<f​ineopal:nope.chat> What is the actual amount here? I sent 0.1 XMR and it says:

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> ```

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> "amount": 100000000000,

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> "amounts": [100000000000],

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> "confirmations": 5

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> ```

There are 1e12 units in what you think as one monero. It's like counting in cents for a dollar.

<c​t:xmr.mx> the number shown is in piconero, moneros smallest unit, similar to bitcoin sat. It follows metric unit conversion

<c​t:xmr.mx> one second late :)

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> What's the conversion formula for converting to integer?

multiply by 1e12 (avoiding floating point to ensure correctness).

COIN is that define in cryptonote_config.h, to avoid hardcoding the 1e12.

There's also a printing function which gives you a user friendly "decimal point" amount string from a unit amount.

cryptonote::print_money

Always work in atomic units internally.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> Is it possible to use that on RPC calls?

Define "that".

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> This one.

Define "This one".

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> I would like to print decimal point amount. Instead of atomic units.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> When I call get_tranfers, it shows in atomic only.

Then, if you mean as a client of monero's RPC code, you can't use print_money itself.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> I see. Thanks.

I suppose it could be exposed as a RPC... But different clients do different things, like clipping trailing zeroes or not, etc.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> Does anyone know of sites to send stagenet XMR? This one is not working: stagenet-faucet.xmr-tw.org.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> >

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> Failed: Wallet backend error, please try again later.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> (Method 'transfer_split' failed with RPC Error of unknown code -19, message: not enough outputs to use Please use sweep_dust.)

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> > Failed: Wallet backend error, please try again later.

<f​ineopal:nope.chat> > (Method 'transfer\_split' failed with RPC Error of unknown code -19, message: not enough outputs to use Please use sweep\_dust.)

Mine some, diff should be low.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> docs.getmonero.org/infrastructure/networks/#stagenet faucets linked here

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> fineopal: if mining your own doesn't work or you can't find a functioning faucet, post an address. I've been mining on the xmrchain box on stagenet for... a while. I just need to access the wallet.

I have a question. How big is the threat of 51% attack? For example a big cooperation commanded by the state has to corrupt Moneros blockchain. Is that possible?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> r​sch: That could be a good question for #monero-research-lounge

<x​3cc:nope.chat> rsch: I did a quick math, let’s say to achieve 51% we need at least 2Gh/s, it’s 2.000Mh/s or 2.000.000Kh/s

<x​3cc:nope.chat> For example, 1 CPU ‘AMD Ryzen 9 7950X’ yields 25Kh/s and costs approximately $500, so

<x​3cc:nope.chat> By this logic, to achieve 2Gh/s you’ll need 80.000 CPU and it will cost: 40.000.000 united state dollars?

<x​3cc:nope.chat> And this math doesn’t include other things like electricity, motherboards, ram, etc

<x​3cc:nope.chat> But if we are talking about attacking through supportxmr or nanopool it’s a different question

You need ~5 GH/s to 51% monero atm.

Assuming legal means.

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> ... and 5GH/s is indeed relatively cheap to rent. We have seen this with the Tari hype last week. That's why we are working on making things robust.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> even simpler

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> you take an institution with influence

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> make an announce on twitter that people mining on x pool will be rewarded up to 10x time their effort

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> here we go, you have your legal botnet ready with minimal logistics

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ofc you need some money to reward them (if you decide to do so), but it will be cheaper

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> But to be more precise: to invade the current network, you can't just push a button. It needs time because a working state of the current net is preferred by nodes. #monero-research-lounge

What happened with "the Tari hype" out of curiosity ?

(PM is fine)

(or #tari I guess)

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> some money-making hype with merge mining pushed up the hash rate by ~20% (one month). As a side kick these nodes were mining valid empty blocks.

<x​3cc:nope.chat> moneromooo: Tari did a hardfork to reduce reward from merge-mining, no? That’s why I thought there is a hashrate drop, tari now more profitable to mine solo with RandomX

<x​3cc:nope.chat> What do you mean ‘valid empty blocks’? In monero blockchain?

That's unfortunate, re reducing reward from merge-mining. Is there somewhere I can read more about this ?

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> bug was fixed afaik. @sech1

<x​3cc:nope.chat> Found official tari post explaining the hardfork xcancel.com/tari/status/1925996858230423869#m

ty

Doesn't actually explain anything. Or I can't use twatter, which is a very possible thing.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I don't understand either how they would have two RandomX mining slices, and one of the two brings "MOAR $XTM" now for the miners

I think it means "don't have to compete with monero miners".

I'm more interested in why this was needed. Guessing 33% empty blocks is better than 50%, but who knows.

It all ends up in people being shitty for an extra $0.04 a day.

