.
-
drflashd[m]
<moneromooo> "IIRC some parts are good and..." <- can transaction graph be deanon?
-
drflashd[m]
A sent B and not the other 10 ring members.
-
moneromooo
I don't remember which parts have which flaws. Try looking up: monero quantum plus the nick of the person who did this, escapes me right now.... I'll tell you if I remember.
-
moneromooo
Ah: isthmus
-
drflashd[m]
-
drflashd[m]
you only have CCs but where the f is the linked result
-
drflashd[m]
this is retarded design
-
nikg83[m]
-
drflashd[m]
-
drflashd[m]
alias wrecked.
-
drflashd[m]
* alias privacy wrecked.
-
isthmus
Updates were posted to the CCS as research progressed. Since then, the CCS UI has been updated so that the update comments are no longer on the main landing page. The results are here:
-
isthmus
-
isthmus
-
isthmus
-
M8guru[m]
is there simple documentation/a place for discussion about the expected effects of the emissions change in a few months?
-
hyc
what emissions change?
-
moneromooo
I was trying to express... that :D
-
moneromooo
Is it when the block reward gets stuck at .6 maybe ? Shouldn't be too long now.
-
sech1
-
moneromooo
If so, given it's going down slow, it should not change anything really.
-
hyc
let's discuss the effects of the lack of change in emissions in a few months ...
-
M8guru[m]
sech1: thank you! so the effect won't be large, I did not know the gap was so small with the current block reward.
-
M8guru[m]
hyc: what is the status of developing an alternative reward mechanism? is it related to the quantum resistance docs above?
-
moneromooo
There is no alternative reward mechanism.
-
M8guru[m]
that was my understanding so far too, thank you. so in May, Monero will become the first widely distributed PoW blockchain to be in its tail emission stage. is that right?
-
hyc
june
-
M8guru[m]
due mainly to a much shorter block time compared to the comparables?
-
hyc
doesn't doge or something already have perpetual emission?
-
moneromooo
IIRC dogecoin has a tail emission, and it's an old cryptocurrency, so it might be there already ? If not, I think monero would be the first, yes.
-
moneromooo
Though I believe Grin has a constant emission, so you could consider this a tail emission from 0.
-
moneromooo
Oh wait. Ducknote! :D
-
moneromooo
I loved that name.
-
moneromooo
IIRC they had a tail at 300. Years ago.
-
moneromooo
The downward slope was wheeeeee IIRC.
-
hyc
block 300? interesting choice
-
moneromooo
No, 300 ducknotes. I think. Maybe.
-
hyc
ah
-
moneromooo
From a start of 300k or 600k I think.
-
moneromooo
Within a few years. Maybe 2. My memory's super hazy, but it was fast.
-
moneromooo
The name was rad though.
-
hyc
ducknote? sounds like a bunch of quacks
-
moneromooo
Might be right :D
-
moneromooo
Two months till tail emission. It always seemed so far away...
-
moneromooo
Well, we survived ^_^ Congrats everyone :D
-
hyc
:)
-
moneromooo
if rfree and tewinget are around, cheers to you guys also :D
-
hyc
rfree? doesn't ring any bells
-
hyc
must be before my time
-
jeffro256[m]
selsta regarding rebasing #8223 and #8228, did you mean squash them both individually, or combine the PRs?
-
selsta
jeffro256[m]: squash both individually, not rebasing
-
selsta
so that it's a single commit, the others are just review related that don't have to be separate commits
-
jeffro256[m]
Ok cool that's what I thought you meant, just wanted to make sure
-
rbrunner
Isn't the CLI wallet `sweep_unmixable` command supposed to produce a tx with a rct output?
-
selsta
.merge+ 8223
-
xmr-pr
Added
-
rbrunner
I tried to arrange and test spending pre-RingCT outputs, but failed somehow, as for me `sweep_unmixable` resulted again in a transaction with many outputs with denominations
-
rbrunner
Which then again are not spendable in the "normal" way
-
rbrunner
But if that command is known to work I probably did something work in preparing my wallets and doctoring fork heights for my offline daemon
-
rbrunner
*did something wrong
-
UkoeHB
is there sweep_mixable or something? iirc there are 2 transition points
-
rbrunner
I see only `sweep_unmixable` in the current CLI wallet
-
UkoeHB
my guess is sweep_unmixable turns non-denominated outputs into denominated outputs, which then have to be converted to ringct outputs
-
moneromooo
IIRC, sweep_unmixable makes a v1 tx, but will not create dust.
-
moneromooo
So its ouputs are spendable in a v2 tx.
-
rbrunner
Well, if I try to spend the outputs of `sweep_unmixable` with the normal `transfer` command, it balks and tells me to use `sweep_unmixable` again
-
rbrunner
Would you say that's expected?
-
moneromooo
And... I forget why non dust outs are spendable in v2 but dust aren't...
-
moneromooo
Could be because the value is too small to pay for the fee ?
-
rbrunner
Er, no, I try to spend over 50 XMR
-
moneromooo
Then maybe it tells you more and you omitted that ?
-
rbrunner
It had to produce so many denominations exactly because the amount was so "strange" after deducting the fee :)
-
rbrunner
-
moneromooo
It tells you: not enough outputs for specified ring size = 11:
-
rbrunner
Despite that small height I am already at V14 because of "doctored" fork heights
-
moneromooo
You seem to have at least one output of uncommon denomination.
-
rbrunner
Isn't that exactly one of the problems that this special command is supposed to solve?
-
moneromooo
And it then tell you which one: 50, 2 found.
-
moneromooo
Yes. Bug maybe.
-
moneromooo
Oh.
