anarkiocrypto[m]: how does what's suggested in the link protect against the government? e.g. is it based on the assumption that clients/business owners are not spies/sold-out people?

The link contains strategies that work for me in practice for 10+ years (necessary, because I can't get ID: agorism.blog/anarkio/roadblocks-to-obtaining-government-id) as well as some untested concepts (sadly I don't have the funds nor connections to develop these).

There is no guarantee about any of these strategies, but it is the only way I have been able to survive so far.

Second Realms and Agorist Primer have more info about opsec:

Also this book looks good (but I didn't read it yet):

anarkiocrypto[m]: is it legal in, say, u.s.a. to deliver packages for people without knowing what's in the package?

I don't know about laws (it is "illegal" for me to exist in any country sadly...). I don't think senders need to disclose what is in the package, unless it goes through customs, but even then, DNM vendors successfully use stealth packaging (real product is hidden inside a legal product).

i'm not trying to exchange an illegal product (e.g. drugs), but rather a legal one (e.g. meat, cheese, etc).

so, in my case, the package is legal. it's just that a guy is shipping some edible item from a farm to an end-user, without having payment bills (because they paid it in monero, bitcoin, etc)

Not sure how you would keep meat or cheese cool while shipping (unless it is dried/cured/aged).

say, powder form milk.

Unless you mean within the same city.

also, suppose that the truck has cooling and is loaded with cheese. but without a bill. will the government object?

say, inter-city.

I don't think post offices care about invoices (unless it is international, i.e. customs).

not even between states within u.s.a.?

In the situation: Farmer -> anonymous shipper -> customer, only the farmer, shipper and customer would know about the transaction.

I don't live in the US but I would assume shipping between states is still domestic (no customs).

say that a police stopped the anonymous shipper's truck, which is loaded with cheese, yet he has no bill. is this legal in u.s.a. if caught between two different states?

can the shipper say: i'm a common friend of the farmer who is sending a gift of cheese to his buddy for free (instead of trashing it cause he made too much cheese)?

I don't think cops would raid random vehicles in the US. But you should probably ask someone who knows more about this.

In my situation there is sadly nothing I could "say" to cops, as my existence is "illegal" (the state refuses to print ID for me, while it is also illegal to not have ID).

the u.s. is large, and if inter-state deliveries are permitted without tax bills/invoices, for legal goods (e.g. cheese, meat, etc), then i think they can trade tax-lessly.

would you like to say where are you from?

or which state is it that refuses to print ID for you?

A large part of agorism is avoiding taxes, regulations, permits, etc. More info: anarkio.codeberg.page/agorism

I live in Europe. More info here: agorism.blog/anarkio/roadblocks-to-obtaining-government-id

People with similar problems: statelessness.eu/blog/each-person-l…iving-streets-we-are-losing-society opendemocracy.net/en/5050/still-sta…for-european-leaders-to-take-action

Maybe this would interest you: freedomcells.org/cells/cbdc-opt-out…te-group-for-challenge-participants There is info about starting agorist businesses with crypto.

requiers a sign up?

You can enter a disposable email address and fake name.

Here are the videos: livefree.academy/day-4-buy-and-sell…e-free-5-day-cbdc-opt-out-challenge The discussions are on the Freedom Cells website.

how can that ensure that i don't meet a government spy?

freedomcells looks interesting but it also looks like a typical honeypot...

yep

It lacks even the most basic privacy in most of its community resources.

Even so, the Freedom Cells network does actually share some useful info sometimes.

00:36 < anarkiocrypto[m]> I don't think cops would raid random vehicles in the US. But you should probably ask someone who knows more about this.

That's generally true if you aren't near an international border.

Large cargo vehicles get stopped a lot near the Mexican border, though, and if you're an obvious minority racial/ethnic type you are more likely to get pulled over.

A common rule of opsec is to not break more than one law at a time, so you don't get in trouble for a big law being broken because you got caught breaking a little law.

as2333: is falling for a honeypot considered a legally strong-enough evidence of tax evasion? e.g. can the business owner say ``it was a coincidence that i shipped you for "free" 30 minutes after you paid someone in monero''?

caveman I don't know...

this is funny

they tell you to "use a degoogled phone"

"Use encrypted messaing like XMPP (not government funded Signal)"

while at the same time admiting their own site uses all kind of 'third party' spyware

for instance : hCaptcha - Inherently, these bot prevention systems do capture personal data, such as your IP address, browser type, ISP, device, operating system, and date/timestamp - duh

as2333: do u know any alternative to hcaptcha and recaptcha?

