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plowsof11
Meeting today in ~5 hours 15:00UTC
monero-project/meta #838
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ofrnxmr[m]
Matrix is very very slow
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ofrnxmr[m]
hopefully we can get her restarted before the meetings
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plowsof11
.ping is the bridge alive also
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plowsof
pong
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DanIsnotthemanBr
Might explain why only monero rooms are slow with the fluffychat
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plowsof11
thats alot of stickers from monerosupplies.com
reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/13sxmf…bought_a_bunch_of_stickers_to_place , does monerobull have an outreach update for us today regarding the monerochan plushies month?
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monerobull[m]
<plowsof11> "thats alot of stickers from..." <- A what
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monerobull[m]
Is there a meeting today
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monerobull[m]
I already have topia and Kon meeting ffs
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monerobull[m]
This monero stuff is more work than my actual job smh
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monerobull[m]
I do have a pretty cool announcement coming up though
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side-trips[m]
<monerobull[m]> "This monero stuff is more work..." <- I'll be mb stand-in rep if needed. Consider it my attempt toward apprenticeship lol
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plowsof11
monerobull tried to unionise and has been replaced
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monerobull[m]
Huh
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monerobull[m]
No I'm actually trying to become Jeff bezos
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monerobull[m]
plowsof11: So the opposite
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DanIsnotthemanBr
Ceo of monero?
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monerobull[m]
That sounds like a liability but i have a mug that says #1 monero ceo
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monerobull[m]
Just checked, only says monero ceo
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monerobull[m]
#1 is probably vik
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monerobull[m]
Ffs
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monerobull[m]
I just spent 20 minutes trying to figure out why i could reach
monerosupplies.com but not http
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monerobull[m]
It's because IVPN blocks http sites...
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plowsof11
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ofrnxmr[m]
Greetings
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plowsof11
hello
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Rucknium[m]
hi
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v1docq47[m]
hi
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ajs_[m]
Hi
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plowsof11
lets talk about recent events, firstly the vulnerability disclosure for 10 block old decoys bug @
monero-project/monero #8872 (which will soon be released on getmonero as a blog post)
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monerobull[m]
Hello
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hinto[m]
hello
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plowsof11
several third party wallets have already updated: cakewallet:
nitter.it/cakewallet/status/1662200109625401344 , featherwallet:
old.reddit.com/r/FeatherWallet/comments/13r2urt and mysu.dev . it is strongly recommended everyone update to the latest version of each - and cli/gui users to use v0.18.2.2 and above
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plowsof11
my nodes peer list has shown for the month of may 'more public rpc nodes using the latest version than not'
paste.debian.net/1281273
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ofrnxmr[m]
Mysu.dev stackwallet.com also updated
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monerobull[m]
Mysu was the first 🥇
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Rucknium[m]
There is a suggestion by me in MRL to treat Monero's statistical protocols like its cryptographic protocols are treated
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Rucknium[m]
Formal written specifications and code audits
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plowsof11
thanks for confirming, ofrnxmr had also contacted all of the above to inform them about the issue.
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plowsof11
Monerujo will be the last?
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ofrnxmr[m]
monerujo and anonero pending
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Rucknium[m]
This is at least the third programming problem in the decoy selection algorithm (not protocol/math/stats problem) in the last two years or so
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Rucknium[m]
If Monero's cryptography code had this many problems, it could be catastrophic.
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Rucknium[m]
Maybe I can convince jeffro to work on the C++ side and reserve-engineer a specification for what the code actually does now.
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plowsof11
sounds like a priority , i wonder where it would fit into seraphis' plans (i know jeffro256 also shares the sentiment of a full re-write of the algorithm)
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Rucknium[m]
We need to know what the current algorithm does anyway
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plowsof11
jeffro has recently finished his ccs ... perhaps something for the next one? 👀
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Rucknium[m]
Regardless of any plans for future rewrites
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ofrnxmr[m]
jeffro256: ccs soon, i hope
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plowsof11
the Monero project gets flack for releasing disclosures on reddit/github issues - for this one, we can pretend like there was a pre-release (to make sure it was factually correct, then we're going to push it to a getmonero blog like professionals)
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Rucknium[m]
By the way, two of the problems were pretty classic programming mistakes (not at all a statistics issue). This recent one was off-by-one error. Another one was integer division when it should have been floating point division.
