keeping tx extra does not mean keeping them in it's current form / size

also the discussion is about the seraphis implementation

nioc: Cap it asap

nioc: Its not really though

some people misrepresenting when they know better

ofrnxmr[m]: what is not?

Koe just said that.... out of nowhere. Its about now, pre Seraphis

ok thx

haven't caught up on that channel today

yes it should be pre seraphis

Its not about what we do 2+n years out.... ive said plenty of times, remove asap, add back with Seraphis after research

I vote mooo

:D

B is called b for s reason

Its a compromise

I have already given my proxy :)

I reckon people will try to bloat it

now that I know MRL had that discussion today I won't look at it until another day lolol

if we dont know the dietary requirements of speakers attending monerokon we should focus on sorting that out first before txextra

Live working group meeting at monerokon

<spackle_xmr[m]> "An interesting thought for..." <- I disagree with this whole "BTC miner's support BTC price argument." We have already observed the mining hashrate and advances in mining hardware are incentivized by price, not vice-versa.

There's a paper (also on moneroresearch) that shows that hashrate follows price/mining incentice and not the other way around. Specifically on btc

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> I really dont see it.

>

> I dont see any path where btc survives without absolute ridiculous inflation and brainwashing

Good points. If there is another large round increasing the fiat money supply's of the world which causes BTC price pumps to outpace increases in electricity then perhaps they can continue to cheat death. Also if miraculously only small amounts of BTC end up listed on exchanges then perhaps demand could outpace supply if very few people are willing to sell even if the price pumps hard

merope: I agree with this take. I think people who argue the contrary are using circular logic that doesn't pan out when you regress through BTC's history.

<ofrnxmr[m]> "Bitcoin is dead and has been..." <- why this date specifically?

2012 = privacy and encryption normalized for mainstream via Apple public fights with government after snowden leaks

ok, but at the time btc was still widely used on silk road. strange to call it dead when it was being used in a market, specifically a pseudonymous online drug market

> <@spackle_xmr:matrix.org> Solely focusing on mining, it is fun to imagine the possibilities. The future of PoW could extend past strict economics if there are social incentives. Perhaps the prestige of mining a recent block might drive people's efforts.

> All speculative, of course. For now the brutal and simple rules of hash effort hold everything in place.

I doubt mining will become a form of entertainment or play or social validation in the future, or even if these psychic revenues occur to some miners I doubt their affects will be meaningful when compared to the financial incentives of mining

Right. I didn't say these things were destined to happen, or even likely to happen.

Just that they are interesting to consider. Which I think they are.

<merope> "Mining at a loss means that..." <- You're better off not mining at all if the coin price stays low. However if you are mining at a loss and continue to do so as a means of speculating on the price of the underlying currency going up, and it does go up, then you achieve a profit. It is sustainable in accordance to the amount of money in the individuals possession that they can throw at an unprofitable venture.

<moneromooo> "FWIW it's common to burn some of..." <- One CPU added to p2pool is a trivial addition to total network security, but it is nonzero. By adding a personal CPU to p2pool you aren't really meaningfully increasing the security of one's bags

<fr33_yourself[m]> "You're better off not mining..." <- Indeed. Technically, in that scenario you are considering the "projected" profitability (ie when you sell coins at the future price) vs. the risk of "bankruptcy" if the price doesn't rise soon enough

<ceetee[m]> "or you know, you can have a tail..." <- This is true and has been true for all currencies of the past. I think it's overhyped. Bitcoin maxi's won't hit negligible inflation for at least another 2 to 3 halvings anyway. If not having inflation leads to the break down of a p2p digital cash network, then scarcity and sanctity of prices through time was all for naught

what good is it to have no inflation of a currency which performs poorly as a medium of exchange compared to another currency? I mean look at the dollar and gold for example. Gold is more scarce than dollars, but it doesn't matter because gold is dead as a general medium of exchange. Gold becomes useful when it's price begins to go exponential during a large expansion in the money supply. This is hypothetical and has yet to happen

since Nixon closed the gold window. And even then it wasn't enough to cause a total adandonment of the dollar. We still use the dollar in exchange nowadays

My vote, for what it's worth, is to eliminate txextra so that it cannot continue to be exploited.

<fr33_yourself[m]> "This is true and has been true..." <- You misunderstood me: The bitcoin network will eventually paid by transactions only, so if you hodl and rarely transact you barely co tribute to the network. Worse, large players who can move large amounts at ones pay disappropiate little.

If the use case and value lies in hodling, as some maxis claim, don't you think this should be the feature the network is charging you for? Otherwise you'd be nothing but a freeloader

slight inflation, and especially our linear inflation, is good, precisely because it puts a cost on hodlers.

Im assuming bitcoin is working as intended right now

The last I heard Peter Todd and them talking, they had pivot from "STOP CHEATING AND LYING TO THE CODE" to "I tried to mind some ordinals. Its not a big deal"

>>> so... its just accepted now? That blocks will perpetually be full far more arb data than transactions?

So btc has been hijacked into a settlement layer for jpegs?

Bitcoin blocks be like:

bitcoin was intended to evolve. Nowbody builds a proof of concept and the declares this first attempt as perfect

ofrnxmr[m]: This screenshot is > a Month old

ceetee[m]: problem is, only the people who didnt get the memo are left over

BLASPHEMY. BITCOIN IS PERFECT, SHITCOINER

Now.. lets fix this with more fragmentation.

"Some nodes can have mempools larger than 300mb.. so those tx arent alllllll getting purged, just centralized on custom nodes" ha

satoshi should come back and drop a single signed message

To say "lol, not what I meant"

Craig Wright left? I know he blocked me, but isnt he the genius behind Bitcoin 😂

Faktoshi

48p2xRKZPTf2zzXrhN2pZT1vZ132g9L76KPmoNEtxPJYgZkiUTyAsrxSKCDgH4aYnLcV4QRVQnLvn5GFSfqUZHgjLaSTPea

Send 1 XMR

That is a mainnet address, you're mixing up testnet with mainnet. Try again. You need to start your wallet with --testnet.

