<i​ty:itycodes.org> Block chains are cool and all, but have you heard of merkle trees (/s)

<i​ty:itycodes.org> (Block chains are just special-case Merkle trees)

<i​ty:itycodes.org> Block chains are cool and all, but have you heard of Merkle trees (/s)

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I wouldn't exactly call them special-case Merkle trees

<i​ty:itycodes.org> Meh, it's close enough for a joke. What's the reason, though ?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I mean, what's the reason for calling them that?

<p​reland:monero.social> I’d personally call them a salad since they are a mixture of multiple things

<p​reland:monero.social> Either that or a soup

<v​enture:monero.social> I was wondering the other day about those 😅 for their potential use in a zero-knowledge scheme in which each leaf would entail an IOU and a custodian service generates a reserve_proof together with the merkel header as message (which adds up all the claims). does something like this make sense?

<v​enture:monero.social> I was wondering about those the other day 😅 for their potential use in a zero-knowledge scheme in which each leaf would entail an IOU and a custodian service generates a reserve\_proof together with the merkel header as message (which adds up all the claims). does something like this make sense?

<v​enture:monero.social> I was wondering about those the other day 😅 for their potential use in a zero-knowledge scheme in which each leaf would entail an IOU and a custodian service generates a reserve\_proof together with the merkle header as message (which adds up all the claims). does something like this make sense?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> pretty sure this is how big exchanges do their reserve proofs: kraken.com/proof-of-reserves

<3​21bob321:monero.social> I thought they used darts and dart board with numbers.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I still think they use darts and dart boards with numbers

<v​enture:monero.social> ah nice, thanks for the link. yeah looks very common practice

<v​enture:monero.social> this is gonna by offtopic but just to mention quickly, it's crazy and mysterious how that's done in TradFi ... the current understanding seems to be that there is nothing like that and assets are used as collateral by 3rd parties unbeknownst to the holder. As a consequence, it seems if a broker goes insolvent, you are reimbursed only pro-rata after systemic players got their share first

<v​enture:monero.social> youtube.com/watch?v=ldNdW3_00gI&t=188s

<v​enture:monero.social> first 3 minutes after the timestamp summarises that (3.08 - 6.08). really unnerving

Hello, is it normal to not be able to leech from peers for hours when syncing the blockchain?

I've been downloading the prune blockchain for two days and sometimes i just do not get any peers for 4 to 8 hours

I use a VPN with port fowarding set up properly

<k​arano:poddery.com> how fast is your internet

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> I had the privilege of recently being featured on the Monerotopia podcast with Douglas Tuman, the mastermind behind XMR Bazaar.

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> We explore the differences between the MCEP and the MCEPm while also outlining tips to improve your marketplace listings.

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> Finally, I outline my personal views of Monero mass adoption.

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> You can see our full discussion here: youtube.com/live/-viaPgptV5k?t=3343s

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> In short here are some key takeaways to improve your listings:

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> - Headline of 6 words

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> - Headline answers the question “what is it”

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> - Clear image correctly cropped

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> - Description outlining problem that you solve

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> - Description with short paragraphs (no more than 3 sentences)

<m​oneromaster:matrix.org> - Offer a discount

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I watched :D

What are the current fees for a monero transaction? I mean from one wallet to another wallet using the most standard transaction type.

Saw some services selling prepaid cards for Monero... I wonder if there are places that just refuse such cards.

<p​aranoia_machinery:monero.social> there definitely are. those cards don't work everywhere like they claim. lots of places the purchase just won't go through

Has anyone used Monero recently? What are the fees?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> negligible, less than a cent

m-relay really that low? That is great. How can I buy coins from miners directly instead of Binance?

Is that even recommended?

Also who should I follow on X(Twitter) for news related to Monero/Crypto??

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Do you have any other crypto coins? It's easier to swap crypto to XMR than national currency to XMR

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Binance doesn't list XMR anymore, but even if they did I wouldn't recommend them

I wonder why Binance would delist Monero...