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plowsof11
vtnerd , and jberman also new ccs soon? (vtnerd has been looking into bulletproofs re-write from haskell c++... [Jberman CCS update](
repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/359#note_21276) ~40% faster local wallet scanning using Koes [asynchronous design](
gist.github.com/UkoeHB/4b3528a5c3a3134bd82d19a2bc6a8e87)
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vtnerd
Yes, soon I will request one
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r4v3r23[m]
yo
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plowsof11
anything else to share? News: [Monero Observer](
monero.observer) - [Revuo Monero](
revuo-xmr.com) - [The Monero Standard](
localmonero.co/the-monero-standard) - [Monero Moon](
themoneromoon.com)
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plowsof11
(after highlighting Ruckniums comments in bold)
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r4v3r23[m]
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plowsof11
we will get to that shortly yes
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plowsof11
moving on to the merge requests
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plowsof11
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plowsof11
they have created some short animated videos for monerokon (inside the Animated Videos folder here
cryptpad.disroot.org/drive/#/2/driv…gc5FqX-JXn7FgMQllZRdQfrqk+6ubQSjGBs)
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monerobull[m]
Merge vosto
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monerobull[m]
Very good 👍
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plowsof11
they have made assurences that the produced video will have the same quality as this example (not created by them but just a reference)
yewtu.be/watch?v=pYOSfEgF32Y&ab_channel=XPLAI and are putting an expiry date into their proposal of 4 months after funded to complete
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plowsof11
9xmr to be raised through the CCS (not currently taking over the other animated videos proposal)
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plowsof11
all things considered i like it too and will give a thumbs up
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hinto[m]
is the previous animation ccs still on-going?
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ofrnxmr[m]
hinto[m]: No
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hinto[m]
this seems like a good opportunity to re-use the funds
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ajs_[m]
vosto might also do post production video editing for monerokon 2023
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Rucknium[m]
VostoEmisio did two small paid graphic design projects for me. I was satisfied with the result.
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ofrnxmr[m]
I believe the intent here is to try to do a better job at the same rate
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plowsof11
the reason for not re-using is they didnt specifically target taking over that ccs right now
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plowsof11
ideally this would be a short test?
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ofrnxmr[m]
We can alwways choose to use the funds for it if we feel like it / after merging
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plowsof11
after the animated explainer ptsd
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plowsof11
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ofrnxmr[m]
Iirc this is for 1 video to start, and will evolve into more if we accept
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monerobull[m]
plowsof11: That one was obvious trainwreck from the first demo though
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monerobull[m]
Vostos is actually looking awesome
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plowsof11
yes voting for a small ccs to evolve into 'possibly taking over the animated video ccs' as ofrnxmr says above is my thoughts here
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plowsof11
is there anyone against it?
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ajs_[m]
+1
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plowsof11
the video will be (to be confirmed) about common misconceptions - first videos topic: monero has an infinite supply , is this bad etc
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plowsof11
looks like its a merge on this one
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hinto[m]
no comment on this one
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plowsof11
moving on
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plowsof11
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cryptogrampy[m]
<plowsof11> "thanks for confirming, ofrnxmr..." <- Has anyone contacted mymonero? Are they affected?
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cryptogrampy[m]
I just want to mention that I got mymonero-web-wallet working in a self-hosted way, that works with self-hosted monero-lws server. Spendss actually work as well ☺️
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Rucknium[m]
cryptogrampy: My guess is that MyMonero is not affected. I believe they still have their own decoy selection code that is not a direct copy of wallet2's code. It would be good to check.
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plowsof11
also, giving your viewkey to them: they already know when you spend an output ?
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r4v3r23[m]
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r4v3r23[m]
>
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r4v3r23[m]
ive been testing this lib with valldrac to help identify bugs and get the demo app to a stable state. android needs more monero support, since all the major wallets are already on or moving to cross-platform frameworks. huge +1 from me
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plowsof11
thanks for testing r4v3r23
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ofrnxmr[m]
for me, sdk sccs largely depends on
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ofrnxmr[m]
1. how this relates to molly ccs, if at all
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ofrnxmr[m]
2. How this relates to existing java solutions such as monerujo
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ofrnxmr[m]
...(truncated)
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r4v3r23[m]
ofrnxmr[m]: > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> for me, sdk sccs largely depends on
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r4v3r23[m]
> 1. how this relates to molly ccs, if at all
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r4v3r23[m]
> 2. How this relates to existing java solutions such as monerujo
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r4v3r23[m]
...(truncated)
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ofrnxmr[m]
Wth r u talking ab(ut
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ofrnxmr[m]
Depend on monerujo?
