<wrdn_13:matrix.org> If anyone from the core team is ready to seriously discuss this funding model, we can do it in a separate chat. If we all come to a consensus that it's necessary, then I'll take on its development.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> The core team doesnt control funding

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Anything you have to discuss, you can say it openly

<rbrunner7> And if it's better than what we have, and we have consensus about that it is better, we will probably adopt it, Core team or not Core team, strictly necessary or not. And maybe hundreds of other open source projects as well ...

<321bob321> Why does "this new model" need to be in a separate chat

<rbrunner7> We will patent it, of course :)

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> It doesn't really matter which chat — we can do it here. Alright, I'll try to explain it in simple terms.

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> First, let me explain what problem I want to solve this way. The problem is this: any independent project needs constant funding, both at the development stage and after release. Its development and improvement directly depend on this. Commercial projects have this, but the goal of commercial projects is only one — to make m [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/3cz7iqULOXpBbWh4 ]

<redsh4de:matrix.org> tbf, in the grand scheme of things rewriting the CCS website isn't as important as the rest of the proposals that are getting funded more quickly that relate to core or infrastructure development > <@wrdn_13:matrix.org> I mean that there are few participants in this funding program. Have you thought about expanding it?

<redsh4de:matrix.org> It's more of a "nice to have eventually"

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> The essence of the new model is income sharing based on shares. Each participant contributes any amount they wish to support the project, thereby receiving a proportional share of its income. Part of the contributions goes directly to the developer, while the other part is distributed among all participants proportionally to t [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/lcnYi6ULMWRRODdL ]

<ofrnxmr> What income?

<ofrnxmr> Example: the ccs frontend redesign is funded, is @redsh4de:matrix.org supposed to give a portion of the funds raised back to the people who donated?

<ofrnxmr> How does that make any sense?

fund a monero core dev and receive royalties from moneros market cap for eternity?

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> The point is continuity, not one-time fundraising. Don't think in terms of: if a certain amount was raised, then part of it needs to be returned. This is a streaming model designed for ongoing income for all participants.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> remind me again - where does the payback money come from?

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> Income from all participant contributions. For example, you contribute 100 coins; these coins are distributed according to the shares of all participants. You receive your proportional share in the pool. If the pool is 1000 coins, then your share in it is 10% (from your 100 coins). Then the next participant contributes 200 coins, and you get a payout of 20 coins (your 10%), and so on.

<rbrunner7> Does the pool ever reset? Or how is its size calculated? If I contribute 100 coins, and the pool reaches 1,000,000 over some time, my share and therefore my "passive income" will be dimished to some insignificant amount.

<rbrunner7> And another question: What will be the overall result of this scheme regarding how much money will go as "salary" so to say to the people who do the work, and how much will go to donors as "passive income"? If we have "X% to the workers" and "Y% to the donors", what will be typical numbers for X and Y?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> it sounds like a simple pyramid scheme

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> you cant create something from nothing

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> and the math isnt mathing

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> A = 100; B = 100; C = 300, D = 500; Total pool = 1000 coins. according to this math, A gets back 10%, so... there is no money raised

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> or the person raising funds gets 100/1000 coins, and the other 900 go to people who just sent it? that also makes no sense

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> why not jsut sent 100, instead of 1000?

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> @rbrunner7: The size of the pool is not reset, which motivates participants to increase their share in it with new contributions, thereby ensuring ongoing funding for the developer from new top-ups. The theoretical share split between the developer and participants is approximately 50/50.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> sorry, this idea makes 0 sense at all

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: No, the calculation is such that if you contribute 100, 50 go to the developer and 50 are distributed among the participants. The example above was given for simplicity of understanding. In reality, the internal structure is much more complex — there is a general system pool and a local project pool. It's probably not worth describing this yet to avoid confusion.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> so basically, if i am the only contributor, i put in 100, and i get back 50

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> why wouldnt i just put in 50? skipping the fake rebate

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> if there are two contributors who each put in 50, we each get back 25. again, why wouldnt we just put 25 to begin with?

