-
louipcm
-
Torr
The XMPP room isn't bridged here, right?
-
Torr
MUAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
-
Torr
-
louipcm
lol who they sending to
-
dEBRUYNE
-
dEBRUYNE
Anyone from Monero Bounties that can clarify what is going on here?
-
Inge
seems to me archeactive is dipping his toes in the Monero Community :D
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I will tell you what's going on here, I completed their bounty, I got evidence, they censored me, stolen the presentation of my code and the proof including the videos that WAS my idea, they added more requirements for the bounty to avoid giving it. And lastly after coding in the shadows for months thinking I could finally get an accomplishment in this community, they add more details to the bounty which apparently
-
bridgerton[m]
they "discussed in their community" (r/monero mods claim that never happened officially) and despite people agreeing with me, they walk away with the bounty and nobody cares.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And this is the tip of the iceberg, just go look at the post all the evidence is there, nothing is hidden from my side.
-
Halver[m]
<b0t[m]> "hello, are there any matrix..." <- #xmrmine:matrix.org
-
plowsof[m]
This comment is poking a few holes in the solution e.g. its not trustless)
old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/r4…tomic_swaps_are_now_live_on/hmi52kd
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> They never told me they wanted it trustless too.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can make it if you guys want it, but I am not handing shit to your devs.
-
rbrunner
With the danger of drawing your anger on me: "Atomic swaps" have to be, IMHO, trustless by definition. Or, in reverse, something that needs trust is not an atomic swap.
-
kayabaNerve
-
kayabaNerve
I left a reply I feel is extremely competent at answering this
-
kayabaNerve
archeactiX: We can discuss this here if you want
-
kayabaNerve
It summarizes as you have a critical fault making this non-atomic, not to mention several missing source files, no tests, and your repo is currently in violation of copyright law and an insult to the Monero developers
-
kayabaNerve
I mean, technically that last part isn't relevant to claiming the bounty. I'm not sure we required you to follow the law when you submitted it...
-
kayabaNerve
But it does go to show your Git repo has multiple issues and it shouldn't even be considered a submission at this time
-
kayabaNerve
archeactiX: "They never told me they wanted it trustless too." This is the most bullshit comment I've ever seen in this field for the exact reason rbrunner described
-
kayabaNerve
I'd recommend you read the BTC Wiki's article on atomic swaps in order to understand their fundamental nature.
-
kayabaNerve
Also, you were obligated by the bounty to provide TX hashes. You were asked for these on Reddit and didn't provide any.
-
kayabaNerve
Finally, you claim this took you months and anyone who questions you should be ashamed for daring to challenge such a hard and devoted worker, yet you have like 800 lines of code here. That's not months of work.
-
kayabaNerve
So it's really just you attempting to cause drama and emotionally manipulate the community because you're pissed your submission was rightfully rejected.
-
kayabaNerve
If you do submit all the source files, as several are missing, and you do believe this protocol is atomic, and can provide the relevant tests to prove your work is atomic and secure, then I'll still advocate you get paid out. Right now, this is an incomplete project with an invalid protocol, and no proof for it, as I've previously stated, though.
-
kayabaNerve
*Missing code probably does turn the total from 800 to, I'd assume, 1600-ish? Maybe 2k?
-
kayabaNerve
ASMR, currently supporting 5 coins, is 6000. It's for 5 coins, AKA 1200 per coin, AKA 2400 for just two if it was a linear function (it's not but...). It took one month. Maybe this took you two? At most? I feel like your commentary of months suggest 3-6 but I guess with sufficient missing code it could be technically correct @ 2
-
kayabaNerve
Or yes, you could just be a slower developer and this did take you months. I'm just cutting into your claims you're using to emotionally manipulate the community in order to extort money from the bounty arbitrators because... what was the reason... oh yeah. You're emotionally manipulating the community to avoid the cold hard facts
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Trustless in what sense? What do you people mean by trustless? Like the development?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The development is trustless, and you can make the usage part trustless as well, this guy had no idea what he is on about, let me explain:
-
kayabaNerve
archeatiX You can cheat as the XMR sender twice
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The most significant problem seems to be that our code handles the interaction based on the UI, which they say is not "trust-less". The program is open source, which mean in a sense the UI can become everything you want, the UI presented in the demo isn't the final version, we just added something to make it look less like shit, that's it, the backend IS TRUSTLESS.
-
kayabaNerve
You can either never create a TX sending to Alice, instead locking with H("") and revealing with "", and even if you do submit a valid XMR TX, there's a race condition
-
kayabaNerve
No. You explicitly say the only reason Bob creates a valid TX to Alice is because the UI handles it.
-
kayabaNerve
Fork the UI to be whatever you want, Bob is now not creaating valid TXs, Alice gets scammed
-
kayabaNerve
If you protocol was trustless, Alice would be guaranteed to get the XMR. You both never confirm Alice has a chance of obtaining XMR AND have a race condition leaving it up to luck
-
kayabaNerve
Except it's not up to luck. Whoever creates the TX will always be able to publish first. XMR node policy will keep the first seen no matter what. Because of that, Bob will always win the race
-
kayabaNerve
So you have two critical issues and no solution. I already wrote up "What if Bob sends the XMR TX paying Alice to Alice in advance?" on Reddit. It doesn't work.
-
kayabaNerve
Bob can either still scam Alice via the race condition or, if you have Alice wait to lock until after Bob's XMR TX to her, she can scam Bob of his XMR by never locking ETH
-
kayabaNerve
And again, you're missing several files and don't have the necessary tests.
-
kayabaNerve
You should at least fix your Git repo before we even continue this discussion
-
kayabaNerve
> After Bob claims Alex's ETH, his timelock is still in effect, giving Alex the chance to claim Bob's XMR before he does.
-
kayabaNerve
This is your fundamental misunderstanding.
-
kayabaNerve
Neither party can claim until the timelock expires.
-
kayabaNerve
So if Bob claims ETH with a valid XMR TX, Bob does have a chance at keeping the XMR by a race condition as both parties can submit valid TXs when the timelock expires. That's technically by internet speed/propagation routes, which I'd define as luck, and not actually based on any first mover advantage as I previously posited due to the mutual effects of the timelock, sorry.
-
kayabaNerve
But there's absolutely no verification Bob claims the ETH with a valid XMR TX. None of your written designs cover that scenario. Bob can claim a TX hash of H(""), get ETH locked to that, and reveal with "". Then Alice has nothing.
-
kayabaNerve
This is why the actually atomic protocol is such an involved process involving advanced cryptography.
-
kayabaNerve
So if you do have a solution in code, and you just suck at writing your design, great. I'm personally willing to move past that.
-
kayabaNerve
I'd just need to read your code and understand it for myself. You never submitted complete or even working code.
-
kayabaNerve
It has 0 XMR files in the "backend" except the illegally hosted Monero EXEs.
-
kayabaNerve
So you at least need to fix your Git repo, as I've noted a few times now.
-
Inge
Monero Timelocks are not like bitcoin time locks.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> They never included that in their bounty but you know what.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I'm going to go ahead and do that cause you guys ask for it right now.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Stay tuned.
-
Inge
I'm not going to comment on the bounty itself - just that what everyone is looking for are real trustless atomic swaps \o/
-
kayabaNerve
archeactiX: It's the definition of atomic.
-
kayabaNerve
Literally the definition.
-
kayabaNerve
A trustless way to exchange coins without a third party.
-
kayabaNerve
If it was okay to have a protocol involving trust, I'd send you 100 XMR and expect you to send back 8 ETH and we'd call it a day.
-
kayabaNerve
Which means your protocol is completely over engineered and worthless.
-
kayabaNerve
You know it needs to be trustless because you designed something you marketed as atomic and trustless, mimicking actually atomic protocols, in an attempt to push your agenda. Whether this is ignorance or maliciousness, I couldn't comment.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Literally the part of code that's not trustless is a 2 hours work dude.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I was hurrying up to finish the bounty's requirements.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause I knew you guys would pull this shit on me.
-
kayabaNerve
I don't see any solution due to the problems I described on Reddit. If you can find one, feel free to.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You will get your solution don't worry.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> In hours.
-
kayabaNerve
Except if noot had that same policy, that it was okay to submit invalid work, they would've claimed it weeks ago.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Just know how to be more descriptive and let deceiving in your bounties from now on.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Your noot submitted invalid work.
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kayabaNerve
So you're admitting your solution is invalid and you solely wanted to beat another party to the punch, regardless of merit.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Stop lying.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> My solution wasn't invalid, you turned it invalid and made an actual invalid solution valid.
-
kayabaNerve
I'm not commenting on noot right now, except to say that they took a very different approach
-
kayabaNerve
You never provided TXs
-
kayabaNerve
TXs were a requirement
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's cause I have to go purchase ethereum right now again after my own tests.
-
kayabaNerve
You hate noot for having Arbitrum TXs, which I'd argue is acceptable despite the technicality, when you never provided any
-
kayabaNerve
Except you never provided any initially either
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No it's not acceptable according to your own bounties, you said in main.net and main.net changes everything.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> She provided a solution for test.net.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I provided a solution according to what you asked for main.net then you added another requirement.
-
kayabaNerve
So you're really just being a hypocrite for attacking noot on that premise. You're also admitting you submitted invalid work to spite another party and voided the intention of the bounty, which is first come, first serve.
-
kayabaNerve
Arbitrum isn't a testnet
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And the missing files are monero rpc connection, which is common sense in monero.
-
kayabaNerve
At all
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You skipped past that too.
-
kayabaNerve
It's a mainnet
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yes it is.
-
kayabaNerve
wat
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's a second layered protocol, aka a test net.
-
kayabaNerve
...
-
kayabaNerve
Okay, got it, you're either dedicated af to this bit because you really want money for your invalid work, or you truly are just incompetent and frustrated.
-
kayabaNerve
Regardless, I'm discussing noot here to call you a hypocrite, not to pass judgement on their work.
-
kayabaNerve
And if you want to claim your original submission is any form of valid (even though it needs more work), it'd still need TX hashes as you have so very well pointed out.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So far I can dictate four things about your whole agenda:... (full message at
libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/do…adcbf0b1f04964f62f850eb5a42dfd58070)
-
kayabaNerve
So unless you can provide TX hashes dated to your original submission, I'd argue that's enough to void it and leave it to the arbitrators to decide if noot's code meets the criteria AND if Arbitrum, which is a mainnet and an ETH equivalent, which uses ETH, is a valid TX host. Else, the discussion would continue from there.
-
kayabaNerve
I'm still eager to see your continued work.
-
kayabaNerve
Also, no, it's not just a Monero RPC file. There's a lot of Monero TX handling required here, even with your design.
-
kayabaNerve
Because if you do truly have a solution, it'd be incredibly impressive.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You insist that arbitrum is main.net huh?
-
kayabaNerve
But even if you solved the invalid XMR TX issue
-
kayabaNerve
Even if
-
kayabaNerve
You still have the XMR claim race condition
-
kayabaNerve
It's unavoidable as long as Bob's private keys are in complete control of the funds.
-
kayabaNerve
There's no way around it as you based your work on a misunderstanding of XMR timelocks. Alice is not able to claim before the timelock expires.
