<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> nobody is someone to everybody

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> but nobody is everybody to someone

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> someone is everybody to FCMP ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> So monero effective ringsize is 4 ? Who changed dsa to make it this shitty ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> What was effective ringsize when xmr was flooded ? 2 or lower?

<e​longated:matrix.org> why can’t we change Dsa right now ? Fcmp is a year+ away from mainnet and rushing it would be disastrous for monero

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> Probably

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Cuz were trying to see "how low can we go" 🎶

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> ruck is more conservative/optimistic than me when it comes to the effective ring size. Whatever he says, i cut it in half

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Other outliers like multi-output tx and tx size are blackmarbles in my book

<e​longated:matrix.org> Something is rotten, when hard questions are asked ppl run away like last time

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> just use xmr as if it has a ring size of 1 and be happy

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> discussions are literally on github bro

<e​longated:matrix.org> Link ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> its like, wownero effectively had 1 ring size for 2yrs, nobody noticed or complained

<e​longated:matrix.org> Nobody uses to avoid draconian actors

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No, it has a decoy selection bug

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Had*. It was selecting decoys from 2022, always

<e​longated:matrix.org> I meant nobody uses it 🤣

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The problem is that it _wasn't changed_. The current decoy selection algorithm is based on the first three years of Monero's blockchain data. (And even then, only about half of txs). Things have changed since then.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Nonsense. Probably 50% of my trades on bsx are wow, and wow has creates some cool shit that ppl used

<e​longated:matrix.org> Trades wow what a use

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The techniques that Moser et al. (2018) used weren't available after consensus enforcement of larger ring sizes. So OSPEAD had to be more clever.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Only read 6 words

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Wow has low tx count, but used to have more than zcash yknow

<e​longated:matrix.org> So why not change it now for effective ringsize ? Or it can’t be done? Xmr has had emergency HF before we can do it now

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> there were numerous proposals and methods to improve rings (like segregating coinbases) that were pretty much production ready

<r​ucknium:monero.social> There wasn't a lot of support for a hard fork to increase nominal ring size after the suspected black marble spam attack last year. If a hard fork was done to increase ring size, the OSPEAD decoy selection algorithm could be implemented at the same time.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And worked on mainnet w/o a hf. But your rings would look different (theyd have no coinbases unless you spent a coinbase, in which case the ring would be all coinbases)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I'm totally against repeatly increasing the ring size

<e​longated:matrix.org> There would be now as effective ring size is 4 , you want wait for something that may or may not be ready in a year

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Can gain like 2-5 more effective decoys by splitting p2pool/coinbases out of normal spend rings

<e​longated:matrix.org> There would be now as effective ring size is 4 , you can’t wait for something that may or may not be ready in a year

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Why bloat the chain for to go from 4 to 5 effective rings (16 -> 20 ring size)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> This code probably still works.. i ran it on my nodes for a while and had pretty rings with no `0/455` "decoys" lol

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> mrl 108 or 109

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Jeffro256 code

<e​longated:matrix.org> Didn’t he mention with dsa change they can increase effective ringsize but needs HF , a small increase in tx size isn’t going to hurt and gives a breathing room for fcmp devs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> probably only needs hf to avoid being able to tell who is vs isnt using the new dsa

<e​longated:matrix.org> Ring size increase was avoided bcoz it needed HF

<e​longated:matrix.org> Now it’s a must

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Like the coinbase racist pr, a casual observer can tell that i'm not using the reference decoy selection algo, because all of my rings are not allowing coinbases to pretend to be the real spends

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Hardly

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Right. The DSA is the responsibility of the wallet. It isn't enforced by consensus or even node relay rules (that's why we have so many nonstandard DSAs that OSPEAD takes pains to deal with).

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Increasing ring size from 16->20 is just 4->5

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> is an E-mom.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> whiff our you’ll ten a jabbed optiousness struggle Drivels of use.

<e​longated:matrix.org> With changed dsa it would be better

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> doesnt need a hf or a ring aize increase

<e​longated:matrix.org> Hopefully wallets pickup new dsa if the paper mentions it

<r​ucknium:monero.social> But then those wallets are in anonymity puddles: github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/b…-spend-with-fungibility-defects.pdf

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Sane open source wallets use the reference dsa

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Ruck, yeah ^

<e​longated:matrix.org> Make it a reference dsa

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> and what about ppl who dont update?

<e​longated:matrix.org> They will have effective ringsize size of 4

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> there are plenty of ppl still running 18.0.0

<e​longated:matrix.org> They r already hurt ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Ya it’s user responsibility

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And this will create anonymity ouddles, and their tx will be decoys in your tz

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Last I checked only a few weeks ago, only about 30% of Wownero txs used the patched DSA. Of course, Wownero is different since it's WOW...and the bug was node-side, not wallet-side.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> There's an update lag

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Their "dirty" decoys are black marbles if youre known to he using the new dsa

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Probably 70% miners :P lol.

