<a​js_:matrix.org> MoneroKon 2024 Planning Meeting today @ 17:00 UTC monero-project/meta #903

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Community meeting later today in 6hr 7 min monero-project/meta #900

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> no count down clock?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> meeting in 30 mins, beep boop monero-project/meta #900

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I might actually get there!

Meeting time monero-project/meta #900

Greetings, hi

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Hello

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Gmorning

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> Hey

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> ^

<m​ichael:monero.social> Hello.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> summer, is over! hope everyone is happy and well, lets discuss some community highlights while we all arrive

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Hi

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Fruit basket?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> bounties.monero.social has seen some activity lately, mainly around the nostr client for Monero bounties.monero.social/posts/94 ,, i wonder if pluja would be up to the task (spoiler: he is busy atm) but also shared an update on one of his nostr related projects [Nerostr: a Nostr paid relay, but with Monero (new version)](monero.town/post/648493)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Ruckniums recent research about fee abnormalities (briefly discussed yesterday) libera.monerologs.net/monero-community/20230929#c284802

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> would an explainer at rucknium.me be beneficial?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> blog*

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I might do that.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Bitmain x5 miner seems to have been a disaster, overheating / dusty. it also can not mine anything other than Monero ( always keep an eye on the #monero-pow:monero.social, interesting stuff discussed there)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Bitmain X5 images released [img dot ur](imgur.com/a/S03VsWf) - [r*ddit thread](reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/16txlh…has_been_cracked_open_here_is_whats)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> [Upcoming Jamtis Dynamic View Tag Design Discussion/Poll](reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/16uxj2…ming_jamtis_dynamic_view_tag_design) - jeffro256

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not even wownero?!

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> this r*ddit thread required some propaganda for "pro dynamic viewtags" - thankfully tevador rose to the occasion and rbrunner gladly relayed the messages

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> MAYBE townforge gold !

<p​olar9669:matrix.org> Nope, only xmr and they might release firmware/sw update

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Firmware fixes smoke?

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Yes, but it would have to bring hashrate down

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Yes, but it would have to bring hashrate down, it would have to monitor temperatures if it doesn

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Yes, but it would have to bring hashrate down, it would have to monitor temperatures if it doesn't already

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Yes, but it would have to bring hashrate down, it would have to monitor temperatures if it doesn't already and bring down clock speed

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Sounds efficient

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (Sidenote: careful/avoid with edits. The log get messy)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> spanish speaking persons out there - anhdres has you covered with a new Cafe Nero podcast (links and into video here) Cafe Nero linktr.ee/cafemonero yewtu.be/watch?v=CDlQGCVJ8DE

<p​luja:matrix.org> Hey, indeed I was taking a look at how this could be done yesterday and I might give it a shot soon, but I can't promise anything yet... :)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We need a list of podcasts coming our of community

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> pluja of (kycnot.me, whishper.net, blogo.site, the new nerostr, awesome-privacy...) :slau

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Directory ?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> 🫡

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Stack wallet has stack cast etc

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Google chromecast?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats -policy (had to)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> and silverpill , with Mitra , answered(answering) questions about it in #monero-community-dev:monero.social [Mitra update](codeberg.org/silverpill/mitra/releases/tag/v1.36.0)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> active newsletters we have [Revuo Monero](revuo-xmr.com) - [The Monero Standard](localmonero.co/the-monero-standard)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> anything else we would like to mention?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> ah yes, bp++ new price of 32k as its a greatly expanded paper (need to get the ball rolling on that asap)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The meetup

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Cheap

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> oh ofcourse, Siren and Stnby attending it. [Istanbul meetup sponsored by localmonero.co](reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/16q4k2…l_meetup_sponsored_by_localmoneroco) Siren and Stnby to attend to present Monero ATM's next milestones (what after pizza box) and also Metronero.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Istanbul meetup sponsored by localmonero.co Siren and Stnby to attend to present Monero ATM's next milestones (what after pizza box) and also Metronero.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> 2nd of October

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Alt exposed

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> aaaand new release / tag iminent .. either today tomorrow or soon(tm)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> imminent

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> right, shall we move on to the ccs updates. i see vostoemisio is here!