Or you can just mine, difficulty's very low on testnet.

Testnet addresses start with 9 or A, not 4.

moneromooo: I'm Joke boys 🍍

Such a funny joke

node synced after 3 days 🦾

Mordinals need to go on Wownero

Whats wownero?

its like monero but spelled wownero

1kb fixed size tx extra, 184m emission, slower emission curve, more rings (WOW!), and Blockchain about 5gb larges

RandomWOW vs randomx, pink vs orange, and it has a very interesting whitepaper

THE WHITEPAPER!

Seth for Privacy agora vai focar no Bitcoin.

*

Traitor

i like that image

Lmao anyone have a TL:DR of his post lol

tldr = i hate monero and bitcoin is the best /s

Tldr: Monero cult fuckers, dont @ me /s

Tldr ^

That works hahaha

Make monero great again! Don’t jump the ship hahaha we need to keep using and developing it

Seth is dead to me /s

Imajin trying to use BTC as a payment system when the block are simply too small they they won't fix it

Ill accept him back if he outs an M tattoo on his forehead. Like Majin Seth

<ceruleous> literally who

<ceruleous> oh

<ceruleous> ohnononon

<ceruleous> monerobro

<ceruleous> monerobros

<ceruleous> we got too cocky 😭

<ofrnxmr[m]> "68b23c0fq244kn6j.jpg" <- Actually, many if not most people enters cryptocurrency through Dogecoin and similar memecoins

I miss Seth already 🥲

I dont miss him. The guy is living rent free in my broken heart 😡😡

MethForPiracy

It’s like he is here but isn’t

How many of him do you see? 24 or 25?

that post is heavily conflicting with the "Bitcoin's Fungibility Graveyard" from 2 years ago

<ceruleous> so he got a job at a bitcoin company?

<ceruleous> does it mean he will stop shilling monero now 😭

He is everywhere and no where ofrnxmr

A ghost of monero

Maybe seth was forced to say this maybe some mans in black forced him to say that kind of stuff

Seemed proud about it on monero talk, money talks 😈👹

Seth 1. Should have written "yall can lick deez hairy nuts"

He just follow the money

For most time last year, XMR was rising again BTC.

Not this year (at least for now)

At the end he is for the money and not the tech

Then

2 kept doing whatever he desires

ceruleous, my understanding is that he found a possibly well-paid job at a Bitcoin company and so he cannot focus on Monero anymore, as XMR renders the Bitcoin privacy tools he works for completely useless

Not agreeing with the last sentence here

Trojanvolta[m]: That's a good point, it was kind of a public crypto person, meaning they know where is live and how he look like

Seth hasnt been bought out.

And there's no conspiracy

ofrnxmr[m]: I did not say that

maybe more like he damped xmr when it peeked and how he is full into BTC. So gonna try to pump that bag instead

.... if anybody was going to smell smoke, it would be me.

Seth is being a 1 man army

For the better of everybody, and everybody wants to attack him.

Lol I was trolling, I wasn’t serious lmao

s/how/now/

No good deed goes unpunished

RavFX[m]: Maybe I forced him to say that stuff I dont remember but there was 3 guys that i interrogated.

RavFX: closer to "you cant just mess around in the backyard forever"

Bitcoiners must have brainwashed him in some way

Bitcoin will be a privacy coin Bitcoin will be a privacy coin Bitcoin will be a privacy coin Bitcoin is the only future Bitcoin is the only future

even if bitcoin was completely private, it would still suck - it's slow, expensive, not scalable, asic mined...

No , he had debts with some guys that washed money on pizza hut.

When is the conference call

Id love to debate

But they have lightning and zaps

Lmao

the men in black got to him with that flashing pen gizmo

Monero who?

Never heard of them

We smoke grass all the day when we can

Lighting solves nothing, as you need to make a transaction to get in and to get out from Lighting channel

Principal problem with btc is speed and most importantly block size.

like I remember when they said that Central Africa Republic decided that bitcoin was legal tender or something like that (not taking the fact that during a proper bullrun, BTC TX fee is higher than average Central Africa Republic monthly salary 😂

xfedex[m]: Lightning it is easy to traceability

Lightning is also a pain to use (at least when I was using it)

It’s still a pain, especially loading your Bitcoin. And it’s so expensive hahaha

Nobody really 0uses LN, and even if everybody used it, Bitcoin's scalability wouldn't improve much

it's not that reliable except if you are connecting to centralized node.

it's at the end extremely centralized (or TX fail to go thru)

Such as fiatjaf making a little war aggainst monero

He is a foot that was visited too

XMRPriest[m]: I wouldnt know :D

And the unload fee for you're BTC is paid in advance when you load you're BTC if I remember. have fun waiting to unload if the fee doubled

Fiatjaf sucks. Fact

He was maybe payed by chinese cause Nostr there is only chinese faggots

What’s even worse how expensive whirlpool is to mix coins

Guy needs to give me some of thatoney and stop selling lies on twitter

Trojanvolta: offensive and homophobic reported

Is Seth promoting using LN and mixers? Did not read his new BTC stuff

Take a look

Idk but the common bitcoiner is

RavFX[m]: I think he works for a bitcoin privacy hardware company, so ig yes

Yea they added Whirlpool to fountain in the software

That was on his talk

Maybe they payed him .