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r4v3r23[m]
you tell me
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ofrnxmr[m]
more options?
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r4v3r23[m]
"unless monerujo did the work already"
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r4v3r23[m]
whats wrong with more android options?
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ofrnxmr[m]
Read what i wrote and read the ccs
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ofrnxmr[m]
The proposer doesnt know if this is duplicate work
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plowsof11
kayabanerve spoke highly of this ccs in this comment here
repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/388#note_21318 (having spoke first hand about issues including the security++ idea when validating blocks from remote nodes)
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r4v3r23[m]
fragementation? you prefer centralized options?
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r4v3r23[m]
ofrnxmr: your critique makes no sense
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r4v3r23[m]
a better, modern SDK for building android wallets, unrelated to molly. why be against?
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kayabanerve[m]
ofrnxmr: Molly has a distinct CSS for their integration, and as r4v3r23 noted, it's not Molly specific.
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ofrnxmr[m]
only to you
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kayabanerve[m]
As for Monerujo, they definitively did not do the work present in the Molly efforts.
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r4v3r23[m]
this benefits the monero ecosystem as a hole
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r4v3r23[m]
s/hole/whole/
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plowsof11
monerujo dont exist until they update to v0.18.2.2, ticktock
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kayabanerve[m]
Molly still uses wallet2, yet barely. It's a complete re-architecture of the wallet side.
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cryptogrampy[m]
Is monerujo still alive
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kayabanerve[m]
It's halfway between wallet2 and a complete rewrite (monero-serai).
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plowsof11
ofrnxmr himself updated monerujo apk to use an updated version of monero several months ago
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r4v3r23[m]
so we only need 1 android option? i dont understand
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plowsof11
they slow AF
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ofrnxmr[m]
kayabanerve: im referring to
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ofrnxmr[m]
> It is important to note that we have not conducted a comprehensive comparative analysis yet between our SDK and existing Java libraries like Monerujo's xmrwallet or woodser's monero-java.
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r4v3r23[m]
are we pro centralization?
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kayabanerve[m]
That's how it's able to offer the amount of features, flexibility, and security it declares.
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cryptogrampy[m]
Can valldrac up the ccs amount and add light wallet server support
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r4v3r23[m]
cryptogrampy[m]: hes open to more advanced features, first is to get a stable basic version out
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kayabanerve[m]
ofrnxmr: Sorry if I'm missing context, I'm just joining in, but my point stands AFAICT. Molly is a sweeping re-architecture to meet strict goals not achievable under existing works, which simply bind wallet2.
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ofrnxmr[m]
the quote i posted is from the ccw
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r4v3r23[m]
any meaningful objections to a new Android wallet SDK?
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cryptogrampy[m]
If valldracs implementation makes it easier for people to build wallets than monerujos existing code then I'm for it
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ofrnxmr[m]
Yes
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ofrnxmr[m]
> It is important to note that we have not conducted a comprehensive comparative analysis yet between our SDK and existing Java libraries like Monerujo's xmrwallet or woodser's monero-java.
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kayabanerve[m]
Most of the features in the CCS aren't possible without messing with the guts of wallet2. Accordingly, they're exclusive to Molly, since no one else has put in this level of effort yet (in this context, Android).
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ofrnxmr[m]
valldrac themself claims they dont know (?)
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r4v3r23[m]
ofrnxmr: dont donate if you have issues. i fail to see reasons to block this CCS
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plowsof11
note that this is the first time the idea has been discussed - and iirc valldrac also wants to update the demo?
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r4v3r23[m]
plowsof11: he his, and ive been testing the apk
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kayabanerve[m]
@woodser's work on monero-java would be the best-case existing work, due to their work on APIs, yet it's monero-java, not monero-android.
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kayabanerve[m]
Hm. I'll invite them to the conversation.
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ofrnxmr[m]
Thank you
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woodser[m]
hello there 👋
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kayabanerve[m]
I'm unsure if they immediately have the time, yet they can comment now how monero-java is comparable to the proposed Molly work.
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kayabanerve[m]
Yo. Able to see the prior messages or need someone to bring down context?
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woodser[m]
yeah I can see prior messages
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woodser[m]
distilling the context is also nice :)
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kayabanerve[m]
Also, I could be wrong, yet AFAIK Monerujo doesn't have a library. It's an app which integrates wallet2.
