<spirobel:kernal.eu> now this grift is being pushed from the white house twitter account as well

<spirobel:kernal.eu> what an embarrassment. have to cringe every time anyone talks about this as if it was a real thing. these bullshit terms being thrown around "post quantum private" "post quantum resistant"

<spirobel:kernal.eu> no matter if you fell for this or not: attention to this BS is only going to go down from here and trust in any claims made around quantum & ai will only diminish. Anything associated with it will not be taken serious.

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> One of the best ways to consider Quantum Computers is in relation to the assumptions Monero uses. Monero assumes the Elliptic Curve Discrete Log Problem to be hard where 'quantum computers' represent the problem becoming easy. Even if one thinks QCs are hot air, Monero can upgrade to rely on assumptions which aren't as likely to turn out as a bad decision.

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> Notably SIS, though LWE is the more discussed problem these days.

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> These assumptions have their own ongoing analysis and studying, but an honest take is that SIS is likely more reliable to assume than the EC DLP.

<jeffro256> don't call ME sis

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> There's still the further discussion on the exact constructions on top and their efficiency, of course, but the fundamental premise of preferring assumptions we have more faith in is always good.

<jeffro256> @spirobel:kernal.eu: PQ privacy is actually a huge one that I'm glad we're tackling with FCMP++. At least with quantum fearmongering about security of systems, there are time senstive paths towards mitigating those. But if quantum computers at any point in history ever become feasible, then the whole RingCT tx graph is leaked in perpetuity

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> I have some ongoing work on MPC where we try to rely on conservative assumptions (one is _fine_ but could be better, grumble grumble grumble), but I keep poking my coauthors that we reduce to some assumptions when we could reduce to some weaker assumptions instead if we put the time and effort in (its own issue).

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> It's just always a good idea to be clear what you require and that you trust what you require, without overzealously pulling things in. The fact is, the EC DLP isn't trustworthy over the next decades.

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> Yes, FCMP++ adding forward secrecy was definitely necessary

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> That didn't require new addresses or new assumptions though, and only a minor change to the addressing protocol to sample the y term for the output key.

<kiersten5821:matrix.org> is there anything that makes it not trustworthy other than qc?

<spirobel:kernal.eu> this topic is a distraction. it is a mistake to engage with it too deeply. It is impossible to make reliable claims

<spirobel:kernal.eu> the trump "quantumania" tweets just have to be the top. no way this can get any more ridiculous

<jpk68:matrix.org> From an outsider's perspective, a lot of the AI/quantum stuff is maybe reminiscent of the crypto/NFT cringefest of 2021/22

<jpk68:matrix.org> No one (here, at least) is going to deny that cryptocurrencies are useful, however the vast majority of crypto projects are obvious scams built on hype and nothing else

<jpk68:matrix.org> Seeing as the US government is blatantly promoting scams at this point (and has long been doing so), it makes sense to be skeptical, but at the same time, at what point do you stop calling something like SpaceX a complete unsubstantiated bubble, and instead might have some real value

<jpk68:matrix.org> I am personally not decided one way or the other, just a random example

<spirobel:kernal.eu> physics & game theory

<spirobel:kernal.eu> there is not going to be a sudden arrival of an omnipotent force. All the quantum computers we see in practice are just classical computers. The "quantum" part can be replaced by a random number generator. Look at this news item: nitter.net/spirobel/status/2065307150180589769#m good starting point to dissect this from first principle

<spirobel:kernal.eu> that is how it can be distinguished from something real

<jpk68:matrix.org> Clearly every organization that deals with cryptography/security thinks it's real (NIST, Cloudflare, Google...)

<spirobel:kernal.eu> that does not mean anything.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> nist also pushed sike for years.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> that is where you think about incentives and learn to understand why some people don't understand things that they should be able to understand.

<jpk68:matrix.org> I have no doubts that a lot of AI stuff is a complete smoke-and-mirrors circlejerk, but come on

<jpk68:matrix.org> How confident are you in this? If you started a security company and claimed PQ crypto was all BS, would it do well?

