<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Someone from core attending the meeting?

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Probably not

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> We'll see

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Hmm

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Should give community a progress report on whats been done to workout how jet funds took off without us,also steps that are being taken to protect existing wallets and what cybersec plan are they implementing to protect the rest of monero infrastructure

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> Join us LIVE from labitconfin Buenos Aires! SAT 11AM-EDT/5PM-CET! !

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> 👀➡️: youtube.com/watch?v=CsCjRSul6Yo

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> Join ➡️: streamyard.com/4tmv6k8zkm

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> 🙏🏽

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> monero.com

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> cakewallet.com

<c​omradeblin:matrix.org> localmonero.co

if someone missed, monero-project/meta #926

maybe not the best idea, but maybe someone can use any part of it

even with just GF2 design

fluffypony: CCS meeting here in just under 3hrs. Now that you are one of us maybe you want to attend

one of us. one of us

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Meeting says 15:00utc which is in 1 hour monero-project/meta #920 😮

oh clock change

fluffy ^^

Meeting time monero-project/meta #920

Greetings

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> hi hello

hi

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> hey

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> greets

<r​brunner7:monero.social> hello

hi

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> nice to see people arriving, so usually we'd spend the opening 15 mins or so on recent events then dive into the CCS ideas list, however, until we have a path forward i can't see us getting to the ideas.

<c​trej:matrix.org> hello

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> ideas first

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> hello

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> The agenda/goal of this meeting should be to help clarify where Core and the community are at in terms of short / long term solutions for a path forward, whilsts disrupting Moneros development as little as possible.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> short term > get ball rolling. devs need to eat

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> long term (2-4 weeks) setup infra for funds moving forward

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Hi

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I say, proposals first. Im nit worried about an empty wallet

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the Monerokon events team have went there own way for funding (and target a return to the CCS in spring~ depending on how things are resolved) - their latest example funding.monerokon.com

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i am multisig agnostic, doesnt exist :(

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 🔜

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Reminder that the MAGIC Monero Fund was unaffected by the CCS wallet theft. People can apply now. The main downside for applicants is that they have to KYC to receive money: monerofund.org/apply

<r​ucknium:monero.social> (Donors do not have to KYC. But if they have USA tax liabilities, then they can make the donation tax deductible.)

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i await MRL's discussions on multisig (mentioned here) libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20231108#c301310 ( i also know that jeffro256 is building something for the UX, rbrunners MMS and semi related tobtoht has offline signing via QR's on his todo list / has already made progress)

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Hi

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Community highlights:

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If the CCS will again use escrow, then the process to create and manage the wallet should be documented publicly. No more security through obscurity.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> soon

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> hello

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Giant Pink Elephant = general fund

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Hi Hinto

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs wasnt even 2600xmr. Nearly 2000 of that was never to be claimed

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> are we able to get a clarification of where binaryfate is regarding a short term solution operation 'the show must go on' - where a seperate ccs wallet is created and luigi is topped up to make payouts? or how the community would feel about this?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> or if not specifically that, whatever is on your mind

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I think bf is a no go after speaking with others

clarify please

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I vote plowsof sucks it up for now

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Plowsof Monero bank

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You hold _all_ the money. In a solo wallet. Need to fix that first

it might be better to have the general fund as a separate discussion

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> would you be willing to take on more responsibility temporarily by 1) creating a 'secure' ccs wallet (if so, consider Ruckniums points of disclosing where possible the measures taken to ensure that it is secure) and 2) send funds from this new wallet on to luigi

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Bothering you for payouts in every situation is less than ideal

what is community view on luigi1111 doing it instead of me?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> not solo. Worst opsec. Gone til thanksgiving. Nah

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> OPSEC.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> multisig signer? Ya

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> opsec can be fixed if the steps of creating/securing are agreed/disclosed right?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <b​inaryFate> what is community view on luigi1111 doing it instead of me?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> P l o w s o f

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not luigi

<c​trej:matrix.org> whatever we do, we need a short term solution to feed the devs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> ideas time