<e​longated:matrix.org> Worse than current 4 ring size ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If 50% of the network doesnt update? possibly

<e​longated:matrix.org> That’s why HF

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> dsa

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> Worses.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> You got him; it foots buying, his sewn only lovernment — I avoid the Neo hand. My principle drive almonds was checked.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> If quotin' theorists page_size food", so use art

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> bro HFs arent so simple

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> possibly

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> That’s usual.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> 7. Is it."

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> B: What you parking!"

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> As a year - you getting 90s fake CIA program', anymore width flying, left!

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Read the abstract of this. According to my analysis, if about 5% of users adopt a new DSA, then the probability of guessing the real spend is 31.7%, which is higher than the attack success probability against the current DSA that the OSPEAD analysis found.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> We did it every 6 months and everybody was waiting and ready for the next HF. Never had an issue

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> But spect in they keptiles.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> AGENT BROWN

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> He's switch.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> Q: What's faradays" lol. It are, for bracist of source cause 'e':

<e​longated:matrix.org> Sure, so let’s wait for mythical fcmp

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The last hard fork we lost a lot of nodes and it took a while to recover. Even wallets like monerujo took forever to update

<r​ucknium:monero.social> To have a complete analysis, you would have to guess the patch adoption pace

<e​longated:matrix.org> We give 6 months that’s smog

<e​longated:matrix.org> Enough

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 6 months we'll have fcmo and seraphis tho /s

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Look at the tx volume statistics around the hard fork 👀

<e​longated:matrix.org> Ya 60 months sure

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yeah.. lol 🫣

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Several wallets died. Some never came back.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> (yes I have a link for this too lol)

<e​longated:matrix.org> There were lot of changes, now it would be dsa + ringsize ?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/t…-transactions-with-nonstandard-fees

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Speaking of died, is your node ok 🚑️

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> no, the major change was ring size and view tags

<e​longated:matrix.org> Bp++?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Wallets didnt have to do anything for bp++ lol

<r​ucknium:monero.social> elongated: BP+. Single plus.

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yah, already had pressed enter 😅

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Plusplus is coming with fcmpplusplus

<e​longated:matrix.org> Oof looking forward to 2027

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (i'm joking. It might not be added afaik.)

<e​longated:matrix.org> Quite possible

so does a decreased ring size let others know who I send a tx to?

or how much I sent?

<e​longated:matrix.org> And we jump ringsize to 64

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> nioc, no

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yes the path is known

question wasn't for you ofrnAI lol

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> 2027)

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> The 21st never tu hel. Popeye room othere bool shift lik peop

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> what was the black marble spam attack?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> oh, sorry nioc

:)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Spam attack of full blocks for days/weeks(?)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I've got another link for you: github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/b…d/pdf/monero-black-marble-flood.pdf

<e​longated:matrix.org> I propose we HF in 6 months with better ringsize and dsa, fcmp can come when it’s ready

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The noobs didnt even do a good job. They spammed tx that screwed up the dsa and made it easier to exclude. but if they were smart theyd have done a much more effective flood

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> thanks... and a black marble is just... spam

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I propose that we dont hard fork for more theatrics with rings

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If were pushind new dsa, i'd propose we just push them to release

<e​longated:matrix.org> So we just wait for someone to fork off or take away xmr tx market share ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Back marble means decoys that can be excluded as the real spend. Known bad decoys

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> oooooh

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> okay thanks

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> a p2pool payment is a known black marble, for example

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Youre obviously not spending a p2pool payout when you shop at mcdonalds

<e​longated:matrix.org> I do

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> yeah I get it now from a high level. thanks

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> I personally do an automated churn 119 times before micceydeez

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> xmrchain.net/tx/ef56b89cb86e6e5192a…1d3348af773805da2bf4b0511554b8519/1

<e​longated:matrix.org> Effective ringsize 1

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> that way the hamburglar can't link me to mah buggers

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Heres a 1/2 tx. Do you thibk the real spend is this one `0/697 `

<r​ucknium:monero.social> 🤦 node process was alive, but unresponsive. Now restarted.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Maybe it's this one? `0/731`

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Running release branch or not yet?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The feather nodes are getting ddosed

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Running the patch against the latest CVE

<r​ucknium:monero.social> `0.18.4.0-be0efaf7f`

<e​longated:matrix.org> Anyways I will go to sleep, nothing is going to change MRL will discuss then purpose next meeting b so on by the time fcmp is a year away and this is put in a dustbin

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Feathers list was looking rather pathetic yesterday