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i hear you released a video or something

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> hehe, we released it yesterday, over 5k views already on X

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> youtu.be/vjn9l3hG4ME?si=b5n6WWwnxlTRHtSM

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> Great feedback so far, if anyone have any input or ideas for improvement please let me know

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> nice work 👍️ , seems to have completed your open CCS ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/VOSTOEM…SIO-TailEmission-Concept-Video.html 🫡 (pending the open source of the files and such)

<v​ostoemisio:matrix.org> We've already cleaned up the source files, I can upload them later today

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I haven't watched yet 🙈

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "miners would be forced to raise tx fees". I don't agree with this statement. Miners don't set fees. See Theorem 1 of "Monopoly without a Monopolist"

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Thanks, Vosto

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> pending the reception of this then, we could circle back round and tackle the older proposal ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/savandra-videos-for-monero.html (a discussion for another day/meeting) e.g. savandra vs vosto to resume/take over - or repurpose funds toward another animated proposal

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> checking my calandar, there should be an oscar nominated movie [Limite update](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/371#note_22460) - geonic

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Voice message.ogg

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Accident ^

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I dont like the comment about the community in the update

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Need stay on topic with update

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Same.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > On a not so grateful note, I'd like to add that since opening this proposal, I've been on the receiving end of a campaign of harassment, abuse, libel and doxxing -- threatened and actual -- by a group of vindictive downvoters, some of whom are in this thread. These purported "community members" are actively working against the wishes of the donors who supported the proposal. I v<clipped message>

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> iew this behavior as a long-term threat to the CCS and hope some remedial action is taken.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Not warranted tbh

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Heres my update, show me the money

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Also called for banning of people who scrutinize in progress ccs proposals.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i dont think geonic is here atm , we can jump into the bans issue later on

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> id just like to make nite

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Note, or clarify

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> thanks ! nowww recapping the random merges on a tuesday

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> That in progress ccs proposals arent "do whatever you want" periods.. youre expected to deliver, or keep us updated etc, no?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> a. [recanman to take over Monero integrations pt. 3](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/402) Merged - GLHF

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Thank you. It's going well so far. I'll send a progress update soon.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Purgatory ccs are all technically "in progress"

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> do you feel confident about the 2nd milestone,, the gateway work?

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I've looked into it, and it is not too hard.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> recanmann to completed one of the oldest purgatory / in progress ccs'

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I haven't worked with wordpress too much, but it shouldn't be too hard to set it up locally and play around with it

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Was created on a scroll

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Its that old

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i have no new updates to present for any of the others btw sadly .. (haveno back end / not ccs related is moving at a nice pace with updates)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Sdk ?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> keep us updated with your progress recanmann 🙏

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> valldrac: is active / probably has updates to share yes (molly itself is being updated with new features such as multi device support etc)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> And edit message

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Multidevice support is a signal feature, no?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Winrar *

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> That too

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> it was recently just added to molly

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I don't think so, but I've never used signal

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> moving on with the tuesday night merge list:

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> b. [Add retroactive funding proposal for FCMPs](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/403) Merging soon because 'if not funded in x months - i receive what was raised and consider it as being paid in full' was added

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> kayabanever has added that, so it will be merged soon(tm)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> he added a period of 2 months

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> c. [Create Educational Content in Spanish](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/406) Merged for funding @ ccs.getmonero.org/funding-required

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> GL Lovera 🙏

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sounds good 2 me

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yep

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> d. [Selfhosted tor gitea instance of monero source](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/408)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> has added a comment repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/408#note_22516

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> 4rkal has been hosting the instance already since posting the proposal

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I don't think it should be funded IMO

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> There are already thousands of decentralized mirrors - that is called git

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> perhaps he could address the concerns i raised in my comment, i personally don't see it as being useful

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Possibly useful things: Practical PGP-based web of trust, checking how many commits to the monero repo are signed (is it all?), researching ways to make sure no commits are missing.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Someone needs to get monero off proprietary software

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Pretty much impossible

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> For the majority of users

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we have hashes up to a certain point/state i guess they could be... signed

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So the og proposal was started because of tornado cash and github deleting devs

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> if your opinion of this ccs is negative - could it be changed to an updoot? if yes, do you have any suggestions to change it? if no then please vote to close . i do commend 4rkal for the honest milestone/payout structure and hosting it already

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I vote to close

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I vote to close. It's a nice idea but impractical in practice - we are putting trust in a person for hosting the decentralized mirror

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I vote to close. It's a nice idea but impractical in practice - we are putting trust in a (random) person for hosting the decentralized mirror

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> 4rkal also received a double bounties payout - and refunded the money to all involved , so he's an honest person (long story dont ask)

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> And the notion of git being decentralized already...