But they payed him with Threats

xfedex[m]: They are willing to do a monero hardware wallet

ofrnxmr[m]: He didn’t say that explicitly but he said someone can turn the software to be a monero only app but would take a lot of reworking and the devs are respectful but not interested in monero

I don’t count on fountain as a company coming out with a monero software lol

We still has mental outlaw and Luke smith

And the memories of Macfee

No we dont

Mentaloutlaw isnt supported by us. He does his own thing and we love him because hes famous

Luke Smith, same thing. He does whatever he wants

TRAITORSSSS

... /s

<ceruleous> the two balding youtubers of tech

Both MO and LS are mainstream famous because they arent worried abojt what a bunch of cultists think

They declared that moner it is the only cripto they didnt lied.

<ceruleous> wrong

<ceruleous> WOW is the only crypto

Facts

Shitnero is for criminals

<ceruleous> stupid moneroshill

Lets make a fork weednero

Bitcoin died when it go taken over by blockstream

It's been now marketed mostly as a "store of value" and "digital gold" instead of being what it was initially designed for "a currency / p2p payment system"

Bitcoin supporr nfts so it is now bloatware

Support*

monero does, too: mordinals.org

Damm

I'm solo mining. When I temp stop mining, is it all over? Or do I get credit for prior work?

IOW if I don't hit on a block and stop... am I then starting from scratch?

we need a shill with Fabio tier hair

LZA_MENACE: How do we stop this 😭😭

At least NSA can trace it ahahaah

Why are we letting ordinals stay on the blockchain and what are the privacy implications for transactions

I just hope that the thousand new IRS agents will do there job and milk bitcoiners at max percentage :)

> This small tweak to the Monero protocol should not harm the overall privacy of the network, but allows us to organize the transfer of ordinals between community members.

<rooter0_> "I'm solo mining. When I temp..." <- Id answer but u dont like neh

I want them removed, not easier to use lmao

They have no right on the chain for a digital cash 🤦🏼‍♂️ nodes are already heavy with the UTXOs, we don’t need JPEGs to be spammed

ofrnxmr[m]: IOW starting over. :(

:shrug:

Are you pool mining?

Solo on a pool vs solo on a local node?

Solo.

local

Didn't know you can solo in a pool?

Solo local = you didnt lose any progress

O

You'll only be paid when you find a block 👍 feel free to restart as often as necessary

Ty

Np. I probably came off as a jackass, but thats just my persona. Happy to help

<XMRPriest[m]> "How do we stop this 😭😭" <- we could slow it down by removing tx_extra. There are consequences with keeping/removing and the ongoing discussion is intense

nh

nah

monero ordinals?

luckily wownero is almost immune

example monero ordinals "nft" ⬆️

Ugly ring members too

really love that one. especially the _016ba_ at the beginning. We feel the artist' intend on this one

* really love that one. especially the _016ba_ at the beginning. We feel the artist' intend on this

there's a p2pool ring memeber in that transaction

since the TX has only 1 output, I guess I can safely exclude it

my guess is that the real ring input is ee7d04b0b00ba9f593e70296b885f05a61f086b76d05cc5093ff7cbcc1c8b8f7

i wonder if i'm correct

tx_extra needs to be removed

+1

it needs to be removed like really soon

or at least capped, like wownero did

Ordinals on monero is an infection that needs to be removed. NFTs are a waste of space and bloat ware. I made poll on twitter, interesting responses if anyone wants to check it out

Wanted an overall opinion because it’s not really known that this is happening on the chain

Sir, you are keeping people without twatter out of the poll

Twitter is a start lol

Where else should I make one ?

I've got a better idea for a poll. I publish two addresses, and share view keys with everybody so they can verify the vote. Voting is based on the amount sent to each wallet.

ewww, I just looked at the "proof if infection"

Hahaha

Most of the NFT arts is 🤮

Waste of storage space and cpu

They literally explain how to do it with the cli on the webpage

"as well as storing any graphical and metadata associated with that ordinal."

Oh fsck, it's so worst than these scam on ETH... At least on ETH they don't store the stupid jpeg

It's like Ordinals

i wonder why both don't save the IPFS hash, it's smarter

I'd be almost OK with having 32-bytes IPFS hashes NFTs on Monero/Bitcoin

That is transparent right.

Can we just petition pools to not mine TX containing *ordinal* in extra fields or something like that? if the fee is lower than 1000 XMR?

Petition pools 😆😆

They wont even change configs for profit

erf, just remove the extra fields then

I have a very hard time with the argument for keeping it around before figuring out how or if its even necessary

Right now its pretty much a junk drawer that allows easy soft forks

Could, one day, there be a use case that isnt detrimental to monero? Sure. Post seraphis, post membership proof, or with a much better implementation

Multiple choice is probably his Txextra got added in the first place

From the other perspective.

If we didnt have Txextra, would we add it in order to support a system that is designed to lowering the on chain privacy?

Every time I start the Monero wallet it takes a long time to sync. Right now it's started at block 1,350,820. Is it possible for it to be this far behind?

I run monerod using a systemd service to start up on boot.

When booted I start the wallet, it connects to the daemon, then starts syncting. Is this normal? Shouldn't the daemon have already synced?

Systemd and gui might have separate storage locations for the blockchain

Make sure they are the same

rooter0_: There should be 2 bars

The top bar is updating the wallet with the latest info from the blockchain

The bottom bar is the progress of the blockchain being up to date with the rest of the network

<ofrnxmr[m]> "Could, one day, there be a use..." <- I am going to tweet this and @ you, great take

If you start monerod with systemd

You dont need to use local mode in GUI.

(I think) you list use remote node and add

`127.0.0.1 port 18081`

Just* use

(So, in gui, go to settings > node > remote > add new remote node with 127.0.0.1 port 18081)

Ah

The daemon is set to use the same config.json as the wallet, but I just realized yesterday I was using the wallet daemon, and today the systemd service.

When I started the wallet both bars are blank except the lower one is gradually building.

But I def need to set it to Remote mode.

