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one-horse-wagon[
I have posted a plan on the implementation of Seraphis and Jamtis at--
github.com/seraphis-migration/wallet3/issues -- and also at paste.debian.net/1259239
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one-horse-wagon[
The GitHub one is easier on the eyes to read.
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one-horse-wagon[
See you all at today's meeting.
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one-horse-wagon[
* Here is an attachment which is probably the easiest to read. To allay any fears, please scan for viruses before you open it.
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UkoeHB
Meeting 1hr
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UkoeHB
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UkoeHB
1. greetings
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UkoeHB
hello
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one-horse-wagon[
Hello
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dangerousfreedom
Hello
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font-deny[m]
hello
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Rucknium[m]
Hi
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jberman[m]
hello
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rbrunner
Hi
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UkoeHB
2. updates, what has everyone been working on?
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jberman[m]
me: submitted the final update on my CCS, background sync/scan_tx PR's are ready for review, nearing completion on stress testing the pool, planning to jump into input selection in Seraphis as my first task there
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UkoeHB
me: working on update seraphis multisig to allow legacy inputs, should have this done within a few days (tm); after that is adding a seraphis coinbase tx type and updating unit tests to use that
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UkoeHB
on updating*
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Rucknium[m]
me: working on other projects while waiting for initial OSPEAD review.
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one-horse-wagon[
I wrote up a plan for the implementation of Seraphiis and Jamtis and posted it here. Hopefully, everyone got a chance to look at it.
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UkoeHB
this is the plan from one-horse-wagon[
seraphis-migration/wallet3 #28
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dangerousfreedom
me: organizing the wallet tiers and the work that should be done to initiate a wallet in legacy and jamtis standards.
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rbrunner
Looks like that plan, same content as the .odt file
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rbrunner
Good to have it as an issue, for discussing it
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UkoeHB
3. discussion, there are two topics on deck for today: one-horse-wagon['s plan and jamtis checksums
gist.github.com/tevador/50160d160d24cfc6c52ae02eb3d17024#64-checksum
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rbrunner
I was late to return home and saw the proposal only a few minutes ago, unfortunately
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rbrunner
But other may already have formed some opinion?
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dangerousfreedom
I like the proposal of one-horse-wagon . In my opinion we are already doing it but if I understood you want the wallet development to be something more official/structured ?
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UkoeHB
Regarding the plan, I'd say the administrator stuff is maybe a bit aggressive. rbrunner is already doing a good job as coordinator. We don't actually know the exact steps that need to be done or what the best order is (this is a matter of ongoing discussion). I think getting a test network up sooner rather than later is a good idea, although I have no idea what's required to get that far (maybe quite a number of
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UkoeHB
intermediate steps remain).
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rbrunner
I confess that so far I was running under assumption "As long as nobody complains (e.g. from the Core Team) it's probably ok". But have not problem to contact them, to inform and listen what they think
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rbrunner
In one point I agree wholeheartedly with one-horse-wagon: The more people fully commit to this gigantic project, the better
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one-horse-wagon[
The biggest problem I see is the core developers are not onboard yet. Direction has to come from the very top and right now there is none.
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rbrunner
Well, we don't now, I would say, we just don't have word yet.
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plowsof
i'll prod them
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rbrunner
Gently, I hope?
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UkoeHB
I can already see the answer: keep at it. lol
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rbrunner
Yeah, but why not. We do hear damned rarely from them.
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plowsof
lol
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dangerousfreedom
I guess so :p
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UkoeHB
plowsof: do you have an update about BP++?
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Rucknium[m]
I think the Core Team takes the advice: "That Core Team is best which governs least."
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plowsof
quarkslab - unavailable until Q2 2023 (said they will come back with quotes and or follow up questions) Kudelski security / CypherStack, i await their reply (after their initial response)
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rbrunner
Things like that might become important, if people start to feel we just decide over their heads, or even ignore them on purpose, there might be opposition as a result
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UkoeHB
plowsof: thanks :)
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rbrunner
and that tends to be a productivity and motivation killer
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Rucknium[m]
IMHO, I don't think direction needs to come from "the top". According to getmonero.org, "mediation" is a major role of Core. There haven't been major disagreements yet, so Core has not been involved.
