<w​izeguyy:tchncs.de> Are there any opinions about churning coins, by repeatedly sending to yourself?

<p​olar9669:matrix.org> Don’t do it so much that it stands out

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> sounds sexual

question - is it possible to use an incoming txid as a source of randomness? or can the sender manipulate it?

<m​odul8:matrix.org> If people wanted monero for privacy where else they gonna go? People will alwaya need private transactions and their really isn't much competition. Online privacy and freedoms seems to be reducing every day so the monero market can only get bigger. Main problem I see is that people need to self host things to make p2p work and most are not willing.

<j​ordan_sanchez:matrix.org> Diversification, Prepping, & Alternative Investing (Comic Books, Shoes, etc).

<j​ordan_sanchez:matrix.org> We use Monero because we don’t care if it goes to zero in fiat tomorrow, to us 1 Monero is 1 Monero.

<j​ordan_sanchez:matrix.org> We’ll use it anyways.

<j​ordan_sanchez:matrix.org> Because Monero is a concept, and a message of freedom, and privacy which is more valuable than any currency could ever have.

A currency with no value?

Wownero?

It has the value of a deposit bottle :D

<x​fedex:matrix.org> wownero has more value than bitcoin :D

<x​fedex:matrix.org> in my heart ^^^

when you favor emotion over reason you lose

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> price != value

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Tell that to the cashier at the supermarket

tell that to the car dealer who lowers the price after you start walking out

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> normies

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> ugh

does anyone know if its possible to use an incoming txid as a source of randomness, or is it possible for the sender to manipulate it?

Sender constructs the transaction, and txid is a hash of it, so sender can manipulate it

they can manipulate it by making many of them until the hash matches what they want, but doesnt that eat up their funds?

or can they make it, decide the hash doesnt match, and get those outputs back?

does the network even verify the hash or can you in theory recompile and make the txid something else and itll go through?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> snex: You can construct a tx without broadcasting it. So someone could just re-construct a tx millions of times without paying a fee for any of those txs.

got it thx

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1ah7xv1/ccs_hintojanai_fulltime_work_on_cuprate_3_months/

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> how come wownero is solo mining only and monero isn't?

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> because monero don't support solo mining

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> because monero don't advocate solo mining

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> y

whaat

it supports solo mining

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> oh mb I thought solo mining meant no pool mining

how could wownero possibly enforce solo mining only in the first place? sounds dubious

by requiring wallet private key for mining

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> iirc no same address from one hashrate source or smth like that

even then you can form pools through community wallets

just have to trust people

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> weird indeed. I'm not knowledgeable on that

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> that's the same as solo mining only, in my view

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> the claim remains correct

but pools already involve trust anyway

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> centralized, that'd be the difference

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> If there is a way of centralizing wownero miners then the claim is false.

Theres no such thing as wownero solo-only in practice. Any "solo" miner can form a pool

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> snex on a normal pool, you only have to trust the admin(s). On a "pool" on a solo-only chain like wownero, you'd have to trust *all* the miners, and everyone else would have to trust you, because you'd all need the private spend keys of the shared wallet

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Which means that anyone could steal all contents at any time

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> So you might be technically able to do that, but in practice it's a no-go

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> The only reasonable setup would be with a small, closed group of trusted friends (the kind you'd trust with your money)

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> If you wanted to set up a public pool you'd have to publish the private keys somewhere, or at least establish a system that new miners could go through to ask for them. Which means anyone could get your keys and steal a block right after it's mined

you also have to upload your private spend key to every box that mines. sounds like a big risk

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> For individuals, it's still not that bad. You just need to make sure you don't expose your rigs carelessly

if my mining rig gets compromised, best you can do is redirect the output for a short time

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> As long as you don't do anything too dumb, it's fine

my monero mining rig, that is

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> ofrnxmr on the contrary: wownero solo-only works *in practice*, because no sane person would share private keys with untrusted parties to form a mining pool

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> So, Wownero is great then.

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> It's more decentralized.

<s​omeoneelse495495:matrix.org> yeah must be that, wownero better, monero bad

You dont have to, you can just use xmrig-proxy with pplns tracking

You only need 1 key.

you dont need anyone elses keys

Just like a regular mining pool, you just contribute hashes and your contributions are tracked and paid out in a centralized manner. Its the same way there are centralized pools on top on p2pool

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> On the contrary, solo-only is pretty bad for network security overall, because you're pretty much killing off small miners. The ideal solution would be a p2pool-only network (where you can have multiple p2pools), but that's not technically possible (that we know of)

Seems everybody forgot about xmrig-proxy?or pretending it doesnt exist

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Right, I didn't think of that

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> How is it "pretty much killing off small miners"?

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> The whole point of mining pools is that small miners need to join their forces (and split the rewards) to have consistent and regular payouts (aka low variance in their income over time). That way you only need to do a small amount of work and get paid regularly (and pay your bills/spend your coins/do whatever)

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Solo mining is all-or-nothing, ie the highest possible variance. A miner with a low hashrate could find a block in a minute, or no block for several months, or even years

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Which means they could potentially waste months of work with no reward

xmrig-proxy + wownero allows to store wallet private spend key only on the proxy

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Most rational miners don't like that perspective, so they would not mine at all

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> sech1 then there's a workaround to pool?

end miners (which connect to the proxy) only have the one-time secret spend key for a block they're mining right now

so they only can steal the block they're mining at the moment

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Oh right, miners still have the keys on the proxy, that's why it was not a good setup

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> *from the proxy

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> Sounds like a dumb feature to create.

no, proxy sends a unique spend key to each connected miner

so it's relatively safe

if someone connected to a proxy finds a block, they can steal this block

but they can't steal blocks from other miners connected to the same proxy

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Ah, so only the miner who actually finds the block could steal it from the pool

<e​ndor00:matrix.org> Gotcha

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> still bad

so proxy is safe with wownero, but you can't make a pool out of it

because when you find a block, you're only getting a small portion of this block's reward, so you always have an incentive to steal it

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> in the end it centralizes, because it favors large mining farms

for proxy it doesn't matter - all miners which connect to it, belong to the same person

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> as endor00 said

even if some miner gets compromised, their expected average reward is the same as if they just started mining to their own wallet

because stealing found blocks = essentially solo mining with extra steps

but if you're in a pool and start stealing blocks, you get rewards from the pool and from the stolen blocks => incentive

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> hmmmm

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> no incentive, but still bad because it could ruin the entire pool

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> in a situation where people need to cover production costs

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> tight situations

<e​laryan:hackliberty.org> It could allow for takeovers from competing pools. Again, leading to centralization.