merope: monero maximalism is just as real as bitcoin maximalism then i guess :) logic goes out the window

thats disappointing

that has nothing to do with maximalism, your argument is just nonsense

You've got three different experts telling you that your statement is a nonsequitur, yet you insist you're right on a topic on which you yourself admitted are not an expert

maybe it is, im not sure

it takes 1 cloud miner for a pool to reach 51%

seems like a reasonable inference to me

it's completely unrelated to the emission curve

you really think that a proper mining incentive would have 0 impact on some entity overtaking 51% ?

The mining incentive is a financial incentive to mine based on profitability. How that hashrate is distributed is a whole separate issue

Yes

The fault is in your definition of "proper incentive"

in an adversarial context, "proper incentive" is defined as personal gain

sorry to say :(

The average mining income stays the same, regardless of the size of the mining poil

*pool

right

my point is the distribution of incentive, not the distribution of personal gain

there is incentive OTHER THAN personal gain in this adversarial context

You are using the word "distribution" in two different contexts with two different meanings

the personal gain incentive needs to exist in a proper way in order for the the other incentives to not take over

is my thinking

theres a government bounty on cracking monero

not bitcoin or dog coin

monero

thats my point mainly

its a target more than anything else

There isn't a "tangible" incentive that can do what you say. This is a consequence of the fact that the mining protocol has no concept of what a "mining pool" is - and there's no way to introduce that concept in there

To the rest of the network, a mining pool looks like one big solo-miner - because that's what it actually is

if you have to mine for 15 years to make 100$

then its enthusiasts who mine because they love the project

... and everyone else

Again, what this statement shows is that you don't know what profitability is

Which is fine, but you have to understand that you are drawing faulty conclusions because you are missing some important definitions

is there a discussion anywhere that addresses this in any detail?

i just dont see how i could be completely wrong in my thinking here

I'm actually in the process of writing a technical article about this very topic

oh, neat

where do you post

(Not sure yet if it's going to be a small paper, or a series of small articles)

I'll definitely share it on reddit and matrix/irc when it's ready

To give you a quick highlight (and then I have to go to sleep):

Mining profitability is the ratio between your net mining income (in usd, or any other fiat) and your mining cost (your electricity bill)

The more efficient your mining hardware (H/s/W), and the cheaper your electricity cost ($/kWh), the more profitable you are

also i think its very dangerous to pretend like the 51% thing didnt happen or doesnt mean anything

:/

clearly something isnt ideal

for that to happen at all

As we've said multiple times, that's a completely separate conversation from profitability

A well-educated miner knows that it's best to spread out the hashrate on smaller pools to increase the security of the network

of course

by definition hashrate being well spread out means the opposite of some entity gaining > 51%

The problem is that there are many noobs who don't know/don't care (or sometimes actually think that bigger pool = better) who end up picking the biggest pool (Minexmr) because it's the first on the list, or some low quality guide suggested it

im not saying the incident itself is proof that it was the new world order and all is lost

im saying the incident itself is proof that something is not ideal in the goal to have the hashrate well spread out

Plus, there are a whole bunch of big botnets who also seem not to know better or care (typically because they are run by technically illiterate script kiddies)

yeah, i dont even really suspect that an adversarial entity gained control of the network

just saying it proves something is less than ideal about the whole setup

There's no way to force people to move pools. We can only ask nicely and hope they cooperate - at least out of an instinct of self-preservation

if you change the locks on the front door of your house and your best friend is still able to walk in without a key

But that is completely independent from the actual amount of the mining reward

you are still right to be upset at the security of your system

and constructive criticism is crucial to these kinds of things

If your friend can walk in without a key, that means that the issue wasn't the lock, and you had reason to change it

have you ever heard of peer review

not that im the worlds greatest genius to offer you review, lol

just saying

you shouldnt want to just reflexively attack me as being some asshole

you should want to answer my questions in a logical way

dont you think?

Well that took a turn

was that a yes or a no

it seems like more of a no so far

:/

I'm just trying to give you a detailed explanation and share my knowledge. If you see that as a personal attack, that's on you

ok

And being condescending when you yourself admitted you are not an expert on the topic does not encourage further discussion

well sir, when you begin an engagement with a condescending and trite instruction to someone to dare not speak their 1 or 2 sentences on a particular channel because they should be said on this other channel, it does not exactly command respect

that colored the entire conversation.

just so you know

what you accomplish with that

we very well wasted an entire hour on emotional bs

The goal was to avoid interfering with other people working - which you did

because of that

just so you know.