BobSacmanto[m] of course - use your own

as2333: your own what?

your own 'captcha'

as2333: You expect me to spend days making my own captcha

lawl

That like saying to someone to build your own cryptocurrency since bitcoin sucks and has no privacy instead of using monero or another privacy coin

BobSacmanto[m] you've nothing better to do than trying to troll me?

BobSacmanto[m]: if you're so easy to give up on making your own captcha, then why not also give up and use fiat?

as2333: I was asking you if you actually knew of an alfernative. Didnt think you would be a dick

BobSacmanto[m] I actually wrote a captcha for php once - took me half an hour. But I'm sure you can find tons of ready made stuff.

how to make a captcha: no matter the user input, make it fail at least 2 times then allow the user to proceed even if its wrong

^ how google's captcha works. pathetic.

the capcha where you're supposed to click parts of an image containing something doesnt even make sense to me.

a captcha that requires javascript. eww.

honeypots are a real challenge. as soon as a resources emerges as a famous point for people to gather and trade, government can stick its nose to buy some goods only to capture businesses that are trading there to charge them with 'tax evasion' or 'unlicensed selling'.

i think the cheapest solution is: to have a few secret groups of people manage autonomous drones with large enough quantities, that operate randomly enough, many times picking and dropping fake goods, only to make it harder for the government to trace 'real' orders. when it becomes hard enough for the government to exhaust them, we've won.

there are already 'gangs' that smuggle illegal goods. can they be incentivised to engage in smuggling legal goods? their reward would be getting paid in monero/bitcoin/etc.

by having them randomly pick and drop random goods, many of which are fake, it'd be harder to identify the real orders from the fake ones.

i think making this anonymous delivery work is only a matter of two points (1) define a sane protocol, (2) assign the the right amount of monetary rewards to give the delivery agents the incentives to do a good job.

once this system takes off, the business cycle for cryptocurrencies will complete: you can buy/sell anonymously end-to-end. when this happens, trade will increase on cryptocurrencies, essentially boosting the value of all cryptocurrencies.

caveman one problem is that instead of say trying to trace deliviers, the government can just put some people in jail.

deliveries*

caveman they don't need to break your protocol, just threaten the users

who would be those people? and how would the government identify them?

but, how can they know that the person is a user, and not someone randomly picking an item and going around?

as2333: it is possible to identify users, but if we set the reward to be high enough, what would happen is that the market would converge towards a community-based intelligence system that avoids honeypots.

reward = delivery rewards.

individuals pay a lot of money for taxation, then a lot of their money gets robbed by the central bank inflating the fiat. if they divert a fraction of that theft to reward delivery agents, this would a large enough money in my view to fight the government.

caveman: ban drones and shoot them on sight/jail everyone interacting with them, problem solved

at high enough cost, we can manage enough people to fly random drones to exhaust the government. i think it is a lot harder to shoot drones, as opposed to make drones that fly randomly.

ammo is cheaper than drones

yes, but also consider the man power. how many police officers would be called to stand in position to hunt drones? they can be exhausted.

the police barely chases thieves. now if they get a new mission to hunt random drones, i think this by itself would be a clever trick to troll the government into an exhaustive war, without having to get a bullet from them.

and most drones have <1h of autonomous operation, so it's trivial to seize them while they refuel

a base can be pre-setup on roofs, in a way to let them re-charge autonomously. all while having the owners claim not knowing. e.g. a simple recharging station that is hacked off, say, AC/heater/etc electricity wires that go into houses.

of course, the house owners may know, and they might be getting paid in monero. but they could repudiate i guess ``oh we got robbed, thanks for finding that illegal charging station off my house's roof!''

hehe

imo not that expensive when considering the fact that people are people lots of trillions in tax and inflation. this approach would free them from taxation and fiat's artificial inflation, at the expense of diverting a fraction of that otherwise stolen money into those charging stations and drones.

s/people are people/people are paying/

what are we delivering again

catnip

caveman yes, that observation is pretty correct in general. The amounts stolen by govcorp are insane, and if we could invest a percentage of that in defense and stop the theft, the gains would be enormous. But it's easier said than done.