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> let's go

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Possible donor's thought process if luigi creates and manages the main CCS wallet: "They lost a lot of the money I sent to help improve Monero. Did they do anything to regain my trust? No. They are just doing the same thing."

luigi is fine by me, does anybody think that no lessons have ben learned?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> no

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Hes gone til thanksgiving, cant do forensics

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> no trust

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Eff that

<t​uxsudo:tux.pizza> Luigi shouldn't be allowed to handle anyone else's money ever again, lol. The setup for the wallet was extremely careless for someone in such a position

we have very few from core actually doing things

<r​brunner7:monero.social> On the other hand, we still don't have the slightest clue how luigi was targeted, right? Maybe that's reason enough to choose somebody else for the time being.

hi, sorry for delay

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Imagine if plowsof went on a haitus/vaca after, and left his pc behind.. again

ofrn, why would you be traveling with a secure pc?

rbrunner good point

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Usually when these things happen, the person responsible should simply leave their position, resign without being asked by the community. There are mistakes

<c​trej:matrix.org> stupid question, but cant we use a ledger or trezor while we figure out multisig proper?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Suggesting luigi, is pretty funny. @bf

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Why dont YOU suggest plowsof? Sus

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Hope nobody is on a boat rn

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof has one

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Yeah good point

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> luigi was OK handling a secondary wallet last time i checked in. and for the balance to be below a certain threshold at any time (but enough to handle 1~months of payouts)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <n​ioc> ofrn, why would you be traveling with a secure pc?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Secure?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We have servers running 16.04

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> a hardware wallet would have defeated the evil hackers

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The best short term solution may be direct funding to workers' XMR wallets. The CCS website would probably have to be coded a little different to scan for multiple view keys.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Core needs to use that GF to deal with infra.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> they dont need to be bank tellers

give the wallet to a trusted person but don't tell anyone so nobody wpuld know who to hack

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ok

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Project decoy

<c​trej:matrix.org> If someone from the community is skilled in hardening a PC (removing intelME etc.) I would highly appreciate a guide or a link collection; both for my own setup as well as hardening other community members setups

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> I think the point rbrunner makes is important. You don't know how Luigi has been targeted. Personally I feel good about Luigi, but when these things happen, the person responsible should leave

luigi can for example use a hardware wallet for a hot wallet to payout devs while the cold wallet that gets the actual funds are in someone else's hands

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Luigi disappeared forn3 months

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And didnt tell anyone their money was gone

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Til LONG after it was spent

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> tobtoht shared the "ultimate" guide on securing a laptop ceetee (it involves breaking it open and adding some wires) osresearch.net

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Fuck that

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Id sue the shit out of my employer

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i am in favour of a the show must go on / same shit different day as a temporary fix

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Had plowsof wasting community funds

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Thanks for sharing

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > i am in favour of a the show must go on / same shit different day as a temporary fix

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2-4 weeks. Max

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not same show for an eternity

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Ok, what will we do?

<c​trej:matrix.org> plowsof, would you be willing to use a HW wallet for payouts in the next 4 weeks?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Core will handle it :D.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> can we get to merging now?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > plowsof, would you be willing to use a HW wallet for payouts in the next 4 weeks?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No, but ill make him

<r​brunner7:monero.social> How much, give or take, would be those payouts in the next 4 weeks?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 0 right now

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the last payout(s) totalled about 600 xmr (that was a month~ ish)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Building as donations come in

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Potentially all of the proposals that are posted

it's more holding donations for the CCSs that will be approved

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> so the CCS has some serious throughput when people are achieving milestones and not letting things accumilate

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> were not talking about moving the 2000 xmr to this wallet. This is for current proposals and fast payouts.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> and yeah fkn right plowsof hides shit for 60days. Hes not that brave

so who creates the new wallet that gets all the funds from the proposals? that has to be solved too, not only the person who does the hot wallet payouts

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> on who holds funds long term: if not luigi again, then who is the question - there aren't many (if any) members that are trusted by the multiple parts of the community

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> temporarily i think plowsof is trusted by mostly everyone to hold funds - but this decision is still up to core