-
kayabaNerve
Even if Alice has a valid TX to her, when the timelock expires, Bob can sign and publish his own spending TX in a race.
-
kayabaNerve
Atomic swaps are not allowed to have such race conditions. It basically means Alice has a 50% chance of getting scammed.
-
kayabaNerve
Atomic swaps guarantee a lack of funds loss if the protocol is observed.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX>
-
bridgerton[m]
-
kayabaNerve
A 50% chance of losing funds, even if you observe the protocol, is not a guarantee.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> According to the official ethereum it's not main.net yet.
-
kayabaNerve
You have no idea what a mainnet is
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If you think that just cause it works on arbririum it works on main.net too what can I say, you're ignorant.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Let's get to the rest of what you're asking now.
-
kayabaNerve
A mainnet is not required to be a standalone netwrok
-
kayabaNerve
A mainnet just means it's code ready for use in production. A layer 1 is a standalone network.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yes it does for cross chain applications.
-
kayabaNerve
Arbitrum is not a L1. It is a L2.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's a totally different interconnection.
-
kayabaNerve
It is a mainnet.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No it's not it's a test version of a potential main.net
-
kayabaNerve
No. It's not
-
kayabaNerve
Arbitrum has explicitly stated they will not release their own token and will remain on ETH
-
kayabaNerve
The current discussion is about it becoming an ETH 2.0 shard eventully
-
kayabaNerve
Regardless, this is not a XMR discussion, nor does it change what you need to work on, nor does it change anything about my position
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Again, it's not officially accepted as main'net and it doesn't operate as main'net.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Is that so hard to understand?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No it doesn't.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's my bad I didn't assume you guys would want a full exchanger.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If you had specified in the bounty this wouldn't had happened.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But claiming what noot made it's a main'net subscription it's a bs.
-
kayabaNerve
I didn't write the bounty. I'm telling you its requirements you've failed to meet. I'm not responsible for paying it out. I have never lied or deleted comments.
-
kayabaNerve
The bounty clearly says it's for atomic swaps.
-
kayabaNerve
You did not write an atomic protocol, and therefore your implementation does not implement atomic swaps. It's that simple.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I did not write a trustless* atomic protocol.
-
kayabaNerve
No one accepted noot's work, so you can't claim the arbitrators contradicted themselves regarding the network.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The function is exactly the same it misses one automation.
-
kayabaNerve
Atomic protocols are tustless.
-
kayabaNerve
They're trustless by nature.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You sure about that right?
-
kayabaNerve
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the definition of atomic and of how Monero timelocks work.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> About that claim right there.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That atomic protocols are trustless by nature.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> All the time.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> 100%?
-
kayabaNerve
Atomic protocols are guaranteed to execute.
-
kayabaNerve
Yours is not.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Nah answer the question.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I will give you one that guarantees it for free dude.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It just annoys me how you're ignorant and you insist on this cause you got caught lying.
-
kayabaNerve
Yes. Because atomic protocols are guaranteed to execute, they can be considered trustless
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Uhhh.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Listen.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Nothing is guaranteed to execute all the time.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's literally impossible with cross chain technology.
-
kayabaNerve
The conditions for execution are funds equivalent to what was put in.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You can only add an escrow-system / automation to make it 0.00000000001% possibility not to.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Which again, is different.
-
kayabaNerve
You aren't guaranteed to receive the other set of funds.
-
kayabaNerve
You're guaranteed to receive a set of funds.,
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You are if you do everything right.
-
kayabaNerve
Your protocol does not guarantee that.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I even described a solution to the protocol.
-
kayabaNerve
No, no, the other party can walk away and you won't receive their funds. You're right in that sense.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> My idea was for the users to decide on a timeframe, then at that point, the monero-seller's timelock would automatically be added a certain timespan to ensure their timelock would be longer than the eth-seller's.
-
kayabaNerve
But you'd be guaranteed to receive your funds back in that case.
-
kayabaNerve
That doesn't prevent the inevitable race condition.
-
kayabaNerve
Nor does it prevent the ETH from being invalidly claimed.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Uhhhh.
-
kayabaNerve
If Alice locks ETH to whatever Bob specifies, Bob can claim it without a valid XMR TX. It's that simple.
-
kayabaNerve
The lock times have nothing to do with it.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If I provide you with the TX's today will you admit you are wrong?
-
kayabaNerve
You'd need Alice to verify the XMR TX in advance, which isn't possible.
-
kayabaNerve
No, no, your swap protocol works as well as me sending you for 8 ETH and asking for 100 XMR back is.
-
kayabaNerve
You can provide "successful" swap TXs.
-
kayabaNerve
What you can't provide is successful TXs to reclaim funds upon issue, no matter what the counterparty submits.
-
kayabaNerve
> test cases for failure cases (unit and integration tests)
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Again, how are you going to pull that thing when both parties must agree on a price for the transaction (swap) to happen.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Explain.
-
kayabaNerve
It's one of the requirements. You need tests verifying your code handles failure cases.
-
kayabaNerve
Which means you must support all failure casees.
-
kayabaNerve
The prices mutually agreed upon aren't relevant.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Explain how so.
-
kayabaNerve
Your protocol is no more secure then me sending you ETH and asking for XMR, at which point you can walk away.
-
kayabaNerve
... because the code for 5 XMR for 5 ETH is the same as 5 XMR for 10 ETH?
-
kayabaNerve
Execution paths don't differ based on USD value of the funds?
-
kayabaNerve
They're integers used as variables and those integers are valid as long as they meet requirements?
-
kayabaNerve
So price is an irrelevant discussion.
-
kayabaNerve
Right now, you have Bob provide a TX hash. There's no proof that maps to a proper TX. Alice is supposed to lock their ETH to it. Bob can claim the ETH in that case. Alice does not have XMR.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Invalidly claiming ETH is meant to be prevented by keeping the metadata from the non-relayed monero transaction a secret from the xmr-seller.
-
kayabaNerve
Extending the XMR time lock does not benefit Alice. The ETH was already claimed and there's still no XMR TX.
-
kayabaNerve
So Bob is the one selling the XMR and creating the TX.
-
kayabaNerve
Alice would need the full TX in advance in order to verify Bob's hash is accurate.
-
kayabaNerve
The problem is, that means revealing the full TX in advance, meaning Alice can simply claim the XMR.
-
kayabaNerve
*Assuming Alice now locks ETH after being shown the XMR TX. If she continues to lock ETH before, Bob can ignore Alice and simply claim with ""
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I disagree with you completely and you don't seem to understand, but due to how you're a privacy fanatic from the looks of it, I am going to solve that issue and upload it for MAIN NET not a LAYER PROTOCOL.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But don't claim you achieved the first atomic swaps when they are in test.net
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Also don't censor me.
-
kayabaNerve
If you can provide test cases proving your code handles all failure rates discussed, I won't have an issue.
-
kayabaNerve
I never censored you. I literally have 0 powers over any XMR group.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Alright, so you want an automation of the monero rpc node, (the missing files you mentioned is that actually) and the trustless part done.
-
kayabaNerve
Unless you mean my Reddit-given ability to downvote people trolling and spreading misinformation.
-
kayabaNerve
Atomic swaps are actually agnostic btw
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No I do not mind that if it's done against the right people.
-
kayabaNerve
They don't care if they're done on a testnet or a mainnet
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But your friends aren't the right people, they lied a lot.
-
kayabaNerve
The network byte is the same either way
-
kayabaNerve
*The network byte is the only thing different
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yes but people do cause we can't connect it to liquidity if it's not in main'net
-
kayabaNerve
Sorry, it's very late and I'm a bit tired
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It can be turned into an exchanger.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I don't mind I thought you were the mod who censored me and pissed me off.
-
kayabaNerve
An atomic swap is defined as a technologicial, guaranteed exchange of custody.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's cool.
-
kayabaNerve
I executed a guaranteed exchange of custody (or as noted previously, a return of funds upon counterparty failure).
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So let me get this straight you're not part of the bounty site.
-
kayabaNerve
Therefore, regardless of your caring of how much value was exchanged (none), the protocol was completed aand that would make me first.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You sure about that?
-
kayabaNerve
I have the ability to comment there
-
kayabaNerve
I signed up for an account
-
kayabaNerve
I don't have any privileges though
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Again, are you with their circle jerk yes or no.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Answer me this.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Or you just stumbled upon this.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I got a good reason for asking you.
-
kayabaNerve
Even if you solve the XMR TX problem though, and manage to ensure Bob provides a valid TX to Alice, you didn't solve the race condition
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can solve these conditions.
-
kayabaNerve
Whenever that XMR unlocks, Bob can claim it no matter what Alice does. It just becomes a race for propagation
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Everything you name.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But I won't hand them to you if you are one of them.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Anyways just list them.
-
kayabaNerve
Would be great to see. I don't believe so. I ask noot's submission be visited now that yours has been self-declared invalid at this time.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Self-declared invalid cause you don't like the GUI?
-
kayabaNerve
You declared it invalid lol
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> When?
-
kayabaNerve
You admitted you submitted it hours before finishing in an attempt to snipe it
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Still, your claim that my application isn't trustless bothers me. The people that will exchange crypto in XCAS, whether with my design or noot's, won't they have to meet online somewhere and negotiate terms like rate and timeframe? Doesn't that mean both applications are trust-ful? That objection of yours sounds simply unreasonable.
-
kayabaNerve
I am a Monero community member. I love decentralized exchange technology, specifically atomic swaps, and have tried to keep up to date with the tech which I'm intimately familiar with. I came here, to talk to you, because you started a ton of drama based on attacking XMR peeps for not paying out over an invalid submission (and some of their misc comments which I generally don't care to comment on, and even acknowledged one as out of
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kayabaNerve
scope)
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kayabaNerve
I'm not a mod on any Monero groups though. I'm not here to blindly follow other people either
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kayabaNerve
There's no trust in negotiating terms. At all.
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kayabaNerve
It's literally just a self declaration until mutual agreement.
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kayabaNerve
When the time comes to execute, the protocol guarantees both parties remained honest.
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kayabaNerve
That's why it's trustless.
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kayabaNerve
While yes, you may not obtain the other party's funds, you're guaranteed to receive one set of funds.
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kayabaNerve
Which is why it's considered an atomic swap. Either it's an effective NOP (technically a waste of time and fees, yet you keep your principal) OR it's a guaranteed exchange.
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kayabaNerve
The fact you didn't even read the BTC wiki for the basic definition and wrote something not meaningfully better than blindly sending ETH and politely asking for XMR is on you, whbich is why I believe noot's submission is next in line and any further work on your end be considered a new submission, especially after you admitted to premature submission in an attempt to snipe someone else when the bounty was meant to reward whoever was
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kayabaNerve
legitimately first
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So you are saying for example.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> A person claims he wants 2 ethereum for 1 monero (example)
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kayabaNerve
But I also have 0 confidence you can actually 'fix' this protocol. It'd require a direct change to the XMR timelock system and a ZK proof I don't even care to dream of.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You want people being unable to send less/ more / or none
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But still send them to each other?
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> This is what you mean? Like a safety escrow system?
