<z​adocta:matrix.org> So what's the progress on haveno ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its live?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if you have a github account, you can download it from here github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/actions/runs/9862906825

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> without github account, from here github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases but it doesn't have all the new seednodes: github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> blog.nihilism.network/servers/haveno-client-f2f/index.html u can try it on mainned currently, using haveno reto

<1​0tus:monero.social> Is this working only with cash ?

<1​0tus:monero.social> Good job btw

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> theres quite a few payment options actually

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ra.network/InZgVxWbyVUzcXXKlZfHTfWZ

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> here are the current offers you can take up if u want to purchase xmr currently

<1​0tus:monero.social> Yeah ok, maybe it could be mentioned in the beginning

<1​0tus:monero.social> Because at my reading since the first example only mention cash, it make the wrong thoughts of this is only when you wanna exchange monero with cash

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> go all the way down, i made other tutorials to showcase other payment methods

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> sepa bank transfers for the EU are a popular option too

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> or cash by mail is also populr

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> or cash by mail is also popular

<1​0tus:monero.social> Looks a lot like bisq, I guess you got the inspiration from their source code

<1​0tus:monero.social> But you did a good job really, this was needed

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> haveno was forked from bisq :)

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> was forked because bisq revolves around bitcoin, not monero

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> in there you can do direct fiat -> xmr transactions, P2P

<1​0tus:monero.social> Yeah I just suggest this, because for some person they might not read all the way down and have a quick wrong conclusion about the software than might make then look for something else

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> yea i'll mention it

<1​0tus:monero.social> I wonder if a third party could be used in between the non initiated persons and the persons who wanna sells their monero

<1​0tus:monero.social> A third party who's job is to make the trade on haveno for exemple

<1​0tus:monero.social> Therefore the non initiated users could buy directly on the platform their monero without having the burden of installing a software and learn how to use it

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> theres risks to that actually

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> i know localmonero didnt allow it when they were still around

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thats custodial

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and custodial is very risky

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you don't store your monero with someone else? then you shouldn't buy it through a custodian either.

<1​0tus:monero.social> Is it possible to limit those risks ?

<1​0tus:monero.social> Where are the risks in this ? Is it the security and the potential attack vector or more about the potential abuse and scams?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> no

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the thing limiting risk is people using haveno

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if you put a middleman in there, you wouldnt need to use haveno at all if you trust someone to handle your coins

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if you put a middleman in there, you wouldnt need to use haveno at all if you trust someone else to handle your coins without any protections whatsoever

<1​0tus:monero.social> Well that way with haveno it also possible for the middleman to not use KYC and being able to trade monero directly without having to exchange other cryptocurrencys before exchanging monero, which could reduce the work involved and the overall cost

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> what

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> most offers on haveno dont have kyc

<1​0tus:monero.social> Yes this is what I meaned

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so why do you need a middleman for anything

<1​0tus:monero.social> Is just about the complexity off using the software for a lot of people I guess

<1​0tus:monero.social> And when you wanna share this way of exchange, I think many people would be discouraged to use it if they have to undergo such a relatively complex process to actually get the currency

<1​0tus:monero.social> It depends what are the goal of monero also

<1​0tus:monero.social> If the goal is to increase its use and have a divers category of person to use it

<1​0tus:monero.social> Increasing and facilitate the access would be kind of beneficial I think

<1​0tus:monero.social> The middleman could do the trade on haveno for the non initated users

<1​0tus:monero.social> Or maybe the use of monero is simply reserved for person's willing to learn those skills

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> here's an other example:

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> you want to rent a server to do sketchy stuff but the cloud provider only accepts bank transfers, not your monero

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> you offer to sell monero for a bank transfer to someone, and you give them the cloud provider's bank transfer details

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> that someone recieves monero in exchange for the bank transfer to the third party, and you get your server, as planned

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> that someone puts themselves at risk because it is THEIR banking details which get associated to what YOU do on the server

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> i think thats the main reason third party payments werent allowed back on localmonero

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> i think thats the main reason third party payments werent allowed back on localmonero, aside from clear scam attempts

<1​0tus:monero.social> Offshore banking ? 😄

<1​0tus:monero.social> BTW, since you mentioned this example

<1​0tus:monero.social> Make me think how those server providers such as 1984, njala and other mentioned in monerica are actually managing this

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if you cant run a simple program then your best bet will be buying LTC on a CEX and swapping it within cakewallet

<1​0tus:monero.social> Yeah that might be the best current approach

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the haveno ui is a bit confusing but if you have any experience with desktop software at all, it should be simple enough