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Multisig

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Long term

<m-relay> <ofrnxmr:monero.social> Luigi disappeared forn3 months <= plz stop the gross misreprentations

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> it is also his job :D

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> New wallet = plowsof

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> BinaryFate through RINO or some multisig schema

<m-relay> <h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> temporarily i think plowsof is trusted by mostly everyone to hold funds - but this decision is still up to core <-- I disagree this is up to core

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <l​uigi1111> <m-relay> <ofrnxmr:monero.social> Luigi disappeared forn3 months <= plz stop the gross misreprentations

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> a bit more than 60 days?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> my pgp key is .. 6 days old and remains not compromised (these are my qualifications)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <b​inaryFate> <m-relay> <h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> temporarily i think plowsof is trusted by mostly everyone to hold funds - but this decision is still up to core <-- I disagree this is up to core

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I disagree. This is up to us

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Plowsof has been doing a good job and I think is s trusted by many people of the community

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> fluffypony:

I didn't disappear either.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The money did 😆

please ofrn

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Let's put Vik from cake wallet

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> im not trolling or joking.

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> without the intention to put plowsof under pressure, I think he is trustworthy for the new short term wallet

<r​brunner7:monero.social> One important question would be whether plowsof seems themselves able to take the responsibility. They could have doubts, which I would understand.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Core is da boss and i am subservient !

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> and long term multisig, if multisig is achievable in a couple month

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Community is your boss, plowsof

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> for the funds issue otherwise yeye im a slave to all

<r​brunner7:monero.social> So to share risk, still leaves the questions where *new* donations that come in will go?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i've only ever custodied around 23 xmr and i spent all

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Maybe for that binaryfate could use the GF security setup to create a new wallet?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> there is alot more that goes into it (the mouth begins to dry and heart pounds) if you truly consider holding a serious amount of funds for the community when i am neither anon , or have anything in place should i stop breathing

I'm not comfortable piggybacking on different wallet when we have different requirements on how frequently to access funds

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> +1 to bf

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I don't think plowsof wants to do it. plowsof, answer directly: do you want this responsibility?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Too many wallets already, big target

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> So who?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> he probably shouldnt _want_ to.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> the question is "will you"

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Strange reasoning

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i would like more responsibility, but my first rodeo should not be 'the CCS wallet'

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we're talking about a guy that can't delete spam comments/issues here

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> everyone _wants_ 2600xmr in their wallet.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> not plowsof. hes selfless

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> from the ccs gitlab

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 6 month terms repeatedly. Doesnt even claim his own milestones on time

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> has there been any other volunteers?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Lovera: Probably no one. Thinking like a game theorist: You need at least three groups/individuals to be satisfied with the arrangement. Donors, workers, and the escrower(s). There may be no arrangement that satisfies all three now. So go to direct funding with no escrow.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> And we need people to vet proposals, too. That's 4 groups.

<s​packle_xmr:matrix.org> Of the pending payouts, is it true that one or two represent the majority of the funds? If one or two payments could be done alongside filling a smaller CCS hotwallet it might be less stressful. Not sure how workable that would be.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > has there been any other volunteers?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Selsta :D

<c​trej:matrix.org> we gotta be careful not to overburden plowof, don't want him to break under the pressure

no

<r​ucknium:monero.social> You have an asymmetric information problem and a collective action problem. Solve the game!

<c​trej:matrix.org> therefor it should be strictly a temporary messure

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Jk. I dont think selsta can be made to do it

r​ucknium please do :)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Otherwise id have nominated selsta over Plowsof.

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> Rucknium: on direct funding: would this mean proposers would directly receive funds even before milestones are complete?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Scam central

<r​ucknium:monero.social> hinto: Yes.