what if cats could fly drones and deliver their catnip

plowsof11: normal goods. i'm against drugs, alcohol, etc, also against not paying fees for services that we use (e.g. military, hospitals, roads, etc). i just want the government to ask for bills honestly in a /direct/ way, but asking, say, annual military fees or whatever. enough with this indirect payments (taxation/inflation).

as2333: have you seen my initial draft for a protocol? very rough and initial, but has some foundations in cryptography that enforces some structure to delivery routes.

ok i need 10t of manure for my little farm, where can i subscribe for a drone delivery and how much does it cost?

caveman just took a look.

yeah if it's delivery of normal goods, it has to be normal and expesive goods...

thing is, while i'm pessimistic in general, i think this is very doable. and the rewards are enormous in several ways. one of which is: if it succeeds, the value of cryptocurrencies would jump, hence a greater value for those who already own cryptocurrencies. even though i personally don't own any yet.

my main motive is the intrinsic value of the system (anonymous deliveries).

80211[xmpp]: hey folks is it enough to break up bitcoin by swapping BTC for XMR then at another time swapping the XM into a new BTC wallet?

no

80211[xmpp]: hey folks is it enough to break up bitcoin by swapping BTC for XMR then at another time swapping the XMR into a new BTC wallet?

80211[xmpp]: dANBs, why not by the way i don't like using BTC i am a monero man...but certain places only take BTC

* why not? by

So pay them using a swap serviceb

why dont you like using btc

Or tell them youll take your business elsewhere

only thing I could see wrong with it is the tax man would expect you to require capital gains/loss for each conversion

Who?

80211[xmpp]: oh this is bridged chat lolz

Yeah, stop trying to hide your forex trading

80211[xmpp]: >why don't you like using btc

Monero is money, not a Bitcoin cleaner

as2333: my expectation is that, once the protocol runs, it'd initially result into some imprisonments, but eventually as the market agrees on a higher delivery fees to offset imprisonment risks, communities would evolve accordingly with whatever it takes to not get caught, up to a point the government has no option but to give up.

the only thing is: get the algorithm right to allow for this evolution to start.

......

#monero-offtopic:monero.social I think lmao

whats wrong with btc? :S

Sir, its perfect

80211[xmpp]: cause you can look up how much is in each wallet on the blockchain ad amount spent etc and the obvious privacy concerns....if only the truckers in canada (all politics aside) where using XMR and not BTC they would have had a better time

as2333: ultimately, it'd be apparently for the government that it is a lot cheaper for it to simply ask for annual fees to pay for its expenses (military, nasa, roads, etc) than to take it indirectly (taxation and inflation). if a person refuses to pay his/her expenses, they can be expelled from the nation.

caveman: that sounds like something a caveman would say

80211[xmpp]: yes monero is money

Truckers are dumb

The protest was fake

Use your heads.

All that money and nobody would whisper "xmr". Everybody who thought they were doing something, were just being a distraction from actual issues

Its embarrassing to pretend like the organizers didnt know about moneron

80211[xmpp]: >also i'm not doing anything wrong but i like to keep my payments clean-ish ..i didn' have to show ID to get the BTC but used a mobile app from ATM

They used gofundme and got robbed on OURPOSE

Still, you hear about truckers and moneron

But not from truckers

You want them to use it? Go talk to them!

80211[xmpp]: >politics aside

I like monero and all... but i've heard that running your own lightning node could make transactions even more private than ring transactions on a public blockchain...

80211[xmpp]: yes monero is not a Bitcoin cleaner

80211[xmpp]: i get that

80211[xmpp]: just curious how they could track swaps

80211[xmpp]: besides timing attacks

80211[xmpp]: and amount

80211[xmpp]: >politics aside

80211[xmpp]: i get that

80211[xmpp]: yes monero is not a Bitcoin cleaner

80211[xmpp]: just curious how they could track swaps

do you run your own lightning node?

80211[xmpp]: no

80211[xmpp]: I like the real meaning of crypto that is transactions u don't have to ask for permission from a central bank or third party like paypal for example

the truckers didnt use btc either

ive read stories of people using / accepting payments in LN and having money vanish (if we ignore chan analysis 'announcing' support for it, not sure if thats true either)

they used some piece-of-shit website

80211[xmpp]: which BTC is supposed to be not a pump n dump

80211[xmpp]: bitcoindynamic.com/news/bitcoin-lin…ers-protest-seized-by-ottawa-police

80211[xmpp]: why do u folks use Matrix?

