<s​gp:magicgrants.org> The MAGIC Grants board is hosting a live Q&A in the Monero Telegram group this Thursday at 1p ET to discuss the MAGIC Monero Fund and the upcoming election. We hope to see you there!

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> election? we have elections

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> can I vote?

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> I vote for ofrn

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Yest

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: for 2024

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Jobs and growth

but I don't want a job

wut u tryin 2 do?

<s​gp:magicgrants.org> You could vote for him if he was running!

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> For president

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Write in ballot

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> What are promising but wont deliver

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Monero to $1mill?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> What are you promising but wont deliver

<k​owalabearhugs-:matrix.org> Voter applications and committee candidate announcements are now available for the MAGIC Monero Fund committee election in January 2024 , reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/18bev7…pplications_and_committee_candidate

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > What are you promising but wont deliver 

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Quiet ofrnxmr

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Your buddy midi is working on that one 😉

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Midi is voting for me?

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> For a perma-ban, yes, it seems so.

<p​olar9669:matrix.org> Getmonero.org SSL cert has expired

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> nooooooooooooooooooo

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> And some dude are paid to maintain the website, right?

<a​riyaro:matrix.org> what next then?

<a​riyaro:matrix.org> who's maintaining the site?

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Some dude 😆

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> On holidays bbs

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Did the jet fund go too?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> hmm

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> rug has been officially pulled

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Carpet, not rug.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> red carpet ?

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Carpetbagger.

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> was stuck in jet door

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> so it took it too

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Damn, it's slow `Synced 4504 blocks in 33.9 minutes (2.216 blocks per second)`

<o​cean:matrix.thisisjoes.site> someone already opened issue on github

Previously we depended on fluffypony to sift through his spam email folder for the getmonero cert expiry emails

Who do we blame now then :(

how about moving into the modern era - set up with letsencrypt or something similar so it refreshes automatically?

The last time it happened.. didnt one domain still have valid certs selsta? (With/without www?) . Inge after the previous expiry and the uproar this caused it should definitely be set up to auto renew (unless there is some blocker im not aware of).

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> dunno not hard tho

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> 2 years ago is when i remember it happening reddit.com/r/xmrtrader/comments/rj2…ce=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> coincidentally, 18th december

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> sus

<p​lowsof:matrix.org> reported by cryptogrampy and fixed quickly libera.monerologs.net/monero-site/20211218#c58594

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Inge: You really don't want such an automatism running on a server as sensitive as that. Any ol' automatic task reaching out to the Internet at large to get new certs and installing them? What can possibly go wrong :)

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> nothing

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> plowsof the archivooor!

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Plowsof.archive

plowsof: web.getmonero.org works, getmonero.org does not

www. is the CDN, web. is the server itself

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Blame the fluffy?

m-relay: Fair point. You could however still set it up so that some other boxen could refresh the certs, and if you wish, introduce a manual verification step before the sensitive server picks them up. Along with a notification to someone ... instead of having certs that expire

<p​olar9669:matrix.org> It is cdn

<p​olar9669:matrix.org> But isn’t he supposed to be gone away ? Or did he just pull the plug lol

<d​atingwolf1:matrix.org> Paradise for sin and Lust

<d​atingwolf1:matrix.org> t.afago.pro/GXPSFZ

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nah and nah

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But when in doubt, blame plowsof

<v​ikrants:monero.social> Hey Europeans! You can now buy up to 1000 Euro worth of XMR and other crypto with no KYC using bank/wire transfer in the new Cake Wallet and MoneroCom wallet!

nice

<4​rkal:monero.social> reddit.com/r/Monero/s/ULuG0dDFEp

<4​rkal:monero.social> Slight issue lmao

<4​rkal:monero.social> SSL cert for www.getmonero.org has expired

know issue and is currently being dealt with

<h​enlofwendsuwuowo:matrix.org> Henlo

<h​enlofwendsuwuowo:matrix.org> I have a business that accepts monero, are there any places where I could advertise it?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> NO WAY!!!

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> we should put up a PSA on getmonero.org blog

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Ssl incident

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Oops

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> He tripped over the plug

I didnt see that there was an update to rhe forensics investigation into the ccs wallet, but 123bob123 dod and shared the update in -dev

What would be of us without Bob!

Fwd: monero-project/meta #923

Did* bob*

Stnby reported that thenccs' gitlab instance needed to be updated, which was done today

<e​dge7:matrix.org> monerica.com/submit

<e​dge7:matrix.org> cryptwerk.com/publish

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Community sys admin ftw

good work community

<h​enlofwendsuwuowo:matrix.org> Many thanks

<h​enlofwendsuwuowo:matrix.org> Is there any other currency like monero?

