over the years people have tried and failed to come up with fact based churning guidelines

the topic will be moot soon™

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Iirc rucknium had a CCS for researching this but didn't get the funding

as nioc said, monero isnt perfect and there is no perfect solutions except to fix the tech

Rings are poor and always have been

<m​odul8:matrix.org> its amazing that work is being done to upgrade from ring signatures. i felt rings were easy to understand though. Like auditing the bitcoin supply.

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> But they also felt shaky

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Intuitively rings being explained sounds like monero is just a cryptocurrency that forces you to mix your transaction with 15 other people each time (ik this is wrong just what it sounds like)

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Which is intuitively not "fully secure" like fcmp

well, they are called "mixins"

And monero amounts didnt used to be private

ofrnxmr: ofc monero is perfect, it is life itself :D

your results may vary™

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Is anything perfect in life ?

Cat

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Your results may vary

:)

Unlike btc, monero hard forks to improve repeatedly

Imagine if we decided to never hard fork 🥴

since it's name changed from bitmonero it has been on the path of constant improvement

processes and decisions were made to enable it

during the initial birth of shitcoins it wasn't even if it was born as one

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Were there really no hard forks lol

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> I could've sworn they increased the block size to 2 mb

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> From 1 mb

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Or was that included in segwit soft fork

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we have a clear mission statement

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> bitcoin had it as well but was hijacked

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> we can learn from what happened and have to defend ours

Daybreak all of Ruckniums ccs proposals have been merged and funded. He also has a personal donation page where people help fund the related infra to on-going research

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> there were hardforks before

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> for example when the

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> for example when they had an inflation bug

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and they will have to do another one for y2038 if i recall correctly

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and imo, they will have to do another one when the emission runs out

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> theyll probably cope via demurrage

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Mb I suck at reading the CCS website 😅

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> It was this CCS ccs.getmonero.org/proposals/Rucknium-Statistical-Research.html IG he just hasn't started yet 🤷‍♂️

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Or the fees go from 150 USD to 1500 USD

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> /hj

<m​onerobull:monero.social> no they wont

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Looking at bitcoin maxis dismiss the issue of high fees makes you think they wouldn't care if 10x fee actually happens though

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> How would demurrage work with sidechains

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Sounds like they're incompatible ideas

<m​onerobull:monero.social> nobody would pay them

<m​onerobull:monero.social> are these sidechains currently in the room with us?

daybreak, BTC maxis don't rent VPS and domains with BTC $15 at a time I guess.

<m​onerobull:monero.social> i can tell you exactly how it will play out: bitcoin will become less and less secure but since asics are getting better and better, hashrate will be always close to ATH and that will be their cope.

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> I'm really salty about bitcoin refusing to address the fee issue so in my head I'm imagining a scenario where they do the ethereum strategy of making sidexhain dependence a feature

And I am salty about Bitcoin beong so much more widely accepted than Monero! A Monero VPS was pretty easy to find, but it's rarer for domain registrars, especially "traditional" ones and not Njalla-like.

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Ikr 😭😭😭

<m​onerobull:monero.social> the thing that could make proper eth-style L2s possible, BitVM, already starts out with a mega hacky design, just like lightning

<m​onerobull:monero.social> i doubt it will happen

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Did the forced cex removals and looming threat of sanctions have that big of an impact on acceptance of xmr

<m​onerobull:monero.social> i dont think so

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Seems like it slowed it down a bit but didn't reverse the trend

<m​onerobull:monero.social> everyone who didnt accept it before didnt do so because it wasnt on coinbase commerce

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> "Lightning is the only usable crypto for day to day transactions" - r/crypto comment with positive upvotes

<m​onerobull:monero.social> everyone who accepted it before, still does

<m​onerobull:monero.social> lightning is very far from useable

daybreak, I was shopping for registrars before this happened.

<m​onerobull:monero.social> id rather use stellar luman lmfao

<m​onerobull:monero.social> id rather use stellar lumen lmfao

So you have to keep yourself online 24/7 to use it?