This also explains other problems I've had!

And it seems to mean that I can also run the daemon on another machine using its CPUs, and set it as a remote node here?

Yes sir

(as long as the blockchain is there too)

<᷾s> Who had this stupid idea 😭

<᷾s> Though I guess it was inevitable with txextra

<᷾s> Ordinals is a misnomer though because ordinals create an ordinal number for every satoshi

`--rpc-restricted-bind-ip=0.0.0.0 --rpc-restricted-bind-port=18089`

Male sure firewall on host has 18089 availablrm

If you want to access from wan, you may need to do port forwarding for 18089(and 18080 while youre at it)

* <᷾s> Monero Ordinals is

Then youd access as a remote node on wanorlanip:18089

I'll use SSH reverse tunneling to make the remote machine seem local. And I'll bring in those ports, so prob won't need the rpc switches?

Personally, I havent tried

With the wallet set to Remote on the local daemon... it's started syncing all over again... both bars blank and lower one climbing. Hopefully this is the last time it has to rebuild the blockchain.

monerod is using random DNS servers rather than my own?

Not able so sync with systemd .service because firewall does not allowDNS leaks.

There's no monerod switch to change DNS. Guess I have to use nftables to redirect.

You can use uh..

1 sec. Let me reply in order

rooter0_: `DNS_PUBLIC="tcp://9.9.9.9" ./monerod`

for example works

1. Ensure only one monerod is running. If multiple, kill them or restart

Thanks selsta :P

Thats what I was about to go look up ♥️

Ok, thanks.

(except I think it would be udp://)

Nope, udp:// is invalid.

It converts the DNS request to TCP, I guess so it's stateful and can find its way back.

I have to open 53/tcp on the DNS server.

Damn, still ons of I/O errors on sync.

None for DNS tho.

inbound SPT=18080

Ok opening that up got me an instant full sync. I'm now running remote on my local systemd monerod service.

Although, still getting I/O errors.

Now getting blocked is out 18280/tcp. Is that legit?

Lost sync.

Also blocked are 18082, 3, 4. None look legit according to search.

Monero uses 18080 (P2P) and 18081 (RPC) by defualt for mainnet.

18082 for zmq RPC, which you can disable.

--no-zmq

Command-line switches are supposed to be the same as config file options, but startup fails with "Invalid line 'no-zmq'".

They're not, though I do not know why. There's a very recent PR which changes some or all of that.

no-zmq=1 ? make sure your node actually "works" before adding any options , maybe a good idea

Yep, no-zmq=1 works!

... and it's recommended.

but are you talking about config file or command line (as i was about to say 'ignore me')

i have no idea where i am

Config file. It twerks.

... but still tons of I/O errors. Firewall blocks on ports 18180 and 18084.

Wallet not syncing. Both bars blank.

Bars ? I'm guessing not monero-wallet-cli then ?

Correct, gui.

i would love some ascii bars for the cli

Blocks on port 18480

That sounds odd, assuming outgoing, but who knows, maybe the GUI does funky things.

Ain't should try to et out there...

Yup, Outbound tcp.

It could also be that some nodes advertise odd ports.

yes, there are nodes that use different ports

I think that's fairly rare though, but the numbers suggest it might be that.

Should be able to start syncing at least tho... can not.

post your entire config file on a pastebin site

If monerod cannot sync, then restart with --log-level 1, wait for it to try, then if it fails you'll see why in the logs.

If it's failing to find peers in the first place, try deleting p2pstate.bin.

you are also sometimes talking about the gui and sometimes talking about the daemon, also confusing

Most nodes will be on 18080 so firewalling others for outgoing *should* be fine.

K

Well my 200GB disk is completely full. It's where the blockchain s.

Deleted lmdb and now it's syncing properly...

Starting over.

the chain is like 200 gb

I thought 200GB would be enough for a while. Maybe my dicking around with everything messed it up.

It's about 160GB

You can sync pruned if you don't have enough. It's about a third the size.

I can make space. It's just that on a 1TB SSD, 200GB is alot for one virtual machine.

--prune-blockchain has no downsides and is only around 60gb

I've found that having the blockchain and unprived user on its own disk improves hashrate by 3x. At least for me.

The disks can work simultaneously if the daemon is on the main drive.

Not about to run as root just for the sake of "up to" 15% improvement. The world is full of boogers.

My life became instantly better when I found Qubes OS. Want root ? Have at it :D

Of course it's gambling whatever doesn't have a root exploit also doesn't have a xen escape. But that's likely.

That one's good, but I've done enterprise infosec for 24 years, and roll my own.

I think you can apply the msd mod manually

There are experiments with immutable OS' (MicroOS, SilverBlue, etc), but in my experience they're not reasy for primetime.

Is it to enable pre-fetch? There are alot of msd parameters. I will research.

If I wanted to create a project related to XMR or that would use XMR, is there any help I can get ?

is there a group of community members that have been helping build around XMR ?

#monero-community-dev maybe?

And #monero-community:monero.social

I should ask there ?

Community dev is the home of what youre referring to

I cant seem to join them

any link>

#monero-community-dev:monero.social

okay thanks

does anyone know if morbinal explorer supports webp?

i know it does jpg and png

i hope it does webp as well

monerobull[m]: Morbinal 😭

It's morbin time

yeah

mordinal is a shit name

these are morbinals

call it monero-orbs or something if you want to keep the "legitness"

and morbinals for the meme value

<Bon 💗> We must destroy Bitcoin

bridgerton[m]: They're doing that themselves lol

<ofrnxmr[m]> "Traitor" <- *dev

<Bon 💗> I know but they need a little bit of help would destroying asic Bitcoin mining machines lower down Bitcoin or something

monerobull[m]: hmm this makes my ponder my orb

Morbs

ill ponder my morbs

cockliuser[m]: We are destroying monero with ordinals so cheers

😭😭

ill put that emoji on chain

<Bon 💗> Well then we must destroy the ordinals then

<Bon 💗> I don't know how but they gotta go if

XMRPriest[m]: Technically Ordinals is a very bad misnomer for it lol

m-orbs

you drop heavy balls onto the chain

Lets use Monero to wire cables

uhm

zk tech can prove you ran something right

cockliuser[m]: Let’s do it haha

put smart-contract morb on chain

have local client compute and publish a zk proof?