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kayabaNerve
dude
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kayabaNerve
please just read the wiki
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kayabaNerve
-
kayabaNerve
It covers the basic principles of atomic swaps, which provide a decentralized and trustless escrow without a third party
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kayabaNerve
Which is why they're called atomic swaps
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I read the wiki what I don't understand is what you recommend as a solution for the rates.
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kayabaNerve
It is the responsibility of each party to verify the counterparty's TX in its entirety
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kayabaNerve
So if I lock X, and you lock Y, I am able to verify your amount. If you send less, I cancel. If I send less, you cancel. We each guarantee our own safety.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> This is literally how it is right now, what's your problem?
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Is this miscommunication or an actual backend issue?
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kayabaNerve
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That code literally operates the same as mine with a different steps in the UI.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Is this your problem?
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kayabaNerve
Alice has no way of ensuring Bob actually submitted a hash of a TX which sends the amount to Alice
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What's allowed in the UI?
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kayabaNerve
Alice only has a way of ensuring Bob has the funds in the first place, yet they're in his wallet, and he offers no proof he will send to her
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kayabaNerve
He just tells Alice to lock to an arbitrary hash which he is able to then claim, regardless of if the data hashed is what Alice needs to not lose funds
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kayabaNerve
And even if it is a valid TX to Alice for the proper amount, and even if you can manage to have Alice verify that before putting the ETH at risk while still not putting the XMR at risk, there's a race condition when Bob claims the XMR.
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kayabaNerve
*Alice claims the XMR
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kayabaNerve
Bob has the private key for the input in question and can create an alternate TX sending the funds to himself.
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kayabaNerve
Monero won't recognize either TX until the locktime expires. Whenever it does, Alice and Bob would (theoretically ideally), submit at the same time, causing a race with 50% odds to either side.
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kayabaNerve
Alice only having a0% odds of not losing their principal is not an atomic protocol.
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kayabaNerve
So you have two critical flaws in your backend. One requires some ZK proof that Bob's specified hash actually maps to a properly signed Monero TX, which again, I don't care to dream of. The other is the ability for Bob to craft a competing TX and the ensuing race condition when the XMR timelock expires.
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kayabaNerve
Your protocol design has Alice claim XMR < timelock, and has Bob claim > timelock on failure. What you don't realize is, or at least what your protocol doesn't take into account is, the fact Alice can't spend the XMR < timelock
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kayabaNerve
Both parties must do it < timelock, causing the race condition
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I understand what you mean now but still they never asked me to solve this issue.
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kayabaNerve
They did
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But you got a point.
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kayabaNerve
They said implement atomic swaps
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No they didn't.
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kayabaNerve
Your protocol isn't atomic
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But it is an atomic swap, the technology is the same.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> How is it not atomic.
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kayabaNerve
Atomic swaps offer a guarantee you won't lose your principal
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Pfffff.
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kayabaNerve
You copied some atomic swap technology but you didn't copy its guarantees
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Without using advanced cryptography, this is probably the only way to do atomic swaps. I agree that it doesn't rely on cryptography as much as other implementations, but that doesn't mean it is any less trustless and decentralized.
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kayabaNerve
That's the thing
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kayabaNerve
This isn't atomioc
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kayabaNerve
So this isn't a way to do atomic swaps
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kayabaNerve
They do require advanced cryptography
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kayabaNerve
There's 3 WPs about it
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kayabaNerve
And 3 working implementations
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kayabaNerve
It is definitely less trustless
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kayabaNerve
Alice never has a guarantee they'll receive the needed XMR TX. Alice never has a guarantee Bob won't publish a competing TX, as they can only publish at the same time which means equal opportunity, meaning a 50% chance of Bob getting both sets of funds
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kayabaNerve
If you did manage to solve those two problems, the first with advanced cryptography, the second with a XMR HF to change timelock behavior for atomic swaps, then sure, this would be trustless and therefore an atomic swap
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can make it trustless with another way.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Hold up right here you piqued my interest.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Wait.
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kayabaNerve
I have no idea how you'd put that cryptography together. It sounds like hell. It's why the atomic swap author went with the standing WP on DLEq proofs and the other standing WP on adaptor signatures
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I been working on the bitcoin protocol applied on tor's network with my buddy.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can do it.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If only you asked me to nicely instead of coming at my throat like this.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> We could avoid all this shitshow.
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kayabaNerve
If you legitimately want to solve this, great. I'll give feedback as I can. I was being harsh for all the drama and attacks you put out there. I'm still pissed at you but I would be very interested if you had a solution
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kayabaNerve
So while I have 0 faith, again, still willing to discuss this as I have
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kayabaNerve
And if noot's submission is invalid according to the arbitrators, and you submit an updated submission which works, with tests for all failure cases and is atomic, I'd back you on it. The bounty isn't for noot or for a derivation of his software
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's not my fault you guys censored me then you stole my idea in the projects presentation, then on top of that you started adding more requirements and degrading my work cause it's not textbook (like you do right here) the only issue I agree on is that I didn't include the monero rpc automation funny fact is that I literally got a working miner for this which makes this even dumber. Now about the "trustless" part.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Hold right there.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Noot stole my presentation.
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kayabaNerve
Though I do maintain Arbitrum is a mainnet not loooking at its own token or leaving its status as an ETH orbiter (L2 for ETH1, shard for ETH2 IIRC). If that is enough of an issue to invalidate noot's submission, I'd be happy to fund them and ask if they can produce mainnet TXs with their software (solely changing network bytes as needed), their submission be accepted, regardless of if any others are queued
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kayabaNerve
But it's not up to me
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kayabaNerve
I didn't write the bounty. I'm not in control of it. I'm literally just voicing my opinion
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I don't know what you mean by "publish at the same time". First Bob publishes his self-tx, locking the funds in place and delivers the hashed-metadata to Alice. The key images of the inputs used are recorded so Bob cannot use them in another transaction - therefore he cannot double-spend or cheat Alice by using the funds in another transaction.
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kayabaNerve
K, you admitted you submitted incomplete work in an attempt to ensure you got the bounty
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kayabaNerve
noot's had publicly available incomplete work for months and has watched this bounty for weeks
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kayabaNerve
You absolutely cannot claim noot is a thief here
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kayabaNerve
K
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kayabaNerve
So lets say Alice does know the key images
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I never admitted such thing I was fully convinced this is what you want and the bounty was secondary in terms of value, I am mad with how you favor people over how much you like them instead of focusing on the code.
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kayabaNerve
You had invalid code for multiple reasons. AFAIK, noot's is valid.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Noot is a thief, she saw my submission and waited for 5 hours before publish hers.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And followed the same proof of work I described, something she never mentioned ANYWHERE before.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's thieving.
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kayabaNerve
I haven't personally reviewed it. They use a valid protocol though and I know someone who worked on it who I trust.
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kayabaNerve
Not if their submission is complete. That's just another submission.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's a personal claim which confirms you're literally a circle jerk.
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kayabaNerve
XMR nodes will only know the key images once the TX is broadcast to the network, right?
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kayabaNerve
Even if you tell Alice the key images in advance, the network doesn't care.
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kayabaNerve
They only care when a valid XMR TX is published.
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kayabaNerve
Lets say, yes, Bob reveals a valid XMR TX to Alice over the ETH SC.
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kayabaNerve
And the XMR locktime expires 10 minutes later.
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kayabaNerve
When those 10 minutes expire, that's when the key image is usable.
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kayabaNerve
Bob has the private key. He can sign an infinite amount of transactions.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's just the existing code, it's not an absolute fact.
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kayabaNerve
And whichever hits the blockchain first is will be accepted as fact
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kayabaNerve
So Bob just needs to send his TX to the top miners before Alice's propagates
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kayabaNerve
That's why it's a race condition, one a malicious party can get great odds on
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kayabaNerve
Changing the XMR protocol for alternate behavior will delay your submission by at least 4 months
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kayabaNerve
I wouldn't dismiss the nature of XMR timelocks saying they can be changed if you want to claim this bounty
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kayabaNerve
And the agenda for the next HF should be pretty set, meaning you'd probably need to wait 16 months
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kayabaNerve
Plenty of time for me to update my own work with a new folder.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> "It either uses advanced cryptography, or it doesn't count".
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kayabaNerve
No
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> This is basically you.
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kayabaNerve
It's either atomic, which requires being trustless, or it doesn't count
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kayabaNerve
It's not my fault if the only trustless ways to ensure you get your principal, either back or in the desired form, require advanced cryptography
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So hold up.
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kayabaNerve
That's life. It's hard. You can either beat it or accept it beat you.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If I make this trustless you will shut up?
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Idc about the bounty I care about you guys shutting up at this point btw, is the reason I even got involved i dislike your authoritarianism.
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kayabaNerve
That would make it atomic. I've already said if you do implement atomic swaps, I don't care how as long as they're atomic and you test for the various failures. Not only to ensure your protocol design handles them, but also that your code does.
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kayabaNerve
Fun. I got called authoritarian for voicing my opinion in a community about a topic I have experience with when I've literally used 0 powers against you except a voice which every human here has.
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kayabaNerve
Which means if you allow submitting random hashes to Alice to lock their funds to, on the premise it's for a valid XMR TX to Alice, you need to actually write a malicious counterparty which does send H(""), reveals "", claiming the ETH, and either have Alice get their ETH back or claim the XMR
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kayabaNerve
Despite the ETH having moved and not having a XMR TX or any keys
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kayabaNerve
gl hf
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Gathering your butt buddies and cherry picking my code based on semantics is what authoritarians do with propaganda.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Plus censoring and lying.
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kayabaNerve
Someone already solved this though if you just want to use their work
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kayabaNerve
I recommend it
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kayabaNerve
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Again noot stole my presentation, observed me completing it first, you still supported her, and it's not on main net.
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kayabaNerve
Your code literally doesn't run. It's absolutely not atomic.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Nah sorry I am not like your friends stealing others work to claim glory.
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kayabaNerve
So yes, I will speak out against it with the truth.
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kayabaNerve
noot used none of your work and wrote their own post, including TX hashes, which you included none of.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You speak against it with lies not truth. The atomic part is just the steps on the UI, it has nothing to do with the backend.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And again, IT RUNS IF YOU connect it with RPC MONERO.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What's so hard to understand?
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kayabaNerve
If I can write a UI to be malicious, and you lose funds because your backend doesn't check it, that's the backend's fault
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kayabaNerve
Not mine
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kayabaNerve
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kayabaNerve
This file doesn't exist on your Git at all
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kayabaNerve
You have 0 files under monero/ except illegally hosted EXEs
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kayabaNerve
Your comment that I just have to connect it to the RPC is telling me I just have to write the entire XMR side of the integration
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kayabaNerve
That's your job.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No it's not.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's the false usage of UI's fault.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Which you're asking me to fix here.
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kayabaNerve
You literally have 0 code talking to the Monero RPC on your GH
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Ilegally hosted exes what the fuck are you on about.
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kayabaNerve
No matter what buttons I click on your UI, that won't fix itself
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Dude, you can automate this with any type of software out there.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Uh hold up.
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kayabaNerve
Monero uses the BSD-3 clause license which requires all copies of the source code and all generated binaries to be hosted with the appropriate copyright statement
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kayabaNerve
You did not provide a copy of the relevant LICENSE file
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bridgerton[m]
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Is that easy.