<m​onerobull:monero.social> for lightning, yes

<m​onerobull:monero.social> alternatively, you use a custodial wallet

<m​onerobull:monero.social> aka paypal

that will sanction you just like everyone else

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> theblock.co/post/264585/wallet-of-satoshi-bitcoin-lightning

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> whoopsie

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> -Major Bitcoin Lightning wallet provider quits US market

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> I swear there was a new dex somewhere that let you do monero -> btc lightning maybe that could worj

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> BTW what's wrong with the xmr accepting registrars?

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Are they all overpriced

lol

Yeah, I am in the market for a new registrar next year (right now I have renewed Njalla), if someone finds one - plz tell me. I have seen 1984.is so far, but I don't want to have a domain at the same place I have my VPS.

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Oooh btc fees are only $1 now what a steal!

Also yeah, seems like at least the XMR VPS providers are all more expensive than their card-paid counterparts, which are inaccessible to me.

Daybreak "IG he hasnt started yet" definitely has started, a paper was submitted and awaited review, another related paper here github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/b…-spend-with-fungibility-defects.pdf

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> That's awesome! ☺️

<m​onerobull:monero.social> santa isnt real, there is no easter bunny and there is no Monero DEX (aside from Haveno, BasicSapDEX and soon Serai)

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Yeah it was one of those

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Basicswap or serai I forgot the names

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> :(

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Incognet.io has .coms for $15 us

<m​onerobull:monero.social> i dont think serai will have lightning

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Same price as namecheap (without first year discounts)

<m​onerobull:monero.social> i also dont think basicswapdex will have lightning

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> servers.guru/anonymous-vps servers.guru selling 2 GB ram vps for 5 euros

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Seems a bit better than some of the $10 USD for 1 GB vpses I've seen

Yeah, that is about the price level I have seen, 5 euros does seem unusual!

<daybreak:nitro.chat> Incognet.io has .coms for $15 us <- I was under the impression that it was akin to Njalla - registering them to themselves.

Is Guru reliable? Is there some catch? I have seen Kyun like this, but someone on the chat I know had complaints about it.

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Apparently that's the cause 😔

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> it's on kycnot.me 🤷‍♂️

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1e65dv…utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

<d​aybreak:nitro.chat> Also @monerobull#2244 vouched for it lol

Yeah, I thought about transferring from Njalla to a "normal" registrar, just inputting fake info.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> guru re-sells hetzner without the kyc bullshit

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so yes, very good

<3​21bob321:monero.social> you have a discount code also with them?🤪

<k​arano:poddery.com> hello guys !

<k​arano:poddery.com> i have a question for you all !

<k​arano:poddery.com> what do you think ,what should be the real value of 1 xmr right now in USD terms ?

<k​arano:poddery.com> $250 , $300 or $500+

<k​arano:poddery.com> i think it should be atleast $320 if i rely on historical trends

<k​arano:poddery.com> or maybe qtleast $250

<k​arano:poddery.com> or maybe atleast $250

<k​arano:poddery.com> what if we start a movement where we post the real price of monero everywhere ?

<k​arano:poddery.com> what if we post the real price of monero everywhere ?

<k​arano:poddery.com> maybe we could start a movement where everyone tweets/posts the real value of monero (i.e $250-300) and pledges not to sell below it :)

I totally agree with you and ready to sell you 1 XMR for $500+

I don't care about the value as long as it stays stable. We don't need growth, we need to stay the same for convenience as a currency.

<k​arano:poddery.com> yeah but i will purchase for cheapercurrently till price reaches $500 👀

<k​arano:poddery.com> currently in crypto space for more people to adopt that crypto , that strategy doesn't work unfortunately.

I just don't like it when people want to speculate on a currency :(

<k​arano:poddery.com> for creating network effect , price is one main factor which attracts more people.

<k​arano:poddery.com> the long term goal would be stability ofcourse

<k​arano:poddery.com> yeah but i will purchase for cheaper currently till price reaches $500 👀

I just hope the price of my stash stays the same.

Ironically, it technically grows - my own currency tanks...

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if you put in more than 100€, you get 10€ of free balance

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> I think Monero is actually pretty fairly valued

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at 150-160€ i dont really buy more, only below 130€

<k​arano:poddery.com> store everything in XMR !

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> at 100€ i did a thing that is very very rare for me and took a selfie in front of the price chart

Why does an absolute price even matter? As long as it is convenient to use as a currency, aka isn't unstable.

