<reuben:firo.org> Eh Zcash guy claiming that they're quantum resistant or at least implying they're ready...

<reuben:firo.org> x.com/ebfull/status/1991260684240474471

<reuben:firo.org> Is that true?

<freeman:cypherstack.com> I’ve never liked these “quantum-resistant” claims much. It’s still vulnerable to a scalable quantum computer, hence harvest-now-decrypt-later is an issue. Sprout, Sapling, Orchard all broken by a strong quantum adversary! So I believe these claims are unrealistic

<freeman:cypherstack.com> Like saying a glove is flame-resistant - it’ll still burn through to your hand, absolutely, it’ll just take longer

<sashimi.:matrix.org> if kayaba remembers, we used to have mochimo in the community, they released their coin to be quantum resistant, was mined on vps only at first (cause it used just 1 core, probably purposely made bad implementation so the regular users would use just 1 core to mine while the devs had better software for themselves, before the community caught up and got their own tools to the community lol)

<sashimi.:matrix.org> like over 5 years ago now

<sashimi.:matrix.org> how come no quantum resistance yet in monero lol

<reuben:firo.org> @freeman:cypherstack.com: I mean Sean is usually a stand up guy but surprised he made such claims.

I keep linking this every day monero-project/research-lab #151

<freeman:cypherstack.com> I’ll link this article for the commentary bitcoinist.com/is-zcash-quantum-resistant-yet-experts

<reuben:firo.org> Didn't know Carter was a cryptographer?

<freeman:cypherstack.com> Unfortunately, he’s still not wrong in that a quantum computer will effectively be able to deanonymize all transactions retroactively

<freeman:cypherstack.com> If it’s not post-quantum (not fire proof) then a quantum computer (fire) will be able to break it (burn through it)

<321bob321> ostif.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/1…incore-security-assessment-V1.3.pdf

<321bob321> reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1p34kr3/bitcoin_core_audit_complete core audit

<articmine> @freeman:cypherstack.com: There is forward secrecy against a silver of the discrete logarithm problem in Monero if the public key is not revealed.

<articmine> Where it gets interesting is when an adversary has access to some but not all the public keys and engages in blockchain surveillance in this post quantum world.

<articmine> Solver*

<articmine> The other one is blockchain surveillance as transactions are going through a turnstile.

<articmine> This can happen during the migration to quantum secure encryption.

<pubertus:matrix.org> decentralized finance > <@gingeropolous> how will xmr benefit from defi?

<pubertus:matrix.org> this includes dexes

<pubertus:matrix.org> how does monero benefit from cefi is the better question. thats all we have now.

<pubertus:matrix.org> CEX are extractors. they dump their spreads and fees into USDT. they dont accumulate in XMR.

<pubertus:matrix.org> to avoid KYC, there is currently a 1-4% premium on this through CEX swappers (or KYC wrappers, as many just swap for you on their own KYC over Kucoin). add that with the swap fees.

<pubertus:matrix.org> we are currently at around 200m vols per day. during less volatile times thats around 100m per day.

<pubertus:matrix.org> already on a daily basis, you have massive amounts of XMR being dumped on the market by CEX.

<pubertus:matrix.org> [... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/0-Lhp8sKVFJTWmJx ]

<pubertus:matrix.org> CEX also have a monopolistic MM dynamic, especially like Kucoin with their >50% share of the XMR TVL...

<pubertus:matrix.org> they can manipulate the price with their withdraws and deposits, which they are. and they can easily change the structure of the orderbook.

<pubertus:matrix.org> DEXes can not be manipulated like this as MM is open to everyone to participate. anyone can come in and fill a gap.

<pubertus:matrix.org> the CEX are currently dumping the entire years inflations worth every 4 days.

<pubertus:matrix.org> the same principles that apply to decentralization of a coins code. need to be applied to the market dynamics. decentralization. community participation.

<pubertus:matrix.org> a coin is not decentralized if a single CEX holds 55% of the TVL...