I believe that the mining of empty blocks no longer occurs

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> maybe on bitcoin

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> their tx volume is plummeting

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ik its unrelated

I just thought that 50% is interesting due to the block size median. 50% empty blocks would prevent block size growth, if they're using a similar thing.

<x​3cc:nope.chat> I assume it became difficult to compete with monero miners after pools implemented tari merge-mining and all this hashrate flowed to tari network, so imo it’s a reasonable hardfork to keep tari rewards high

But the whole point is that people would *become* monero miners.

<x​3cc:nope.chat> p2pool monero miners, double win

<x​3cc:nope.chat> I’m curious how supportxmr did tari merge mining under the hood? Isn’t it’s only possible with p2pool btw?

<x​3cc:nope.chat> Oh nevermind, I think I understand now

moneromooo: means you need 200k ryzen 9 7950x. so with an investment of 100k usd you can outmine monero?

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> with a decent vps, lets say 500-700k per month.

im wondering how robust monero is. lets say the state want to ban monero. they cannot crack the encryption. what if they invest in hashing rate of more than 1mio (nothing for them) to outmine moneros blockchain and gain 51% control? is that possible?

With the numbers from x3cc above (no idea if sane), it's more like 100 million.

what is the worst case scenario if that happens? they can issue new monero from nothing or corrupt the blockchain?

But if a state really wants monero dead and isn't really bothered aobut legality, they can do cheaper.

moneromooo: how

From 51% ? They can't mint new monero. They can't corrupt the chain. They can rewrite the chain with another (valid) history.

"convince" main pool owners.

Some govts probably know who/where they are, and have global insertion reach.

moneromooo: means they can rewrite the chain in a way that they own 100% of all monero for example?

Well, if they can rewrite 100% of the chain, sure. But that will take a *lot* more work than just 51%.

but if they reach one time 51%? what is the worst outcome?

Instead of 10 times current diff, they'd have to expand the whole cumulative diff (and the actual chain will continue chugging along while they try).

From 51% ? They can't mint new monero. They can't corrupt the chain. They can rewrite the chain with another (valid) history.

yea what does it mean exactly

Worst case would also mean this craters confidence in monero and people just don't use it anymore.

It means, double spend, omit txes they don't like, etc.

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> it would be more of a pr stunt; and a hf maybe

Double spending here does not mean spending twice in the chain, but spending once in each chain.

I have to read about it more not just what are the possible outcomes. but my question is why the state do not bother to do so? instead they ban monero. you said they have cheaper ways. which for example?

"convince" main pool owners.

Why the (eg) US govt doesn't try to 51%, I dunno. Similar to why don't they just grab poeple off the street and... oh wait, they've started.

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> hrm... my calc was 16 x Intel® Xeon® E5 * 16666 from servers.guru btw

They still have a sense of wanting to be seen doing, or see themselves doing, the right thing, as a whole. As in, you need enough % of people to be assholes in order for the govt to do something like this ? I dunno.

Or maybe they think it'd be a streisand effect.

To be clear, in the "you need enough %" line, I meant: in order to carry out "bad" actions, you need enough people in the set of who contributes/controls to agree, or at least tacitly allow, the bad thing.

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> ... and co-opting my feel more rewarding, too - trying to de-anon and force-kyc

Yes true, maybe they have widespread spying that's enough to get them 90% of what they want already.

from my understanding a 51% just can alter the recent history but after several confirmations its not possible to alter the monero blockchain easily

<a​ntilt:we2.ee> i am actually a bit more optimistc, like 40-60%

the situation of bitcion is better they have more hasing power but what is concering is that just 2 pools alone control more than 60% of the entire hashpower

As I said before, the more blocks you want, the more work you do. Also, less than 50% is OK if you're fine with trial and error/retry.

You could rewrite from block 0 if you had 99.99% of the hash rate. Modulo checkpoints.

<x​3cc:nope.chat> 100k usd? No, of course 100m usd and it’s only price for CPU, excluding other hardware and electricity, so it’s 150-200m I guess is the price to try to 51% monero, but also where are you going to find 160.000 AMD Ryzen 9? Is there even exist such amount?

<x​3cc:nope.chat> Monero network generates every day 142k usd btw

<x​3cc:nope.chat> Approximately

<x​3cc:nope.chat> amd better for randomx because there is more L2 cache than in intel afaik

<x​3cc:nope.chat> About 51%, more realistic would be if main pool owners somehow convinced to help adversary, or maybe pool infrastructure hacked, some three letter agencies have crazy exploits that are not publicly disclosed

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Monero

9:58 PM ​<m-relay> ​<x​3cc:nope.chat> ​amd better for randomx because there is more L2 cache than in intel afaik <<>> L3

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero #9935 this _works_, but are there any cons to not pulling all of the hashes?