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r4v3r23[m]
note this isnt just an monero lib, its and SDK with a working demo app that devs can base their wallets on
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kayabanerve[m]
I'm not trying to say it can't be used as a lib. I'm noting Monerujo isn't trying to be a lib AFAIK.
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r4v3r23[m]
its makes creatong hugh quality android wallets significantly easier
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kayabanerve[m]
Molly CCS for an effective Monero Android SDK with a variety of security and functionality improvements over wallet2.
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r4v3r23[m]
s/creatong/creating/, s/hugh/high/
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kayabanerve[m]
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kayabanerve[m]
ofrnxmr: noted how valldrac themselves noted a lack of comparisons.
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kayabanerve[m]
* of comparisons between existing work and the proposed.
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r4v3r23[m]
devs still need to create JNI bindings when using monerujos lib
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plowsof11
i like that maintenance is added into the ccs and valdrac is going to put an expiry on it so if its not completed in a reasonable amount of time, funds released. A comment from woodser would be great. as we have 13 minutes left and another idea to discuss, seems logical to wait for the comparison and discuss again later?
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kayabanerve[m]
I commented how existing work (Monerujo and monero-java) are wallet2 bindings. Molly's proposal significantly re-impls wallet2 functionality to achieve its goals. I also ack'd xmr-java's API work, and then brought you in to further compare the two.
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kayabanerve[m]
That's the summary, woodser ;)
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r4v3r23[m]
SDK is an upgrade in terms of development
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plowsof11
we can move on to the next idea in the meantime with 10 minutes left
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plowsof11
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ajs_[m]
hi
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r4v3r23[m]
plowsof: re: 388 looks like majority in favor with no real objections
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ajs_[m]
the idea is to set up Mobilizon instance and promote meet ups
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plowsof11
nioc and midipoet had a question or 2 in those comments
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ofrnxmr[m]
How much of 36 xmr goes towards the first trip
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ofrnxmr[m]
The monerokon trip
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ajs_[m]
i was going to use some of the funding for a trip to prague and attend events durnig PBW, but i am not sure I'll stay the whole week
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ajs_[m]
i might use monerokon funds for a quick trip for a few days
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ofrnxmr[m]
Including printing of flyers, stickers, and t-shirts to giveaway at meetup
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ajs_[m]
i think we can put off a decision
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ajs_[m]
and flush out the ideas more
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ajs_[m]
thats all
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midipoet
i just wanted to make sure the proposed meetups were advertised on meetup.com or whatever the local/regular meetup website it (even if facebook), as we want to use those meetups to get new people in. That is all really. Other than that i support the funds being used (though 36 XMR is quite a bit of fiat).
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plowsof11
guestimate of the funds required for each - if i remember the trip will cost 3kusd? has support from nioc,midipoet,geonic and maybe scott already judging by those comments. ajs is also: planning monthly [Monero meetups](
reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/13o0d9…o_t%C3%BCrkiye_meetup_25th_31st_may) in Türkiye - ajs
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ofrnxmr[m]
So around 20/36 xmr - does this inckude the giveaways?
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ajs_[m]
3k for the full week
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ajs_[m]
but i will make a short trip instead
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ajs_[m]
and bill monerokon funds
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plowsof11
so we need to know where the 36 xmr plays into this all (it you could itemise each / flesh it out?) is that the plan moving forward?
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ajs_[m]
put the idea on hold
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ajs_[m]
when i have more time I'll put together a more detailed proposal
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plowsof11
ok thank you
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plowsof11
to summarise, VostoEmisio Animated Core Concept Videos -> merge. Android Wallet sdk -> more support than not, i would feel comfortable waiting on woodsers feedback also (its also the first time weve discussed it). Ajs taking over outreach -> on hold.
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plowsof11
thoughts?
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ofrnxmr[m]
Seconded
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woodser[m]
read the ccs
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woodser[m]
my take is it's basically an android-focused service and SDK, to wrap parts of wallet2 in a kotlin api
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plowsof11
next meeting time: it seems like we have several events taking place concurrently on saturdays and i want to force everyone to be here for a 1 hour meeting that lasts almost 2 hours like the good old days (not possible anymore)
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valldrac[m]
Just one clarification about the SDK. I didn't compare it with Monerujo and monero-java in a "comprehensive" way because those libraries weren't suitable for Molly's needs in the first place. They didn't have the necessary functions and flexibility we required. We discussed this in the CCS. Basically, none of these libraries had the key features of the SDK (a total of 10). While we can compare them in terms of security, performance
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valldrac[m]
SDK is still being heavily developed, so I'm not sure if it make sense to compare them right now. I'm confident the SDK will perform better anyway. The only drawback is that it's more complex internally
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valldrac[m]
* of use, for the, * the common features, the SDK is
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ofrnxmr[m]
Can you give some examples of what would be an uncommon feature?