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kayabaNerve
Dude. Check your swap repo.
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kayabaNerve
It never connects to the Monero RPC.
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kayabaNerve
None of the JSX files even try to.
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kayabaNerve
You uploaded stuff you didn't mean to.
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kayabaNerve
One of your files imports Swapper.jsx which doesn't exist anywhere in your repository
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kayabaNerve
You're missing several files.
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kayabaNerve
Check your GH. Realize you only uploaded some of what you meant to. Fix it before you tell me it's one click.
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kayabaNerve
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kayabaNerve
See? This has the LICENSE file
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kayabaNerve
Your protocol has two critical exploits. Alice never verifies the XMR TX, and they would have to before they lock ETH to its hash, but if they receive the XMR TX before the lock they can publish it while never locking ETH.
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kayabaNerve
Or you need "advanced cryptography" to set up an infinitely cursed ZK proof offering such a guarantee.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You actually use vote manipulation in reddit meanwhile claiming a test.net code is main.net code I just noticed holy shit.
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kayabaNerve
Then your usage of XMR timelock's, and lack of a 2-2 multisig causes a race condition.
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kayabaNerve
It's not vote manipulation to down vote.
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kayabaNerve
That's just voting.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The alice problem is UI.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Is that so hard to understand?
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kayabaNerve
K. What is the UI supposed to do if it never has the information to show?
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's vote manipulation when accounts that haven't been active for 2 years go ahead and say for noot's development "sweet work queen haha"
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Like your latest post.
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UXP[m]
> <@pydev56:matrix.org> What is the best exchange to buy monero?
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UXP[m]
> I am thinking of using Bisq.
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UXP[m]
Hi, did you use Bisq? How was your experience?
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kayabaNerve
Manipulation would be asking people to vote or using alts.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Bisq sucks.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Anyways.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It is alts dude.
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kayabaNerve
I haven't used any alts or asked people.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You are using upvote services the accounts never been in the monero community and they commend you for your test.net efforts.
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kayabaNerve
K. I haven't used any. Maybe someone else has. I wouldn't know. Maybe you're just mad people who read the comments realize your work is invalid.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> All your comments received 20 upvotes in 30 minutes.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Thing statistically impossible cause the main post has 80 in 6 hours.
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kayabaNerve
Lol. I've never used any upvote services.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Which means you definitely used upvote manipulation.
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kayabaNerve
Yeah. I posted it in places
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Well someone used it for you then.
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kayabaNerve
I posted it here on IRC, because it was a succinct response to your bs
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I assume the owners of noot's development.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It doesn't make sense.
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kayabaNerve
I posted it in two Monero channels as we discussed your work in two channels
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Unless 22 people kept refreshing the page continously.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Anyways...
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kayabaNerve
I also posted it on the bounty thread
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I agree with you that I should had included the monero rpc connection.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And that the UI must be so people can't scam each other.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Everything else is sheer lies.
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kayabaNerve
There's probably just a mix of people reading the bounty, reading IRC, reading Matrix, reading Discord, and reading Reddit. As they read my posts and upvote it, they downvote yours.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yeah yeah claims, the facts present that you guys did upvote manipulation.
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kayabaNerve
The race condition isn't a lie.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Period.
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kayabaNerve
Lol. You're just jealous and resorting to ad hominem
-
kayabaNerve
Cope
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You probably are part of their team who want to feel like the gods of monero.
-
kayabaNerve
Anyways. You still have a race condition
-
kayabaNerve
I actually don't have a single PR or commit to XMR.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am like 99% certain you're salty my protocol might be better than yours.
-
kayabaNerve
Oh. It would be if it worked
-
kayabaNerve
It's much better
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And you cherrypick human error while giving it the name "ur code's fault".
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Bs.
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kayabaNerve
Not that I ever wrote a protocol. I just found h4sh3d's work and beat him to impl'ing it :p
-
kayabaNerve
No, no, I identified it was a mistake
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I bet you right now 100 usd in XMR, if i got to a channel their entire team of propagandizers is gathered you are there.
-
kayabaNerve
But I also pointed out it stopped verifying your work
-
kayabaNerve
... like the publicly known #monero-community channel we're in?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yeah like you guys don't do dm's.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You think everyone is a fool don't ya.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Monero was made for cynical skeptical people dude.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Why do you think so many people call you out in all this?
-
kayabaNerve
I have one friend from Monero I DM with occassionally. We don't discuss Monero often though tbh
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Your arguments appeal to my inability to provide something that minimizes human error.
-
kayabaNerve
I have my own work and he has his.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> My arguments appeal to your inability to be honest.
-
kayabaNerve
Anyways. Fix the fact Alice has no guarantee they're sent a hash of a valid XMR TX. Fix the race condition with claiming XMR. Don't introduce other security issues.
-
kayabaNerve
I've been perfectly honest with you.
-
kayabaNerve
If you do those things, you'll have implemented an atomic swap protocol potentially superior to the only one currently around (ignoring variations of it). I'd love to see it. I have 0 faith
-
kayabaNerve
And I'd be happy to support your work accordingly. Until then, I personlly think noot's code should be reviewed. If they want to reach out to me for ETH for an ETH mainnet swap, I'd be happy to fund it. That said, I believe they have stepped back thanks to your toxicity so not only have you done nothing for XMR yet, you've actively driven those who are. Real shame.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> There is 1 critical problem with this design as it stands. The ETH-holder needs a way to inspect the XMR-holder's lock on his monero. They must verify the locked funds belong to him and read how much time they are locked for.
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kayabaNerve
I'm heading off. It's almost 5am. Feel free to DM any questions about Bob's XMR TX to Alice or the XMR race condition. I'm also on Element and Discord.
-
kayabaNerve
No, no, that's the easy part.
-
kayabaNerve
The XMR holder just needs to create a new view key for that specific TX and mutually share the view key.
-
kayabaNerve
Then Alice can independently find, and verify, the TX.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That can also be forged.
-
kayabaNerve
The problem is that TX is still Bob's. Bob can do whatever he wants with it, including 100 potential spenders.
-
kayabaNerve
Nope
-
kayabaNerve
If it's on the XMR blockchain, it's a valid TX. The reported amount can be forged, sure, but rebuilding the commitment verifies it's correct.
-
kayabaNerve
You do your job, you won't have a problem.
-
kayabaNerve
You just have to do your job.
-
kayabaNerve
Or you can trust the XMR Wallet RPC to verify the commitment after importing the view key. You do have it available.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I know what I got to do, the issue is how even what you recommend doesn't make it completely trustless.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Which means that there's no actual available source for trustless XMR - swaps as it is.
-
kayabaNerve
So Bob currently offers no guarantee the hash he sends to Alice is for a signed XMR TX to Alice for the proper amount. I won't repeat myself again on why you can't send it in advance for verification
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Rebuilding commitment isn't enough.
-
kayabaNerve
No, no. I've pointed out the issues with your protocol. I never recommended using it
-
kayabaNerve
What I recommended is using the atomic swap protocol already defined
-
kayabaNerve
But if you do want to use your protocol, you need to fix these two issues without introducing further security issues
-
kayabaNerve
And I don't believe the second one is fixable without a HF
-
kayabaNerve
Or, of course, moving to a 2-2 multisig on the XMR side so both sides must agree on where the funds go
-
kayabaNerve
But Bob can still be a dick and screw over Alice unless the 2-2 multisig ends up entirely in Alice's possession
-
kayabaNerve
Which is why you need adaptor signatures
-
kayabaNerve
Yet ETH uses a different curve :O
-
kayabaNerve
If only someone had a proof to say two public keys had the same private key across curves...
-
kayabaNerve
Again, if you can do automatic swaps without that crypto, good for you, I'd love to see it. This ain't it though, chief. I also still don't have faith :p
-
kayabaNerve
But yeah, actually heading off now. Best of luck, don't be toxic, feel free to DM me on IRC/Matrix/Discord if you want advice
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I don't get what makes you think Bob can construct the transaction to claim the XMR after he claims the ETH. That's what the timelock is for. And the timelock is in place due to the self-tx. If via view key, Alice can verify that, then she just needs to claim the monero before the timelock expires for Bob. I don't think I'm wrong in saying that.
-
kayabaNerve
archeactiX: She can't claim it before the timelock expires.
-
kayabaNerve
The timelock applies to anyone who tries to spend it. Not just Bob.
-
kayabaNerve
It would've required specifying two keys to do it your way. One which can spend before the timelock, one after.
-
kayabaNerve
That said, the output Bob sends is solely to his own key, with the idea he'll further build on it with a TX to Alice or a refund to himself.
-
kayabaNerve
So how would the timelock, which only applies to the input, know which to approve and which not to?
-
kayabaNerve
When it's the next TXs outputs that are at stake, and Monero doesn't support a two-key timelock system?
-
kayabaNerve
That's why I said it'd require a HF.
-
kayabaNerve
And yes, I am trying to head off, turns out I just had to walk my dog and suck at doing so :p
-
kayabaNerve
Again, best of luck
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I don't think there is a race condition problem (my design doesn't produce one). That leaves a guarantee for the ETH-holder that the hash the XMR-holder sent her is legitimate. My idea about that, as I mentioned, was to establish a (P2P) connection between the 2 users' programs and then automatically send the correct hash to her without the XMR-holder's acknowledgement - therefore preventing him from deceiving the
-
bridgerton[m]
ETH-holder.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> If you had actually done *any* transaction, you would've seen the XMR timelock doesn't let Alice claim before it expires, giving Bob the opportunity to submit his refund and enter a race condition.
-
bridgerton[m]
Bob can easily fork his client to not send a correct hash. Saying your OSS system is secure because no one will edit a single line of code is an absolute joke and proof this isn't trustless and therefore not atomic. Alice MUST confirm the hash herself somehow, instead of trusting Bob to know how to edit a text file.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I did a transaction using common sense and nothing like that showed up, I didn't account the fact that someone could actually be clever and use this to scam.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You are right it's not trustless.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> So either your code is broken because it's submitting Alice after the time lock, not before, or you haven't actually don't any TX.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause it's easily exploitable.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> Exactly
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No the code is fine the GUI is the issue.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's not limited properly for race conditions.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I didn't account the scamming part.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I admit that.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> The hash isn't verified. The race condition exists due to the protocol rules about XMR time locks.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> That's why I've been so frustrated. The whole idea about atomic swaps is they're trustless. You specify, or agree to, a price and it guarantees your principal back or the other funds in return.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It can be solved easily.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You guys should had told me instead of going lynching mode, I missed it as a detail.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It wasn't done on purpose.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> I've been trying to tell you from the start
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Like who the fuck would even try to scam in the monero space it's dumb.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> I explained this in my very first Reddit comment
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No you explained it now your first reddit comment was a direct attack.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> Don't know, sounds pretty easy, and you only need private internet money to do it?