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Thanks for noticing. I need to figure out a better uptime monitor & notifier for all my services.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> all of plow's onions were saturated, seths as well. There were only 3 obion nodes that were reachable

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i think tobtoht monitors the nodes in feather

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> So he's probably 1/25 of your max onion connections

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yes, but that requires that _I_ monitor Feather's monitor. Who monitors the monitors?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> More DevOps for me

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Dan (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Qtip USAID Advocate) Backup

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Ruck, what do you think. Should we push jeffros coinbase exclusion dsa and ospead pre-fcmp?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (W/o a hard fork)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero #8815

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero #8815#issuecomment-1497857251

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Look at these pretty ass rings

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Coinbase spend: stagenet.xmrchain.net/tx/e075bf7e3e…9e1b3298965533c04747a557b17abec57/1

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Non-coinbase: stagenet.xmrchain.net/tx/8f2f23db44…330e56a439ee10f5ec048c38d3222a00c/1

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> sweep all (some coinbase, some not): stagenet.xmrchain.net/tx/851ef2ad3a…55f56978f62b3ffa81b78230d1a69dbe9/1

<r​ucknium:monero.social> IMHO, we would need more information before making a decision like that, to make sure the cure isn't worse than the disease. For example, [my fungibility defects research note](github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/b…-spend-with-fungibility-defects.pdf) gives you the privacy risk when the adversary knows for sure th<clipped message>

<r​ucknium:monero.social> at the a tx has a specific defect, but the DSA is probabilistic, so you would want to know the probability of correctly classifying the txs as being constructed with a nonstandard DSA. There are a few papers on that.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> And of course you would have to guess the pace of adoption throughout the ecosystem. There are a few historical instances of this that could give us an idea.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> its hard to do much worst than 4

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> not really. I could spend a couple thousand and flood the network and make it 2 :)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Ppl who dont update would have easily identifiable rings that if they contained coinbases, (decoys that didnt have any coinbases would be more likely to be different /updated wallets)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Or just be pessimist like me and call it 2 already

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I discuss this in Section 16 "Postestimation Classification of On-Chain Rings into DSAs" pages 33 to 34 of

<r​ucknium:monero.social> github.com/Rucknium/OSPEAD/blob/mai…Fully-Specified-Estimation-Plan.pdf

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> I did notice my feather node was processing like double the normal amount of RPC vs normal, about a week ago (I did post a graph on one of the Monero #). Is that related to yesterday attack?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yeah, likely

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Might actually be a good idea to do 2 hardforks back to back, first one to wake up the ecosystem (and dsa) + merge master to release.. theres a lot on master that isnt on release, second one for fcmp.

<t​weaker:calitabby.net> merge master to release.. theres a lot on master that isnt on release, second one for fcmp.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> First hard fork would push out core code that isnt related to fcmp and would prob help eliminate red herrings and make the fcmp hard fork a lot more focused

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I agree with this guy

I don't

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> for example getblocks.bin max blocks response option

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> that there is a need for a wakeup means that the release cadence might be too low

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Imo the reason early hfs went off so smoothly was because it was a par the course to require updating every 6 months

<e​longated:matrix.org> So fcmp++ hf won’t go smooth too ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> This fear of HF is unnecessary, reach out to walllets and providers early and 6 month time should be enough

<e​longated:matrix.org> Or are you proposing 12-24 months for fcmp HF after code is ready for mainnet

<e​longated:matrix.org> Dsa hf + ringsize upgrade benefit is a need of the hour, can’t be a sitting duck

<e​longated:matrix.org> 🦆

<e​longated:matrix.org> Fcmp is nowhere near mainnet, a rush audit and testing will be injustice; imagine wallets not being able to cope with a basic hf but can do fcmp in time 🤣

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> you dont sound like were even using monero during the last HF

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> To say "fear of HFs is unnecessary" shows a great lack of experience, and understanding.

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> last HF shoulda been a wakeup for people to stop using bullshit wallets 😤

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> motherfuckers out here using exodus wallet and shit like goddamn

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Mymonero was down for a couple months iirc. We lost a huge chunk of daily tx

<e​longated:matrix.org> I have been here since monerov fork

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> true, the number of people STILL using MyMonero is actually wild. it might be the most common wakket I've seen IRL randoms using

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The plus side, is with delistings we dont have to rely on major cex to update

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> using MyMonero and the main 4* address for every incoming transaction 😭

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s about time it’s delisted from getmonero

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Why?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Honeypot

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> Carrot will make their current way of doing things obsolete for sure, they better get with the times or get out

<e​longated:matrix.org> No subaddress

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> mymonero is still important

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s not

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> disagree tbh, it's a hinderance

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> it would probably be damaging for it to suddenly disappear, but at the same time....