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> yea non-kyc providers (see services tab on kycnot.me btw) are willing to put up with some level of abuse for people's privacy / anonymity, props to them

<1​0tus:monero.social> Some people are even not using a desktop

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah and those will have to go via the cake route

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> hell, people are really damn tech-illiterate nowadays

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> people on r/darknet are mostly recommending swapping through cake even though they add quite a steep fee to every excahnge

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you could get the same exact service ~2.5% cheaper by just going to trocador.app yourself

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but even that is too much to ask from some people

<1​0tus:monero.social> Some are not willing to spend additional time to shift currency's to buy or spend on anything

<1​0tus:monero.social> They like fast and efficiency and they where used to this all their life most of them

<1​0tus:monero.social> But you are right

<1​0tus:monero.social> I think in that case the cake rout is then the current most valuable approach

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> noone is willing to use any new technology without first being explained clearly why they should use it

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> it's a lack of education when you see people prefering centralised exchanges above decentralised exchanges

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so id say accommodating everyone simply doesnt work. haveno could have a dead-simple mobile app and people would still be like

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/pxItYgQHoHMofXfrDDNtrnzO

<1​0tus:monero.social> Agree

<1​0tus:monero.social> Still needs the effort to listen about it

<1​0tus:monero.social> If they get not tired from the beginning of the explanation

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> haveno is the most efficient and quickest method to buy xmr

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at least when there are the right kind of offers currently available, which should only get better with more users

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> you cant do anything about the people that think they know everything anyway lol

<1​0tus:monero.social> Btw having it in a mobile app would be a great upgrade in that aspect also

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it's worse when they go "i dont know anything so i cant do that"

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> yea the haveno mobile app is being worked on

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yesterday there was a -10% sepa instant offer

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> yes first you have to explain why they need something, then you explain how they can get there(the whole point of my blog for instance), then they need to be willing to walk the path yknow

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that sounds very damn efficient to me. if the trader is responsive, you could have your XMR in your wallet within ~20 minutes

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> kraken takes longer than that

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and it doesnt let you buy 10% below market

<1​0tus:monero.social> A lot of them will even be overwhelmed of complexity having to undergo KYC on mainstream platform exchanges

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> i prefer when people logically and morally refuse to undergo KYC procedures, rather than being overwhelmed by their complexity lol

<1​0tus:monero.social> That's a very solid point you got there

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i wanted to make a bank account and the kyc video chat straight up didnt load 💀

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i went to a different bank

<1​0tus:monero.social> That argument would be a very solid marketing argument for haveno

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah but you gotta act fast haha

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> imo the main point of haveno is : direct fiat -> xmr trades, without any KYC and without any centralised exchange platform

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that offer was only there for like 10 minutes. i was still debating on taking it when it was taken by someone else

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> imo the main point of haveno is : P2P direct fiat -> xmr trades, without any KYC and without any centralised exchange platform

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> jup

<f​reckledsquid:matrix.org> Hello everybody

<f​reckledsquid:matrix.org> Nihilist [blog.nihilism.network]

<f​reckledsquid:matrix.org> Much obliged for the guide, going to install haveno later today, walkthrough was appreciated

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> hello, on first startup, dont interrupt it even if it takes 20 minutes

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> it only took a minute or two for me but for some it takes ~15

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> has something to do with the Tor setup

<f​reckledsquid:matrix.org> ok, will do

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> From our experience most abuse come from people using stolen paypal / credit card. Not even crypto.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> We had to setup kyc for PayPal in some case due to that.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> yea i meant, abuse from bad server usage

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> like they rent a server to do some illegal stuff, not cool for the cloud providers / resellers

<r​ucknium:monero.social> > Merchants must be wary of their customers, hassling them for more information than they would otherwise need. A certain percentage of fraud is accepted as unavoidable. These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments over a communications channel without a trusted party. What is needed is an elect<clipped message>

<r​ucknium:monero.social> ronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust, allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> First page of the bitcoin white paper :)

<n​ononynous:monero.social> People have to use cash with unknowns people

<n​ononynous:monero.social> Oh it was about abuse on nokyc things

<n​ononynous:monero.social> Theres as much abuse on kycd systems

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> I think there is more abuse for no kyc provider due to the anonymity protection.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> I mean that too :p

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Especially for spam. Lot of paypal.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> If people use stolen paypal they 100% gonna use the server for bad stuff.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Crypto is still a fraction of the population. So wannabe criminal have an easier time getting stolen paypal for like 10$.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> That they can just use everywhere.