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> Lol. I literally explained both of these vulnerabilities
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> And I have been trying to since
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Okay name them both.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I will show you what I mean.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> Like sure,I haven't been friendly, but I've done my best to cut through the bs and I don't care to be friendly right now
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> I hope so but don't believe so. One requires an incredibly screwed up ZK proof OR trusting no one to ever edit two lines in a text file.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> One requires a HF or a 2-2
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> The idea with the 2-2 being adaptor signatures so one party ends up with 2 and one party solely keeps one share
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> But then you're implementing the existing, verified protocol, or forking an instance of it
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> Again, if you have a solution, it'll probably be better than the current protocol and I'd love to hear it. For now, I'd like to stop this BS on Reddit where you're claiming you deserve the bounty for your standing submission/did the first atomic swaps when you've acknowledged they have critical vulns on the protocol level, therefore aren't atomic, yet for some reason a bunch of people are mad at the arbitrators and the
-
bridgerton[m]
frequent contributors when the arbs haven't even rejected your submission. All that's happened is community discussion. The exact same discussion that led to the acknowledgement, and hopeful progress on, these issues.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> If you do want to implement the existing protocol, or something like it, I have a DLEq library in rust you may be able to bind to. Itd handle most of the crypto.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> After I realized what you mean cause you dropped the manipulation tactics I concluded that nobody deserves the bounty.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But still that doesn't forgive how your friends treated this and the censorship or ill willed trolling.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Neither it does how your dev stole my presentation strategy.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If one of you had messaged me nicely when I firstly asked instead of deleting my comments and calling me a karen, this could be avoided, or even pass you the code just by admitting I helped.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You started this.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Now knowing all this I don't think I deserve the bounty either when it has such a huge vulnerability scammers can use.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But neither your dev does.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Noot stole my presentation and made a test net.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> It's not theft to make their own submission with even more information when they have a work they considered completed
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's gaslighting right there and dishonest.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> It'd be gas lighting to say you stole their submission. I'm not saying that
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The honest would had been "hey archeactive I finished it" on top of that your friends stalled the recognition of the code till she could complete it.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Lol.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You stole MY submission.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You literally wanted people to fork your own project so you could keep the whole glory.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> This is why all this happened.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> I did say you have little ground to stand on though when you admitted you on purposely submitted incomplete work early to cut out noot who may finish their code before you
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> Which they supposedly have
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Your friends came at me which radicalized me cause I told them "what if I find a better solution with my own code".
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> I never suggested you use my own swap project
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And one of them called me a troll karen and the other deleted my comments.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's what happened.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Your friends did that.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> I did suggest you use a cryptographic lib I wrote
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And you ask me to stand by.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> That's a distinct thing
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's a distinct thing but you defend their inexcusable actions and lies.
-
bridgerton[m]
<Kayaba> If you want to blame everything on me when I'm the one still trying to help, and I came hours after the fact, pointed out the issues, and tried talking it through. That's on you. I'm truly done spamming this chat with this though. Grow up man
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I don't blame you I call you out for what you attempt to hide, giving condescending advice to degrade my efforts and ignoring that the ones you bandwagon are in the wrong deletes any type of positive self proclaimed intention you may have.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And don't tell me to grow up when you do projects on test.net while your own criteria is on main net and you claim you "achieved the first swap".
-
dEBRUYNE
r/monero mods claim that never happened officially <= Can you elaborate?
-
spirobel[m]
dEBRUYNE I hope archeactiX is banned and his drama posts on reddit get deleted. The eth-xmr swaps are simply too important for the monero ecosystem for someone to spread so much toxicity here. I hope moot comes back and continues to work on this. It would be a shame if she got demotivated by this. We should make sure that it is clear that her contributions are valued by community.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yes ban archeactive, silence his voice, put him in his place show authoritarianism, censor harder, put more people off monero.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> A perfect solution huh? This is what lead us to this point btw, this mindset.
-
spirobel[m]
s/moot/noot/
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And majority of people agreed with me according to the post and the reaction to the bounty.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Sorry but your boss attitude is in the minority here.
-
plowsof[m]
kayabaNerve: thank you btw !
-
dEBRUYNE
'This is the original comment that was deleted by monero bounties'
-
dEBRUYNE
Could have been that the comment was deleted by the author instead of the moderators?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No, they deleted my comments too and the comments of crypto grumpy and another person as well.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> They deleted 3 comments in total.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Noot was actually receiving of it and said "sure good luck" but then they tried to censor everything.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Deleting her own comment as well or maybe she did it- that I don't know.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But I got proof they deleted three peoples comments.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Which lead up to this.
-
bridgerton[m]
s/<archeactiX> Noot was actually receiving of it and said "sure good luck" but then they tried to censor everything./<archeactiX> Noot was actually receiving of the idea and said "sure good luck" but then they tried to censor everything./
-
dEBRUYNE
OK, I suppose I can inquire regarding this later with the moderators of the bounty site
-
plowsof[m]
There was a comment deleted from the bounties site after atleast 1 complaint was made. But it was unrelated to whats happening now , i dont have the exact comment but it was along the lines of bullying the dev.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Lol, that's a lie.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am going to pull all the screenshots, cause apparently you're not arguing using facts.
-
dEBRUYNE
In any case, the bounty is supposed to be for an atomic XMR<->ETH swap, and atomic swaps are inherently trustless
-
sech1
I don't have time to read walls of text here and reddit, one question: does the code actually work and implement atomic swaps?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yes but it can be used to scam.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause it doesn't stop one of the two parties from being dishonest.
-
kayabaNerve
sech1: No for two different critical security exploits in the design
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The process is atomic swap but it can be manipulated.
-
sech1
so not an atomic swap
-
kayabaNerve
... so no but this dude is very persistent
-
sech1
case closed
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Btw.
-
kayabaNerve
And the code is missing files, not tested, etc.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I found the solution to what you ask.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The code isn't MISSING FILES IT JUST NEEDS MONERO RPC CONNECTION.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Like EVERY WALLET OUT THERE.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I told you this so many times.
-
sech1
"atomic" swap that requires trust is no better that using an exchange
-
kayabaNerve
sech1: An exchange can be subpoenaed :p
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Again I found the solution for that.
-
kayabaNerve
Not Kayaba over Tor? Who knows?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You said a timer right.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The race condition.
-
kayabaNerve
The race condition isn't solvable without a XMR HF or a 2-2 multisig.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I believe that I found the solution to that proper synchronization.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am discussing it right now with the other guy.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No it is.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You're wrong.
-
spirobel[m]
kayabaNerve: look at the commit history as well. seems like he is just copying stuff into the github web interface. what a clown.
-
kayabaNerve
I'll pay money if there is a working solution.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Lol what?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Copying what? @spirobel
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Wtf?
-
kayabaNerve
spirobel[m]: I did that when I started development. It just makes him new to things if true. I thought I saw a single commit message for all of it though
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Okay hear me out so.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The biggest problem here is the monero locking up yeah?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And how the tx can end up getting manipulated by the one who makes the offer.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So we require a timer that stops that which you refer to in atomic swaps as race condition.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> My question is.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What if we add another one?
-
kayabaNerve
The problem is you can't cause a bidrectional path.
-
kayabaNerve
BTC has this exact issue.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No not path.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Recognizer.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> There's no need for path.
-
kayabaNerve
Its solution is to use an OP_IF to decide which key/side of the time lock to use.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yes but what if it is possible to make that decision - impossible to be deceitful.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Impossible to be scammy.
-
kayabaNerve
XMR doesn't have OP_IF available because it doesn't have Script enabled (I've heard it's technically in the codebase but I've also never seen it)
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I thought of something.
-
spirobel[m]
kayabaNerve: so we have a choice now: either we continue to entertain this clown and his toxic behaviour or we further alienate someone who has actual skills. This commit history looks a lot more trustworthy than the garbage archeactiX produced:
github.com/noot/atomic-swap/commits/master
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> There's no need for OP if.
-
kayabaNerve
So if you set a timelock, it's applied to everyone. Because of that, adding more does nothing.
-
kayabaNerve
spirobel[m]: I'm trying to get in contact with noot
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No it doesn't have to apply to everyone, you don't get it.
-
kayabaNerve
Seriously. Know where I can find them?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The time lock doesn't affect the main code.
-
kayabaNerve
They're not on IRC or Matrix AFAICT
-
kayabaNerve
How would it not apply to everyone? XMR timelocks prevent spending on the protocol level based on it
-
spirobel[m]
kayabaNerve: I know you mean well. but please stop engaging with this guy. It is a waste of time. He just needs to be banned for his shitty behavior.
-
mj-xmr[m]
My monthly report:
-
mj-xmr[m]
-
mj-xmr[m]
Cheers!
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause it's not the crypto timelock that matters, is the decision making of the users.
-
kayabaNerve
Absolutely fair. I walked away earlier and popped back in when sech asked. I suck at walking away :(
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Your favorited dev didn't even make anything in main net.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's unusuable.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Either way because of your bitching I actually found the solution so the community will get an actual atomic swap now.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> π
-
kayabaNerve
spirobel[m]: I do still want to verify noot's work. I trust it simply because leder had a hand in it, but obviously that isn't proper review :p
-
Rucknium[m]
kayabaNerve: I believe noot's Reddit username is elizabethereum. You could try there.
-
spirobel[m]
kayabaNerve: she is also on twitter.
-
kayabaNerve
Thanks
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: If you have the solutions as you say, please stop spamming every platform with toxicity, code it up, publish it, and prove it on main net.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I didn't spam anything I made one post in reddit, and I responded twice in the site, I am here to discuss the solution politely.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You guys are the toxic ones.
-
sethsimmons
Politely is an interesting way to put it lol
-
spirobel[m]
<kayabaNerve> "spirobel: I did that when I..." <- red flag. I certainly wouldn't execute any of the binaries he has included. I wouldn't even download them. super sketchy. I think his behavior is way over the line and shouldn't be tolerated. He is either an amateur for not using git while working or he is copying code from who know where. And he has the audacity to slander the actual professionals in the monero reddit. He should be
-
spirobel[m]
banned and his posts removed as soon as possible
-
spirobel[m]
s/know/knows/
-
sethsimmons
Your approach from square one has been intentionally vague, toxic, and aggressive, even down to your intentional avoiding of your username here (you uses "bullshit sighted" on Bounties).
-
kayabaNerve
Oh. I definitely agree at this point. There's been 0 rational attempt to move forward in a cooperative manner and I was blamed for his radicalization to being an asshole lol. Pretty sure he's just an ass
-
sethsimmons
kayabaNerve: Very much so.
-
sethsimmons
He's welcome to proof his professed talent with commits and main net proofs, until then there's no reason to out up with toxic spam.
-
sethsimmons
s/uses/used/
-
sethsimmons
* Very much so.
-
sethsimmons
He's welcome to prove his professed talent with commits and main net proofs, until then there's no reason to out up with toxic spam.
-
kayabaNerve
I'd be fine with testnet proofs. That's the reason they exist lol
-
sethsimmons
* Very much so.
-
sethsimmons
He's welcome to prove his professed talent with commits and main net proofs, until then there's no reason to put up with toxic spam.
-
sethsimmons
kayabaNerve: I say main net only because he's been
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Test net doesn't work as a proof, test net is the experimental phase of the experimental phase - of the other experimental phase
-
sethsimmons
* I say main net only because he's been complaining about test net being insufficient from day one.