And why am I still saying Monero? I meant XMR.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I tend to say XMR when referring to the coin native to Monero, but they're fairly interchangeable

<s​trawberry:monero.social> If you have BTC then you can do an atomic swap to get XMR almost immediately without trusting the other party. I think atomic swaps are also available for ETH and LTC, but I've never used them so I can't vouch

m-relay alright

what about mining monero, how much new monero is generated relative to the supply?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> 0.3 XMR per minute. Mining isn't very profitable unless you have free electricity

Hmm...

<s​needlewoods:monero.social> btw m-relay is not a user, it's a bridge between matrix <-> irc

Wut? Not a real user?

lol

It says your real name is: Matterbridge

What does that mean?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> We're in a matrix room which is being relayed to IRC by a bot

You mean #monero is that "matric room"?

What exactly is a metrix room? Something like the matrix in the movie matrix?

I am unsure if you are trying to reference the movie to make a joke, or if you are trying to inform me about something.

<i​ty:itycodes.org> Lol. matrix.org it's a chat protocol

lmao

<i​ty:itycodes.org> There used to be a proper bridge but libera.chat did a libera.chat and told Matrix to kill it.

And what about "m-relay is not a user"? Lmao

<s​trawberry:monero.social> It's a bot sending messages on behalf of several users

Ahhh!

Now I get it.

<i​ty:itycodes.org> Yep. Your msg shows as a msg sent by m-relay with the content

<i​ty:itycodes.org> ```

<i​ty:itycodes.org> <C​TCL_FAILURE> Now I get it.

<i​ty:itycodes.org> ```

<s​trawberry:monero.social> The same thing happens on our end, m-relay sends messages for all IRC users

Makes sense now!

I was wondering about that <...> but now I know.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Anyway if you want to buy XMR for national currency, try Haveno: github.com/retoaccess1/haveno-reto/releases/tag/v1.0.8

<s​trawberry:monero.social> It's not an exchange itself like Binance, but a marketplace with an arbitrator who resolves disputed trades

Ah, interesting!

As for cards - I just wonder what types of services usually deny them. And what about individual sellers?

Why do you guys use matrix?

I mean, what would I gain if I would install matrix too?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I haven't tried any prepaid crypto cards so I can't comment

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Do you mean prepaid cards bought with crypto? I've tried them with cake pay and trocador, they work well

CTCL_FAILURE, I guess here it serves as an easy bouncer.

recanman, I heard about some places denying it so was wondering whether there is some logic to it.

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Depends on the merchant, worked where I used it in the US

<s​trawberry:monero.social> CTCL_FAILURE, I just use matrix because I'm used to it, no real reason aside from that

Oh, okay

I much prefer IRC.

But I do have a Matrix server too.

How does Monero handle spoofing?

For example an attacker (ALICE) can contact an XMR seller (BOB) and say he will buy 10 XMR.

Now the attacker lets the victim (CHARLIE) pay the seller (BOB) and since the seller received the payment he now assumes he needs to pay the attacker (ALICE) and pays the wrong person. The victim (CHARLIE) has paid but the 10 XMR are now owned by the attacker (ALICE).

Is there any method for CHARLIE to ensure that BOB will pay him and not ALICE?

m-relay?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Confused, why would Charlie pay without expecting anything in return?

From the description of it, Charlie will pay not in XMR but in FIAT? It's some social attack, XMR can't protect you from it

... Ehm it is because CHARLIE wants to buy XMR. The attacker lets CHARLIE pay and waits until the seller has received the money. Since the seller only writes with the attacker he now believes that the attacker ALICE has sent the money.

Obviously CHARLIE expects to get the 10 XMR but the attacker claimed to be a genuine seller.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Are you talking about Haveno specifically? As sech1 said, Monero can't protect you from social attacks, hence why we need an arbitrator in fiat trades

And since BOB received the money he just pays Alice without ever writing with CHARLIE.

if they're dealing with FIAT <-> XMR conversion, it's a man-in-the-middle attack, and XMR won't help Charlie

if it's BTC <-> XMR atomic swap or something, everything will be fine

No m-relay it is a scam method called spoofing...

Which I explained.

And my question is how Monero protects buyers from spoofing attacks.

Only atomic swaps can give you a mathematical guarantee for this

Note that this attack effectively allows any scammer to intercept any genuine trade.