<4​rkal:matrix.org> If it was up to me I would have moved all monero repos off GitHub. Not a good idea to have a privacy project on GitHub. I do understand that for some reason it has been decided to host them on GitHub. So what I'm proposing is a way to interact with the code (view clone etc) in a Foss censorship resistant manor. I do understand the concerns about trust and am open to suggestions.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There was a long discussion about moving away from github

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Should read that first

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Tldr

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> ^

<r​ucknium:monero.social> This isn't the "long discussion", but some info on "backups": libera.monerologs.net/monero-dev/20220809#c131094

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> thanks Rucknium

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> monero-project/meta #236

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> thanks ofrnxmr, 4rkal can read and respond to suggestions following this meeting. with 8 minutes left (with another proposal and a hot topic to cover)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> e. [dangerousfreedom - wallet work](repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/409)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Say github rm -rf monero there is a backup/mirror?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> previous ccs completed / payout requested (i assume waiting for a review of sorts / 'we're pleased' from the workgroup rbrunner .. and then to handle the new one

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> git.wownero.com/monero-project/monero

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Unrelated note, lbsrc.getmonero.org is down

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> previous ccs update rbrunner repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/377#note_22413

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I say merge, his work is very much needed.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Cloudflare

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And -dev

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Especially with the seraphis wallet PoC

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> thanks for the report, moving quickly on, a policy update - [Response to a Proposal for a REGULATION OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> COUNCIL on the legal tender of euro banknotes and coins](ec.europa.eu/info/law/better-regula…uro-banknotes-and-coins/F3436571_en) #monero-policy:monero.social ,,, Dan r/dark (Is not the man & Braxman Tomsparks Advocate ) has also been working on degoogling things for them so they can produce the a<clipped message>

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> bove types of papers using e.g. onlyoffice

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yest

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> finally, bans, monero-project/meta #899

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Waiting on midi too test

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> This will be an interesting topic to discuss

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Matrix/IRC Lack of proper moderation^

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I think my post says enough

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> now, 2 or 3 days ago the situation came to a head , and people skept on it, and it seems to be civil now? is my understanding correct?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Think so

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> When it comes to moderation vs administration, i find a lot of mods to be opportunistic.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> But it come to me making an issue doe something to be done

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> But it come to me making an issue for something to be done

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Beside plowsof there isnt consistent mods in rooms

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its been a thing for a long time. Mostly from those with the most power

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> And then banning in reso room :/

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They don't participate, and but happily jump on the banhammer if someone they dont like speaks up

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Example from months ago "does anybody mind if i ban endogenic?" From an admin that doesnt even attend meetings or reply to developers DM's

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i ban kitty without warning / unban apologise - then do nothing other times

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Imo admins should admin. Mods should mod

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Admins shouldnt moderate groups they arent even active in

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And most of all, mods should put their username in the ban reason when using banhammer

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Or ban from gui

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> That shows names

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> we have plenty of admin issues (bad history settings in maby rooms, no logging setup, no bridges) etc

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Thats the other thing why isnt resolutions logged?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Because charuto "said no bridges allowed"

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So no logs and no history

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So, also it means no irc users allowed

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yep

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Youd think other mods would attend this meeting

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> this topic is open ended/on-going , i think we can end the meeting soon/here after going over a bit

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> yes sir. Can end meeting

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Sleepy time

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Point here: we need to select admins and their duties, mods and their duties, and change them when necessary

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We have some rooms admin by dead accounts

thanks all for attending ^ nioc has or has not renamed to something else

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We have rooms like NWLB that dont work with the #monero libera namespace

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thanks. Bye everyone

do we need a NWLB or Seraphis (or both)

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> Could probably just cut that line and leave in the selling hardware. I'm not familiar with the paper you quoted but that sounds correct.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> It's sort of a minor point. I don't know if there is a plan for an updated video or this is the final version. If this is supposed to be the final version, it's not a big enough deal to change it just for that.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Miners cannot just raise fees to save BTC from a security death spiral. Users, in the aggregate, set fees. If users are not willing to pay more, then fee revenue will not rise.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> miners can choose to mine an empty block / mine zero fee transactions if they had custom software, maybe this sentence feels strange because its a condensed version of a bigger picture? not sure