<k​arano:poddery.com> you should keep on buying till euro200

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and went all in with all i had access to

<a​mmortel:monero.social> I Don't Know, How much are you willing to pay for one?

<k​arano:poddery.com> its a long term goal

<k​arano:poddery.com> maybe it will take another 20 years for crypto to realise the goal it was made for

<k​arano:poddery.com> i'll certainly keep accumulating till it reaches $250

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> im going to go all in right before serai

<k​arano:poddery.com> i'll certainly keep accumulating till it reaches $250 , hopefully within a year

<k​arano:poddery.com> sure

<k​arano:poddery.com> go all in now

Idk, seems like Monero is very much realizing that goal - assuming it keeps evolving in the right direction and doesn't get taken away like BTC did.

<k​arano:poddery.com> or do SIP

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i dont want to risk losing value bcs of a temporary dip so im holding off till serai

<k​arano:poddery.com> do SIP

<k​arano:poddery.com> spread investment over months

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i already did that

I am going to just keep a stash just big enough for current expenses plus a bit of a "cushion" in case I need to switch where I but iy.

<k​arano:poddery.com> i bought a lot when it dipped 100-120

buy it

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> this is just risk managment rn

<k​arano:poddery.com> the recovery is very nice

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> if it dips hard right before serai, i can buy a lot of new coins

Are you speculating on it or what?

<k​arano:poddery.com> you CANNOT predict BOTTOM

<k​arano:poddery.com> or if it will dip

<k​arano:poddery.com> or if it will dip below 170

I know some people who bought dollars or euro so that their savings don't depreciate, but with crypto it just feels wrong. Like you're being like those investors who only care about vessels for their finance.

<k​arano:poddery.com> i wouldn't say its wrong to be bullish on something for right reasons and making money of it

<k​arano:poddery.com> i understand your point , but thats just part of the market

I honestly don't care what the price is, as long as it doesn't fluctuate wildly.

<k​arano:poddery.com> even traditional fiat has forex trading

Seems like fluctuations would turn the service operators off more than a low but stable price.

<k​arano:poddery.com> ok noted ser ! you can hold as much you like

Sure, whatever. As long as adoption among services grows.

<k​arano:poddery.com> we could promote people to use self custody atleast and not hold any on a exchange

That is the only reason I am here.

<k​arano:poddery.com> atleast we get free from exchange manipulation of price

yeah, true. Given that the exchanged obeyed sanctions - I would not have been able to use them even if I wasn't concerned about KYC and its leaks.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i am not speculating, i am managing risk

<k​arano:poddery.com> that will be ensured

<k​arano:poddery.com> boasting about price doesn't harm the project much

Seriously, how are people even comfortable with this? As if your phone number, ISP and government services being KYC is not enough! They give out enough data for someone to take a microloan in your name if it ever gets sold or leaked!

karano, just as long as the growth is not rapid.

kinda funny to say that while my fiat savings are depreciating rapidly so I was in a rush to spend them...

<k​arano:poddery.com> i am not saying a insane value like in 1000s or about a 10x price 😅

<k​arano:poddery.com> some countries currency is deprecating , so its a good option for them to hold more crypto

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/abNbyzUbrzxSUNGBpfBTBQRd

<k​arano:poddery.com> i can't see any images the bull posts on matrix :/

<n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> Matrix.org images are broken yea

<m​onerobull:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/UycHEmEyvDWzFhmXMhbSFcmB

<n​ihilist:nowhere.moe> Yea can see it now :)

<k​arano:poddery.com> yes

<k​arano:poddery.com> not saying unrealistic numbers saylor says to pump his bags 😅

<k​arano:poddery.com> $250-300 is realistic

<m​onerobull:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/qIyXOWpHdKImELaYUVXPpRUH

<m​onerobull:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/vLcfkVXQjrkaXGuoSqbICXNB

<m​onerobull:monero.social> this should be the absolute minimum in terms of what is realistic

<m​onerobull:monero.social> doge would put us at $800

Just need Elon tweet

<k​arano:poddery.com> thats what i am talking about !! 😄

<k​arano:poddery.com> Elon won't

<k​arano:poddery.com> elon only tweets memecoins

karano, lol, that is exactly my situation) Bought a bit more Monero than my immediate hosting needs because of this.