<jpk68:matrix.org> The answer is no, because people know the PQ threat is real, and it's priced in

<jpk68:matrix.org> This is how markets work

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> @kiersten5821:matrix.org: Eh. I'm not decent with number theory and a lot of things are related to a lot of other things, so I don't want to say definitively either way. I'm unaware of notable concerns regarding the ECDLP over non-pairing curves other than those from QCs. With pairing curves, I'm aware integer factorization c [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/uO_79I8LMW45S1VB ]

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @jpk68:matrix.org: there are a million penny stocks quantum scams and not one real company. there is zero progress for decades towards anything useful.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> the incentives are lined up so that you pretend it is real, make some unverifiable claims and convince investors of it.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> just like what we saw with zcash. they even started producing videos and a larp ngo

<jpk68:matrix.org> @spirobel:kernal.eu: There are clearly legit uses for it. You're comparing apples and oranges

<jpk68:matrix.org> Drug discovery, monitoring water treatment, logistics, finance, etc.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> no.

<jpk68:matrix.org> Do you think AI and crypto have zero legit use cases as well?

<jpk68:matrix.org> No one is denying that something like "AI quantum blockchain" would be stupid and cringe

<syntheticbird> There was a time where a company in the netherland got investment to produce a commercially available litography process based on UV. Everyone in history mocked the papers saying it was infeasible. The company took years during which they suffer extreme stress from investors pressuring for results. And then they manages to mak [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/jdqc9Y8LU1BIMUpu ]

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @syntheticbird: no.

<syntheticbird> brother, more words please

<spirobel:kernal.eu> it was a joint development by TSMC. you cant compare these two situations

<jpk68:matrix.org> @spirobel:kernal.eu: You can't compare the entire sector/discipline of quantum computing with Zcash

<spirobel:kernal.eu> in the one case you have a giant corporation that produces 70% of all semiconductors put down billions of dollars in cash to take a calculated risk

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: huh. I don't see how TSMC doing input into ASML project make the two situations not comparable in any way ?

<spirobel:kernal.eu> no. quantum computers didnt help with any of this. its just absurd to make this claim. quantum computers helped with nothing. > <@jpk68:matrix.org> Drug discovery, monitoring water treatment, logistics, finance, etc.

<jpk68:matrix.org> I said they CAN

<jpk68:matrix.org> Do you deny that they can help with drug discovery? How?

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @syntheticbird: the difference is that in one case a very conservative company made a calculated investment. the other thing is just magic fairy dust to scam scientifically illiterate people out of their money (and taxpayers)

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @jpk68:matrix.org: absurd claim. zero proof or even credible explanation how a quantum computer could do that.

<jpk68:matrix.org> You can just google it, there is a lot of published research on this

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @jpk68:matrix.org: yes and most of published research is bullshit

<spirobel:kernal.eu> read about the replication crisis.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> that was even before ai

<spirobel:kernal.eu> now its way worse

<jpk68:matrix.org> Surely if NIST is so uninformed and is lying about this, they are also lying about, I don't know, SHA-3

<jpk68:matrix.org> Why trust Monero if parts of it are similar to standardized NIST constructions?

<spirobel:kernal.eu> absurd jump

<syntheticbird> > <@spirobel:kernal.eu> the difference is that in one case a very conservative company made a calculated investment. the other thing is just magic fairy dust to scam scientifically illiterate people out of their money (and taxpayers)

<syntheticbird> the difference is that in one case someone with big money put big money into a big complex project. the other thing is just something made up bro the entire scientific community is wrong and everything is a scam

<syntheticbird> there, that's how your message read btw.

<syntheticbird> (totally agree on the taxpayer part tho)

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: exact same jump you did with PQ Crypto imo

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> I know there was one interesting paper regarding the ability to use the EC CDH to solve the EC DLP though, which really just shows the sky's the limit for what can do what: eprint.iacr.org/2023/539

<spirobel:kernal.eu> > <@syntheticbird> the difference is that in one case someone with big money put big money into a big complex project. the other thing is just something made up bro the entire scientific community is wrong and everything is a scam

<spirobel:kernal.eu> no. there is a physical reality. and this physical reality is created by the people that live here in taiwan and produce all of the chips that we use every day. I trust them more than what ever nebulous terms like "scientific community" imply. There is an obvious incentive to keep on grifting and not rock the boat too much for them.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> maybe read some Thomas Kuhn

<kayabanerve:matrix.org> (Regarding other concerns for the EC DLP)

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: "physical reality". Bro I have a bad news for you. According to your logic, literally every inventions (including TSMC factory lines) was based on frivolous, magic fairy dust scam (on taxpayer money)

<syntheticbird> Just because something is done wrong, doesn't mean its impossible

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @syntheticbird: no. they made an argument appealing to authority.