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> i have a bad history of voting in favor of ccs's that do jack all after getting merged :)

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Even if ... that's no shorttime solution for the payouts that are due, no?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Payoute due = come from generalfund right now

<r​ucknium:monero.social> hinto: So nothing would change with the direct funding :)

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> plowsof: do you want to do this? if not, we need another volunteer to step forward to handle this. otherwise I'd argue binary fate is probably the most qualified

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the work in progress proposals are covered by the general fund / have already been paid out (if someone did not know)

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Ah, ok

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> plowsof: will you take on this responsibility? if not, we need another volunteer to step forward. Cringe

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> no i would rather gain responsibility in other areas first

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> my alt will be unbreakable when my 4 year plan is complete and world domination will be possible

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Is that to me, or x3nu?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> yes xenu/ofrnxmr

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> who is plowsof? can't even be trusted to delete spam comments from the ccs, now he custodies the CCS? lolool

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Cant even MAKE plowsof take the money.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i vote plowsof x2

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> lol!

<r​ucknium:monero.social> FYI, binaryFate is already escrowing the bounties.monero.social funds unless something has changed. That info was posted in GitHub a while ago.

<c​trej:matrix.org> plowsof got imposter syndrome

correct, I escrow the bounties wallet and perform payouts as directed to me (usually by plowsof)

<r​brunner7:monero.social> But here we usually speak about a considerably lower volume of XMR, right?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2 general funds, bounties, and has ~2000 of ccs refund money in safe keeping.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> also deploys getmonero. Too much for 1 person

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i would consider the bounties wallet , but 'i made 1 offline transaction last week' and again, pgp key is 6 days old

yes, bounties wallet is currently ~130xmr IIRC.

IMHO the dev proposals that need to go to funding are selsta, jeffro and also dangerousfreedom if theirs is now ready. That is a total of 301xmr without adjusting for any xmr price change

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the bounties wallet payouts range from 0.1 ... 0.3 xmr all the way up to 25~

there are others pending ofc

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Merge merge and merge

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2 weeks no merge = are we doing retroactive now?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Or can selsta stop working til we get our shit together

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Hypothetical

I continue to work normal and assume it would be retroactive

2 weeks reotriactive

<r​brunner7:monero.social> This all seems to be quite some search for the least bad solution.

<c​trej:matrix.org> it has to be retroactive

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The least bad solution

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> no problemo with retro for selsta

<r​brunner7:monero.social> No, I mean quite in general, to find a way to manage the CCS wallet(s)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Is for plowsof to do it for us.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thanks plowsof!

This might be controversial, but as a short term solution can we not use a custodial account at somewhere like Kraken? This will solve the immediate Opsec issue and also provide us some time to organise properly.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Dont worry, only 2-4 weeks to avoid a wrench attack

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> lmao

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> but laws and stuff

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we're talking about monopoly money here

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Interesting idea. But then who will manage that Kraken account.

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> opsec issue is 100% funneled into that accounts password now

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> -policy ftw

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> guarding a single password is definitely simpler though

<c​trej:matrix.org> kraken has 2fa with aegis otp, but its not that much better

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ok. Dont worry. "plowsof" wont do it.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But it will get done

there's a risk of Kraken locking the account due to large inflow / outflow of funds, probably get flagged by some algorithm.. plus we would still need a view key for the CCS wallet to see the status of funded proposals

hinto.janaiyo: sure, plus some 2FA security measures. It's not ideal, but maybe will allow us to develop a more hardened process for this, instead of just lumping it on someone that may well just become another target (providing the CCS was targeted).

selsta: maybe Localmonero might provide them, if we chose them?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I think our most immediate bottleneck is trustworthy persons that also are ready to take the responsibility

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Alex | LocalMonero | AgoraDesk: would have to comment on that

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No lol. U dont want it on localmonero lolol

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Im not even that crazy

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> doxxed actually makes the person more credible.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> oh

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Then maybe Majestic Bank :)

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> being doxxed*

let's try to find a solution that doesn't involve a third party service

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> plenty of doxxed scammers around here

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The biggest are doxxed on purpose as a way to give the appearance of trust

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> let's just foist this on doug.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Doug had like 10kxmr in his iphone cake wallet

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> hes doing fine

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> has*

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we have a public relations issue that Rucknium brought up "we did it wrong, we'll do it better in the short term and fix it with multisig in the future" which needs to be handled also

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> > doxxed actually makes the person more credible.