-
kayabaNerve
Fair enough
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Straight to the propaganda we go huh? Your lies and bs didn't work on reddit so you try them here.
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: There it is π
-
kayabaNerve
Does anyone know who's actually in control of the Monero Bounties?
-
kayabaNerve
Because I do understand this was a non-CCS endeavor
-
kayabaNerve
Or is it a secret?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's true, if you code you will see that something can appear perfect on a test net and absolutely horrid in the main net.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I literally didn't even assume with my code that "bob" might try to scam alice.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It didn't cross my mind.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And look what happened.
-
sethsimmons
kayabaNerve: I'm one of the admins/moderators.
-
numro6[m]
is there a matrix space that gather all monero (and/or haveno) rooms?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Ahhh so you are the one who censored me and started all this.
-
kayabaNerve
Oh. Good to know. Thanks. I have some commentary I was going to check if it'd be appropriate to post my own commentary on Noot's work on the thread or if I should place it in some channel
-
dEBRUYNE
kayabaNerve: A separate thread on Reddit would probably be appreciated
-
kayabaNerve
That sentence is 2 in 1 0_o Regardless, I can post it there on someplace like #monero-dev and figured I'd check what the site's runners prefer
-
sethsimmons
numro6[m]: Yes, will send momentarily.
-
kayabaNerve
dEBRUYNE: It's for a technical discussion
-
dEBRUYNE
i.e. a thread with the reviews of both implementations
-
kayabaNerve
I'm not convinced noot meetss the criteria either at this time, despite being almost there, due to testing
-
sethsimmons
If it needs discussion, #monero-research-lounge:monero.social is probably the best place.
-
sethsimmons
Or potentially #monero-research-lab:matrix.org
-
kayabaNerve
Eh. That could be interesting? I've already posted replies on standing threads, I believe 1 or 2 to socks, and honestly not sure I care to go back
-
sethsimmons
*real-time discussion.
-
sethsimmons
-
kayabaNerve
I wouldn't mind trying to get the other eyes who would've verified this regardless of me to chime in
-
sethsimmons
Feel free to post on Reddit and then share in those rooms for live discussion.
-
utxobr[m]
> <@mj-xmr:matrix.org> My monthly report:
-
utxobr[m]
-
utxobr[m]
> Cheers!
-
utxobr[m]
as always, great stuff, mj! thank you!
-
mj-xmr[m]
utxobr[m]: Tryin'a do things differently :)
-
numro6[m]
sethsimmons: thanks! ποΈ it lacks some rooms we can find by browsing *:monero.social, is it expected? Like, those room are not official
-
kayabaNerve
sethsimmons: Missed that final comment, sorry. That may have been best.
-
kayabaNerve
Alrighty, I'll move over to Reddit and link it
-
sethsimmons
numro6[m]: Yes, isn't exhaustive, just the core/most common rooms. I have to manage it alone ATM so I don't add any room I come across -- it's just a landing zone for new people π
-
sethsimmons
kayabaNerve: Good for Reddit to see it as well, but either way is fine by me π
-
kayabaNerve
Well now I'm just getting mixed messages when I don't care if Reddit sees it after all of this :(
-
kayabaNerve
But fine, I'll trust you :p Be back in ~30 minutes, I guess
-
sethsimmons
Just saying no pressure from me for Reddit post.
-
sethsimmons
Matrix is better for technical discussions, usually.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Must be feeling sad how you can't censor me in reddit too, taking the entire thing to another social app. Phew.
-
sethsimmons
You're in Matrix, bud.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Not really, I am in discord.
-
sethsimmons
I removed an intentionally toxic attack and the surrounding comments, to the thanks of several 3rd parties and the person you were attacking without evidence and in an intentionally vague manner.
-
sethsimmons
The removal was warranted and appreciated by everyone else involved.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It didn't seem so appreciated to me in the public eyes, maybe you appreciated it.
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: It's called a bridge, you can use the surveillance platform if you want but thanks to the bridge you get access to Matrix.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Do you appreciate it still btw.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The censoring.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I mean look where it got us.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Do you find your decision to censor me instead of maturely discussing with me my errors wise?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I think we could had avoided this drama and shit show with a simple conversation, but nooooo you have to be in the badass authoritarian cyber master.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Reap what you sow.
-
sethsimmons
I don't have time to interact with every troll in every platform, sorry. Other's tried (and continued to try) having reasonable discussions with you and you have persisted in toxicity and vapid claims.
-
bridgerton[m]
s/in//
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Idk about the troll part, so far the majority agrees you are the trolls and you are in the wrong.
-
sethsimmons
The simple conversation was had, and you doubled down. I have no regrets on removing your intentionally toxic messages.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It doesn't matter if you do cause now people know what you are about and disagree with it.
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: Idk who you're talking about, here, no one has been upset by the cleanup.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What you regret or don't doesn't matter.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Here in your circle jerk you mean.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> In reddit many do.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Dozens upon dozens of people, cause what you do goes against the principle of liberty, which is what crypto was depended on.
-
sethsimmons
As I said before, you talk a big talk so feel free to actually code up a working implementation along with tests and proofs on main net and feel free to claim the bounty.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If you had told me "you don't have to be so rude, no this, yes that" we could avoid this, so the real motive wasn't my "toxicity".
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> The real motive was your agenda.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> >Claim the bounty
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So you admit that noot didn't complete the bounty. Alright, we're getting somewhere.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So if I complete the bounty you will apologize to me?
-
midipoet
> test net is the experimental phase of the experimental phase - of the other experimental phase << that is a bit like a line from a Dr Suess book
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause frankly speaking, this is what I am most concerned about.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Thanks, I like my speech skill too, it's 100 no codes.
-
nioc
finally there is scrollback that there is no need to read
-
shillo
nioc: this is one of the few times I read scrollback and thought it was worth reading :D
-
sethsimmons
<nioc> "finally there is scrollback that..." <- I take a break from Matrix/IRC for a weekend and this is what I get π’
-
shillo
the matrix-irc bridging of monero-pools is broken btw. One way only. IRC gets matrix users messages but matrix does not get irc messages. This happens with every matrix account except for one matrix user who can see irc
-
midipoet
and that user is Neo
-
sethsimmons
<shillo> "the matrix-irc bridging of..." <- Who on the Matrix side has admin there?
-
sethsimmons
I'm not even in that room.
-
shillo
no idea
-
shillo
I don't use matrix anymore and likey won't touch it again
-
shillo
likely*
-
numro6[m]
<sethsimmons> "Who on the Matrix side has admin..." <- actually, the strange thing is that there has to be an admin. If the room is hosted on libera.chat the matrix support is managed by the libera.chat team, no need to configure bridge per room
-
selsta
nioc: I tried to read scrollback but no idea what the topic even is
-
nioc
selsta: 1 of the 3 eth/xmr atomic swaps
-
nioc
no need to look
-
nioc
we need you :D
-
selsta
too many messages lol
-
sethsimmons
Not worth your time.
-
sethsimmons
Just a long-time anti-Monero troll leveraging ETH<>XMR atomic swap bounty to sow discord.
-
Save_G[m]
Who was in the right now?
-
sethsimmons
What?
-
Save_G[m]
Idk just read the post that there was some xmr bounty drama on they carried it over to the r/btc reddit lmao
-
Save_G[m]
s/on/and/
-
sethsimmons
Yup, they tried to spread it everywhere they could because of some past beef.
-
Save_G[m]
Massive psychological operation by the glowies to cause drama in the xmr community π§
-
nioc
yawn
-
shillo
can confirm. Am glowie
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Love your propaganda tactics btw guys, they are some of the best shit I ever seen.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So professional.
-
sethsimmons
Not sure what you're referring to.
-
sethsimmons
You chose to slander and attack everyone who dared converse with you, and then presented an incomplete and lacking "protocol" for "atomic swaps" that fails to even consider the adversarial environment ASs are designed to work in.
-
floam412[m]
Gotta say, there is quite a bit more of drama than usual in the Monero space lolβ¦
-
sethsimmons
No one is spreading propaganda.
-
sethsimmons
Social attacks require very little investment or effort, so they will be persistent.
-
sethsimmons
It's an easy way for those who want to destroy or discredit Monero and it's community to cause issues, but it's not the end of the world and is being dealt with π
-
sethsimmons
The core issue is that people often believe whatever they read first, and so an empty attack like this one manages to pull the wool over a few peoples eyes each time. But anyone who takes 15m and digs into it will easily see that it's just a bad attempt at causing havoc by someone with a history of this type of thing.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Your propaganda is one of the best I ever seen, political and clever answers manipulating people using sheer authority.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You should change careers tbh, monero scammer doesn't fit you become a politician.
-
sethsimmons
What propaganda?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I would vote if i saw you in TV.
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: LOL a scammer that earns 0XMR from his scams.
-
sethsimmons
I'm an awful scammer, if true.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Damn so you lie to people for free?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So kind.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Okay I am sold you can censor me all ya want daddy.
-
monero-guides[m]
bridgerton[m]: from everything i've read in the last 30 mins, i have come to the conclusion that you have no self respect.
-
sethsimmons
I have not lied to anyone in this entire situation.
-
sethsimmons
I have been exceedingly transparent and forthcoming.
-
crypto_grampy[m]
How much do you get paid for this?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> True you only altered events to fit your agenda.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Or like presented them in a manipulative fashion.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Fearsome skills tbh.
-
sethsimmons
You are attempting to use a freely-run platform for bounties to your own ill-gain against the Monero community due to some previous perceived slight you won't mentioned.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Idgaf about the bounty.
-
sethsimmons
s/mentioned/mention in detail/
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Trust.
-
Save_G[m]
Taking the bait
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: What events did I alter?
-
crypto_grampy[m]
i'm looking forward to using archeactix's funding platform
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Well besides everything so far, nothing really.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Idk how you managed to have 20 people lying at the same time to push your agenda in every platform yet you still failed btw.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I think you need more creativity.
-
jwinterm[m]
Wow, such community
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: You really have a way of using a lot of words to say nothing of value.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Like you could had said "lol you didn't even make the swaps trustless and you want the bounty?"
-
sethsimmons
It's impressive.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Appeal to my greed and shit.
-
monero-guides[m]
it's pretty embarrassing when mods go tit for tat at least.
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: Have you considered the fact that maybe you're the only one who is in the wrong here?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Look look man. I will be utterly honest.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am not a troll. Neither I am against monero.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I just dislike you and your bullshit.
-
sethsimmons
And that if literally every respectable member of the community opposes your view of events, maybe it's you and not us?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I use monero every day actually.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Like literally everyday.
-
monero-guides[m]
seth, quit it!
-
crypto_grampy[m]
monero is for everyone (tm)
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: Multiple others said that, I didn't have to.
-
sethsimmons
monero-guides[m]: I have no mod powers in Discord.
-
crypto_grampy[m]
archeactiX, have you heard of Wownero?
-
sethsimmons
crypto_grampy[m]: I'm glad it is, even for archeactiX π
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But you gues centralizing the bounties, the funding, and manipulating people reminds me of joe biden claiming he will get rid of the bigotry of trump then enforcing communism so.
-
monero-guides[m]
sethsimmons: you have control over the enter key!