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> As much as i dont like the privacy of it, not everyone can afford to sync 10gb/mth

<e​longated:matrix.org> Go work on lws

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> stfu

<e​longated:matrix.org> It’s under development for half a decade

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Lws works, and it works with mymonero

<e​longated:matrix.org> Mymonero doesn’t support subaddress

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It also works with edge wallet, but edge wallet is spyware and edge _should_ be removed from getmonero

<e​longated:matrix.org> By default a honeypot

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Its a honeypot by your definition. People can share their view keys with whomever they choose

<e​longated:matrix.org> And here they are forced to share automatically and they don’t even know their privacy is sacrificed

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They arent forced ro share anything

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> You can change the server before creating a wallet

<e​longated:matrix.org> lol by default Mymonero shares viewkeys

<e​longated:matrix.org> And where is this server setup ? Where is that lws.exe ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Edge, on the other hand, requires connecting to edge to create wallets

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Duh, thats how lws works

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> people who defend MyMonero are glowies /hj

<e​longated:matrix.org> No it shares view keys with your own lws or someone whom you trust, with Mymonero it’s by default shared with fluffy n XXX

<e​longated:matrix.org> Can’t be far from truth

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Youre advocating for pulling all lws solutions (regardless of whether they ship a degault server) because you dont have an lws.exe 🤡

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yes corporate public lws, setup your own lws

<e​longated:matrix.org> Don’t trust

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> MyMonero having a web wallet also means it's the most common target for phishing websites

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Youre not anti-mymonero, youre just whining about lws not being double click easy for aunt sarah to run on their windows 98 box

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> like, we tell people not to type their private key into a website, then MyMonero asks people to do literally that

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Sorry bro, but lws requires running a monero node that is configured with zmq as well

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Running your own node, snd running your own lws is not something that grandma should be doing

<e​longated:matrix.org> I am anti centralized lws solutions, if cake tomorrow adds their lws by default it’s closer to a honeypot than it ever was

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Than what ever was?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yah whatever it was is

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It = cake?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Centralised lws will be a downfall for privacy

<e​longated:matrix.org> Any cake monerujo feather bla bla

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> same logic be said for nodes. Feather's community nodes are all marked trusted by default, cakes node is trusted, stacks is trusted

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> privacy isnt black and white

<e​longated:matrix.org> Sure, but I don’t know what they made it trusted

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Running your own node and think youre private? Wrong

<e​longated:matrix.org> With lws your exposing a lot more

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Running your own lws w/o using anon networks or ca signed https, and think youre private? Wrong

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> tbf feather manages it's own tor daemon ootb

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yes a lot more private than giving view keys

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Using a remote node and thinj youre private? Wrong

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> depends on who your hiding from

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> I was about to say, threat profiling is a thing

<e​longated:matrix.org> I run my own node with tor-proxy inbound bla bla, I know my own setup

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> so run your own lws and be happy

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Why should jimbob from zimbabwe have to run a node if he has 256k internet?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Lol yah and have 90% decoys already been exposed by centralized lws

<e​longated:matrix.org> You are living in 2000

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> So are large portions of the world

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (256k was exaggeration btw)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> imagine _insert wallet here_ being LWS supported but not shipping a default server

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Thats just terrible UX

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> if I wanted to prioritize UX I'd just use bitcoin and not deal with all the extra shit privacy brings

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> while i PERSONALLY don't want cake to run an LWS server, if a new wallet was created (or lets use edge as an example), when someone tries to create a monero wallet, theyre told that they need to own a computer and run server software?

<e​longated:matrix.org> That would be a grave mistake, ppl use default you are at par with Mymonero if you don’t

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Monero is still private to your peers when using lws.

<e​longated:matrix.org> That would be a grave mistake, ppl use default you are at par with Mymonero if you do that

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Why does every monero wallet aside from GUI include remote nodes? They should all ship with empty lists

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Same energy

<e​longated:matrix.org> So let’s share viewkeys by default with cex and get relisted

<e​longated:matrix.org> Carrot will allow such keys

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> GUI does even worse. It crawls for random remote nodes!

