<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> if monero heads who have been around (say minimum ... 7 years) could do something differently, what would it be?

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> or have an idea of what went right or wrong at certain points?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They didn't elect me as king and ceo, and fluffy left (what went wrong)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> what went right: bringing in the noethers, creating mrl, community

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> what went left: fluffy getting arrested and core basically abandoning ship

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The latter made monero much more decentralized w/o making it mob-rule

so ofrn has been here a minimum of 7 years?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I've been around for much longer than monero

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Not many 7 year olds in this chat seemed like an invitation for anyone to answer

i'm about 6 years as a user

that said, i don't think that number is representative. it's more like 4 years.

<i​mprevisto:matrix.org> i just made up a number to try to get a good slice of history

<s​pirobel:kernal.eu> I spent my Saturday morning to lighten the load on plowsof shoulders a bit. monero-project/meta #1193#issuecomment-2832012597

Meeting in 5hrs37 mins

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> We should have done the things we did right with more conviction, less bureaucracy, and more resources (people and moneros).

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> And there is also a thought that we should have maintained/urged/sustained greater anonymity for key people (Devs, Researchers, Maintainers) in the community.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> And we also should have ensured we maintained strong DefCon links (if possible). Not sure what happened there.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 🤣

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Look at the defcon ccs' and you'll see what happened, plain as day

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> And we also should have ensured that the mob didn't purposely ostracise positive initiatives, creating negative environments along the way, just because they couldn't see their tangible benefit/purpose. Building a network is about a lot more than code/protocol.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Sure sure.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Ask _all the participants_ of _all the defcons_, the value the community got from it, and the wider exposer we created amongst the hacking community, and you'll understand the wider benefit.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Are you blind or smthn?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> we should have bought the merch?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the attending of defcon was never an issue, the attached (literal) baggage was

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> The first DefCon (for example) was the first time everyone in the community had ever met each other. EVER. That's all MRL, all the community members, all the whales, all the maintainers, etc

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> That sort of interconnection is gold.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Especially when we are potentially in a hostile environment

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Msvb still attended defcon, and sold his merch w/o the ccs buying the 500 badges at a 100% markup

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Thats counter to your prior point about anonymity

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Complete and utter contradiction

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> @[#voteofrn] have you ever seen some of the badges that were created for the Monero DefCons. A couple of them were the most in demand badges across the whole event. That sort of exposure is again, worth it's weight in gold.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> *2 minutes later*

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> "exposing everyone was gold"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Never crossed my mind because its utter bullshit

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Yes, it is. Except not all the people went to DefCon, obviously.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> For example, hardly any Devs were there.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> We also shouldn't have let outreach die. Not sure why it did

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Key people left (not sure why), and we never pointed resources to replace them

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> "Not sure why", gee, i wonder

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Maybe they dont like to get fluffy, ver, samourai'd?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i wonder too

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I wonder why whales dont come out and dox themselves

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I wonder why luigi doesnt tell us his name an address, or why some devs left the project / left ccs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I wonder why youre not a target

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The last one was sarcasm

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> outreach? Why would outreach get into trouble with the law?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i wasnt aware you were referring to hobbyists

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Probably had something better to do with their time

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> you can call them anything you want, if it makes you feel better about yourself. The initiative died, because we didn't point resources towards it, when key people left.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> i dont see any mystery there

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> They curated (in my opinion) one of the best Monero into respiratories, and it hasn't been replaced. They also had wider plans which were quite grand, but if these sorts of initiatives would be proposed now, the mob would have caniptions.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> *info

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> *info repositories (damn my fingers are dumb)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> There was an active ccs when they left aka they had resources and left them on the table. Fym

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Sure. But nobody took it up, or any efforts to take it up have been overruled

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> There have been a few attempts from what I remember

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Or maybe it did eventually get repurposed for MoneroKon /meetup initiatives

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the funds were recently repurposed for monerotopia, again, fym

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Ah yes. Thanks for reminding me.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Anybody, at any point in time, could have completed the ccs. Thems is the rules.

it seemed that defcon didn't want us there, kept restricting the space they would give us

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Yes, but even given the reduction in space, we should have maintained the connection, possibly trying to integrate talks into other rooms/tracks, etc.

<c​t:xmr.mx> I have seen the last generation of badges, they were shit. I'd love to design a monero specific badge one day, if it fulfills a specific purpose such as seedsigner, NFC payment card, coldwallet. Software isn't my strength, so unfortunately I can build such a badge until we have software prototypes to be adapted

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> msvb is still (or was recently) the cryptocurrency villags coordinator (or whatever)

<c​t:xmr.mx> If you come across an idea you think is viable, by all means, reach out

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The connection was never severed, and he still sold monero badges and merch after the ccs was declined. I dont understand what youre talking about

<c​t:xmr.mx> Self appointed

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> either was always self appointed or has an arrangement with defcon (?)