<freeman:cypherstack.com> Forward secrecy protects future keys, not the cipher itself. A scheme can be forward secret and still be broken by a quantum computer, hence harvest-now-decrypt-later is still a concern for forward secret ECC > <@articmine> There is forward secrecy against a silver of the discrete logarithm problem in Monero if the public key is not revealed.

<articmine> Of course.

<articmine> My point is we can still go after the clear net surveillance. So even if the adversary has broken the encryption, one can still hide in the crowd.

<articmine> If there is too much data in the database for even a quantum computer to handle

<articmine> I mean decrypted data

<articmine> I am talking about Grover's algorithm here.

<articmine> Unstructured database search

<articmine> Blockchain Surveillance is ultimately about Identifying the set of K objects the allegedly illicit outputs out of the set of N objects, the total number of outputs in the blockchain

<articmine> The complexity of this problem scales as the binomial coefficient.

<articmine> N!/((N-K)*K!)

<articmine> For N=aK this is order of a^K

<articmine> On the other hand the cost to the defense is linear in K

<articmine> In summary one can still hide in the crowd if the crowd is large enough in the face of a quantum adversary that has solved the discrete logarithm problem, provided the crowd is large enough.

<articmine> In other words we have here a multi billion dollar industry that is still broken by simply growing the Monero blockchain even after Monero's privacy has been broken by a quantum computer.

<monero.arbo:matrix.org> you heard it here, Ethereum is the most private post quantum blockchain ;p

<monero.arbo:matrix.org> unless someone else has more than 1.5 mil legit transactions a day, idk

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @pubertus:matrix.org: If you think kucoin has 55% of xmr, i have a bridge to sell you

<pubertus:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: sell a bridge instead of your 20 step manuals for a dex installation. thanks. we need a bridge for Monero.

<pubertus:matrix.org> most of the TVL on CMC and CG is fake wash trading. exclude them. and you can see Kucoin has 55%.

<articmine> @monero.arbo:matrix.org: Monero

<sashimi420:matrix.org> truth tho

<sashimi420:matrix.org> centralized exchanges are fake buy walls and fake sell walls with fake made up numbers from offchain centralized databases with numbers that can just be made up by any of those centralized exchanges owners

<sashimi420:matrix.org> literally 100% of the cryptosphere is fake with fake numbers

<sashimi420:matrix.org> and then they doing the fake wash trading into that

<pubertus:matrix.org> we need dexes to solve this. cex are not good for us but its all we have for now.

<pubertus:matrix.org> we're in a submissive position atm

<sashimi420:matrix.org> haveno and serai

<sashimi420:matrix.org> while sure, onboarding the defi crowd to allow them to trade their shitcoin into monero back and fourth could bring "liquidity" and maybe some more actual users that eventually would be like "oh, that monero thing not that bad afterall"

<sashimi420:matrix.org> would also add attack vectors from a space that been suffering from alot of these with smart contracts flaws and so on

<sashimi420:matrix.org> wouldnt really be down with the risks of increase in attack vectors (and "rug pulls opportunity" from that other side with their shit tokens or whatever) just for the sake of "liquidity"

<pubertus:matrix.org> XMR need to get on existing defi chains that people use. ETH L1 and Solana.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Its 1 step > <@pubertus:matrix.org> sell a bridge instead of your 20 step manuals for a dex installation. thanks. we need a bridge for Monero.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Well, 1. Copy 2. paste

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and no, kucoin doesnt have 12m xmr like they claim to have avail on lending

<pubertus:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: TVL is not circ supply

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and they claim to have 12m supply

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> So if you believe any of their numbers . . . .

<pubertus:matrix.org> no they dont

<pubertus:matrix.org> they have the majority of the liquidity...

<pubertus:matrix.org> the liquidity people trade in...

<pubertus:matrix.org> big difference...

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> The paper numbera printed on an sqlite db?

<pubertus:matrix.org> the trading volumes and orderbook depth. they have more than everyone else combined. yeah.

<pubertus:matrix.org> the liquidity. the tvl...