Monero file transfer protocol

monerobull[m]: can someone who knows how this works comment if this is in the slightest bit possible?

<BobbedBort> morbs lmfao

<BobbedBort> they decided to call it "mordinals"

<BobbedBort> this is extremely sad and funny at the same time

<Bon 💗> True

> <@ctrej:matrix.org> You misunderstood me: The bitcoin network will eventually paid by transactions only, so if you hodl and rarely transact you barely co tribute to the network. Worse, large players who can move large amounts at ones pay disappropiate little.... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…9be3dfe2109f6681aef9470f4311c698623>)

<ceetee[m]> "slight inflation, and especially..." <- I disagree with this line of reasoning. In fact if Monero had chosen to extend it's falling block subsidy, for example higher year over year inflation like Dogecoin or even worse curve then doge coin, then I probably wouldn't be as interested in the project. Scarcity is ideal for a currency as it preserves accuracy of relative prices not only through space, but through time

it says slight right there

its half the inflation rate of gold

and the network as to be paid somehow, purely by transactions and fee market doesn't work

<ofrnxmr[m]> "Traitor" <- Why do you call Seth a traitor?

any long term system must be stable, and thus it must be funded by its users

100% sarcasm

It's a joke, Seth isn't a traitor

ceetee[m]: Yes, I think this is good.

Omg same convo different room

./merge room

Lol Seth isn't a traitor. He's just a littles retarded.

I'm also a little retarded.

ceetee[m]: I agree. I just think the argument about poking people who retain their currency in their possession with a stick is not a sound argument.

s/littles/little/

<RavFX[m]> "Imajin trying to use BTC as a..." <- It still works as a payment system though. It's just slower than competing chains and also more expensive and not private.

You put money here because of the security, then pay your share of the security, simple as

fr33_yourself[m]: Slower and a hell of a lot more expensive during a bullrun

or you wait 3-4 days

ceetee[m]: I mean I guess you can think of it that way. I understand and appreciate the value/merit of Monero's tail emission, so I view it as a good thing and not a tax

limit in blocksize make it unsuitable for a payment system

because during a bullru, mempool is permaconstipated

s/bullru/bullrun/

RavFX[m]: Yeah I saw all the people on Agoradesk complaining when mempool was congested recently lol

Wasnt it like 12000 at one point

RavFX[m]: In Bitcoin this has been empirically proven to be true. Not sure about Litecoin yet

And during a bullrun, the fee to not wait 3-4 days is higher than monthly average salary of central africa republic, a country where BTC is legal tender

meaning, it fail for it's purpose

Litecoin have the same issue, block size are limited

but there faster so you can slush more of them in the same time

Yes, just that I don't think LiteCoin has faced the same degree of congestion as Bitcoin because quicker block times

Can process more transactions in the same amount of time

fr33_yourself: also on AgoraDesk, sellers ask for ID lol

that's a big oof

not as much people use litecoin. exactly, it's faster block so you need 4x more TX to constipate it's mempool

BTC have also abusing miners (pool colluding to constipate the mempool to extract more money in fees)

RavFX[m]: depends on who you ask ;)

fr33_yourself[m]: If you have a country on where it's legal tender, but the fee is higher than average monthly salary... yes, it's fail at it's purpose

My current tier list is Monero > Litecoin > Dogecoin > Bitcoin

Mine is

Holding

monero > usd

Condom swap > ltc

BTC is a good payment tx buffer, nothing more.

It's been marketed as a store of value instead of a p2p currency since blockstream hijacked the project

* Mine is... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…332552a5728cf07840e86c6bf74024799a3>)

Monero>Litecoin>Bitcoin>Doge (doge is a memcoin, it have no real purpose and during period of calm, it's fee are higher than BTC)

Yall are all liars

Wownero > Monero > wownero > wownero

I just pay bill using LTC lol

when XMR not accepted

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Mine is... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…7e8f6d5d507d670632184a26e441620cf12>)

Gold seems pretty dead unless all cryptos fail for some reason

Gold have no real use beside annoying to use store of value.

It have no liquidity

RavFX[m]: Really? I haven't seen Doge's fees breach those of Bitcoin? Plus at least Doge has tail emission and 1 minute blocks so it is more usable for quick transmission than Bitcoin

imagin going to the grocerie store and try to pay for a loft of bread using gold, and trying to cut it in front of the cashier to pay the peoper amount

> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Gold have no real use beside annoying to use store of value.

