<redsh4de:matrix.org> meeting in 1 hour 18 minutes

<redsh4de:matrix.org> Meeting time, hello!

<redsh4de:matrix.org> monero-project/meta #1374

<redsh4de:matrix.org> 1. Greetings

<syntheticbird> Hi

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Mornin

<redsh4de:matrix.org> 2. Following up on Core Team feedback w.r.t. CCS proposals repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/641 and repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/644

hi

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> cc @diego:cypherstack.com if youre around

<syntheticbird> I didn't see, has their been any new written feedback in the PRs threads ?

no

<syntheticbird> alright

<redsh4de:matrix.org> so, to summarize (correct me if i am misremembering) - the feedback is to for now focus on just on the frontend aspect of things, and leave backend as is? What about implementing View Transitions, was there smth mentioned on that?

<syntheticbird> i was going to ask this exact question

<syntheticbird> There has been no mention of View transitions and CCS transitions/animations

<syntheticbird> which is 3/4 of my CCS.

<syntheticbird> without forgetting that my CCS also cover the beta getmonero.org website. So if they want one feature on a website and not in the other I would need to know that.

<redsh4de:matrix.org> +, would be good to get clarity on that

which one requires the "add javascript to getmonero" discussion?

<syntheticbird> mine.

do you want that discussion or is it possible to focus on the none javascript things for now

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Am i correct in understanding that redsh4de's proposals is implementation, and syn's is design?

<syntheticbird> we can focus on the non javascripts things for now, but I would like to have that discussion sooner or later

<syntheticbird> ofrnxmr: I am doign implementation when it comes to transitions and animations, and it overlaps with redsh4de when sketching components of the page.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Core isnt a fan of

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> * adding animations

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> * backend changes

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> [... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/lpWf9_wKdlJja3Nr ]

<redsh4de:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: its a mixed bag, theres some overlap but thats mostly the split yes

<redsh4de:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: would they be receptive to maybe adding some new features to the backend? i imagine with the QoL features we discussed previously we'd run into needing that eventually

<redsh4de:matrix.org> @syntheticbird: +1, it kind of touches on the getmonero page too. im still a fan of the theme toggle idea due to how trivial and non-invasive it is

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> I think theres np with adding some stuff like date the proposal went to funding etc

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and some general qol stuff

that was trivial to add to the current one iirc

the beauty of diegos masterpiece is that its just a json file

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> I think the easiest path forward is probably minimal, reskin etc. And leave the bigger design changes & backend stuff for some wider / long term discussion

<redsh4de:matrix.org> plowsof: i guess as long as the main stack and functioanlity remains the same (output into JSON), then all is fair game? submit PRs to ccs-back?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Its probably also (probably) important that its relatively maintenance-free

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> As you can tell, gitlab and ccs back/front end dont ever get or need to be updated

<syntheticbird> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: we know there is a problem yet no one is granted to resolve the problem

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> which problem? (aside from it being broken bcuz the server is out of storage :D)

<syntheticbird> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: outdated stack, inactive repositories, 5 million bots invasion

<redsh4de:matrix.org> fwiw im not a fan that are still using PHP in the big year of 2026 when there exist much better runtimes - but i get that nobody has the time to bother with going over a rewrite from scratch so i guess thats that

<syntheticbird> @redsh4de:matrix.org: i mean we do bother

<redsh4de:matrix.org> well yeah, with implementing - but then theres reviewing, sanity checking, etc etc

<redsh4de:matrix.org> Core would be running it so it'd be on them to handle

<redsh4de:matrix.org> or a trusted party to do it

<syntheticbird> you have already emitted ideas before in this channel to make the task much easier for this party.

<syntheticbird> I include sanity checking and review into the "we do bother" part

<redsh4de:matrix.org> ig, would Core ever be open to upgrading the backend? or is it just a "too much at once" kind of situation

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> I think its a "if it aint broke, dont fix it" thing

most QoL things can easily be added to the current one like node3.monerodevs.org:8082/funding-required

date to funding.. "zero conf" ... its keep it simple stupid stuff.