80211[xmpp]: or fake trix

i think Raspiblitz and Umbrel make running LN nodes relatively easy, but haven't gotten around to running them myself. Inscriptions might start cutting into the semi-profitable nature of running a node..?? have been out of the loop for too long

fees are really cheap right now, only 80 cents, not bad

on btc

IMHO, Inscriptions are fucking up Bitcoin's monetary use-case

oh I missed the btc side of it - thanks for the link

> if a person refuses to pay his/her expenses, they can be expelled from the nation.

Where would this person go? Sadly there is no country that accepts anyone indiscriminately...

80211[xmpp]: so how can they track my swaps?

80211[xmpp]: vice versa

just send me your BTC, and I'll send you 2x its worth in XMR!

problem solved

80211[xmpp]: >2x

80211[xmpp]: >not bait

80211[xmpp]: ;)

80211[xmpp]: thoughts on monero market?....thinkg about selling an old laptop (no hdd)

s/thinkg/thinking/

80211[xmpp]: grndslm i will send u btc for feet pics and xmr

<as2333> "the truckers didnt use btc..." <- They did

dANBs[m], I'll send feet pics first for half the BTC. Will send the XMR after that!

I missed that this was already posted

#monero-offtopic:monero.social

80211[xmpp]: also what are peopls thoughts on invidious.sethforprivacy.com/watch?v=xGEBRQU1lzw

80211[xmpp]: Seraphis/Jamtis

80211[xmpp]: is any word on the possible updates on this

"The Justice decided to return the amount of 0.28 BTC" (that they stole) - funny

80211[xmpp]: archive.org/details/CensoredIsraeli…csComverseInfosysCarlCameronDec2001

80211[xmpp]: telecoms.com/418812/amdocs-acquires-comverse-bss-business-for-272m

80211[xmpp]: nuegia.net/articles/matrix.xhtml

80211[xmpp]: yewtu.be/watch?v=1YbpKeWBwa0

80211[xmpp]: hackeavw7lge3rj7vwfewaaid7akgmys2vl…g5g6zoawzqd.onion/notas/matrix.html

80211[xmpp]: >uses matrix to discuss Monero updates

dANBs[m], i've watched been halfway watching that Seraphis/Jamtis update video.... and it's upsetting there's so many cons

i'm at the "New Addresses" point of the video, moving from base-58 to base-32... and just wanna SMH

pros outweigh cons by a huge margin

new addresses are supposed to be like 120 characters long!! but they're "easier". i've actually had to manually copy addresses a couple times before, and it was already a pain in the ass

<L29Ah> ok i need 10t of manure for my little farm, where can i subscribe for a drone delivery and how much does it cost?

i don't think it exists yet. so far at least i'm working on a draft for a protocol that, if implemented with the right incentives, would allow the eventual evolution of the community towards that as a matter of time. the harder the government presses to oppose, the higher the delivery costs (still cheaper than getting robbed by taxation/inflation), and the harder the community of delivery agents

will try to not get caught (as we will pay them more in monero/btc/etc).

L29Ah: the early rough draft so far codeberg.org/ideas/delivery

use the CLI and always C&P, so easy

mobile wallet also easy to C&P, QR code even easier

when I try and run my gui wallet I am getting this error

Cannot mix incompatible Qt library (5.15.8) with this library (5.15.7)

and then it aborts

What do?

I'm trying to rebuild qt5

rn but I dunno if that will work

Do you have two versions of Qt installed ?

No

It might be finding the headers of one with the libs of another.

Did you update Qt recently ? If you did, you'd likely have to rebuild all of the GUI.

oh?

ah!

I do my updates en mass so it's likely the aur updated it

I mean I have the cli but that is giving me errors too

When I try and send my monero out

Minor version bumps should be backward compatible when run, but you still need to build all the files in a project with the same version.

So it sounds like this isn't your problem.

???

oh I see

Only if you built the GUI, then updated Qt, then built parts of the GUI again.

So minor incompatability issues shouldn't be doing this

What is the package name of the gui client in the AUR?

Has there been an implementation of BTC -> XMR atomic swaps in a language other than Rust?