> It have no liquidity

The lack of the liquidity is actually a serious problem with why I'll probably never look at gold unless quantum threat manifests or splinternet or power outages or internet down for some reason. All of these seem like pretty negligible tail risks

RavFX[m]: Agree. This is why the market has not returned to using gold or silver as general media of exchange

Average transaction fee, USD | 1.87 DOGE

That's more than BTC right now

> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Average transaction fee, USD | 1.87 DOGE

> That's more than BTC right now

Funnily enough that's probably due to not having Taproot which was a blockstream change

ah wait, BTC got higher now. BTC back over doge in fee term because of the pamp

I think that's because they hard-coded 1 Doge as fee minimum years ago. It's been fixed in the protocol but some wallet software probably hasn't kept up.

that's the difference.

when market calm/boring, doge fee are higher than BTC fees

> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Average transaction fee, USD | 1.87 DOGE

> That's more than BTC right now

wow that's crazy haha

still slower though

Rucknium[m]: Isn't 1 Doge like 0.07 USD though lol

Yes one doge is about 7 cents

Yeah.

but during period of calmitie and boringness, BTC fee is under 0.10

now it's higher because we got a pump

Send many btc dusts under 0.05$ fee last year

can't say for now, I stopped using BTC since localcorn died

<xfedex[m]> "that post is heavily conflicting..." <- agree. a bit sus

He named Bisk as a solution for KYC BTC in his post

Bisq*

it's honestly easier to onboard someone to monero than btc. the only two points of difficulty are sync times and the current vs. available balnce

And Bisq is a confirmed good source of tainted BTC... Buy them from there and send them to binance or fixedfloat and it might get confiscated

haha

i feel like if you accept tainted btc and lose it by trying to cash out via a CEX you deserve to suffer

This is we don't have wallet that ask the feds and other entity about how tainted the BTC you got it.

cockliuser: Guess when they hard-coded it. (This is a cautionary tale for Monero by the way.)

That is a much needed feature for btc wallet, it should use API to ask if it's tainted and split them if it is so you know to not send them to CEX

anyway it's tracked so who care if you ask Feds blacklist each time you receive a BTC tx

You can make it so btc wallet have two balance, like one normal that display the total of untainted output then a second total in red that display the tainted output.

And when you spend, it should have a radio button with 3 choice (spend whatever, spend clean only, spend tainted only)

by default, not spend any tainted shit

That way people would have no excuse if they send tainted coin to a CEX. And people would be aware of the clean vs tainted coin ratio.

That is a required improvement for BTC wallet

Since Seth works for/with one, why not contact him and share the idea

And the concerns about bisq

Will do that later tonight

> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> He just follow the money... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…224aad6f3ef887b91d2c16bcfa0b82af37f>)

> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> That way people would have no excuse if they send tainted coin to a CEX. And people would be aware of the clean vs tainted coin ratio.

>

> That is a required improvement for BTC wallet

I disagree because taint exists in the eye of the beholder regarding transaction history. Ordinals, well... that's an actual issue

> <@gfdshygti53:monero.social> Principal problem with btc is speed and most importantly block size.

>

> like I remember when they said that Central Africa Republic decided that bitcoin was legal tender or something like that (not taking the fact that during a proper bullrun, BTC TX fee is higher than average Central Africa Republic monthly salary 😂

And maxi's claim this news headline as "Bitcoin is winning" Lazer eyes

Taint isnt in the eye of the beholder

If you piss in my lemonade, its not lemonade and you can keep it. I dont want it

<Trojanvolta[m]> "And the memories of Macfee" <- McAfee was really the GOAT. *furious seven ride out plays in the background*

Mehhhcafee

ofrnxmr[m]: Ok well can you tell me *exactly* what makes one BTC tainted and another clean🤨

Yes.

One was refunded from a kiddy porn wallet, one was not

Which is which ? You're not clear.

The tainted BTC is the one that is basically bills marked by the feds being tracked in the open

The untainted is btc that doesnt interact with known entities

Now, aml etc goes further and will block deposits from samourai simply because YOU tried to hide the source

Tainted btc = law enforcement for existing laws. Stolen BTC, btc that was used for illegal purposes... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…dead996413b98c844aab49bc5c4618a9ef8>)

<ofrnxmr[m]> "I have a very hard time with the..." <- agree

<ofrnxmr[m]> "One was refunded from a kiddy..." <- Yes, but the act which creates taint is purely subjective

it's still a btc. just a subjectively naughty history is associated with it

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> Tainted btc = law enforcement for existing laws. Stolen BTC, btc that was used for illegal purposes... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…327ab812945b68d417997216bf9d14981c1>)

fr33_yourself[m]: No, its proof that you bought kiddy porn

Its no different than selling drugs to an undercover cop, then getting caught with the marked bills

It could be used as evidence that the hypothetical individual performed a naughty activity, however the judgment of taint is a subjective one regarding the activity

No, it is proof if you own the wallet it was refunded from

And that you sent money to an adderss they scraped off a dnm

ofrnxmr[m]: agree, however the what determines is naughty is subjective valuations by actors. but yes i agree with the technical idea you are conveying

And they are usually the damn dealer when they do thks

They know they sent you marked btc, and then waited for you to go forfeit it

They = police

ofrnxmr[m]: You basically just one shotted all transparent coins lol. It's really that simple for LE isn't it? unless they use Monero that is

Thats why dnm use monero whenever possible lol. And why cash is hard for LE to work with

They have to physically mark the bills or use bills in sequence etc

I agree with your examples, my point regarding taint is that it's subjective to the people who like to prosecute others aka agents of the state

P2p, nobody cares about taint

You can spend you scribbled on cash at the convenience store

ofrnxmr[m]: could you elaborate on why cash is hard for LE to work with?

Because is not "on chain" or even online. Its all manual

ofrnxmr[m]: Isn't marking bills a fairly simple and certain method of tracing a bill's movements? Most criminals don't have the time in pursuit of profit to jealously scrutinize each bill they use

Criminals wash the money like samourai,.

Thats why its called money laundering ;)

You repurposed the funds, distribute then, mix them, and ultimately remove the direct link and add doubt to the accusation

Exchanges know when YOU just did the washing procedure, which is why coinbase has locked account of people who wash after withdrawal

I agree with all this

I agree and you are spitting straight facts

Monero doesnt get the taint flag because of plausible deniability.

after you explained how trivially LE can use BTC to trace DNM activity, I now understand why hyc is quite confident that over the next couple of years UTXO coins will no longer be used under state adversarial environment

You would achieve plausible deniability on btc if EVERY BTC tx was coinjoined

But you lose it because you tell them "I did this on purpose"

Isn't simply using Monero losing some degree of plausibility. In other words doesn't the simple use of Monero software increase your suspiciousness to state actors?