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> and also makes the person more prone to 5$ wrench attack!?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> with 4 mins left in the meeting, i think thrown enough ideas out there? plenty of food for thought for Core?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Now

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> selsta

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> merge

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Dangerousfreedom

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> merge

we can't merge without having a wallet?

:D

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Kaya

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> merge

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> merged into our hearts

adopt a dev

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> a wrench attack can happen regardless. I am not volunteering because I am an anon with an anime girl avatar. I wouldn't expect anyone to trust me lol

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > <s​elsta> we can't merge without having a wallet?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ill use your donation addresss :D

we have nothing in concrete but i feel a happy emotion inside, this is all that matters

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I wonder how we will look back to this all in a year or so ...

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Fondly

when multisig didnt exist,, simpler times

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it made monero a family again

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> orfn also add jeffro256 to mergelist

+1

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> +1

I don't think you should expect a magical solution from Core. In that context core and core members at most can be tools for the community to use, not much more.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Noted 👌

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Wise words

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> ok understood

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And ty, bf, for helping with ccs payouts since the hack

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> merge/retrofund the monero-core/seraphis devs

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> plowsof: community meeting every week temporarily? lots of things to sort out

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> plowsof is out of ccs too :D

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Merge plowsof

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> i forgot about that asshole

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> Just to be sure, should l ask for payment for the first milestone? Luigi

<b​tclovera:matrix.org> I'm driving

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Er ... and if we merge anything new for the CCS, say again where will the donations go? Do we have that already sorted out? I'm a bit confused now.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we have nothing sorted out rbrunner!

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Ok, now I feel better :)

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> i have no idea what is going on, but im blaming plowsof

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> +1 so we need another meeting

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We need another meeting anyway

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We need a solution _today_

meeting will not end until a solution is found

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof, get out here. Stop hiding

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (plowsof = temp solution)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> nexr meeting > long term solution

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> the most logical short term solution is to have a doxxed, long term xmr supporter hold the funds.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Minus the doxxed and long term

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Some of those ppl are _terrible_

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Thus, the empty set

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> binaryfate create another wallet and luigi to hold the secondary wallet, (with public relations efforts to ensure the secondary wallet is *more secure*) and we can just pretend it never happened while we work on multisig

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> im not ok with that

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And we need to change merge list

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> cuz at least 1 dev isnt either

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Doesnt want their money over there.

<c​trej:matrix.org> no kicking the issue down the road plowsof

<c​trej:matrix.org> chances are that if we used the "old" solutions as "temporary" new solutions they stick around longer then we want them to

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> i think binaryfate is the most logical temporary solution.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If we use luigi or BF, yep.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> if bF fucks up, we could lose a lot

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No reason for him to do bounties either

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And gf should be a multisig

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> yeah. he already holds the gf wallet lol

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> but there is no better idea

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> and if there is, im waiting

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> 2/9 multisig obviously

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> How is it a good idea to expose the gf

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And have bf be more active?

<c​trej:matrix.org> x3nu with a ledger would be a better idea then piling it onto bf

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> > The best short term solution may be direct funding to workers' XMR wallets.

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> if it's impossible to find someone, maybe we should do how rucknium suggests, but only until next meeting

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> > The best short term solution may be direct funding to workers' XMR wallets.

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> if it's impossible to find someone, maybe we should do how rucknium suggests, but only until next meeting

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> i would literally do it too but I don't expect you guys to trust me so I am not suggesting it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Direct funding = prefunding.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> if we did that, every proposal should be retroactive

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> that's why i think a longstanding member who has had experience holding funds is the best route forward temporarily

there are certainly some CCSs that can be directly funded but not all

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > i would literally do it too but I don't expect you guys to trust me so I am not suggesting it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> That's why > plowsof

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> he doesn't want to do it lol

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> precisely

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> and he shouldn't be expected to just because he admins chat rooms

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats why i suggest him over you

a single person would need a backup because of those buses

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> He doesnt admin chat rooms