FIAT <-> XMR conversion requires reputation system and arbitrators

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Well sure, if I make a fake Binance website I can refuse to let people withdraw their XMR, but this sort of scam applies to literally any goods and services

NO

That has nothing to do with that scam method...

Maybe I did not explain the steps well enough:

Yes, Alice talks with both Bob and Charlie and pretends to be them, and runs away with money. This is why exchanges like LocalMonero and Haveno hold money before both sides confirm the trade succeeded, and they have arbitrators.

1. Attacker contacts a "genuine buyer" & a "genuine seller"

2. Attacker negotiates the terms

3. Attacker lets buyer pay

4. Attacker asks if the seller got the money

5. Attacker lets the seller pay to his own address

6. Attacker receives the money

7. "Genuine buyer" has paid but never receives XMR

It's not directly a Monero problem unless we're talking about atomic swaps

My question is what Monero does to prevent spoofing attacks.

It's a social attack involving people on an exchange, not an attack on Monero. Monero does nothing and doesn't have to do anything about it.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> If the attacker can convince the victim that he's a reputable XMR seller, then that's the problem

So how would you sech1 make sure you won't get scammed like that?

<j​effro256:monero.social> It doesn't that is up to you. Monero transaction outputs are just ed25519 points. That's what authorizes the spending of that money. It's up to you to put those funds in the right ed25519 point

Charlie and Bob should double check XMR addresses they pay to

and use a secure trade

where the money is held by arbitrator until both side confirm success

have you never traded on LocalMonero?

<j​effro256:monero.social> Get your XMR address from them in person or over a trusted channel

LocalMonero? First time I read this name.

LocalBitcoins then?

Both exchanges are the past though

So basically to buy XMR you have to rely on a trusted channel.

Haveno is the new thing now

What about that is decentralized?

You can buy XMR with an atomic swap

I am not criticizing the system, just wondering about the principles with an open mind.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> excuse me sir, do you have a minute for our lord and savior haveno DEX ? blog.nihilism.network/servers/haveno-client-f2f/index.html

then you're guaranteed mathematically either to walk away with your XMR, or with your BTC (minus fees)

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> centralised exchanges are a thing of the past now !

<s​trawberry:monero.social> There's no 1 single trusted channel, who you trust is up to you.

sech1 yes, as long as you are using a swap you are right.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> on haveno you can do direct fiat -> xmr trades btw, no need to go through b*tcoin

Is b*tcoin cencored here? Why the *

<j​effro256:monero.social> Every single cryptographic communication problem relies on you getting keys from your counterparty over a trusted channel, Monero is no different. Have you thought about how HTTPS avoids man-in-the-middle attacks over the internet? It's because a root certificate was placed in your OS's filesystem when you installed your OS or browser etc. That's used to create 'trusted' channels.<clipped message>

<j​effro256:monero.social> Even with symmetric encryption, you have to get the password from somewhere, and you sure shouldn't send it over the wire in plaintext

So I take from this the best ways to buy XMR are:

- LocalBitcoins

- Haveno

Anything else?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> LocalBitcoins doesn't exist anymore

Huh? WHy?

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> @ctcl check kycnot.me if you want to know your options

What is kycnot.me ?

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> its a list of services / exchanges that allow you to buy monero without any KYC procedures

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> haveno is listed there for instance, but the other options force you to go through bitcoin to trade fiat -> xmr, which isn't ideal imo

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> (ie: bisq, robosats)

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Yeah, you can also add Bisq to the list, but it's not ideal since you need to go from fiat->BTC->XMR

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> thats the reason haveno got forked from bisq in the first place too, to make sure monero is at the center of the transactions instead of bitcoin

Ah great!

Any other way to go from fiat -> XMR -> fiat? WIthout KYC

Or at least from fiat -> XMT -> BTC

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> well, the only other way is you know someone that sells monero and you ask them directly, otherwise theres haveno

Hmm...

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> afaik the other options on kycnot.me are all of the fiat -> btc -> scheme

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> (i checked bisq, and robosats a few weeks ago)

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> afaik the other options on kycnot.me are all of the fiat -> btc -> xmr scheme

- kycnot.me

- Haveno

- Knowing someone personally

Any other way to XMR without KYC?