And now I'm gonna stop wasting my time too :)

ok

Can monero be made prunable to be sustainable?

i spoke like 5 sentences on that other channel btw

it interfered with nothing

good day.

in the last half hour, the following utterances were uttered

selsta • jeffro256[m]: 8828 does not exist

UkoeHB • 8228?

selsta • 8228 is too new to get added to the merge list

selsta • we wait at least 10 days

qwestion: you can prune the blockchain

selsta: so is monero sustainable or will be too resource intensive at some point?

well I don't know what your definition of sustainable is

Pruning since 2019? Someone gaveme dated info it seems , sorry to bother

yes, it cuts the blockchain size to 1/3

merope: can you point to the critical work which was interefered with

upp: are you trolling at this point?

no, this other guy is

clearly

selsta: someone recommended Tari and BEAM because they can scale up by pruning all spent transaction outputs and utilizing payment channels.

the whole point of having different channels is so that the dev channel doesn't get polluted with off topic discussion

So yes monero cant prune all, so unsustainable

qwestion: well there is more than just storage to sustainability

Such as?

honestly raising this simple and obvious point getting this kind of emotional reaction is the kind of childish antics i would expect from the bitcoin community

very disappointed

upp: you are the one who instantly attacked everyone who disagreed with you as a maximalist

but be disappointed and believe whatever you want, you clearly aren't interested in a good faith discussion

good faith is all im after

qwestion: monero's current pruned blockchain is 40gb, and that is over 8 years of blockchain data

selsta: this guy is a persistent troll, not the first rodeo

now if you say what if usage increases significantly, then you will probably run into other limits (like bandwidth) first before storage becomes an issue

i stated like 6 times i dont claim to be an expert, just attempting to engage in good-faith conversation

if you need to be butthurt anyway well good luck to you then

you are the one being super emotional about it lol

you are clearly projecting at this point, or you are trolling

no

time to end this

im the one ending the conversation at this point

good day

merope: didn't see that username before but will keep in mind in the future

you two are just too quick to want to see an enemy thats all

understandable though

please pump price so that mining is more profitable

thx

hey this guy gets it

:D

wait, more people would then mine and profit would be the same

yes profit would be the same

but < MORE PEOPLE WOULD MINE >

< INCREASE SECURITY OF THE NETWORK >

^ this guy gets it

more new miners -> more people following guides that have minexmr as default -> even worse hashrate distribution

oh nooo

lol

was that a logical response to a logical attempt at logical discourse

k

just checking

is everyone in agreement on that?

cuz it seems debatable

feel free to gang up on me though

in a 3rd grade elementary school popularity contest sort of way

because clearly thats what we are after here in the crypto community

when someone makes an attempt at logical discourse

merited or not

freely offering the entirely possible conclusion that their concerns are not in fact merited

3rd grade popularity responses are probably still the right answer

yes?

or does someone with > 3rd grade emotional capacity care to weigh in

also noting the fact that i am in fact also a monero maximalist

for lack of better terminology

monero leads the way by an insane margin of like...infinity

on being leading edge with privacy technology and all the features cryptocurrency should have

you should probably still gang up on me like im just some asshole

good call

bros

selsta, nioc, and

merope

you guys fail here

badly

also, in the last 3 hours

no other utterances were uttered

in the dev channel

just so its clear

how much critical work was interupted

merope, didn't wownero somehow kill pools?

do forks like wownero ever do upgrades?

i was actually wondering that

merope, git.wownero.com/wownero/wownero/pulls/369

upp, wownero is its own coin... theydo their own upgrades and it is way different than monero now

i know its a fork

i was just wondering if its like doge

some guy just forked it for the lulz one day

and never sees updates

maybe they update, i dunno

just wondering

yes, it's updated a lot

i take interest in anything forking from monero, as its at the leading edge of cryptographic technology

i looked at their website and it is 100% based around being a mem

that might work for price pump potentially

makes a person sceptical about an actual dev team though

still waiting on a response from those 2 or 3 i called out like 5 minutes ago

maybe binaryFate or fluffypony has a response

honest conversation?

banned?

lets hear it

hello

probly free speech is terrible

seems reasonable

shoulda banned me like 3 hours ago

right?

selsta:

nioc:

merope:

defend your anti-freespeech position please

seems speech is frowned upon here

is that right

im not sure why its taking so long to respond to

its a simple yes or no

do you like speech

or do you not

hello is anyone alive here

hello

do we like speech or not

im sorry hello

clearly no dev is being impeded here

maybe someone cares to weigh in on speech

is that a yes or a no?

yes?

no?

binaryFate:

fluffypony:

do we like speech or do we not

seems like a simple question

u look like u need to chill dude

i just want an offical answer

on speech

it seems like a clear question

how can these people treat me like im an asshole

when im just trying to have a conversation

it seems like a very clear question

ok u said that, unless you wanna send it as singing telegram chill and wait

can i have an answer on it please

ok

i will wait

wait for those responsible to return, then ask again i guess

thank you for your clarity

interesting of course that the rest of these 3 or 4 cant respond

in the 3 hours or so that ive been simply asking for a reasonable conversation

the question at this point isnt even a technical one

the question at this point is: why cant you response reasonable to a technical conversation?