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one-horse-wagon[
Rucknium:Seraphis and Jamtis are a major step for Monero and to hear nothing from the top makes little sense.
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jberman[m]
who exactly are you waiting to hear from?
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rbrunner
Hmmm, maybe "the top" is not the top in this matter. Development of Monero is a bit chaotic, if somebody comes forward and implements something, it happens :)
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UkoeHB
they have generally been quiet about research projects iirc, since they mainly do custodial things like manage the community resources
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rbrunner
I mean, who ordered that UkoeHB guy to disturb our quit Monero life with something so big? :)
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rbrunner
*quite
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rbrunner
We could do CLSAG in peace until we are all old
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UkoeHB
lol
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rbrunner
No, after this discussion now, I would like to get at least "comment" from them
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rbrunner
I know that binaryfate will be affected, because "his" Rino wallet will be affected heavily, as a JavaScript / WASM wallet.
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Rucknium[m]
A comment from them would be good, yes.
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rbrunner
Probably much more difficult to adjust than even the wallet2 based apps.
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one-horse-wagon[
We need more than a comment. We need for them to get behind the project and pick an administrator and the program seriously underway.
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one-horse-wagon[
* administrator and get the program
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rbrunner
Is there any important difference if people just accept me as administrator by merit, versus the Core Team formally appoints me? Serious question, hopefully not coming over as aggressive.
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rbrunner
Or just because nobody else steps up ...
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plowsof
yes people accept you as admin by merit
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one-horse-wagon[
IMO, you are the perfect guy to run the show. But you have no power to do anything.
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rbrunner
Hmm, yes, but maybe appointing me formally would have solid advantages?
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dangerousfreedom
I would say that it is even better by merit than if the core team appoints someone that we dont know.
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rbrunner
Well, I have the power to program and make PRs. I can't merge them, that's true.
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rbrunner
So of course luigi could stop me dead in my tracks.
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rbrunner
But to say "I have no power to do anything" sounds a bit strange to me, frankly.
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one-horse-wagon[
dangerousfreedom: That wouldn't be wise because the job requires a good deal of technical sophistication which rbrunnern7 has.
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luigi1111w
core is not going to appoint an administrator or arbitrate unless there is fighting/significant issue going on. It seems like the participants are getting along swimmingly so far with rbrunner doing his thing
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dangerousfreedom
one-horse-wagon[: Thats what I'm saying
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rbrunner
Thanks, luigi, I try hard to to "my thing" well. No guarantees, however :)
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one-horse-wagon[
luigi1111w: Why is appointing an administrator a problem?
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rbrunner
I mean, in a project of this size, there will be conflicts sooner or later, or at least serious disagreements
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luigi1111w
because core strives to be irrelevant.
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rbrunner
Even with the best of intentions from all involved parties
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one-horse-wagon[
luigi1111w: Yea but you guys aren't. You will decide in the end as to what gets incorporated.
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luigi1111w
only to the extent there isn't consensus
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plowsof
we the people assign rbrunner as administrator +1
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luigi1111w
anyway I don't want to make unilateral statements for core. If input is required we can discuss it
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rbrunner
How do you personally look at Seraphis?
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rbrunner
If you are here, a small comment ... :)
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rbrunner
And Jamtis of course
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rbrunner
Maybe already returned back to the Olymp.
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luigi1111w
it's a big change that I don't fully understand / the full implications
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rbrunner
Well, yes, I think nobody has yet full understanding and overview concerning implications.
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luigi1111w
so then I have trepidation :)
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rbrunner
In any case, it would be good for the project to be at least sure that Core has no problem with me.
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rbrunner
You may give the others a quick call by using whatever you have there for Core, a red telephone maybe?
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rbrunner
To make sure you are in consensus
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hyc
dev consensus is really what matters, and it appears that is already a given
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SerHack
hi
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hyc
having an "administrator" isn't a bad idea, but that can still be community-chosen
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hyc
just like during RandomX development, I took over the administrivia, interfacing with the auditor teams, etc
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rbrunner
Sounds like it, yeah. I am also quite time-limited to do much more, e.g. code, to be honest. But I was frank about that.