-
moneromooo
It spends unmixable, but creates unmixable too :D
-
moneromooo
It's just very unlikely in actula mainnet.
-
rbrunner
Yeah, that's also what I believe to see.
-
rbrunner
Why does it not simply create a single RingCT output and be over it all?
-
moneromooo
Fixing this would be... a bit hairy. You'd have to split an arbitrary amount into a set of denominations, each of which has >= 10 amounts on hte chain.
-
moneromooo
I do not remember.
-
moneromooo
Oh, I do now:
-
moneromooo
v2 txes do need a ring with > 1 size.
-
rbrunner
Alright. So the "trick" would be to spend smaller amounts, that find their "necessary partners" in the chain somewhere? Because common enough?
-
moneromooo
So it *might* work with the output has more than 1 and fewer than 11 instances.
-
moneromooo
But most unmixable outputs have just themselves for that amojunt.
-
moneromooo
So not worth the bother I guess.
-
moneromooo
But I think it could theoretically be done.
-
rbrunner
It's on testnet, and with a low blockheight, so there may well be damned few outputs with particular amounts.
-
rbrunner
Not a very realistic test, then.
-
rbrunner
Unimportant edge case :)
-
rbrunner
I wonder how much effort it will take to make such outputs spendable with Seraphis ...
-
rbrunner
Maybe UkoeHB did already brainstorm about that?
-
UkoeHB
can't be done with seraphis directly, but you could do this
monero-project/research-lab #59
-
UkoeHB
err well I guess you could do it with seraphis too
-
UkoeHB
it's just treating those outputs as generic ringct outputs, so a ringct -> seraphis tx could spend them
-
rbrunner
From your linked issue: "In protocol v1 output amounts were communicated in clear text, much like the class of Bitcoin-esque currencies."
-
rbrunner
Is that true?
-
rbrunner
-
UkoeHB
look at the amount column
-
rbrunner
I also have to quote the next sentence: "Then in v2-v3 these output amounts were split into denominations with a separate output for each chunk, say for
-
rbrunner
I mean, we have here a V1 tx which is already split into denominations, as far as I can see
-
UkoeHB
that says tx version 1, I was referring to hardfork v1
-
UkoeHB
isn't there a tx version 0?
-
moneromooo
We just have v1 and v2.
-
moneromooo
no 0 nor 3.
-
UkoeHB
hmm
-
rbrunner
Hmm, now I am fully confused. I went well below the v1 hardfork height with a block height of around 20,000
-
moneromooo
Oh. If you mean block versions, not tx versions, we have 1-15 or so.
-
UkoeHB
maybe I made a mistake in my research
-
rbrunner
But that does problably not invalidate your idea, right?
-
UkoeHB
it doesn't
-
rbrunner
Alright :)
-
rbrunner
By the way, nothing wrong or so, I am just poking around a bit in an effort to learn, caused by a review of jberman's ringsize 16 PR
-
rbrunner
It's amazing how much "cruft" already accumulated, and the system can still produce those txs with denominations, surprising in a way
-
UkoeHB
the genesis block doesn't have denominations, were denominations really around from the very start?
-
moneromooo
Yes.
-
rbrunner
I saw today block rewards of over 34 XMR, at height 20,000, and got jealous: Why I did not stumble over Monero earlier, I would probably be rich now :)
-
UkoeHB
lol there are definitely some monero wales out there...
-
UkoeHB
whales*
-
moneromooo
I would rather have found Bekshire Hathaway at the start.
-
rbrunner
Or knowing how successful Apple would become ...
-
moneromooo
Bitcoin might actually be even better than Bershire...
-
monerobull[m]
I want access to the medallion fund
-
monerobull[m]
moneromooo: Highest percentage gain in the past decade wasnt actually Bitcoin
-
moneromooo
Hopefully it wasn't a scamcoin, but I wouldn't bet on it...
-
monerobull[m]
-
monerobull[m]
This isn't for Dev though, let's stop
-
rbrunner
Ok :)
-
moneromooo
You're right, sorry :D
-
jeffro256[m]
Hey EPEE Sections can be nested with the type code SERIALIZE_TYPE_OBJECT right?
-
selsta
.merges
-
xmr-pr
7936 7937 8053 8166 8177 8179 8180 8195 8196 8197 8205 8207 8211 8212 8213 8215 8222 8223
-
upp
i think the block reward right now is moneros biggest weakness
-
upp
only people motivated to mine are enthisiasts willing to take a loss, malware perveyors, and attackers like big governments
-
upp
thats equation does not balance out in our favor i think
-
upp
enthusiasts*
-
upp
if only could think things through more thoroughly and start over at the beginning
-
merope
upp: then you need to study the economics a bit more. Also, this topic is better suited to #monero:monero.social :) This channel is for actual development work
-
merope
Oh, you're on libera
-
merope
#monero then
-
upp
yeah, i saw block rewards mentioned like 5 comments ago
-
upp
but i know that freenode/libera people are more than happy to spend > 50% of the chat content on telling people that their one or two sentences shouldnt be said here, they should be said in another channel
-
upp
keep wasting time on that
-
upp
im sure it helps
-
upp
im also sure it engenders respect and community among the handful of people interested in a particular subject
-
upp
clearly you are sure of that also
-
merope
It actually does, especially when people don't spam in response to that :) Either way, you need to understand the concept of mining profitability, and that the block reward is a fixed parameter for a good reason
-
upp
i know im not an expert
-
upp
just saying what it seems like
-
merope
Bumping up the block reward would screw with the economics of the coin big time in several ways
-
upp
am i really that far off?
-
merope
Yes