<c​t:xmr.mx> If you are the only contact person in the eyes of defcon, its easy to portray the story as you like

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> anyway, the loss of the noether's and subsequent slowdown of innovation at mrl is a major reason, imho, about why repeat appearances at these conferences doesnt make much sense. "what's changed since the last time we saw you?" "We went from 11 to 16 rings"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> "that was 2 years ago" "oh. Right. I guess nothing has changed. The protocol is the same has last year. Maybe next year we'll have a working mvp of something weve been planning for n years and already spoke about for n years"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> and why not like CES etc? Something more mainstream. I dont see how preaching to the choir helps us. Its an echo chamber

so we can make beautiful music

like monerokon

but yeah other places are good to be at

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> imo, it's not just about "giving a talk on protocol cryptography". There is value in having people in various communities/conferences/events that are indirectly or tangentially related to "Monero". We can learn from others just as much as others can learn from us.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> Part of the reason why Monero hasn't been integrated as much as maybe we/some would like (whatever that means) is because we have purposely isolated ourselves from the ecosystem and how it has developed, both technically and ideologically. It's all well and good us dying on a hill, but there might also be value in trying to understand how we can integrate/interoperate/bridge acros<clipped message>

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> s other networks/communities without compromising on "our ideals" (whatever that means). Personally, sometimes I wonder if our strict fundamentalism has been a hindrance to overall adoption and the development of public good.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I think youre incorrect

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> mainstream integrations and corporate style funding initiatives, as well as legal grey areas, are why monero isnt integrated as much as bitcoin

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> It's not just about us vs bitcoin.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Well, were probably _more_ integrated than btc, less integrated than LN, but more used than btc _and_ lightning.

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> There are plenty of other projects that are "more integrated" than Monero, when that doesn't/didn't necessarily have to be the case.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> People add LN because its just a centralized layer that allows them to get paid in fiat because btc is listed on every cex

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Such auto-conversions arent as simple for monero because cex's delist to stay out of government crosshairs

"is because we have purposely isolated ourselves from the ecosystem and how it has developed, both technically and ideologically." -- what are some examples, besides defcon ccs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> and no businesses cares about bitcoin, tipcoin, monewhatever, visa, mastercard, or quarters from under the rug in your car

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> All they care about is lowest friction to complete an exchange of goods and services for a MOE

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They dont care about your feelgood conference speech about why monero is good. They use visa for convenience, they use cash because it costs less. They add ln because its handled by some third party company similar to visa.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> They dont care at all about your ideals

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Ideals don't bring foods to the table

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> As an example, there was wXMR. admittedly, I don't know much about the technicalities, or even whether it was run/operated in a legitimate manner (I know there were/are valid concerns) but there might be real value in having some sort of bridgeable asset. If a CCS came out now for a similar project, I am not sure how it would be viewed.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (like stripe)

<m​idipoet:matrix.org> A second example is that web wallet initiative from spirobel. I don't see any reason whatsoever not to support that development work, but for some reason people are averse to a "metamask" style UI/UX for a monero wallet.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> People are allowed to have their views/opinions

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I saw two types of hater on spirobel proposal. The "WEBCRYPTO IS LE HECKING BAD!!!!!!!!" hater (which have very fair argument to back this idea) and the "SPIROBEL WILL NEVER ACHIEVE THIS!!!!!!" hater.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I don't think anyone is seriously doubting about the benefits of having a more accessible wallet like metamask

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> except the person you shall not pronounce the name

If we accept the web wallet tradeoff of security for usability (like many other successful projects have), then the first concern isn't that valid. I don't have a view on the second concern, as I cannot judge spirobel's ability to code. Having said that, we have always tried to give people the benefit of the doubt, and supported ambition/drive/vision. Not sure why that should change in this instance.

<e​longated:matrix.org> Honestly, a big part of the XMR adoption issue has always been a mindset problem. From the early days, people were constantly told to “use XMR as a tool”, just spend it, not hold it, and never think of it like a currency you can keep and grow with.

<e​longated:matrix.org> There was always this constant bashing of the “number go up” idea, discouraging people from even buying XMR seriously.

<e​longated:matrix.org> Instead, the vibe was “just use it once and throw it away,” treating XMR like some disposable washing machine coin, not a long-term asset.

<e​longated:matrix.org> This mentality hurt the community and adoption badly, and honestly, it’s still haunting things today.

you may have taken things too literally, if you use it it becomes valuable

as opposed to being a ponzi

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> agree with nioc this time

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> SEETHE OFRN SEEETHE

ofrn says that it must be convenient, therefore we need the browser wallet

<c​t:xmr.mx> the vast majority of the public hates crypto for the scammy number go up culture. I dont want to be grouped in with that trash, so it makes sense to focus on the usefulness as a tool. In an ideal world new people would use it, have like a 100USD worth of spare cash and randomly notice that holding xmr gave them a better roi then holding usd

<a​remor:matrix.org> Honestly, I think it’s going fine. Only thing that had me upset a bit was deliberating pissing off key developers; I thought that was dumb af.

<a​remor:matrix.org> Oh…. Haveno needs to disconnect from CEX price altogether….

<a​remor:matrix.org> And the Reddit needs to be abandoned & throw all that effort into lemmy instances & other alternatives.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> > Reddit needs to be abandoned

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> it will never get abandoned

Reddit had more sane responses to the satellite proposal than twitter