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> some day, just have no experience of securely handling funds (and i feel hungry)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> scott and sgp do

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> five finger discounts are tempting

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof is mrls gopher, among other things

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Hes not supposed to deal with bounties, but he does

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> His job is ccs coordinator.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And cant coordinate when the $ is missing for 60days and "trusted" core members dont say anything

I would prefer over the CCS instead of direct funding

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> we risk turning our heroes into gollum

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Selsta would be rich rich with direct funding :D

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Yes, I think those direct funding ideas are not much more than a distraction. Easy as an idea to come up with, but utterly unworkable.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "please stop sending me monero!"

lol

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> i'd be tempted to take luigis yacht out for an extended vacation

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof, you're not very convincing

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> you dont even collect milestones

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I commented that already on Reddit: I see the CCS as an important cornerstone of our "culture", of our "identity". More than a simple tool to pay people.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> training, experience, back up plans incase of death are not in place for myself to be a serious contender

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> telling people smarter than me they don't deserver 15$ an hour is something i need in my life

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> god we are boned

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> see you all next week

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> k. See yas next week

thank you all for attending! can end it here

thanks

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ill go see plowsof with a wrench today, and try to fix him

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (not a threat)

lol

the passphrase is hunter2 the trezor is right there , let me sync it for you

would you like a coffee while you wait

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> must have a nut or bolt loose

<s​needlewoods_xmr:matrix.org> alright, thanks everyone and especially plowsof

<h​into.janaiyo:matrix.org> +1 direct funding would require effort to implement - CCS as is would be preferred

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> plowsof just needs to keep his act up a little longer and he can a lot of money

the 4 year plan

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> 👀

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> ah i accidentally a word. wahtever

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Missed*

<i​ntr:envs.net> don't you hate it when people don't finish their

<n​aphtha:kyun.host> finish their what

<n​aphtha:kyun.host> 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> So I missed the meeting completely, just read the backlog.

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> Plowsof doesn’t want to take the responsibility for all that community money and I think no one should. Too much money that is not your own, that’s scary (to me at least).

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> Can’t we split this burden in, let’s say, three wallets managed by three people. A walletholder work-group so to speak. Less money in one wallet, maybe is doable for plowsof than (then? No native here).

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> We need three people which might be a problem and we need to talk about how to handle funds.

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> Knowledgeable people from the community can make guidelines stating how to store and protect the funds, how to do payments is a safe way, etc., which can be used by the walletholders. A governance document.

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> When multisig is ready, things can change.

<-​coffeeplease-:matrix.org> I just had a beer, so if this is all nonsence, please blame in on that.

<a​js_:matrix.org> we need your support to make monerokon 2024 happen - please retweet x.com/MoneroKon/status/1723403841012445526?s=20

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> I just listened on the MoneroTalk somebody mentioning a Rust rewrite of Monero

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Is that true? If so, where can I find more about it

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Never mind, just found out: CUPRATE is called

<a​js_:matrix.org> reddit mod - need approval for my post - np.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/17t…ested_help_fund_nonprofit_monerokon

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> cuprate & monero-serai for those interested in the monero-rust subject

<b​oog900:monero.social> Cuprates github: github.com/Cuprate/cuprate

<b​oog900:monero.social> And my current CCS:

<b​oog900:monero.social> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/405

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Very cool

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Just retweeted and donated.

<a​js_:matrix.org> thanks for the support!

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> Rucknium: on direct funding: would this mean proposers would directly receive funds even before milestones are complete? >>> I don't think this is true. I can imagine a pledge system that still revolves around milestones needing completion before payout. it just requires more activity on the part of the donors - they need to actually track the project, or pay attention to emails t<clipped messa

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> hat say "hey its time to pay"

<a​js_:matrix.org> one thing i was thinking about is if we are successful funding nonprofit, i was thinking about having full-time "resident researchers" working on monero code