<h​enlofwendsuwuowo:matrix.org> Or is it one of a kind

<h​enlofwendsuwuowo:matrix.org> This stuff is amazing

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> We are GOAT

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> when is the monero halving

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Good question

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> The real question is: has there ever been a monero halving?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Answer: no

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Has there ever been a monero doubling?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Answer: yes!

<r​imugu:unredacted.org> My plan for next year (could not implemented because I just thought of it). I will gift my nephews and god-sons and god-daughters, at lest those that are 18 or older, Monero. A paper with all the seed words, and a couple URLs (maybe QR for those URLs) that lead to explanations of what is Monero and how to use it. Stimulate its use and broadening the user base.

My experience with gifting people cryptocurrency is that they either lose it, delete it, forget the password, or don't write down their seed and then change phones/laptops.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/meDthAxtNQjJIwvAPOkBLuNJ

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> there is a limit supply of XMR so how does this thing say its 0.6XMR forever

the supply is limited to whatever the current supply is plus 0.6xmr every 2 minutes from current

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> So XMR does not have a hard cap supply?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Nope

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> And that's what will save it from implosion 10-20 years from now

no which is a good thing because people lose stuff :)

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Unlike BTC, which will die in flames (unless they hardfork to add a tail emission like Monero has)

and there will be no need for a fee market

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> makes sense. But I think BTC will be functioning on transaction fees

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> It won't. I did the math

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> what does the math say

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> would it be too expensive per transaction?

I thought of using btc yesterday but didn't because of the fees lol

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> same I sold 100% of my btc when I saw the fees

a bank wire would have been cheaper

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> currently XMR is my only crypto + seed sales in shitcoin I will sell when they pump

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> tldr: unless people are willing to pay 50 $/tx in fees on average and they make sure that all btc blocks are full, the mining incentive for btc will drop below the current value

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> I wouldnt be suprised if BTC maxis run their miners for free or something

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> is it expensive?

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> El Salvador probably will keep their miners running if they have any since its legal tender over there

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Bitcoin pays its mining network ~600 $/second right now. Once the base reward becomes too small (around epoch 10-15), most of that will have to come from tx fees

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> That's around 19 billion dollars, per year

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> So unless you're Elon Musk looking for the next brilliant investment, you can't afford to run the entire Bitcoin network out of your own pocket

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> how many transactions are done per 600$?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> (And even if you were: would you really *trust* a network that's in the pocket of a single entity?)

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> 50 $/tx would have to be the average fee for a small tx (2-input 2-output)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But but

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> they also want price to go up

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> so if your tx is twice as big (in bytes), you'd have to pay 100$

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> Bitcoin does 7 transaction per second and the network pays 600$ per second to miners?

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> miners are paid 600$ for 7 transactions?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 6.25btc/10min

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> + tx fees

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> orion_midast right now, yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> After halvinf, they get 3.125 btc

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> + tx fees

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> well, no

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Unless the blocks are full

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> thats fucking wild.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> do we have any stat showing correlation between how much fees per transaction need to be paid as bitcoin halving happens?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Btc does a max of ~600k tx/day

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> do users pay more in fees each halving?

<r​imugu:unredacted.org> That is very possible. I plan to include info on how to use it. And if they are so careless. I will have the seed for and check in some months. I really hope young people will have some drive.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats not enough for a major city

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > do users pay more in fees each halving?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Miners have to get paid.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> Monero deserves to be the #1 crypto in the market, not Bitcoin. I'll never understand how it is that Monero is not #1

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If youre a miner, and making 300k/mth, are you going to accept a 150k decrease?

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> people just want to please regulators

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> people lost the vision they are just here for money now

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> If the BTC price doubles then there is no decrase no?

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> If the BTC price doubles then there is no decrease no?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If it doubled, its worse

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Price doubles, miner profit increases

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Then more people stsrt mining OR minibg operations expand

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> economics 101

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Increasing network difficulty, until it balances out

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> After halving, the money has to come from somwhere

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Miners don't set the tx fee. User demand sets the tx fee. If demand is high, the fee will be high. It's an auction for block space. There is no direct relationship between tx fee and the block reward subsidy.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> So we can estimate BTC transaction to be 80$ per transaction. Unless lightning network or whatever its called steps up

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And l.. eventually the halving becomes 0

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The money doesn't have to come from anywhere. The money can just decrease

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Miners have to earn an incone

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And that income has to come from tx fees

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Miners can just drop out. Then the difficulty adjustment algorithm reduces the difficulty, like you said.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> then mining will cost less

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Lightning cannot compensate for this. No layer 2 can help solve this problem. It's a layer 1 problem

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> hence the fee will drop in price

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> true that

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> the direct relationship is that with no block reward, the money has to come from somewhere

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> If layer 1 fails, all layers above it die with it

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If the amount of honest hashpower gets too low because the total block reward is low, BTC can be vulnerable to a 51% attack by malicious miners.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> bcurrently I saw stuff about how 2 pools control 50% of BTC hash power

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 90% of hashpowrr is owned by 0.1% of miners

<r​ucknium:monero.social> BTC without tail emission is pick your poison: Either fees are too high for average humans or the block reward is too low and the network is insecure.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Both outcomes are bad.