Yup

Plowsof was it java?

The guy who made it could quite possible be long dead though

oh right, the monero-javascript one 🥹 that just used the comit one as a backend iirc

Kayaba had fun looking at it

I still had it in my browser history, only reason I found it

monerobull[m]: He said a lot of stuff about it that i didn't understand. Not sure if the final verdict was "insecure" or not

wait, there was a hardfork? * disappears *

*drafted

Oh god

He was ordered to make it by putin

So they could atomic swap to circumvent sanctions

And not realizing there was a hardfork is what got him sent to Ukraine 😪

plowsof11: comit as backend 🫠

(speculation)

I wonder why the golang people haven't picked up on it yet

because alice never sends her monero in time 💢

.

when I try and send money out I get "could not create transaction could not obtain output distribution"

what do

remote node local node

it's local node

Here's a more detailed explination of the error

Try moving the wallet cache away (eg, if your wallet is FOO.keys: mv FOO FOO.backup) while the wallet program is not running.

I fixed it

What was the problem ?

For some reason after I rebuilt the qt5 package yesterday it turned my wallet on to simple mode

Oh, that's the one where it auto uses some stranger's node, right ?

selsta: line 9 in the paste above looks iffy.

chown: it does not automatically select simple mode

if you don't have a config it asks you which mode

you can change the wallet mode in the main menu

moneromooo: line 9 is unrelated, that warning always shows up

Oh well now it doesn't matter I guess cause I sent to low an ammount to changely by mistake

And now the exchange is just sitting in limbo

Because the exchange fee

I think it still warrants fixing.

yeah they fixed it

cool

Thank you for the support

haven't figured out yet how to fix this warning :/

the code that causes this seems to exist since 2016

Could someone please explain to me why I get 1000 lines saying something similar to this "2023-02-11 18:58:49.975 I [185.240.242.36:18080 OUT] 172 bytes received for category command-1002 initiated by peer" every second, when i set the log level to 1...

It was slow in the begining but you know like how something always works when you need to show someone its broken? but then it sped up.

are you having a specific issue? or do you just want to know what this log means?

i have stacktraces in my log every now and then, is this a normal behavior?

2023-02-11 18:48:14.136 [P2P8] INFO stacktrace src/common/stack_trace.cpp:133 Exception: boost::wrapexcept<boost::bad_weak_ptr>

if you have compiled yourself yes

basically this issue monero-project/monero #8341

selsta: the problem is i want to have logs enabled but i dont want it to spit out a million lines, i just want it to tell me the sync state really (i thing i might beable to tell monerod to only log syncs actually?)

is your node fully synced up?

That looks like a bug. This log is enabled at level 2. Did you change the code ?

And are you really very extra sure you set the log level to 1, and not something else ?

does it make sense for a cryptocurrency to have built-in smart contracts? or should it be an feature at a higher level/layer that's built-on top of the cryptocurrency?

Define cryptocurrency

Cryptographic currency, no

peer to peer electronic cash

Its selfexplanatory

Should a cryptosecurity be confused with currency,? How about a cryptomuseum? Is that currency?

selsta: moneromooo yes, no, i use arch so whatever thay did? im going to slrrp now, sorry for the vonfusion,

Yes no

lol

you can ignore it

<ofrnxmr[m]> Define cryptocurrency

^ "money".

Money Is dumb by design

I'm money :D

cockliuser[m]: is it true that cock.li mail server uptime is under 0.8?

VC keeps getting perpetually arrested by authorities

Romania is like that

nuffin in the blog :<

Yeah he's just cuckoo like that

But jokes aside, last downtime was about 2 weeks ago and haven't had problems with it since, service is usually pretty stable

moneromooo: i thought of an incentive mechanism to make receivers confirm their reception: a delivery agent is paid only when he (1) receivers and (2) delivers to the next hop delivery agent.

this makes them cooperate to help each other upload their reception proofs, as this rule goes on recursively; i.e. the receiver himself cannot paid after his delivery unless he 1st also confirms his reception.

i suggest the same to apply even to the end receiver: he has to confirm receiving his own package in order to get paid by himself (otherwise some amount of his money would be indefinitely frozen unless he confirms). only difference: end receiver doesn't have to send it to anyone else (optionally he can to be anonymous and indifferent than a delivery agent).