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> or piggybacking on coffeeplease, perhaps their should be a handful to a dozen or something escrow volunteers for the CCS. The CCS proposer would also propose their escrow person. this way there's not one person with the whole wallet.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i wouldn't want to escrow the entire CCS fund. But to step in and hold some monero for a single CCS? i'd consider that

<r​ucknium:monero.social> gingeropolous: That could work. Usually, the problem with that model would be donors unwilling to pay after delivery. But AFAIK the CCS funding success rate is 100%. You don't necessarily need reminder emails. Just put all the milestone funding on the CCS "funding required" page like now.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> for the direct model?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yes.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> yeah. I mean, the bitch of it would be those CCS's that have like 100+ donors sending <1 xmr, but that is what it is. From my original posting of the idea, i think we can also design this to have +100% funding, so there's a built in expectation that some n% will forget or not pay

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> like, you'll have a primary bunch of funders, and then a second cohort that are like insurance in case the primaries fail

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> the CCS recipient would then have to share their viewkey so the CCS webpage can show the funders sending in their monteros

<r​ucknium:monero.social> IMHO, cryptocurrencies are supposed to remove middlemen, so something more direct makes sense. And no one really wants to be a middleman here anyway.

<w​ormer_8:matrix.org> hello fellow internet people, lets say some friend of me wants to switch his or her botnet from mining with pools to mining with p2pool, how would he or her do this without running p2pool nodes etc?

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> aye Rucknium

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> wormer_8: dude just run the nodes

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> You has to say hypothetical

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Not friend

Your hypothetical friend should hypothetically run xmrig-proxy and his totally legit miners should connect to it with TLS enabled. Then your node IP will be unknowm to miners.

Of course proxy should run on a separate hosting provider

SWIM said thanks sech1

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Do i get bounty?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> ^ [RavFX](<matrix.to/#/@gfdshygti53:monero.social>)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So the tldr with meeting…We fix plowsof with wrench and he holds funds?

everyone gets one CCS that they are responsible for

which one do you want bob dan

decentralize

*CCS proposal

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> The pink one

after seeing kayaba's monerokon presentation I assume that is the FCMP one

nice that you are taking on the big one bob

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> If luke keeps wearing the dress then sure

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Also no mention of forensic investigation? Or improving core infrastructure…

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> the new secretary can not control the ccs wallet and pay himself, i like that people are trusting of me but its a step backwards rather than sideways (temp solution) and forward (multisig bananza)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Easier to blame secretary

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Fired!

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I walk of with money

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> and then when i don't get rehired, i will suddenly die and the wallet is gone

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Not if you have will and give all to me

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> As far as "removing ME", if you're system don't have a jumper to turn it off, then you have three options

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> * Arm yourself with an eeprom programmer and proper soldering skill

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Remove BIOS chip

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Run dump ROM image

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Run ME Cleaner on the rom

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Flash the ROM with the cleaned image

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Resolder BIOS chip.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> * Buy a system that don't have me disabled (only laptops afaik : Nitrokey, NovaCustom, Purism, Star Labs, System76)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> * Buy a system with a ME disabling jumper (I don't know other system that have that except the one I own, Specifically the Lenovo Thinkcenter M720q and M70q, fast googling also told me that M920 and M92 unit also have that jumper, maybe all the Lenovo Thinkcenter Tiny have them)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> If you're system don't have a jumper to disable ME, then you HAVE to desolder the ROM to dump and patch it up for the simple reason that you don't have the permission to flash something that is not signed. If you have a ME dis jumper then you can disable ME then patch the rom partitions permissions to give yourself write access and then replace the BIOS with coreboot or something <clipped message

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> else if it's supported, without soldering hardware&skills.

bob wills take too long to go thru probate, you want a trust

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> This is why we need. #monero-privsec

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> BTW, The Lenovo Thinkcenter Tiny are extremely capable (if you are not gaming). Can find unit with 8gen+ CPU on the cheap on ebay. Way less expensive than buying a new laptop imo. Mine came with a 10500T (upgraded to 10900), 8GB of RAM (Upgraded to 64GB) and a 128GB Nvme drive (Upgraded to 2TB + Sata SSD 2TB too)

trusts are also not public like wills

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> But no one can contest cause plowsof is anon

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> BTW, The Lenovo Thinkcenter Tiny are extremely capable (if you are not gaming). Can find unit with 8gen+ CPU on the cheap on ebay. Way less expensive than buying a new laptop imo. Mine came with a 10500T (upgraded to 10900), 8GB of RAM (Upgraded to 64GB) and a 128GB Nvme drive (Upgraded to 2TB + Sata SSD 2TB too)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> And in bonus they don't take space, you can get a VESA bracket and mount it behind you're screen

you upgraded the cpu on your laptop?