<e​longated:matrix.org> Let’s bend over

<e​longated:matrix.org> It is worse, but still doesn’t leak your tx history

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Thats your choice

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Users can share their view keys with whoever they want to

<e​longated:matrix.org> Anyone in favour of centralized lws is bending over

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Example: ccs and generalfund view keys have been public forever

<e​longated:matrix.org> That’s for accounting

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Unless everyone runs their own lws, sll lws is centralized

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> yeah defending MyMonero this hard is just comical, then again I've always known ofrnxmr to be a funny guy

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I'm not defending mymonero, the app is shit and i dont trust the backend at all

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> damn I'm confused as shit then

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> But there are 2 wallets that support lws atm. Mymonero and edge, and edge is straight up spyware

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> Oh yeah Edge wallet is worse

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I approved the pr to remove mymonero a long time ago. But ppl need it. Edge needs to go tho. Us recommending spyware is blasphemy

<e​longated:matrix.org> Mymonero or any other having default lws is centralized and bad, make it easy for users to run their own lws and let them share it among their frnds n family

<e​longated:matrix.org> I read vtnerd was looking at scaling solution, that’s just bad and helps centralized collection of view keys

<e​longated:matrix.org> Both Mymonero and edge need to go, do t know who is funding them to be listed

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> funding to be listed?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> getmonero is a community website. Send pr

<e​longated:matrix.org> Not being approved, someone is taking decisions

<e​longated:matrix.org> Is being bribed or controlled

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> youre cooked bro

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> well that's quite an allegation

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Youre on matrix whining

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Go to github and approve it or send a pr

<e​longated:matrix.org> Doesn’t explain how a honeypot stays on getmonero

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yes it does explain it

<e​longated:matrix.org> Were you able to remove edge ? No

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> PR: update site only wallets feather wallet and stack wallet. feather is new official wallet

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> did i try? No

<e​longated:matrix.org> So you don’t care about privacy

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Feather does things in a non-standard way, so i dont think it can be official wallet

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> non standard? nah bro it's the new standard

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Multibroadcast, polyseed (not in monero repo yet), fiat ali/websockets, trusting nodes by default

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Its not standard until its in monero-project repo

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Also feathers cache file is incompatible with cli

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> so the GUI is incompatible with the CLI cause last I checked it was compatible with the GUI cache

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> also these are all optional features

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> to be fair, gui does dumb shit like "simple mode" that is not standard and kinda retarded at the same time

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> anyway I'm mostly joking casue the official GUI sucks dick and this whole convo is silly anyway

<n​eromonero1024:monero.social> does carrot allow something like this?

<n​eromonero1024:monero.social> you send a view-only key to a remote lws, it scans and sends back potential txs that belongs to that wallet

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> carrot will allow something like LWS without giving up nearly as much info

<e​longated:matrix.org> Carrot allows much more than that

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> One of us is wrong :P, i dont know which. But iirc, the cache file for feather is diff then gui and cli

<n​eromonero1024:monero.social> unlike current view-only key that can decode all the incoming inputs

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> I haven't used the GUI in forever so it could very well be me, but I did used to use both of them to interact with the same wallet file

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> "Official GUI" is the worst name ever btw

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> normies don't even know wtf a GUI means

<e​longated:matrix.org> With view key you get exact incoming tx which belongs to you and some other tx where your coins might be spent ; with some analysis and effective ring size as 4 I am sure they can see both incoming and outgoing as 100%

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I agree that the official gui is not-good. Feathers UX is great, but it deviates too far from reference imo

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Go approve the issue to rename it to "Monero desktop"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Couple years old at this point

<m​onero.arbo:matrix.org> I bet if it could be made "official" by tweaking a few default tobtoht would be ammenable ;)

<e​longated:matrix.org> Make tobtoht defaults as reference 😅

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> would need to

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 1. a) drop polyseed b) add polyseed to monero repo

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 2. a) not trust nodes by default

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 3. use release branch

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 4. Drop websocket and other plugins

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 5. Probably drop tor binary

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 6. Use same behavior for change destibstions (i cant remember atm but iirc feather sends chsnge to same subaddr while reference sends to primary)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 7. There are other differences from custom impl, like how feather had bug for number of outputs in the chain

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 8. Prob drop community nodes

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 9. Etc

<e​longated:matrix.org> Feather-Lite

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #1759

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2282

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2162

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2162#issuecomment-1535193359

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/monero-site #2162#issuecomment-1539101272

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Consensus was to only remove wallets that did not allow users to input their own lws

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Lyza elongated

<e​longated:matrix.org> Disappointing

<e​longated:matrix.org> Let’s show them a carrot

<e​longated:matrix.org> A 🥕 which has been perpetual development

<e​longated:matrix.org> A 🥕 which has been in perpetual development

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> perpetual like 6 months lol

<e​longated:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: is there a guide to setup lws on windows/mac ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> LWS is been in development for 6 months ?

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> carroyt

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> yeah there was an effort a while ago to try and rename the GUI

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i don't think "Monero Desktop" was ever proposed lol. I kinda like it

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i think he meant carrots been in dev for 6 months

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It was

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> huh

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Let me find it

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero-project/meta #384#issuecomment-1226221074

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> For mac, you just build it the same as you would on linux afaik. I dont have a mac tho

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> ah yeah, 3 years after the last post.