That was giscomos arguement

Not saying btc is better or coinjoin

But NO. Because monero isnt just zcash or arrr

Some private but broken shit

Monero, even if public, is better

Its the better option in EVERY way. And its able to support a similar level of privacy as fiat while doing so

I think it is a reasonable Giacomo's argument is reasonable, but is probably only a problem for people in first world countries

Do while btc pretends to be an option, the only thing btc has going for it is the quantum resistance.

First mover advantage and whatever doesnt matter, because Bitcoin isnt s true competitor

How is BTC quantum resistant?

Off the top of my head, I dont remember . Just remember that monero isnt (yet), and Bitcoin supposedly is. But you never know until quantum attacks happen

As an individual I see why using Monero is advantageous, but also can see how it could be used to de-anoymize your anon status by opting out of mass default of stoopid banks and pay pal and venmo and other piece of poopy panopticon platforms

ofrnxmr[m]: Yep, thanks for the reminder regarding xmr not being quantum resistant

I tell my bank and kyc exchange straight up

Im buying monero

Why? Because their services are unreliable

If I need to make a transfer on a Sunday, im making it.

And im not jumping through hoops to hide my balance from whoever im sending money to. Im just entering their address and hitting send.

And im bot waiting til Monday.

I told them to start an xmr backend so they could transfer my money fast. But Nooo... so I use a better service. Period.

Is that illegal? Or shady?

Or just smarter than waiting 2 days

Revuo Monero Issue 163: March 11 - 16, 2023. revuo-xmr.com/issue-163.html

If my kid asks for $20, they dont need to know I have more than that

ofrnxmr[m]: Your position and argument laid forth here is reasonable. However, I doubt most individuals using Monero are using it for this express reason. I can see people in the grey and black markets being able to start accepting it for these express reasons though, so there will be more like this mindset soon

^ currently

But monero is mainstream friendly.

You dont have to care about privacy to use imessage or whatsapp

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> I told them to start an xmr backend so they could transfer my money fast. But Nooo... so I use a better service. Period.

>

> Is that illegal? Or shady?

Did you actually do this or just a hypothetical scenario? If so you have balls of steel to ask your bank about this

You use it because its better than sms

Yes I actually did

... they froze my transfer.

ofrnxmr[m]: Is smart to wait 5 min and see a confirmation than 2 days and paper work

i agree

Idiots. What do they think, im going to lie? DUMBASS shitty service THIS is EXSCTLY why im buying monero

F u and your "we cant give you your money... oh.. and were closed.."

bank is stupid intermediary and slow system

ofrnxmr[m]: also agree here

Bank has 2 options. Keep me as a customer and stock price NGU, or lose me

Ill leave. I have like 10 accounts. Happy to use a competitor or just straight up force my employer to lay me in xmr

when i send money overseas, i can use western union, fast but expensive, or i can use crypto, that is fast enough and cheaper fees than wiretransfer, Wu etc so the reciving part of family get more bang for the bucks.

ofrnxmr[m]: Did you get your kids into monero !!

ofrnxmr[m]: this I am slightly skeptical of. Once you've used it for 2 weeks it's very simple. Hardforks take a little bit of thinking, but also simple. The problem is the average individual is used to zero sync time and instant spendability of funds received. they don't appreciate the privacy the gain at the cost of waiting no more than 20 seconds to sync and having to wait for 10 blocks to spend

Hard forks are very simple for mobile users

Just open your usually auto-updated-in-the-background wallet and youre good to go

ofrnxmr[m]: big oof

Used to happen all the time

But now they know im buying monero. What are they going to do? Ask me again?

You delisted it, so I sent the btc to a swap site

ofrnxmr[m]: the amount of green pieces of paper in existence is singificantly less than the number of score points aka dollars introduced via banks into the balances of individuals

Ponyeatitall[m]: and no intermediary. and no kyc bullshit. and no feds scrutinizing your tx with Monero instead of WU

ofrnxmr[m]: agree here

fr33_yourself[m]: idk about that tbh. what i care about is that for every 10.000.000 vnd i send, reciver only get 8.000.000 vnd thats 12.000.000 vnd in transfer fee, rates and bullshit the family dont get.

^^^^^^^

Thats what im saying.

You dont have to be a criminal to have a brain

Ill take the 2% loss on the exchange before I pay the nonsense bank rates

1usd=1EUR

bank says

1usd=78c eur

^ fake numbers, but you get my drift

im not rich, can afford to buy whatever i want, and i need to think twice before buying anything at least. i have cutted down my expenses on all kinda subscription shit, but still need to pay extra for some crooks in leathershoes at the bank going to get fatter... if their fees was compatible in compair i would probabluy just use their system.

<Ponyeatitall[m]> "idk about that tbh. what i..." <- Fair enough. but if that's all you care about then why not use Litecoin?

> <@ofrnxmr:monero.social> 1usd=1EUR... (full message at <libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/do…cf64c1a1fae7fdc50aa027a814be2561b47>)

btw i am not shilling litecoin, I like Monero much more just see it as faster than Monero

idk, i got around 6h time zone diffrence. so its usally not a life of death matter to have it in 24 secons, within 24hours is reasonable.

^^

if the feds eyeballs are like that on everything you do, then you need monero because if you use utxo coin you are probably fucked if they want you bad enough

i wake up when family goes to bed etc. and talk whit them when they wake up n im going to bed lol

Hey, how does ring signature work ? There is this blockchain called Ergo they implemented ring signature as optional for sending transactions or something of the sort. I am wondering if thats even possible and if the privacy is even close to that XMR delivers

orion_midast[m]: If you care about having financial privacy, then opt-in privacy should be something you avoid like the plague. In other words is privacy is nothing close to the anonymity set of Monero

fr33_yourself[m]: I know, but I am interested in understanding the tech

I am wondering how effective the tech is, and what are the downsides

It's math. How many opt-in ring sig tx's occur per day on ergo? ok and how many occur per day on xmr? And how long has ergo implemented this change? and look at how long monero has had ring sigs? and does ergo have bulletproofs, i.e. amount encryption?