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Because under such a scheme, you won't receive anything from subsequent inflows.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> there is nothing to receive

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> you cant ever get back more than you put in

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> there is no profit incentive. youre trying to create money out of thin ait

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> air*

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> there is no return on investnment. all of these things are imagined in your scenario. nor real

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> not* real

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> The system is not designed for return on investment — this is not investing, it's project financing with a partial return of funds. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> you cant ever get back more than you put in

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> lets say two contributors put in 100 each. pool = 200. a proposer takes 50 from the pol, leavin 150 behind. a third contributor comes in and adds 200. youre saying that the fir 2 contributors make money off of the third

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> this is just a scam

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> nobody can get anything back. it is no different than not adding it in the first pplace

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its like, going to mcdonalds and paying 5x as much for a burger, and i can redeem coupons for the burgers that i overpaid for

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> theres no incentive to do that.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its your own money

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its like, how haveno repays the people who lost funds -- with their own money

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> It seems you've started comparing this to pyramid schemes and missed the point of the mechanism and what it's designed for.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> it's funny because the idea was so weird to me I had to ask claude about it to understand better and claude said

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> > You're right about how donation funding works, and you're right that WRDN_13's terminology is nonsense.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> as in when you donate you give money away, that's the whole point. it's not about receiving money

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> what we need, is 700 ai agents to raise the money for us

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> hashtag offtopic bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/…rdinated-in-the-hugging-face-attack

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: lmao they shitpost on social medias and that's how we raise the money

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> I'll repeat once more: the goal is ongoing funding for development, not making a profit from it. So to speak, passive income for participants is a bonus for their participation.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> there is NO INCOME

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> what are you talking about

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its MY money. i cant have an INCOME off of MY OWN MONEY

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> a donation isn't an investment. you give the money away, that's what makes it a donation.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> it cant be an investment

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> there is NO money to get rebate from

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> there is no dividend

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> whatever you fund has to generate money for there to be a dividend

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> If you were the only one participating, then yes, it would be pointless. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its MY money. i cant have an INCOME off of MY OWN MONEY

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> if there were 1000 people participating, its the same linear equation

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> still pointless, entirely

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> I'm talking about a project funding model, but you seem to want to recoup your investments) to put it even more simply (so you don't drift toward investment ideas), it's just like a donation, but with cashback.

<rbrunner7> I don't think it's a surprise that questions and doubts immediately jumps on those payouts, because as far as I can see they are the sole difference between what we have now (donate, get nothing back as a donor) and your proposal (donate, but also somehow get back something). Quite naturally the question arises "How much will [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/k6Cej6ULdWk1NnV3 ]

<rbrunner7> As I see it, the whole starting point is "We want more donors, and we want them to donate long term." Well, ok, you seem to introduce a new element compared to today, "passive income", "paybacks", "interest", whatever you want to call it". And now the point: How will that attract more donors and keep them long term?

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> To achieve systematic development, constant motivation of participants is needed. For the developer, it's a steady stream of contributions; for participants, the motivation is in increasing their shares. This is precisely what serves as the cyclical engine of the entire mechanism.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> a donator isn't motivated in making money. the WHOLE point is to donate to the developer doing good work for monero NOT enrich the donator

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> also it's not even making donator richer ofc he just gets little % of what he already gave and he thinks this system is a scam (which it is)

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> so now we have 0 donators. good job.

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: This is very strange logic.

<rbrunner7> Well, I would hesitate to call this a scam. Seems to me it looks like some "delayed reward" scheme. I donate 100 XMR. At some time later I will get something. Never mind how much, never mind how much later, I will get something. Which is nice, which I may like.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> the guys who donated earlier get back more XMR right

<rbrunner7> Seems to me that's the core idea, or at least part of it, yes

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> @rbrunner7: Yes, that's exactly how it is.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> it's a pyramid scheme. it would disgust donors 100%

<rbrunner7> Well, I would worry about not all the donations funding work, but some % giving donors rewards, which, because they can't be that big, are mostly on the "psychological" side. Almost a placebo effect.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: literally it shifts the conversation from "let me donate for what I believe in" to "let me fuck other donors by entering earlier"

<rbrunner7> Hmm. I see at least some similarity with reward programs like miles when you fly. You get back a ridiculous 1% of what you pay for your ticket, but boy, see how that moves some people psychologically :)

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: Here it doesn't matter who joined earlier or later — shares are recalculated with each transaction and depend on the total amount each participant has contributed.

<rbrunner7> If this works at all (which I sincerely doubt) I think the only way to convince people would be with a simulation of some sorts that shows exactly, with hard numbers, what typically happens with me donating, receiving some cashback, not donating any more, or me donating the same amount again later, or me donating more and more [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/uMXzj6ULNlJSaFFE ]

<rbrunner7> I think this is doable with every serious spreadsheet program out there. Take something open source, Libre Office Calc.

<rbrunner7> If you had this in a spreadsheet you could also play wonderfully with cashback percents or other variables and see the changes ripple through the numbers beautifully.

<rbrunner7> Let's call the whole thing MFDRP. Monero frequent donor reward program. You read it here first :)

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> Yes, it's very difficult to explain without an example, and ordinary spreadsheets won't handle it either. Even creating a prototype could take a ton of time — there are many pitfalls in the internal calculations. This can only be implemented in code.