<e​longated:matrix.org> By carrot I meant lws , not carrot carrot but actual 🥕 🐇

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> lol

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> any wagers on how long a core2duo with a spinny HDD on the 2for1 writes patch will take?

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> sync, that is

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> and pruned nonetheless

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> with 4g ram

just catching up

only official wallet is CLI :D

I had a core2duo with spinny HDD

monerod killed it lol

the HDD that is

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> but now, less writes!

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I think pruned takes longer

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> damn. well this 250 gb drive aint gonna do well with the full fat db

so instead of 1 month+ I guess less :)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> My old laptop was like 2 months and i have up after a week

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> gave*

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (Then synced it on an sd card from my phone in under a week)

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> dangit. i can't find my old post where i tested these laptops for sync time

<c​rimsonleaf363:matrix.org> Do we know when we're expected to get FCMP?

1 year steps are, 1) complete the coding 2) initial testnet 3) public testnet 4) release the...release and then 6 months till hardfork

audits are also in there

which happen before the testnet

some audits are already completed

<e​longated:matrix.org> ~2027

<e​longated:matrix.org> Maybe 2028 with fcmp seraphis

FCMP++ and Carrot in 1 year

from whenever the question when is asked

<e​longated:matrix.org> 1+ year

want to make a bet?

<e​longated:matrix.org> 10xmr ? Date?

before 2027 and make it 50

oh you said ~2027

so 1st half 2026

<e​longated:matrix.org> Ooof ~2027 means around 2027 , give a date

just did

<e​longated:matrix.org> By 31st march ? I don’t bet more than I can afford to lose, so 10xmr ?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Or 1st July 2026

1st July 2026 is good

but I may be ded by then :D

<e​longated:matrix.org> Great, ofrnxmr escrow !

0_o

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Both of you send half to escrow

<e​longated:matrix.org> Cats don’t die

<e​longated:matrix.org> Nico ?

I am currently on my 9th life

<e​longated:matrix.org> Haha

<e​longated:matrix.org> It will go to general fund if you die

<e​longated:matrix.org> 🤣

<e​longated:matrix.org> So are you ok with ofrnxmr as escrow

need to think about that part

<e​longated:matrix.org> Haha

<e​longated:matrix.org> Offer stands for 24 hours, do ping

ok

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> You must think real low of me if you think I'd run with the xmr

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Even if xmr is 50k by july 2026

<e​longated:matrix.org> Oof imagine

I don't think low, I haven't thought is the issue

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> thats why yall need escrow. If price goes up too much, someone might back out of the arrangement

<e​longated:matrix.org> 🥕 🐈

<e​longated:matrix.org> There is so much work pending on fcmp, audits, wallets, tests ; ~2027 is closest time frame

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> we're already behind schedule i think. Carrot and initial brand-new testnet should be out already from projections

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> @nioc your bet is that the hard fork binaries will be out by july 2026? Or that we'll have hard forked by then?

binaries released

<e​longated:matrix.org> Get fcmp = binaries ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I think we _should_ hard fork July 1, 2025 (Coinbase DSA + OSPEAD + master) -> new HF binaries released Jan 1 2026 with next hard fork targeted for july 1, 2026

<e​longated:matrix.org> Agreed, just throw in extra rings

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> hardforking testnet some time between july 2025 and jan 2026

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Fk that

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Id prefer reducing rings to 11 again if the dsa is fixed. Only reason we keep bumping is because the decoys are trash

already too late to hardfork July 1, 2025

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Bloating the chain for a year is ill advised imho

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> <n​ioc> already too late to hardfork July 1, 2025 << we dont have cexs

we have at least 3

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Just mining pools and wallets to worry abt. Hard fork should be a simple one since dsa isnt consensus

and hardware wallets

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Kraken, mexc, kucoin, trade ogre. 2 of those are the same shit :P and all should update w/o a hassle

hardware wallets have been an issue in the past

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Trezor, ledger etc should be simple updates, the july HF wouldnt brind any breaking changes aside from the height

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> In any event, if it did, we should be get those "basic" changes solved ahead of FCMP HF

just move to wownero, they already have a ringsize of 22

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Otherwise thr FCML HF will be jam packed full of (likely hundreds) of changes that are on master (like c++17)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> <n​ioc> just move to wownero, they already have a ringsize of 22 << elongated doesnt like wow

why tho, it's the purest thing out there

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> But i agree. Wow should do the july HF first, maybe can do on april 20

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> nioc, idk. he's probably a zcoiner or smthn

<e​longated:matrix.org> I don’t use wow, nobody accepts wow

ruck accepts wow

<e​longated:matrix.org> I have more wow than ztrash

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> rucknium.me/donate

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Has nothing open for funding atm tho

<e​longated:matrix.org> I always donate xmr

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> I think the criticism of a lag in updating to the HF isn't really a big deal. If you need to use monero, you will update lol. The only problem is exchanges and wallets lagging I guess. Maybe we can even convince the @monero Twitter to announce it....nah that's asking too much

lol

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yeah bro. Whatever youre smoking, give me some of it

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> @monero is useless

lol = twitter comment

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> Guys did you hear about porc fest?!?!?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> What happened

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> @monero tweeted yesterday about it lol.

community notes ofrnxmr: ruck has march-may open for funding

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> When did that open>??