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> ^ and if we assume that the average tx fee will drop to 10 $/tx, that means that the future nethash will be 5x smaller than it is today

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> we need to do a simulation see how it would go

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> I dont want to wait 10 years to see

<r​ucknium:monero.social> What do you mean by "simulation"?

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> How do BTC maxis rationalize this though

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> And keep in mind that that's assuming that *the blocks are always full*. If the L1 usage drops to the point where blocks aren't full, then the average tx fee will have to become even higher

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> they probably have their own thoughts about it

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> like some sort of run test on what would happen

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Not much to simulate, it's just math

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/izcdvtSZhzZczwiGYhRMdRzJ

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> nitter.net/BawdyAnarchist_/status/1736377958162739513

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Rucknium:

<r​ucknium:monero.social> A few bitcoiners do support a bitcoin tail emission. Peter Todd suggests a "tax" on spending old bitcoin that would pay for mining security.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> have you seen that?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Aw hell, axis labels don't show up with a dark background

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/TIXmbKcCXqMuFDsbinjIgumc

<r​ucknium:monero.social> An NBER paper 👀

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/NBAkVEBQgVbGtGSVykLqIWSE

<r​ucknium:monero.social> orion_midast: Some math in here: Budish, E. (2022). "The economic limits of bitcoin and anonymous, decentralized trust on the blockchain. " moneroresearch.info/index.php?actio…n=resource_RESOURCEVIEW_CORE&id=101

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> And this ^ is what would *need* to happen to btc's mcap in order to maintain the current security budget. Necessary condition

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Endor

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Screenshot

<r​ucknium:monero.social> ofrnxmr: Yes, I saw that paper a while ago, but I just skimmed it for the tx details, not the mining info. I may look closer.

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> not sure what help needed

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I was saying that you are (were?) active on site

<r​ucknium:monero.social> There's an old paper on Lightning Network centralization with new updated data: sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596123002070

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "Alarmingly, over the past two years, the network’s centrality has surged, with the inequality, as gauged by the Gini index, rising by over 15 uptick of approximately 5 in. This research not only uncovers critical insights into the Lightning Network’s structural dynamics but also raises the question about strategies and policies that ensure its sustained decentralization in th<clipped message>

<r​ucknium:monero.social> e face of evolving challenges such as security vulnerabilities, potential monopolistic tendencies, liquidity bottlenecks, the risk of transaction censorship and many more."

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> does that mean 0.1% of miners can fuck up the chain?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> yep, even less than that

<h​ardenedsteel:monero.social> oh yes i can help.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Theoretically, they could perform, a 51% attack. But they would have to coordinate to do that.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> like this tweet so we can get Monero on Tangem hardware wallet, they have a team that checks their socials for cryptos most wanted and add them depending on demand: twitter.com/Goatskey/status/1736942210652717561

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I see a lot shilling scams.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> wtf is "Conste11ation" and "moonbeam", HBAR, RXD 😂

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> * And many more

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> or wtf is shibarum

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Also lol

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> these dog coins are getting out of hand

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> indeed

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> Ive been harassing them on discord, twitter and customer support to add xmr

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> we gotta step up

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> Their hardware wallet is cheaper than both ledger and trezor + they are open source and use a different technology. its super interesting. I am buying one as soon as they add monero

<r​ucknium:monero.social> orion_midast: That hardware wallet does not have a screen. You cannot confirm visually that you are signing the tx you intended.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> its on your phone

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Plus, the computation power of it looks low. Maybe it couldn't sign a Monero tx.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Your phone can be compromised.

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> it has a chip inside the card similar to credit card chips, the chip is used to confirm transaction and the phone cant sign anything as long as the card isnt scanned for transaction

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> So your phone gets compromised => Your hardware wallet becomes pointless

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> im not an expert but im sure they thought of that probably, their code is open source

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> I hack your phone, load a malicious version of the app that shows you the tx you want but actually tells the wallet to sign a tx that sends me all your money. RIP

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> ill ask them about this

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> how do I formulate it? That hardware wallet does not have a screen. You cannot confirm visually that you are signing the tx you intended. So if your phone gets compromised the user can be prompted to sign a malicious transaction

<o​rion_midast:matrix.org> that sums it up

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Sort of. I'd expect a reply like "well duh, don't sign any transaction that you don't expect"

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> A better way to put it is that the user has no idea if the tx shown on screen actually corresponds to the tx getting signed by the wallet

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Because the only screen/output is on your phone (which is vulnerable)