Moberu used to have non-standard ring sizes

used to is the key word

Right

So thats where to look

Ie why we changed to static

fr33_yourself[m]: lets assume only 100 transaction on ergo use ring everyday and this is something they had since launch

when did they launch?

is this a proof of work chain?

They dont have amount encryption but they use UTXO, I dont know if that matters

fr33_yourself[m]: yes

First result

ok the fact they don't have amount encryption automatically lowers their utility as privacy coin. If you care about privacy, you should use Monero instead and keep this submarginal chain in mind in case Monero fails for some reason

gotta economize the mental bandwidth

Ergo launched in 2019

fr33_yourself[m]: How does that affect the privacy ?

Can people use the amounts to trace back wallets ?

bruhv we had ringct before this chain even had its genesis block lol

So at X time wallet SOMEONE sent 239.343 so all we have to do now is find whoever received that amount in that time

Monero amounts used to be public too

Is ergo just monero v1?

orion_midast[m]: dude imagine you are Kim Jong Un and you want Putin to send you some money to fund your nuclear program. Are you going to use a UTXO chain or one where the volume of the transaction is encrytped? You will use the latter

ofrnxmr[m]: once again used to be. That's why monero is top g in the privacy space. The KANG

fr33_yourself[m]: yeah agreed

btw, I am asking because I am doing research in understanding how the privacy cryptos work

I am not suggesting anything here

fr33_yourself[m]: apparently Russia used Monero

Before I post it, I’m allowed to promote something of mine Monero-related, right?

ofrnxmr[m]: I have a serious question and want a serious answer of your best theory: why does the majority hash miner proxying through clifton new jersey not just maintain his mining hashrate? Why does he flicker on and off? Does this mean its some sort of hacked web service, giant bot net he switches on or is it someone who is paying for the hasrate from a hashrate service provider, and thus face financial restraint?

Yeah

ofrnxmr[m]: What do you think about my question regarding the mystery miner who is being a bit naughty?

Mining for profit and not trying to 51% the network

(Gaming the difficulty)

Dynamic metnal bandwidth

Really? that is your base case? Then why does he shut his miners down?

s/metnal/mental/

Mining constantly will raise difficulty to where its harder for then to mine blocks quickly.

They take breaks to allow the difficulty to drop back down to a lever where they are mining at ~1.5x the effieciency as if they mined 24/7

how does flickering his miners enable him to game the difficulty

that actually makes pretty good sense

thanks

Its obvious if you watch it live

Oh no

And they even show off their xmr earnings on the pool website

Do they control a high % of hashpower ?

I don't watch it live, that's why I report to you ofrnxmr. You are like ominiscient regarding Monero

Rec[m]: 1GH or so

Probably a lot more

But again, splitting the chain = lost confidence = the little profit maker is gone

And its harder to do that with btc, because the miners are known

Ok so that leads to the next question. Do they have a physical CPU farm, a botnet that they turn off and on (not sure this even technically possible, but I imagine so), or is it some webservice?

NSA is 1hr from Clifton and there are a few data centers there

Ive said it before but it wouldnt surprise me if a cloud provider was smart enough to "hack themself" for profit

Or it could just be NSA acquiring xmr to pay ransoms or fund rebels 😆

(Not really serious on acquiring to pay bills. They probably have enough xmr from seizures or delistings)

But they dont want to pump the price of xmr, otherwise its not so easy to acquire, and it becomes a more powerful tool (able to move a lot more money)

<ofrnxmr[m]> "NSA is 1hr from Clifton and..." <- holy shit you're right haha

<ofrnxmr[m]> "Ive said it before but it..." <- Both your theories are plausible

do you know if there are any cloud providers with hq or big offices or warehouses near there?

<ofrnxmr[m]> "But they dont want to pump the..." <- bro this makes so much sense

Isn’t 1GH like almost 50%?

Yes

Oh

Oh you’re talking about the hashvault thing

What are the implications other than the 51% attack?

Its almost 50% if current* but they had like 1-1.5 GH at peak (4GH network, 2.5 after they turn off)

Rec[m]: Its one miner on hashvault

That also solomines sometimes

Yeah

1.5GH is like thousands and thousands of CPU?

Or a cloud provider etc

Rec[m]: Worded that wrong, I meant CPUs

70 top end epcy

Wow, must be quite expensive

Could be the feds trying to get control, but you know more

700*

Oh wow

Id argue they dont want to 51% it otherwise they would show up with more than 1GH

The math shows they were aiming for 50% (blocks every 1 minute)

51% induces double-spending, right?

What epyc runs at 2000+ kH/s?

Holy crap

1 block per minute...

Is that a website?

Thank you

ofrnxmr[m]: I thought the NSA was out west, not in Clifton NJ

I looked the other day, dont remember if source was website or Google maps. I can check again

Google maps showing nothing on the west

not on the coast

there is a chain of supermarkets in NY called NSA :D

NSA has offices around the world and four cryptologic centers outside of the headquarters in Maryland within the United State

they also have a museum

Wanted to share

Sorry for the off topic

Of the current discussion

What is it, link is being stupid

a conference call tomorrow hosted by xmr priest to discuss morbinals

I was thinking of the Colorado location

also in Georgia, Hawaii and Texas

plus I am sure other locations that they don't mention :)

plowsof11: Tonight, I thought lol

Should I make it tomorrow ?