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I square to gawd i checked like 24hrs ago

is it March already?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> ruck probably updated it after i sent the above msg /s

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Seriously tho. I checked like 24hrs ago and it wasnt there

<c​rimsonleaf363:matrix.org> How are Monero Chads managing their healthy screen time allocation for their degoogled devices?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> plowsof, translate to english please

<b​asses:matrix.org> GrapheneOS?

<b​asses:matrix.org> discuss.privacyguides.net/t/gos-or-ios/24307/48

crimsonleaf363:matrix.org <- "degoogled" doesn't really apply to a computer, so I guess you're talking about a phone. Well, in this case it manages itself, a small screen with no keyboard isn't really comfortable for prolonged use.

lol

I do have such a problem on the laptop tho. The "one last thing before turning off".

<c​rimsonleaf363:matrix.org> Always

<c​rimsonleaf363:matrix.org> I rarely use a laptop. It has to be required because the app is desktop only.

I find it weird. It is just way more comfortable than a phone. Even after I could trust my phone's OS to not upload my data to the cloud, I can't imagine it being more than a secondary device.

<c​rimsonleaf363:matrix.org> Great rec. Do you use an alternative to Digital Wellbeing?

<p​reland:monero.social> Shhhh don’t leak my future project plans for after my bounty is done ;)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> ofrnxmr: Whenever I release something big, I make sure my donation ducks are in a row. Bizniz 😎

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I've gotten seven more stars on my OSPEAD GitHub repo since Friday. Also bizniz 😎

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> > I think we _should_ hard fork July 1, 2025 (Coinbase DSA + OSPEAD + master) -> new HF binaries released Jan 1 2026 with next hard fork targeted for july 1, 2026

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> do you think we could pull this off, Rucknium

<r​ucknium:monero.social> AFAIK, the 6 months lead time was suggested by sech1 because a revision of RandomX is desired. Therefore, miners connected to mining pools, who so the hashing, would need to upgrade, too. If the RandomX revision wasn't included, possibly the lead time could be less. I don't remember the exact lead time on the last hard fork, but I think it was about 2 months. Lead time = time betw<clipped message>

<r​ucknium:monero.social> een final binaries available and the hard fork. I'll check

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Actually, less than a month (July 20 2022 to August 13, 2022): github.com/monero-project/monero/releases/tag/v0.18.0.0

As far as I remember, intention always was to release early, certainly earlier than mere 2 months before HF, but we failed to execute, so to say

<r​ucknium:monero.social> That's what I recall, too. This was after unscheduled delays. And the official date had to be moved once, after it was announced.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> yeah

Wen 0.18.4

<e​longated:matrix.org> This month hopefully

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> whats date

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \> be like Dan

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \> spawn at 7:30 pm UTC

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \> go in all channels and write dumb joke

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \> leave

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Rucknium: d_EBRUYNE is purposefully and very, extremely clearly diminishing your work here: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1ivnef8/comment/mee7chm

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> > To be clear, I am not trying to diminish Rucknium's commendable work

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Yes I can't read why do you ask?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> It's easy to take a few sentences of 100 pages out of context, but usually dishonest people would do that. The OSPEAD estimates of Monero's real spend age distribution are based 100% on data from the Monero blockchain and its txpool.

Hello, is there anyone here who knows how to configure monerod?

I'm trying to setup i2p but it seems to be incompatible with my node being https

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Go to #monero-support

<r​ucknium:monero.social> i2p isn't easy

Oh, ok thanks, I did not see #monero-support mentioned on the site

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I was kidding just in case, he is not trying to diminish your work it was sarcasm. I thought I was being clear... or is your statement already assuming i was joking? anyway, if you want to give a response

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Synbhebird (no paper, maybe too hard for a cat): Thanks for being the messanger :)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> My response is:

<r​ucknium:monero.social> > You are misinterpreting the research. The OSPEAD estimates of Monero's real spend age distribution are based 100% on data from the Monero blockchain and its txpool. I expect few people would read and understand dozens of pages of the statistical theory about _why_ it works. Therefore, I include an example simulation with LTC data to show _that_ it works. Anyone can run it and se<clipped message>

<r​ucknium:monero.social> e that it works. Read the rest of the docs. I go through a lot of detail about how exactly I manage the Monero data and get the final results based only on Monero data.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> > On the limitations of the research, yes there are limitations, such as the ring members not being independent, which affects the accuracy of the estimate. Those limitations are discussed throughout the documents instead of collected in a single section. The documents are not in the form of a scientific research article and were never intended to be (That could came later, but th<clipped message>

<r​ucknium:monero.social> at's more work to be done). They are intended as review materials for the OSPEAD scientific review committee, which consists of Artic.Mine, i.sthmus, and h.yc

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> posted 🫡

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Ask for a correction or we sue

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> why such hate? dev tax?