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> someone of my likeness has already appeared on YT and i make no attempt to remain anon

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> nioc: The Thinkcenter is not a laptop, it's a 1L formfactor tiny PC.

ah

<c​trej:matrix.org> RavFX @gfdshygti53:monero.social: got the required HW skills, will have a closer read later. Thanks!

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Look for the coreboot stuff, they have howto including for the ME cleaning.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> I will ask google

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Or Libreboot, I think it forked from coreboot

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> As far as "removing ME", if you're system don't have a jumper to turn it off, then you have three options

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Arm yourself with an eeprom programmer and proper soldering skill

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Remove BIOS chip

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Run dump ROM image

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Run ME Cleaner on the rom

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Flash the ROM with the cleaned image

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Resolder BIOS chip.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Buy a system that have me disabled (only laptops afaik : Nitrokey, NovaCustom, Purism, Star Labs, System76)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Buy a system with a ME disabling jumper (I don't know other system that have that except the one I own, Specifically the Lenovo Thinkcenter M720q and M70q, fast googling also told me that M920 and M92 unit also have that jumper, maybe all the Lenovo Thinkcenter Tiny have them)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> If you're system don't have a jumper to disable ME, then you HAVE to desolder the ROM to dump and patch it up for the simple reason that you don't have the permission to flash something that is not signed. If you have a ME dis jumper then you can disable ME then patch the rom partitions permissions to give yourself write access and then replace the BIOS with coreboot or something <clipped message

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> else if it's supported, without soldering hardware&skills.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> As far as "removing ME", if you're system don't have a jumper to turn it off, then you have three options

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Arm yourself with an eeprom programmer and proper soldering skill

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Remove BIOS chip

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Run dump ROM image

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Run ME Cleaner on the rom

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Flash the ROM with the cleaned image

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Resolder BIOS chip.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Buy a system that have ME disabled (only laptops afaik : Nitrokey, NovaCustom, Purism, Star Labs, System76)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> - Buy a system with a ME disabling jumper (I don't know other system that have that except the one I own, Specifically the Lenovo Thinkcenter M720q and M70q, fast googling also told me that M920 and M92 unit also have that jumper, maybe all the Lenovo Thinkcenter Tiny have them)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> If you're system don't have a jumper to disable ME, then you HAVE to desolder the ROM to dump and patch it up for the simple reason that you don't have the permission to flash something that is not signed. If you have a ME dis jumper then you can disable ME then patch the rom partitions permissions to give yourself write access and then replace the BIOS with coreboot or something <clipped message

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> else if it's supported, without soldering hardware&skills.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yeah they have a list of models to

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> And for ME cleaner : github.com/corna/me_cleaner

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> You can't remove ME completly since 2006 as it's needed to boot, but it remove most of it.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> It can shrink ME image to 128KB (down from 4-8MB)

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> "However, while Intel ME can't be turned off completely, it is still possible to modify its firmware up to a point where Intel ME is active only during the boot process, effectively disabling it during the normal operation, which is what me_cleaner tries to accomplish."

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> me_cleaner last update is from 2018...

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> For more support, check the pull requests.

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> Lovera yes you will be paid for your completed milestone / and the rest (if you where wondering)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> meeting finished?

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> me\_cleaner last update is from 2018...

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> For more support, check the pull requests.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Also triple check if you're system have Boot guard enabled, that one is going to mess with you hard if you want to keep the original ROM and just neuter ME.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No sir

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not til devs eat