<pubertus:matrix.org> the fact that a dev from a dex doesnt know what TVL means is not giving me confidence towards your dex mate. and arguing about simple facts you can check very easily. Kucoin has 4 pools: USDT, ETH, BTC and USDC.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> i'm not a dev, and def not a dev from a dex

<gingeropolous> thou hast been annointed

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @gingeropolous: I must accept?

<articmine> @pubertus:matrix.org: How much of that is paper XMR? The fun starts when people decide to take delivery. The time tested way to squeeze shorts to the wall

<articmine> Otherwise know as MoneroRun

<hooftly:matrix.org> that cant happen on a Dex though

<pubertus:matrix.org> @articmine: the 'somali hecker' session kinda proved that they have real XMR's. CEX and swappers went to Kucoin for the routings.

<pubertus:matrix.org> if all of it is real. heh. its a cex. we will never know.

<articmine> Enough to cover all of their XMR liabilities?

<pubertus:matrix.org> idk

<pubertus:matrix.org> we will never know with cex until its too late

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Like binance who couldnt fulfill?

<articmine> @pubertus:matrix.org: Many CEX cover their altcoins with BTC So they can absorb a loss on an XMR short by shorting something else

<pubertus:matrix.org> XMR should not rely on CEX. it's extremely prone to attack through them.

<articmine> We may never know

<gingeropolous> well cex's have been doing a great job of making relying on them very unlikely.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Mexc sells at 10% below spot when they close withdrawals

<articmine> @pubertus:matrix.org: Just make sure that the polar bears are big, healthy, strong , with very sharp claws and of course very hungry.

<articmine> They can take care of the CEX problem.

<pubertus:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: its a great way to suppress the coin

<pubertus:matrix.org> imagine now if something like an EU or a US agency made a call to the Kucoin CEO like they've done in the past... "increase the XMR conf times to 720" is all they need

<pubertus:matrix.org> the price would tank immediately as ppl would think something's wrong.

<articmine> @pubertus:matrix.org: ...and then more thao recover

<pubertus:matrix.org> makes you wonder if this centralized architecture is by design

<articmine> Look what happened with the EU delistit

<articmine> The reality is that this suppression cannot hold for ever.

<articmine> When it gives and all the water behind the dam is suddenly released one better get out of the way

<articmine> Furthermore the Monero network will need to handle the resulting flood of transactions

<pubertus:matrix.org> ideally. we'd have dexes ready to take over the TVL and then try to get XMR delisted from the CEX, or at least lower their share of the liquidity.

<pubertus:matrix.org> @articmine: the suppression won't survive a fix of the problem

<articmine> Especially if the short squeeze happens on one or more DEXs

<pubertus:matrix.org> but it wont fix itself

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Kraken had 720blk conf on xmr and bch was like 30 > <@pubertus:matrix.org> the price would tank immediately as ppl would think something's wrong.

<articmine> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Just look at the XMR / BTC rebate for the last year

<articmine> Rate*

<pubertus:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: yeah. and the price dropped immediately as ppl started panicking. spamming all the chats with "did something happen?"

<articmine> Buying opportunities

<pubertus:matrix.org> fabricated opportunities..

<pubertus:matrix.org> the CEX and legislators have demonstrated through this. that they have all the power to do with XMR as they please.

today ... they ... are increasubf the price

also increasing

is this on topic for this channel?

<pubertus:matrix.org> and if you read CARF and MiCA carefully, you can see their plans

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> No it didnt > <@pubertus:matrix.org> yeah. and the price dropped immediately as ppl started panicking. spamming all the chats with "did something happen?"

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> It went up

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Kraken was literally trading at a premium

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> nioc: No

<gingeropolous> yeah off to market with this one

<pubertus:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: xmr was tanking in that time...

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @gingeropolous: ^^^

<pubertus:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: it was all over the place. as it usually is with closed off markets that cant be arbitraged.

<pubertus:matrix.org> the deposits and withdraws on CEX are an attack vector which can be exploited.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> OFFTOPIC

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> #monero-markets:monero.social

<pubertus:matrix.org> @pubertus:matrix.org: this is not offtopic mate

yes it is