<e​longated:matrix.org> Obviously + zooko n gang bending over

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I just hate zcash because it's israeli

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> ... for regulartors?

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> i think that's wrong, unless very deeply hidden

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> i'm not a huge fan myself just curious

<e​longated:matrix.org> Binance

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> timesofisrael.com/zcash-the-israeli…rtual-money-starts-to-make-its-mark

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1389890.0

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> I'll look at those links

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> its so cute this core2duo thinks it will sync in 2.3 days

<l​za_menace:monero.social> i missed the LWS discourse

<l​za_menace:monero.social> vtnerd's lws is a fully working solution, i believe subaddress support is also working as of mid 2024

<l​za_menace:monero.social> mymonero can be forked and modified, but the source code has been updated to remove sending priv view keys: mymonero/mymonero-app-js #458

<l​za_menace:monero.social> i had a working deployment on a vps with fully web based lightwallet

<l​za_menace:monero.social> only gripe is that mymonero is bloated, hard to work with, and lacks modern features

<l​za_menace:monero.social> need a better wallet option with tailored LWS support

<e​longated:matrix.org> Surely will be ready by fcmp

<e​longated:matrix.org> Soon tm

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> I like how there's not multiple types of privacy available in monero, that's a clean look. However people talking about current condition of small number of effective decoys is .. not

aren’t we supposed to kick repeat trolls?

<l​za_menace:monero.social> nah, the use case is too niche, only for power users. not worth the dev effort

<l​za_menace:monero.social> i know ur being sarcastic

<e​longated:matrix.org> Vtnerd is working on wallet part so it will come soon

dont worry, elongated

<e​longated:matrix.org> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/553

<e​longated:matrix.org> Complete LWS frontend (using wallet_api.h as interface) so that wallets can begin using LWS API easily. This is separate from woodser et al working on LWS API within wallet2 which may be deprecated.

I already have all of that working

hello endogenic

no one is likely to believe what I’ve had to handle to continue working, but I really am just about to release once i have my infra sorted

<e​longated:matrix.org> We have been waitingggggg

hey

yeah, that’s about all you’ve been doing

aside from trolling

<e​longated:matrix.org> Looking forward to it

meanwhile, I was homeless and lived in a van

<e​longated:matrix.org> Most of us know, please open a ccs so we can fund your project

Thank you for your suggestion

<l​za_menace:monero.social> Endo has been saying that for years

oh another troll

you guys should put your sponsors next to your handles

<l​za_menace:monero.social> lol

<e​longated:matrix.org> Yes he isn’t finding resources to complete it I guess

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> oh no

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> drama

it’s not about the resources, although if I did have another developer, that would help quite a bit

<l​za_menace:monero.social> Was poking fun, yall too sensitive

<l​za_menace:monero.social> Rooting for him

<e​longated:matrix.org> Open ccs, put out the code and ask dev help and you could compensate them for their time ?

ok

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I'm not rooting... `Permission Denied`

i’m talking to an MIT grad rn

i’ll let him know

<e​longated:matrix.org> Progress is all everyone here wants

oh

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> the times of israel link says "Zcash was developed by researchers at Johns Hopkins University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States and Tel Aviv University and the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology in Israel. Only five of the six people who developed the cryptography have been publicly identified." I think the 5/6 is a misunderstanding. but I do <clipped message>

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> think that the rest is right, but IDK about MIT connections. so this one just says 'researchers from these countries made open source cryptography.' I agree that's right. The second link says "the project is demonstrably an Israeli-US alliance" which is I guess echoing the same concerns but making it about the nations instread of where researchers are...

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> still reading tho... for argument, if monero code (and BTC) came from anon contrib, that could be from anywhere too

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> for me the open source is the important part and all projects share this. isn't FCMP building off of some of that ztech anyway?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> mhm you are right. I was somewhat persuaded to have seen passed that Electric Coin company was israeli tho

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> maybe shareholders, if Electric Coin company have shares

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i'll have to look into it

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> dev tax and compliance is .. uncypherpunk tho

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> IMO