Also good ways to sell XMR?

Just asking to double check if someone has more ideas.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> In any fiat<->XMR trade you'll need to trust someone at least a little (or have that person trust you), so that trust has to come from either the law (like in KYC exchanges) or from reputation and repeated dealings (arbitrators on Haveno, Bisq, etc)

<s​trawberry:monero.social> You can probably buy XMR on dodgy telegram channels, but you'll get scammed at some point

WHAT IF THERE WAS A COIN that would combine owing coins and reputation?

A reputation system coin.

Why does that not exist?

To hard to implement?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Not sure how something like that would be implemented

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> telegram is a KYC platform anyway

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Keep in mind that cryptos can be swapped without trust, so any way to get BTC without KYC is also a way to get XMR without KYC

Not for fiat.

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> But ! if you go through BTC to get your xmr you loose value in the process

That is even worse!

<s​trawberry:monero.social> A surprising number of things can be bought and sold directly or indirectly for XMR, see:

<s​trawberry:monero.social> monerica.com

<s​trawberry:monero.social> xmrbazaar.com

<s​trawberry:monero.social> moneromarket.io

Awesome! Now I get all the good links, do you have more?

<n​ihilist:m.datura.network> monerosupplies.com lol

It would be great to have a list of trusted XMR addresses, that are available to contact to buy or sell.

1. Buyer sends message request via the network to the seller.

2. Buyer pays a fee for the request.

3. Buyer establishes connection with the seller if that seller wants to do so.

4. Buyer & seller write directly using their private keys.

5. If something goes wrong the buyer can prove to other trusted sellers what happened.

6. If the majority of the trusted sellers sign the transaction they can delete funds of a trusted seller.

<s​trawberry:monero.social> Often the best way to "sell" XMR is to spend it. I've heard you can spend it on anything on Amazon here, although I'm not sure about the privacy implications: monezon.com

This would at least remove the necessity of any service or risk of a spoofing scam.

interesting m-relay, thanks

<j​effro256:monero.social> @CTCL_FAILURE: look at zero to monero web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf chapter 4 for a great read on how stealth addresses work

Thanks

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> Hello, world 😊

<c​t:xmr.mx> Hello 👋

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> welcome

<v​enture:monero.social> oh it's

<v​enture:monero.social> oh it will exist very soon. It's called CBDC.

<v​enture:monero.social> oh it will exist very soon. It's called CBDC with inbuilt social credit score/reputation.

I am not talking about CBDC, how much more KYC can it get?

Plus I believe everyone should reject these kinds of centralized and highly controlling currencies.

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> I’ve used monezon, both as an executor and as a buyer, and it’s legit. They use amazon wishlists. A buyer will put items they want to buy as a public wishlist and send that link, and the executor will buy the items in the wishlist.

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> After the executor buys it and the seller confirms they got the order, the monero will be sent to the executor

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> I did have a case as an executor of a buyer not confirming he got the item even though it was delivered already, but after a couple days i dm’d the guy that ran monezon to release the funds to me and it went through.

Nice

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> Your address as a buyer is hidden from the executor, BTW

That is great!

<s​trawberry:monero.social> how does that work?

IDK

Maybe the monezon has an explaination.

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> When buying up the items in an amazon wishlist, amazon itself hides the address from the executor

<v​enture:monero.social> are there executors for EU as well? or is it entirely US based amazon?

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> As an executor i bought items from amazon canada haha

<s​trawberry:monero.social> I see, so monezon has an arbitrator? Is it custodial or does it use multi sig?

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> Not sure about eu

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> Arbitrators, i’m not sure, i just dm’d the guy that made when the buyer didn’t confirm he got the items after a couple days

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> Multi-sig, idk. I just got funds sent to the address i put in, so does that make it custodial?

<s​trawberry:monero.social> The arbitrator being the site owner

<s​trawberry:monero.social> If it's fully web based then I think that rules out multi sig

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> It’s been a while since i’ve looked at the interface and i vaguely remember the option as a buyer to call in an arbitrator

<s​tarlingfarchecker:monero.social> Overall a cool experiment