-
bridgerton[m]
s/gues/guYS/
-
bridgerton[m]
s/gues/guys/
-
sethsimmons
Even he deserves access to privacy-preserving digital cash.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Sorry bro but i got to come at you.
-
sethsimmons
monero-guides[m]: True π
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I plan to complete the bounty properly, not to get the bounty just to embarrass you and hopefully make people understand you guys are shitty people.
-
Rucknium[m]
monero-guides: A complication is that Seth For Privacy is an admin for Monero Bounties, which is basically being criticized by archeactiX, so he feels he has to defend that platform.
-
sethsimmons
I've said more then enough, have a good one archeactiX.
-
crypto_grampy[m]
monero-guides[m]: ahem, we're draining the US federal defense budget every minute this guy is occupied
-
sethsimmons
Time to get back to useful efforts.
-
spirobel[m]
Rucknium[m]: he does not. We should just ban this guy.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What do you guys plan to do once I actually provide the best atomic swaps possible btw.
-
spirobel[m]
* does not need to. We
-
sech1
I checked the github repo in question. Embarassing to say the least
-
sech1
It is NOT atomic swaps
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You won't be able to play your manipulation cards then.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So what's the plan?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause I am planning to record an entire video of such sexy atomic swaps.
-
crypto_grampy[m]
you should create a bounty platform and get funding
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And just hand it to the community with no bounty or funding.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No money at all.
-
sethsimmons
sech1: He proved in discussion he neither knows what an atomic swap is, or how it's meant to work to prevent harm due to malice or DoS attempts.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> No financial gain, nothing.
-
crypto_grampy[m]
no one's forcing you to participate in the Monero Bounties platform
-
jonah_xd[m]
Its drama monday ?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Yeah but soon I will prove your platform is practically a ponzee scheme.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause it is btw.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What do you plan to do then?
-
jonah_xd[m]
Gl
-
crypto_grampy[m]
lol
-
sech1
"Alex then relays the prepared monero transaction, claiming Bob's XMR, while Bob's timelock is still in effect."
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Buy more upvotes and make more "awesome atomic swap comments"
-
sech1
that's not even possible because outputs are already spent and are in the timelock :D
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> >Already spent
-
jonah_xd[m]
And this why i hate reddit
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Says who.
-
sethsimmons
jonah_xd[m]: It's "Seth took the weekend off so stir up some drama while he's gone" Monday XD
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You?
-
sethsimmons
Been fun to come back to, as always
-
sech1
Says Monero daemon
-
sech1
did you even try to do this?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Hey seth if I lie to people claiming you're a privacy maximalist and not a scammer who made a shitty site and got donations for it.
-
sech1
once you send timelocked transaction, these outputs are spent
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Will you stop censoring me bro?
-
sech1
and you can't send them again
-
sech1
You don't even know how Monero works
-
sethsimmons
jonah_xd[m]: Yeah...
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Show me where I said that in the protocol, that the timelocked transaction is sent.
-
jonah_xd[m]
I use seth tor entrance node daily
-
sech1
"Bob relays a self-transaction with the same inputs."
-
sech1
same inputs ^^^
-
sech1
you can't send two transactions with the same inputs, timelocked or not
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Same inputs being the right ones, I admit my word usage was shitty I can't deliver propaganda as good as you guys.
-
sech1
you can prepare two transactions, but once the first one is broadcasted, it's game over for the other one
-
floam412[m]
bridgerton[m]: Thereβs a difference between βcensorshipβ and everyone reacting poorly to you acting like an ass
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> But I actually used the code and didn't get scammed, however I am not willing to pay 300 usd more (cause ethereum fees) just to prove you wrong when you will still avoid being honest.
-
sech1
everything about you is shitty, not only word usage. Your code is shitty, your attitude is even shittier
-
sech1
and your protocol doesn't work
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> So I will just fix that part and post the code for free btw.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Just to embarrass you.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause you are assholes.
-
sech1
have a nice day too
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> And frankly speaking you are in this for the money, I am a crazy asshole in this for the tech.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You're fundamentally bad for the community.
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> your techs shit though
-
crypto_grampy[m]
Reminds me of one of the old timers on 3rd floor that used to smear shit all over the walls of his room every weekend and yell at the nursing home staff for not doing a good job keeping his room clean
-
selsta
sethsimmons: not sure how much time you have, but do you want to do some basic testing for release-v0.17?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can admit that the first version is shitty cause the bob can scam alice.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I didn't account for that.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I will fix it though.
-
sethsimmons
Let's play "how many actively contributing members of the Monero community can I insult in one day" with archeactiX!
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I promise.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Damn that's clever, gaining the higher moral ground like this.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am totally socially defeated now.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am done.
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Happy to however I can help, but only have macOS access and Linux CLI during normal business hours.
-
sethsimmons
Is this for v0.17.3.0 release?
-
selsta
yes
-
selsta
we could tag now but I want someone else to do basic testing too
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> at least you did put some effort into code before pushing a valuable contributor away...
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I bet 10k usd in monero you don't even know why linux is so important for monero users.
-
selsta
so that we don't have some obvious issue, not that I think any exist
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Cause you're a total amateur in tech.
-
selsta
lol
-
selsta
archeactiX trying to bait everyone today
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Yeah, happy to -- have testing builds of CLI/GUI ready, or do I need to build myself?
-
nioc
archeactiX I am monero's CEO, u should be talking to me
-
selsta
sethsimmons: if you can compile yourself it would be ideal, we usually only have binaries after we tagged
-
selsta
(CLI)
-
sethsimmons
selsta: kk
-
sethsimmons
Is there a tag yet, or should I just use release-v0.17?
-
selsta
no tag yet
-
sethsimmons
I can just check myself, nvm
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Seth if I act like you're not a manipulative politician like scammer will you stop censoring me in the site?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can try selling bullshit to people too, but I am not really proficient in it.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I can pay you to teach me.
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> you can try? you did actually do that
-
nioc
archeactiX can I please call you names?
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> trying to snipe the eth swap bounty with a bullshit swap that doesnt work
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Nah I can't scam anyone, I am too prideful and honest and my emotions get the best of me.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I wish I was like these guys, power hungry and narcissistic.
-
shermand100[m]
sethsimmons: Just because you're testing anyway... Is there any reason you know of that means it's not giving a good build on Bullseye? I've been struggling for a few days.
-
shermand100[m]
Monerod runs then exits with "Bus Error"
-
shermand100[m]
Same build (as per github build instructions on Buster is fine)
-
shermand100[m]
Only if you know of something or have a chance to try?
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Building now, will test my Docker images at the same time.
-
selsta
ty
-
selsta
this is the release that will support --proxy flag for running daemon over tor
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Hold up.
-
selsta
(not just transactions over tor)
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Daemon over tor?
-
selsta
just socks5 proxy support
-
selsta
which you can use together with tor
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You guys want that and you pay this guy for it?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If I provide it for free will you stop bandwagonning him?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Actual question btw.
-
nioc
just asking questions
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am not trolling.
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Does the flag support DNS names for the Tor node?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Unlike the trustless part of swap I got this ready.
-
sethsimmons
s/node/host/
-
selsta
no, I think you opened an issue for it?
-
selsta
it wasn't changed since then
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If I provide you for free with all the requirements you scam these people for will you stop censoring me daddy?
-
sethsimmons
Yeah I did
-
sethsimmons
OK
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> You ask for 10k for a solution I give it for free.
-
sethsimmons
Big sad for Docker usage π’
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> @archeactiX several community members have reported you are interfering with their vibe. either check your vibe right now or get vibe-checked by me π«
-
nioc
I am making a pot of tea. Anybody want some?
-
sethsimmons
Would love a cup
-
sethsimmons
When privacy-preserving digital tea π²
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Sounds like tyrannical censorship to me.
-
nioc
got some as a gift, gunna try the oolong
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That goes against the monero protocol how biased.
-
sethsimmons
nioc: Nice π
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Threatening me using authority like this.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> What rules did i break btw.
-
nioc
you can disagree but not be disagreeable
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Wtf you don't even have any rules.
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> the monero protocol transfers value in an unstoppable, untraceable way. this is just a discord and we dont want unnecessary drama like that
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> That's just closed minded, drama creates intrigue and suspicion around monero.
-
shermand100[m]
Seth For Privacy: Don't suppose you're doing a build on Bullseye?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Drama sells better than celebrity nudes.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Don't be closed.
-
bridgerton[m]
* be closed minded.
-
bridgerton[m]
<monerobull> eh, people are trying to work in here, read the rules of the discord
monero.space/terms/Monero%20Space%2…ode%20of%20Conduct%202020-10-29.pdf
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I been working too dude, I say this un ironically.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am trying to find a solution for the scamming of bob without using super advanced cryptography.
-
sethsimmons
shermand100[m]: No, Ubuntu only ATM.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> It's hard af, show some sympathy unlike you guys I don't scam the monero community and I am not rich cause of it.
-
selsta
sethsimmons: oh and do you have a ledger?
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Yes, and Trezor
-
sethsimmons
Can test both, but have never compiled GUI before
-
selsta
ok, can you test ledger without updating the monero app?
-
selsta
with CLI
-
sethsimmons
I'll test CLI with both later tonight if I get the chance.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Hold up.
-
selsta
basically the CLI should complain that the Ledger app is outdated
-
selsta
and that you need 1.7.8
-
selsta
just want to know if that works correctly
-
selsta
I updated my app already so not sure how to downgrade and test
-
bridgerton[m]
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I actually been working on a trezor - monero bridge.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Daddy if I pass you the finished version will you stop censoring me when I call you out on your bullshit?
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Haven't used my Ledger in some time so should be a good test π
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Phew, ledger leaks your identity worse than bitcoin. Now I don't have to worry about avenging how you treated me unfairly, will get feded.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Thank god.
-
sethsimmons
bridgerton[m]: Are you threatening to doxx me or report me to the feds?
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Nah despite how much I despise your scamming existence I wouldn't fall that low.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I am actually serious.
-
bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If I provide you with what you look for - for free will you stop censoring me?
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Like I am actually anti government bro.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> I want to help monero more than I despise you.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> (no troll)
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chad[m]1
bridgerton[m]: Spoken like a true glowie
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> Okay i am a federal agent you got me, I am here to arrest you all and put handcuffs on you.
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> (dm me)
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chad[m]1
Good news is, CIA Steve will sign off at 5pm, and we can get back to a normal conversation again
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bridgerton[m]
<archeactiX> If i am off duty I can't talk with you bro, your lsd purchases in white house market aren't that interesting to me sorry.
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bridgerton[m]
<sgp> archeactiX has been banned on the Discord side for 14 days
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chad[m]1
* chad buys sgp a beer
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sethsimmons
selsta: deployed release-v0.17 on two of my nodes, will leave my most-used node for last but so far seems solid. Will test CLI next.
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saleph[m]
Hello everyone, recently I've got fascinated by Monero, mostly regarding it's approach to privacy, fungibility and it's goals (to be e-cash, not just another questionable coin). I'm C++ dev with CS degree and with 5y of exp in teleco (mostly 4G), mostly working with low level stuff (cache friendly structures, segmentation fault debugging, top-down system optimization etc). I'd like to help in the project. I already started chewing
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saleph[m]
through Zero to Monero 2.0, what else would you suggest to take a look at?