respond*

sounds kinda like a loaded question

y eah

it seems like we are having a tough time responding reasonably to a reasonable question

why is that

upp, the people in this channel also lead their own lives and may not even be in the same time zone as you.

this is true

i do not dispute this

:)

I'm connected even while sleeping.

im the biggest supporter of monero in the world

and yet im enemy #1 right now

something in this equation is not right

some idiot needed to spend 100% of irc time telling me my 1 sentence comment needed to be in another channel

i understand his autism

but honestly, this transcends his autism right now

why cant a reasonable conversation about monero be entertained within monero chats right now

that seems like the most relevant question right now

try #monero-community or #monero-offtopic ;)

[XMR] Be excellent to each other and welcoming to newcomers || getmonero.org || Dev: #monero-dev || Pool related: #monero-pools || Price chat: #monero-markets || OTC: #monero-otc || People can & do log this channel || DON'T USE Changelly, Freewallet or Minergate: reddit.com/r/monero/wiki/avoid

im a newcomoer

that asswipe was definitely not excellent to me

just saying.

To be fair, the topic is not really specific.

why cant a reasonable discussion about monero not be held in monero chat channels right now

someone please answer this

no idea

fair enough

autism knows no bounds

its true

:>

roflmao

upp, a roundabout "solution" to the monero mining rewards "problem" is merge-mining

it'll be interesting if that happens, especially considering the potential for PoW bans from genius gubment folks, and what that will do to asic networks

because it might lead to a land rush, because someone somewhere mentioned that monero can support maybe 10 merge mined chains

merge with what?

whoever wants the security of the monero mining network

oh rite

China confiscating cpu miners twitter.com/WuBlockchain/status/1509335878589890561

ffs, i just DL'd 1883 tv series cause it looked good, the fuckers canceled it

wc sheeit

Mochi101: yes, but the way they did that was by introducing a nonce-signing step in the mining algorithm. That way, you can't mine on behalf of somebody else (like a pool) without them revealing their private spend key to you in the process

They effectively killed pools, even though the mining algo/protocol has no idea what a pool is

barf, I'll assume there was nothing important in the middle of the spam :/

Not particularly, no

ty

I'm happy to announce that Haveno's CCS proposal has been merged and it's now open for donations! haveno.exchange/2022/03/31/funding-ccs.html

when trying to run p2pool, I'm getting "P2Pool Invalid wallet address." I copied the wallet address directly from the wallet (and it works with minexmr pool), so I find the error quite confusing. what does it signify, if not an invalid wallet address?

Did you use a subaddress (starts with 8) instead of the main address (starts with 4)?

P2pool only works with main addresses

yes

indeed

Did anyone look at the statement of facts for the Lichtenstein and Morgan case darknetlive.com/post/two-arrested-f…len-bitcoin/documents/statement.pdf ?

Item 26 on page 10 says that Lichtenstein converted stolen BTC to the Monero at the first step in his laundering scheme, and the graphics above it explicitly mentions russian email address.

I looked at it when it was released

they used monero for a small amount, but police wasn't able to trace it. they only knew they deposited monero because they had all the exchange logins, or they traced the bitcoin reverse to the exchange

I **doubt** that he used KYC exchanges like Kraken or anything similar where you have to prove your identity. And I assume he received coins in his wallet and then sent them back to himself and then proceeded to swap back to BTC. So, my question is - how did the investigators traced BTC -> XMR -> BTC swap?

4 billion o_O

Yeah, I mean if you can pull out that hack you would be probably be able to understand opsec basics

it's unclear if they are behind the hack, they only got charged for money laundering

For that amount, you just get in the UK govt and fiddle a wee bit with the SA weapon shipments.

ok, it seems that it has nothing to do with Monero security properties - their account was traced to the exchange through fiat deposits

I thought they were traced by using self-hosted email on a VPS where kyc was done, receiving an email about wallmart gift card purchased with BTC from one of the clusters

* VPS hosting with personal identification

lessless: correlations

It's all about breaking correlations or, in the case of the investigators, finding them.

Nebraskka there are no mentions of VPS in the doc :(

ElderMalaclypse what kind of correlations are we talking about here?

personal email server or something, would take a look once more

not sure off the top of my head; just being a little bit of a smartass

sorry

The email thing seems familiar, though.

If I would be a criminal on a pile of stolen BTC, I would convert them to XMR via decentralised exchange. Or at least a swap service using that doesn't have KYC even remotely and of course through the Tor network.

And then just sit and wait

yes pdf shows that not enough opsec were done, multiple correlations were found

and in case gov catches me, then I would assume that security properties of XMR are compromised

lessless: occasionally break off a piece and churn it

Yeah, defo

No automation and patterns though

yep

don't ever recombine big chunks, either

how's that?

You don't want to eventually exit with a chunk whose size matches up with something someone's trying to find.