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hyc
a clear delegation of responsibilities is a good thing.
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hyc
and core doesn't need to get involved unless the devs have unresolvable conflict
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rbrunner
But is *is* a quite special way to drive a venture the size and importance of Monero further. It worked so far, however.
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hyc
this is an open source project, developers drive it. that's how open source works.
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rbrunner
Better than most other coins, I would even say.
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dangerousfreedom
I dont know if we have any more time but I would like to discuss the new checksum algorithm for Jamtis. Currently we use Keccak but since it was replaced by blake2 in Seraphis I was thinking about using blake2 also. What are the ideas here? I would be fine using blake3 also but I dont think we need to innovate that much.
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one-horse-wagon[
Can we reach consensus here. Put rbrunner up as the official administrator?
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plowsof
+1
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hyc
no objection here
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one-horse-wagon[
+1
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jberman[m]
sgtm
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hyc
as for keccak vs blake2 - what was the reason for changing it in Seraphis?
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UkoeHB
dangerousfreedom: I think we should table that until next week. It should be easy enough to switch out the algorithm as needed.
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Rucknium[m]
IMHO, people who are writing the code are best to ask about an administrator. But if I would vote, I vote yes.
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hyc
indeed, choice of hash algo is pretty unconstrained
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UkoeHB
hyc: blake2b is faster and has a keyed hash mode. Also, some of the hash behavior is changing (mainly hash to scalar is now hash to 64 bytes before scalar reducing instead of hash to 32 bytes).
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UkoeHB
rbrunner: keep at it :p
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hyc
UkoeHB: makes sense. speed is also why we use blake2b instad of keccak in randomx
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rbrunner
Looks like it.
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hyc
keyed hash seems less critical, you can use HMAC on anything if you really want that
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binaryFate
rbrunner: what does "administrator" mean here?
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rbrunner
What I basically am already doing: Managing the project "implement a Seraphis / Jamtis core wallet in the Monero codebase"
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rbrunner
Setting up project infrastructure, for example. Writing issues.
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rbrunner
Arrange meetings, or at least take part of any, to be informed.
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binaryFate
sounds good to me
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UkoeHB
hyc: yeah but at least it's a case of 'one less thing to get right' by using the blake2b interface
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rbrunner
Later review code, or help to review, merge to some repository
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rbrunner
a project reposistory
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hyc
UkoeHB: sure. anyway, blake2b is a good choice for any number of reasons
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UkoeHB
Ok we are at the end of the hour and seemed to have wrapped up discussion, so I'll call it here. Thanks for attending everyone.
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one-horse-wagon[
Very good. Some of the important parts of my suggested plan are accepted. Congratulations to you rbrunner.
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rbrunner
Thanks!
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rbrunner
No, really, appreciate it, and good we had already 2 Core members drive by, have a look, and finding nothing to object. That's something.
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dangerousfreedom
Thank you everyone.
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binaryFate
<rbrunner> I know that binaryfate will be affected, because "his" Rino wallet will be affected heavily, as a JavaScript / WASM wallet. <--- fwiw whatever "professional" investments or involvements I have is not relevant to my opinion about Monero's directions
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rbrunner
Good to know. And I do think it will take a long time until we see clearly how a Seraphis + Jamtis web wallet should best be implemented.
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ArticMine
Sorry I missed the meeting today. I have been swamped.
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ArticMine
Put rbrunner up as the official administrator <--- strongly in favor
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ArticMine
This is be very helpful with the Seraphis implementation
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ArticMine
As Jamtis
gist.github.com/tevador/50160d160d24cfc6c52ae02eb3d17024#64-checksum I have made a preliminary drive by and found a lot that I personally like and no problems
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ArticMine
This support if of course contingent on a strong consensus among the developers in favor, in particular when to comes to the security of the implementation
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ArticMine
Of course I cannot speak for the rest of the core team members.