--tx-notify to run a script is not rocket science

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> As of current, i think the "need" is consistency with beta website. Anything else is a "want", and harder to sell with any urgency

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Right ^ and qol stuff

QoL improvements to the back end is an over saturated market, where as front end design isnt

and the ccs back end , out of the box, can be pointed to github (decentralisation tears) and work np

unrelated though, hotfix for gitlab out of space

syntheticbird just say that the back end is insecure and you are ddossing it until the ccs is moved forward

<syntheticbird> shit

<syntheticbird> you saw through our plans

the logs say "using space as an excuse?? rekt by shade and syn hahahha"

<redsh4de:matrix.org> well, since the PHP backend stays (until the now-exposed ddos attack plan), then i'll be adjusting my proposal to focus on frontend, with potential PRs to ccs backend if the need arises for anything

<redsh4de:matrix.org> off the top of my head, this is the list of the new features we discussed in the last meeting:

<redsh4de:matrix.org> * proposer history viewable from frontend

<redsh4de:matrix.org> * co-author field (don't remember if we reached consensus on this)

<redsh4de:matrix.org> * funding type classification (milestone/time/pool), retroactive tag

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> co-author nack. Proposer should own the resposibility

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> What is "pool" again?

<redsh4de:matrix.org> things like the FCMP++ research one, where it doesnt have a milestone or time expiry, like a vault in a sense?

<syntheticbird> fcmp++ research ccs

<syntheticbird> fund pool

<syntheticbird> for audits

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Proposer history can be good, but as we saw recently, 0x, fyodor, and navid all opened proposals

<redsh4de:matrix.org> wouldnt that be a argument for? dont get it

<redsh4de:matrix.org> easier auditability and whatnot

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> well, one or two of those handles were pretending that this was their first ccs

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Its not an arguement for or against, just saying that its good for honest proposers, but doesnt help wuth auditability of dishonest ones

it would stop me from seeing poeple not care about hyperlinks not being clickable in their proposal

in their who section

<redsh4de:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: yeah, doesnt do much if someone has smurf accounts but honest actors do outweight the bunch, at least rn

<syntheticbird> If anything the changes should be focused on helping honest proposers and visitors. The QoL improvements have always had this spirit

<syntheticbird> There is nothing the UX can do to fight against bad actors. That's just an unrelated problem

everyone? links their prev proposals, so it could make things look better and remove noise from the proposal, hinto had several ccs names for example, so pooling his together .. and others i forgot cause a little issue

btw i nack anything that makes it easier to create a cs proposal

sorry

kuno is there and people expose so much during the 'how to ccs' process

OSINT

gpt made this years ago plowsof.github.io/chatgpt-ccs-proposal-form.html

<redsh4de:matrix.org> not even a proposal template generator? :P i get filtering via skill issue detection though > <plowsof> btw i nack anything that makes it easier to create a cs proposal

<syntheticbird> love the broken sun icon

that was for the $xx + x.x xmr an hour mental warfare

template generator linked at the very end of the hot to ccs in small text is fine probably

<redsh4de:matrix.org> yeah, i imagine if its made way too easy (2 button process kind of thing) it will lower the barrier of entry for borderline scam entries that need to be filtered through

prior to me asking people to end on newline - not having a templater caused the maintainer alot of headaches with things not appearing on the funding required page. this has been turned into presenting the proposer with a linter that should tell them whats wrong and they must fix the issue

<redsh4de:matrix.org> alrightt. templater is a go then

<redsh4de:matrix.org> anything else i didnt mention? @syntheticbird:monero.social

<syntheticbird> None in the non-javascript discussion, but I would have imagined having the js discussion now

<syntheticbird> but it's the end of the meeting

<redsh4de:matrix.org> yeah, i think its important to cover js even though wed be running over a bit

<syntheticbird> fine with it ?

<syntheticbird> plowsof

<syntheticbird> ofrnxmr

<syntheticbird> otherwise I may for a meeting next sunday

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> hopefully attendees of community meeting will show up

the javascript thing did playout somewhat recently for jermas? original getmonero redesign proposal

us 4 can say that optional miniscule javascript is fine but the wider audience will clown you

<redsh4de:matrix.org> *might

<syntheticbird> I am fine with X clowning me, I mind convincing you and core as the reasoning behind total js ban is frankly stupid.