<ofrnxmr> Get back from where > <@rbrunner7> Seems to me that's the core idea, or at least part of it, yes

<ofrnxmr> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: 100

<rbrunner7> "ordinary spreadsheets won't handle it either" This tells me that you probably don't use spreadsheets. Half the world runs on Excel spreadsheets. I have seen people running fund management companies mostly on spreadsheets. Spreadsheets can give a rough simulation of a "donations and cashbacks" approach? Come on.

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> it's just coding with claude is simpler than learning how to use spreadsheets that's the reason probably

<rbrunner7> @ofrnxmr:monero.social: "Get back from where" From your donations of course. Just like with any loyalty point schemes. As I said, for the paltry return of 1% those systems have absolutely astonishing psychological effects, at least with some people.

<ofrnxmr> Loyalty programs charge customers and pay you from their revenue

<rbrunner7> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: Maybe you are even right. So even less excuses to not try a simulation.

<ofrnxmr> Unless monero starts selling Tshirts for profit, there is no money to give bacj

<ofrnxmr> Or unless proposers start overcharging and setting aside 1% for dividend repayments, there is no money to give back

<rbrunner7> I buy goods for USD 100, store gives me back USD 1 in the form of loyalty points. I donate XMR 100, I get 1 back as "Monero donor reward". It does not get any simpler than that. Whether this would appeal to our donors is a totally different question, probably with an answer of "No" ...

<ofrnxmr> where are you getting the 1xmr from?

<ofrnxmr> Lets say fund pool needed = 1000 xmr

<ofrnxmr> someone donates 100 xmr and gets 1 back. We need to raise 1010 xmr to facilitate that. Its exactly the same thing as raising 1000

<ofrnxmr> Only difference is you overcharge the ask

<ofrnxmr> When you get 4% cashback onyour credit card, the merchant eats fees for that, and raises prices to compensate

<ofrnxmr> So your $1 chocolatebar becomes $1.25 so that they can give you 4c back

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> And what exactly should cause disgust in a donor? There are two models: they contribute funds and receive nothing in return, or they contribute funds and receive a share and ongoing passive income from the project.

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> > <@ofrnxmr> Lets say fund pool needed = 1000 xmr

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> With the current one-time fundraising scheme, you collect the required amount of coins and give them to the developer — but what next? Development stalls until you collect again. And again. And if there are many projects and no one has income from them, donors won't be able to spread themselves thin and constantly support all of them. Do you have a solution to this problem?

<ofrnxmr> We have a generalfund

I already get something from my donations and that is a better monero :)

you want ngu?

make monero better

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> It seems only a few people out of everyone understood the essence of this model.

<rbrunner7> Seriously. If you don't want your idea to die right here, right now, as far as Monero is concerned, please get out of your comfort zone and simulate the damn thing. Whichever way. Maybe even by hand, by manually entering the numbers as you see them into spreadsheet cells, if nothing else helps.

<plowsof:matrix.org> overfunding for specific proposals funnelled back to donors proportional to their donation in a trustless / automated / magic way clicks heels together to bring it to existence?

<plowsof:matrix.org> could be a smart contract somewhere for that, but not on monero

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> You could just do a lottery

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> House always wins

<rbrunner7> Just saying, donating now is not trustless. I have to trust Core Members to do the right thing with the XMR I donate. They could easily doing something in addition to simply pay out. If that "else" brings more donors, and long term.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Are we talking about an alternative to the generalfund?

<rbrunner7> Not me, in any case. It's also a Core member that manages payouts from the CCS, right?

<rbrunner7> Just want to argue that I don't thing @plowsof:matrix.org 's argument "Monero does not have smart contracts" is any real barrier here.

<rbrunner7> *I don't think

<rbrunner7> But of course this is all moot without a good proposal for a new scheme. Which I don't see yet.

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> > <@rbrunner7> Seriously. If you don't want your idea to die right here, right now, as far as Monero is concerned, please get out of your comfort zone and simulate the damn thing. Whichever way. Maybe even by hand, by manually entering the numbers as you see them into spreadsheet cells, if nothing else helps.

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> I'll think about it, but still, testing requires a significant number of participants for the results to be illustrative; doing it through a spreadsheet, even if possible, would be problematic.

<wrdn_13:matrix.org> No smart contract can handle cascading share recalculation operations from every transaction — it would be very expensive and makes no sense.

smart contracts would handle the logistics - if you think sending 100 payments to individuals without mistakes is feasible

fprever

Do like they do for fundraisers, someone will match donations up to a certain amount

What they don't tell you is that those people will donate that regardless or have already donated :)

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> Why not have devs publish their own dedicated wallet per proposal, address plus view key? instead of relying on middleman?