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @syntheticbird: so you think you can build a perpetuum mobile?

<spirobel:kernal.eu> the burden of proof is on the quantum scammers

<jpk68:matrix.org> @spirobel:kernal.eu: Fallacy fallacy. Can you answer my question?

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: Well that is very true, tho I would say it was a bandwagon fallacy instead. But you know extraordinary arguments requires extraordinary evidence. So you could be right, but you need to demonstrate that formally

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: Appeal to ridicule. Faulty Generalization. Weak analogy

<spirobel:kernal.eu> outrageous claims: quantum computers are possible. infinite processing power. super fast computation. almost no energy consumed. perpetuum mobile

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @syntheticbird: no. you need give the arguments here if you truly believe this crap

<syntheticbird> only the first and third one has not been demonstrated infeasible

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: Sorry but you are the one that started the discussion saying that quantum computer was magic fairy dust. Me just listing the fallacies you made to my arguments doesn't shift the burden of proof on me

<jpk68:matrix.org> None of us said "infinite". What is your problem with it specifically? Do you not think that a theoretical quantum computer could have real-world applications, or that it would never be possible to make one? Or both?

<spirobel:kernal.eu> this is just absurd. you guys think there is going to be a magic machine that will solve all kinds of fields like "Drug discovery, monitoring water treatment, logistics, finance, etc." honestly you can continue to believe in this. i dont care. i wish people would read thomas kuhn and become more literate about science.

<syntheticbird> @spirobel:kernal.eu: we disagree and thats ok 👍️

<jpk68:matrix.org> I don't think people are going to take Monero-PSK seriously if you don't think quantum computers are real

<intr:unredacted.org> what a great time to open MRL

<syntheticbird> @intr:unredacted.org: always a great time to open MRL

<spirobel:kernal.eu> @jpk68:matrix.org: it relies mainly on symmetric encryption so this topic does not even come up. I give zero fucks about what random idiots in an irc channel think about anything. I care about what real users in the real world want. and if people care about quandum i can write an faq and explain how they can use it in a quantum secure way

<spirobel:kernal.eu> but i personally will never believe in this shit

<spirobel:kernal.eu> and i respect everyone less who takes it at face value

<spirobel:kernal.eu> especially the background characters that just show up and agree with what ever they think the current authority figure in the room is saying

<boog900> You can believe it will never happen but not preparing just in case is a gamble

<syntheticbird> someone said gamble?

<syntheticbird> I love gambling

<spirobel:kernal.eu> by relying on primitives that dont even touch it, the preparation is done and this topic can stop and does not need to be debated endlessly. it is perfectly suited for an faq for the 3 nerds that care about it while the normal user and observer is not bothered with this

<spirobel:kernal.eu> hypothetical nerd debate about magic internet money

<jpk68:matrix.org> Why would you use Monero then? One could say that caring about privacy is only for nerds

<spirobel:kernal.eu> and what happens to it when the omnipotent computer arrives

<jpk68:matrix.org> Just use your debit card for everything

<spirobel:kernal.eu> if you think quantum computers are real dont use magic internet money. just use cash. all the claims that all projects make about this topic are hand waving bs

<jpk68:matrix.org> Not to mention the ridiculous point about following authority figures. Do you think people join this community not because they want to take part in a permissionless, private, unregulated currency system, but because they want rules to follow? Why?

<jpk68:matrix.org> That just makes no sense whatsoever

<boog900> @spirobel:kernal.eu: QC are not all powerful

<boog900> But they are powerful enough to break monero

<boog900> If one is made

<syntheticbird> @boog900: Minecraft can't run on QC so that's already not a god like machine

<syntheticbird> @boog900: with enough logical qubits

<ofrnxmr> Will we get qc or gta 6 first? Polymarket

<syntheticbird> qbits

<syntheticbird> this edit was sponsored by qbittorrent

<syntheticbird> @ofrnxmr: real

<321bob321> Gta had trailer video, so qc