<redsh4de:matrix.org> I think JavaScript usage is acceptable as long as it meets two criteria:

<redsh4de:matrix.org> * easily auditable (compact, readable)

<redsh4de:matrix.org> * non-essential (functionality doesn't break without it)

<syntheticbird> Exactly

<syntheticbird> Not only are non-js users perfectly happy and can use the website. But there is no change in security risk for the users.

<syntheticbird> and since the changes are compact, bloat is also not a concern

no javascript mentioned as a selling point for getmoneros redesign in 2017 getmonero.org/2017/04/09/overview-a…dev-meeting-held-on-2017-04-09.html and reinforced in redshades proposal

several generations have been born into -no javascript- , this is an uphill battle

<syntheticbird> > <i2p-relay> {-olark} Will these sites still be usable with javascript disabled?

<syntheticbird> > <rehrar> No JavaScript will be used.

<syntheticbird> only two mentions of javascript. I won't call that a selling point

<redsh4de:matrix.org> i mean, even in there the person that asked the JS question was more concerned about if the site will be usable without JS

getmonero.org/get-started/contributing

Jekyll. No javascript 😅

<redsh4de:matrix.org> hm

<redsh4de:matrix.org> maaaybe a addendum of "required"...? 😅

<redsh4de:matrix.org> fwiw docs.getmonero.org already has a small non-essential JS bundle for UX

<syntheticbird> let's not talk about repo.getmonero.org gitlab

X doesnt care about reading docs

<redsh4de:matrix.org> so there already is a bit of a "soft" precedent

<syntheticbird> X gotta hate

<syntheticbird> whatever we do

the soft precedant would be for a feature with utility

<syntheticbird> I've seen people claiming to be monero users and hating FCMP++

that we didnt ask anyone about

<syntheticbird> for various reasons

<syntheticbird> would that be soft ?

<syntheticbird> if it has utility i bet the no-js people are gonna scream about not being able to use that utility

<redsh4de:matrix.org> theme toggle does have some utility, and docs has JS for the same reason iirc, havent inspected if its used for anything else

for docs they are told to use offline

for that search feature

and docs isnt core infrastructure so its the wild west

<syntheticbird> endorsed by core tho

<syntheticbird> since docs moved from getmonero.org to docs

<redsh4de:matrix.org> it would be valuable to get the input of community meeting attendees though

<syntheticbird> i agree

<redsh4de:matrix.org> as users

<syntheticbird> but ofrnxmr should agree tho because I bet that's going to stir up the meeting into some big debate

<syntheticbird> and he maybe want a calm meeting

<syntheticbird> which i would understand

<redsh4de:matrix.org> yeah, def controversial topic

<redsh4de:matrix.org> wdyt @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> aye.. i'd just play it on the safe side

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Core already doesnt want animations, so what would we need js for

<syntheticbird> wait

<syntheticbird> up until now you said they "weren't fan", not "they won't want". One is an opinion, the other is a statement.

<syntheticbird> so I to be sure, is that a confirmation that animations is refused, or is discussion still in the iar

<syntheticbird> s/iar/air

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> for now, unless a public statement is said to the contrary, i read it as refused

<syntheticbird> ack.

<syntheticbird> Do you think we can still gather a consensus for you to communicate to core ?

<syntheticbird> in the hope that it will change their mind

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Plowsof is the better communicator :P

<syntheticbird> alright, well plowsof wdyt

<syntheticbird> he is afk, he will respond eventually. @redsh4de:matrix.org you can close the meeting i think

<redsh4de:matrix.org> yeah, we can end the meeting here

<redsh4de:matrix.org> thanks everyone for attending!

<syntheticbird> thanks

<redsh4de:matrix.org> (will still be online for a few hrs anyway)

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Thx

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> 💀 this room is set to invite-only

💪

Every day we improve

<plowsof:matrix.org> Doors open!

<321bob321> For security reasons your room is invite only

<diego:cypherstack.com> Pinged?

<redsh4de:matrix.org> we had a meeting w.r.t backend upgrade and other feedback its from core

<321bob321> Not fingering pulse sir

<syntheticbird> kid named sir:

Gitlab is back*