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> Yeah makes sense. The idea was to emphasize that miners are reliant on fees in the Bitcoin model especially in the long run

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> only remote nodes in monero can raise fees

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> :(

<r​ucknium:monero.social> plowsof: Mining empty blocks is not the profit maximizing strategy. It's cutting into your profits for no benefit. That's what the theorem says.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> There is "selfish mining", but that's a block withholding strategy. That's not a strategy to mine empty blocks IIRC

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The theorem has a formal proof, but it's not a "stretch". It's not surprising.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Basically, miners are price takers so they cannot raise prices how they want. Back to basic microeconomics :)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Here's the paper: moneroresearch.info/index.php?action=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=78

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "Competition among service providers within the platform and free entry imply no entity can profitably affect the level of fees paid by users. Instead, a market for transaction-processing determines the fees users pay to gain priority and avoid transaction-processing delays."

plowsof: you linked to dangerousfreedom's current CCS but did not link his new proposal which is repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/409

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> Yeah so indirectly there is less incentive to mine if total reward goes down (block reward + fees)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yes. Then security decreases since there are fewer honest miners.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Or less aggregate honest hashpower. Maybe the same number of miners, but they produce less hashpower on average

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> I guess that's why I think tweaking the line is unnecessary. Miners don't literally raise the fees but it's implied that fees will have to go up to secure the network

<r​ottenwheel:nokyc.im> plowsof do better!

I didnt know this mtg was going to happen but I have to say I'm pleased that the example with me was used for something good. it distressed me considerably when it happened.

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Hello, I released a simple tool for converting between Monero denominations: github.com/recanman/monero-denominations-converter

0.18.3.0 tagged

endogenic: when/where was this

it was referenced in the mtg earlier but iirc it was during a "research lab" meeting

step1: gain apparent legitimacy within community

step2: discredit or disrupt activists

doesnt matter who's *really* behind it or their interests - personally motivated or not

speaking of mods/admins, why is Seth still an admin? he announced his leave from the community

oh really

is he still a reddit mod too?

almost like monero a headless snake nowadays

wait that isnt a commonly used metaphor

regardless if there are conflicts of interest in the leadership the community will go downhill. this has always been true on earth

that's why i've said in the past the community needs to decide what precedents it will set. they arent inconsequential

we’ve had CoI in the “leadership” forever tho

ordinarily a person like me wouldnt have been able to stick around - but i'm not exactly typical

we havent always had those conflicts

they've developed as people have changed their activities and made decisions

the choices were still open in the past

monero generally ought to strive to close *all* attack surface

that's the attitude that made monero a living project in the past

nowadays the culture, as i said, is at risk, and it shows.. anyway, said it before

rucknium: BTC mining isn't a free market, as there are a number of barriers to entry. Also, miners can collude to raise fees and, due to said barriers, may be successful (depending on the percentage of total hashpower controlled by the cartel).

<r​ucknium:monero.social> m​idipoet: You just need _some_ small miners to defeat that behavior. The theorem assumes that large miners exist.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Did you read the paper?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I think if there was a threat of soft forking (orphaning) blocks that did not follow cartel rules, that would be the only way. You would need a cartel with majority hash rate and willing to fork orphans

given the amount of transactions on btc these days, you would need more than _some_. The reduction in "honest" block space would then naturally force fees higher.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> But it's a prisoner's dilemma issue (or tragedy of the commons, collective action problem, etc., whatever label you want). It's rational to defect. So miners would. It's better to get the fees now before your competitor does

<r​ucknium:monero.social> You're not engaging with the paper

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Theorem: "In any induced game between large miners, it is a dominant strategy for each large miner i to choose the block assembly policy A∗ and the computational power x∗i . Moreover, for any choice of computational power x i , we have that A∗,xi dominates A,xi for any block assembly policy A."

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> Game theory broken by people who never learned game theory and don't know how to be rational actors /s but not /s

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "Theorem 1 holds regardless of the number of large miners. In particular, free entry of small miners precludes large miners from profitably affecting transaction fees even if all large miners collude."

<r​ucknium:monero.social> You could say what I found here is empirical counter evidence to Theorem 1, but that was more mining pool operators not paying attention to default configurations and less them developing a complex collusion scheme: rucknium.me/posts/monero-transactions-60-seconds-faster

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Plus the fact that the amount of money they were leaving on the table was not much.

rucknium: i haven't read the paper, no.

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