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valldrac[m]
ofrnxmr[m]: For example, with the SDK the app can choose how to store and encrypt the wallet data
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woodser[m]
fair, though I can point to monero-java's ability to export the wallet data as byte[], then the app can store/encrypt it however
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woodser[m]
maybe these serve different purposes, and an android sdk/service provides advantages in that context. from what I can see, the proposed apis are more focused to achieve basic wallet functionality, at least to start, whereas monero-java is intended to be a broad library to expose as much functionality as possible behind "clean apis"
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r4v3r23[m]
from what I understand, monerujos lib is just an android build for monero, which apps then need to bind to. 3 apps til now have just used monerujos' default JNIs, whereas this SDK would provide another way to interact with monero codebase
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valldrac[m]
Here's another example. The app can change the list of nodes to sync with on the go. It tells the SDK which nodes to use, and you can switch them up while syncing. This lets you connect to multiple nodes and spread out the connections evenly (client-side load balance)
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r4v3r23[m]
monerujo is moving to Dart for android/ios compatibilty, so using their wallet as a base wont be viable much longer
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r4v3r23[m]
* much longer for native Android devs
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valldrac[m]
<woodser[m]> "fair, though I can point to..." <- Yeah, that's true. But can I export the wallet safely even when other stuff, like syncing, is happening?
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woodser[m]
yes to my knowledge. it's merely using the same code to export and save wallet data from monero-wallet-rpc or the gui
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r4v3r23[m]
s/monerujos/m2049r's/
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woodser[m]
<valldrac[m]> "Here's another example. The..." <- if this requires any customizations to monero-project, it would be nifty to push that feature upstream so other apps/librarys can inherit. either way, could be a nice feature to support in monero-java too, alongside its current connection manager
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valldrac[m]
woodser[m]: wallet2 needs to be re-engineered, and that's exactly what Seraphis is going for
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plowsof11
if woodser has more time, and can come to a decision on yes/no for this ccs , much appreciated. i think we can end the meeting here? thank you all for attending
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valldrac[m]
plowsof11: Sorry, I thought the meeting was over already 😅
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ofrnxmr[m]
I thought we were in after hrs as well
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woodser[m]
my main thought is I would be prepared to put in a lot of work and ongoing maintenance, because wrapping these apis is no small feat already, and I'm reading that there will be quite a bit of massaging of the existing wallet2 calls. so it's will be a committment
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woodser[m]
s/'s//, s/committment/commitment/
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ofrnxmr[m]
<plowsof11> "to summarise, VostoEmisio..." <- Id end the meeting minutes here
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valldrac[m]
woodser[m]: Yeah, it's a hassle. But it's either dealing with the mess or giving up on Monero on Android, honestly
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valldrac[m]
* Android, honestly (for native apps at least)
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woodser[m]
yeah I can see the advantage of a monero sdk targeted for android to help get devs running quickly on that environment
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r4v3r23[m]
woodser[m]: this is the key point
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valldrac[m]
<ofrnxmr[m]> "for me, sdk sccs largely depends..." <- > <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> for me, sdk sccs largely depends on
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valldrac[m]
> 1. how this relates to molly ccs, if at all
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valldrac[m]
> 2. How this relates to existing java solutions such as monerujo
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valldrac[m]
...(truncated)
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valldrac[m]
* Let me answer those questions:
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valldrac[m]
1. We need the SDK to integrate Monero in Molly. No SDK, no Molly integration. For the SDK, I estimate it will take 3-6 months from now to complete the development. Once that's done, we can move forward the integration in Molly while the SDK is maintained for 6 months. If we're lucky, Molly will have Monero by the time this CCS is over
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valldrac[m]
2. The current libraries have issues and missing features for Android apps. The SDK aims to fix them
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valldrac[m]
...(truncated)
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DanIsnotthemanBr
After 6months bin it? Or create a new proposal too maintain?
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plowsof11
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geonic
plowsof11: the misleading trailer just dropped
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geonic
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geonic
:p
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plowsof11
this is exactly the kind of misleading trailer i hoped for, thank you <3
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geonic
my pleasure!