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> then you have the website tracking the funds and they should only increase until milestone 1 is completed

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> carrot makes this possible right

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> it's probably better the dev is allowed to spend the donations even if milestone 1 hasn't completed actually

the community has input into proposals and trusting core to payout after work is completed

some devs you could pay without concern of work while others you can't as can be seen with past CCS proposals that were funded

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> Milestones would bound it rather than remove it, in my scenario a dev can only walk with one milestone's worth and the community keeps whatever already shipped

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> In case of overfunding for milestone 1, it switches silently to general fund

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> bcuz ppl can just take the $ and burn the handle? > <@thomasbuilds:matrix.org> then you have the website tracking the funds and they should only increase until milestone 1 is completed

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: Kuno

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: well idk, generally only people with lots of monero history get funding?

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> the downside to my approach though is that it requires splitting into milestones and in some cases it's not possible

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: It requires each proposal to be 1 milestone

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> The only reason milestones exist, is so ppl can claim money before completion. If they could be paid directly, every proposal would be 1 milestone

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> milestones are a middleground between post-payment and pre-payment. Direct payment = pre-payment

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> i mean like you ask 100XMR over 5 milestones for example and on milestone 1 you get 10 XMR max or whatever (which you can technically steal)

docs.juicebox.money/blog/overflow seems to be related, and a funding round that was refunded in the end to donors docs.juicebox.money/blog/constitutiondao-config

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: but it's more convenient for you and your reputation to continue the work

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> and complete it

a dev can appear on the ccs after 6~ months of farming PR's

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> I mean idk would you lose 6 months where you worked very hard for monero just to steal 10XMR?

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> and then your reputation is finished

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: There are plenty of people who would, and have yes

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> I have to say I'm surprised. like it really happened? when was last time?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> People who have been here for years did it for 1 or 2 xmr

people can be given 900 xmr and produce nothing any time soon

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: no way damn

some devs cant accept donations directly for tax purposes

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: They migrated to kuno

reputation - there are many crypto projects to contribute to

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> isn't their reputation finished?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Then, while blame and shaming other ppl for their cancellation, raised funds there, claimed things were back in fulk swing, and now attack people who ask

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @thomasbuilds:matrix.org: Depends who you ask

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> If you believe their victim rants, postd, gists, then no. People think they are a victim

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> As is usually the case

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> isn't it straightforward ? As in: you said you would output A, you didn't, so you don't get paid

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> yes

a contractor would never scam you if you paid them 100% upfront because it would damage their reputation

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> But ppl dont read the facts, they read the appeals to emotion

it would be nice if the world worked that way

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> well rip

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Example, if i say im going to give you 12 apples for $1 each, but i might be short 1 apple occasionally. then i give you 9 apples - and as a longtime customer, you dont complain. But then you count and there is only 5

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> seems pretty simple, doesnt it?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Yet its framed as an attempt to cancel them due to false accusations

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> ah yes I get it now

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> we need the arbitror to not be a single entity but every person who donated

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> if more than like 60% of donators (by quantity of money donated) say he shouldn't get paid, there is no debate then?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> No

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> in this situation it's individual vs individual > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Example, if i say im going to give you 12 apples for $1 each, but i might be short 1 apple occasionally. then i give you 9 apples - and as a longtime customer, you dont complain. But then you count and there is only 5

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> in individual vs group and the group is calling him a scammer then he IS much probably a scammer

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> asking donors to monitor the proposals they donate to, is an exrra burden

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> theres no need for group-think

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> 5 != 12

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> if you make it "donors decide" then this becomes a vc operation

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Where the proposers only job is to win the favor of the donor

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> cant expect a donor to read your code to make sure youre not claiming a milestone for a vaporware haveno mobile app

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> worst thing as a donor is being scammed

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Which is why ccs exists the way it does

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> yes it's best seems like

<zer0v0id:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: hi, i have just joined and see this message:

<zer0v0id:matrix.org> my i ask why "vaporware" and "haveno mobile app" are in same sentence? Is this something wrong with haveno mobile app?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> not that one

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> There was a mobile app ccs that we got scammed on

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Everybody thought that somebody else ran the app or read the code, but nobody did

<zer0v0id:matrix.org> oh, so it wasnt about atsamd21's app - cool, thank you

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> no. Atsamd21's app was done over a long period of time in an honest manner

<thomasbuilds:matrix.org> ngl with AI you don't have these issues lol

<jpk68:matrix.org> Can someone please tell me if this convo is worth spending 15 minutes reading

No

Enjoy your 15 minutes !