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sethsimmons
Welcome, saleph π
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sethsimmons
Some other good channels to join here would likely be #monero-recruitment and #monero-dev:monero.social
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sethsimmons
ZtoM is a great starting point!
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sethsimmons
Some more great tips and places to investigate are here:
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sethsimmons
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sethsimmons
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saleph[m]
> <@sethsimmons:monero.social> Some more great tips and places to investigate are here:... (full message at
libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/do…98f828e17cfea9ecca651fd6a718450ccab)
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crypto_grampy[m]
Other stuff: Check out the Mastering Monero book (free download:
masteringmonero.com/free-download.html), join the #monero-research-lab:monero.social channel and get a few neros for completing bounties here:
bounties.monero.social
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sethsimmons
selsta: so far no issues with daemon or monero-wallet-cli, will test HW wallets later.
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selsta
ty
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sethsimmons
sweep_below is a command I hadn't seen before, very useful for p2pool outputs π
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crypto_grampy[m]
sethsimmons: wat does it do
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sethsimmons
sweeps outputs below an amount threshold
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sethsimmons
So I can only sweep the small coinbase outputs and not previously combined outputs
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crypto_grampy[m]
ah
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crypto_grampy[m]
that's cool
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crypto_grampy[m]
those p2pool tx's really start piling up π
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saleph[m]
crypto_grampy[m]: Awesome :) This will feed me for quite some time, thanks!
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crypto_grampy[m]
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saleph[m]
crypto_grampy[m]: Oh, I've seen and bookmarked that one already, will be a great way to face the theory with real applications, thanks :)
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escapethe3ra[m]
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sethsimmons
selsta: Tested restore of three varying age (one very old, one very recent, and one moderately recent) wallets with release-v0.17 CLI against release-v0.17 node, no issues.
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sethsimmons
Testing sending as well, of both single input and many-input transactions, no issues.
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selsta
good
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selsta
guess we can tag once hyc tested reproducible builds
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nikg83[m]
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sethsimmons
Bold move π
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nikg83[m]
sethsimmons: Poor judgment I would say
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sethsimmons
I understand the reasoning but it's going to piss off a lot of Monero maximalists, and I don't love supporting a coin with such poor history and ethos.
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nikg83[m]
Anyways they seem to have turned into a crypto wallet than a xmr wallet
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sethsimmons
But will be pushing for a Monero-only version of Cake Wallet ASAP.
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sethsimmons
Don't want/need BTC/LTC/ZEC in my Monero wallet.
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nikg83[m]
sethsimmons: Indeed
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sethsimmons
nikg83[m]: Which 100% makes sense from a business perspective, and is fine as long as Monero remains priority #1
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sethsimmons
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sgp_
fwiw, we've never take Monero community money, through the CCS or any other way
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nikg83[m]
sgp_: Nobody said so, feel free to add xhv too
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mcfranko[m]
<nikg83[m]> "Well most of us here donβt..." <- I don't see why everyone has to be so tribalist. Zcash is making some cool tech, that does have flaws, but is still promising nonetheless.
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carrington[m]
I was under the impression that not using t-addresses was too resource intensive for mobile apps or something. Is this something orchard/halo is helping with or was I just misinformed in the first place?
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sgp_
Sprout was super big and slow
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sgp_
so mobile was effectively not possible
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sgp_
Sapling was kinda in the middle. Possible, but the tooling was meh
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sgp_
With Orchard, they've stepped up their game
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monerobull[m]
<mcfranko[m]> "I don't see why everyone has..." <- If i wanted zk-tech, I'd go with some roll-up thing that doesn't have as shady of a history as ZCash corp
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monerobull[m]
"maybe we can make it just private enough for normal people, while also not private enough for criminals"
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carrington[m]
Because ETH doesn't have a shady history at all π
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monerobull[m]
carrington[m]: Convinced, I'm going with the guy paying himself 300k a month and then demanding funding from the community or else development stops
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carrington[m]
Was it 300k per month for one person? Imagine what that could have paid for in Monero world...
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monerobull[m]
300k per month for zooko alone
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monerobull[m]
Btw did he really name the coin after himself?
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BusyBoredom[m]
Let's try to keep things civil with the zcash people. Their dev tax is funding work that monero can use too, and we may someday want to work with one or more of their devs to implement some of their tech (like the accumulator based proofs, those are pretty hot).
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BusyBoredom[m]
This is not the type of field where making enemies is useful.
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monerobull[m]
Isn't their tech copyrighted lmaooo
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monerobull[m]
And people shill it as a feature of how great the coin is
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monerobull[m]
"you can't use their tech for a whole year"
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carrington[m]
It was in some weird restricted thing for 1 year but either that's finished now or other projects are completely ignoring it
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BusyBoredom[m]
Nope, you can read their license on their github:
github.com/zcash/halo2
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carrington[m]
E.g. there is a project called DarkFi using the halo2 code
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BusyBoredom[m]
It is a very promising feature. Good ideas can come from anywhere, and this one might help us someday.
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monerobull[m]
Ah what do I care, let them test run their moon math and maybe we adopt it at some point.
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Save_G[m]
Sounds good
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BusyBoredom[m]
^Exactly. There's nothing wrong with using math they paid for.
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atomfried[m]
once sit is decided if seraphis will be used in monero, maybe the mrl could try to hire someone to check if the grottle proofs can be replaced with some accumulator based proof referencing the whole transaction graph. (maybe sarang)
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atomfried[m]
s/sit/it/
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Save_G[m]
I dont get the negative altitude towards zcash they are natural allies with a shady profit incentive but still allies.
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jwinterm[m]
Save_G[m]: That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works
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jwinterm[m]
Lol
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monerobull[m]
Save_G[m]: I dont like their supporters. They clearly don't know anything about the tech of their own bag but shit talk monero.
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jwinterm[m]
At least according to toxic maximalist people
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monerobull[m]
Why is ZCash good?
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monerobull[m]
-zksnarks
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monerobull[m]
-halo
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monerobull[m]
Can you explain what they do?
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monerobull[m]
No but i know monero is just a shell game!
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BusyBoredom[m]
It's an alternative to ring signatures, it's like having a ring size equal to all past shielded transactions.
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Save_G[m]
There are non rational people on both sides I'd rather talk about how we can improve from the tech they provide
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BusyBoredom[m]
Oh man I'm slow, I just realized that was a rhetorical question.
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BusyBoredom[m]
Regardless, I don't think we should be trashing another privacy-focused community. Those devs are good at their jobs, and the followers at least see the value in privacy. Trash the dev tax, not the devs.
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Save_G[m]
Let's say zksnarks improve a lot in the next 15 years and are generally considered to be very safe would monero adopt it if we didn't come up with a better improvement by that time?
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monerobull[m]
Save_G[m]: Probably, we already have zk proofs for confidential ammounts
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monerobull[m]
* Probably, we already have zk proofs for confidential amounts
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atomfried[m]
maybe monero does not need the whole halo framework, monero would only need on pretty specific type of proof, which could be much easier
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Save_G[m]
BusyBoredom[m]: I Love this attitude
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monerobull[m]
I don't believe most ZCash followers follow it for it's privacy, rather because they see it was once worth 2000$
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BusyBoredom[m]
I suggest you ask them and find out.
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BusyBoredom[m]
^ That reads more aggressively than I meant it to
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Save_G[m]
I think having a corporate Allie that gets its questionable funding and resulting development and research work done cannot be bad for monero in any way it can only benefit it, while monero stays the squeeky clean least scammy coin with cutting edge tech.
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monerobull[m]
Not if ZCash uses it's infinite dev funds to market us into obscurity
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BusyBoredom[m]
Economics always wins. As long as monero provides the same privacy or better for the same price or lower, we have nothing to worry about (in the long run).
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spackle[m]
It is hard to pay for better marketing than news items like the successful retirement of WHM.
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nikg83[m]
BusyBoredom[m]: Monero survives just as a tool, in and out ; keeps getting dumped to oblivion reducing network security at some point
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monerobull[m]
"this ZCash seems private enough and i can even stake it"
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monerobull[m]
Also coin bureau guy said it's better than monero in his last video
-
monerobull[m]
And snowden says it's good
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nikg83[m]
Even cake will make it better
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monerobull[m]
"even what used to be a monero wallet added ZCash"
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nikg83[m]
* > <@busyboredom:monero.social> Economics always wins. As long as monero provides the same privacy or better for the same price or lower, we have nothing to worry about (in the long run).
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nikg83[m]
Monero survives just as a tool, in and out ; keeps getting dumped to oblivion , reducing network security at some point
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bridgerton[m]
<eli> Zcash isn't ASIC resistance and is moving to PoS. Simple arguments against it.
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BusyBoredom[m]
Alrighty, I'mma go back to reading the halo 2 book.
-
Rucknium[m]
Keep in mind: "We believe the shift to proof of stake is achievable within three years if we are able to focus our time and efforts and hire additional talent."
-
Rucknium[m]
-
Rucknium[m]
Three year timeline
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monerobull[m]
Rucknium[m]: How long was eth pos supposed to take?
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bridgerton[m]
<eli> Idk if that's in response to me
-
bridgerton[m]
s/in/a/
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nikg83[m]
Rucknium[m]: Atleast they have a roadmap π
-
Rucknium[m]
It's just general info about what timeline we're talking about here.
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monerobull[m]
I swear to God of cakewallet makes monerotalk promote that they added ZCash
-
monerobull[m]
s/of/if/
-
nikg83[m]
monerobull[m]: It will be discussed, I doubt itβs going to be positive though π
-
monerobull[m]
Cant talk bad about your sponsors, can you?
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nikg83[m]
monerobull[m]: You can give your perspective
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nikg83[m]
Can someone tell why coinbase never added monero ?
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monerobull[m]
government told them it would be better not to add it
-
monerobull[m]
Well gee, wonder why they have zcash
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nioc
look at the bottom of this page, gives good reasons why zec is moving to pos, given that info guess montero should as well
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nioc
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crestani[m]
is monero prone to being broken by quantum computing?
-
nioc
everthing is prone
-
monerobull[m]
Hm yes, we carefully evaluated the pros and cons and decided number go up is the deciding factor
-
crestani[m]
is there a ranking somewhere of whats most/least prone to quantum computing? (im assuming it has something to do with how hard each thing is to break)
-
nioc
I'm sure there is but I don't know
-
crestani[m]
are there any good sci-fi books you guys have read that show specific uses and whatnot for crypto?
-
bridgerton[m]
<against covid vaccines> zcash uses rust?
-
bridgerton[m]
<against covid vaccines> dropped
-
jwinterm[m]
crestani[m]: Snowcrash is pretty great and not directly cryptocurrency related but did coin the word metaverse
-
crestani[m]
yea ive definitely read snowcrash (finishing up his latest book today). He predicts normalized use of multiple cryptos, and the carrying of them on keychain dongles
-
jwinterm[m]
It's weird how much 80s/90s scifi stuff just uses "credits" as this universal digital currency payment and banking protocol with no further explanation
-
nioc
credits in a central database
-
nioc
just a way of being cashless