<j​s:nil.im> Bitcoiners use lightning

<j​s:nil.im> Well they addressed it by adding Lightning and saying L1 should only be used to open/close channels and nothing else

<j​s:nil.im> Actually. With the discussion about ring signatures before. It makes me wonder how it compares to Lightning privacy wise?

<j​s:nil.im> You can work around that with watch towers

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> no they dont

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lightning has no real privacy

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/KldgIdwmyDMhSfCCqqUHbXSa

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/lLxizSOGSvMBisNoyAFNmQBV

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Lets check which darknet markets accept lightning

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Zero

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> in conclusion "bitcoiners use lightning" is a false statement and pure copium

Some of them do accept BTC tho, which is stupid.

<j​s:nil.im> Probably need to update client / server

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> yeah but even the ones that do accept bitcoin have vastly more L1 usage

<j​s:nil.im> That’s not true. It basically onion routes your funds.

<j​s:nil.im> You’re picking one specific place that took more Monero and are basing a statement around an entire coin around it? lol

<j​s:nil.im> From what I’ve seen LN adoption with merchants that take BTC is quite good. Go to a random bar where you can pay with BTC and there’s a high chance they take lightning.

<j​s:nil.im> Haven’t had any real world place take Monero yet, unfortunately.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> no i took 3 different places

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that all take monero and bticoin

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that all take monero and bitcoin

<j​s:nil.im> If you take places that are in the Monero bubble, no surprise they take more Monero than BTC, duh.

<j​s:nil.im> If you get into a coins bubble, that coin will always be the most used one there.

<j​s:nil.im> That’s true even for every shitcoin.

And if you're into random services rather than particular coins?

<j​s:nil.im> Random services BTC seems to dominate by a lot, with basically no adoption of anything else :(

I got into XMR not because I was familiar with crypto at all.

No, I'd say there's quite a bit of Monero adoption in VPSes. But domain registrars - ye :(

<j​s:nil.im> I got into Monero because it does what Bitcoin originally promised.

Thought of buying BTC inistally, like most people who go this route, but was concerned over fees.

<j​s:nil.im> Bitcoin instead decided to try to fix it via additional layers on top.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> js: Lightning privacy is not good: "We observe that an adversary needs to control only 2% of LN nodes to learn sensitive payment information (e.g., sender, receiver and payment amount) or to carry out the wormhole attack. " eprint.iacr.org/2020/303

<r​ucknium:monero.social> More papers: eprint.iacr.org/search?q=lightning+bitcoin+privacy

YES! While I only bought Monero out of necessity (card stopping working), I will keep using it even after I can use my debit card.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> one of them being the "Europes largest bitcoin store"

<j​s:nil.im> Thx, I’ll read that later! Something like that is exactly what I was looking for. Because the previous discussion about coin control being required to have privacy on Monero did concern me. Ideally we want something where you don’t need to fully understand the technology you’re using to stay private.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and chainalysis spy nodes can grab a fuckton of data

<j​s:nil.im> As they did for Monero, see the video.

At least it doesn't fuck Monero AS hard. But yeah, was interesting to learn what it was behind the marketing.

<j​s:nil.im> That’s the thing. I’m not convinced that not both LN and Monero are somewhat fucked, just in different ways.

<j​s:nil.im> In any case, it’s good to have two competing methods to try to make things more private.

<j​s:nil.im> Competition is always good.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Dandelion++ blocked the Chainalysis spy node from getting much info from the p2p network. Remote nodes used by users who do not run their own nodes, yes they got a lot of info.

<j​s:nil.im> But using remote nodes via tor should be fine, right?

<j​s:nil.im> But the real problem is that they managed to uncover the decoys IMO

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If you use Tor, they they cannot know your IP address. But the remote node can lie about the required network fee.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I think the stars aligned for them in the case study. They had a consolidation transaction when they knew the "target" owned many of the ring members in each of the rings.

rucknium, I do use remote nodes for now (low threat model and very small transactions), but always over Tor, so not like they have my IP.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Only seven percent of Monero transactions have three or more inputs

<b​asses:matrix.org> mentioned in moneroresearch.info/index.php?actio…OURCEVIEW_CORE&id=218&browserTabID= ?

As for fees - can this impact privacy? I never saw them being even noticeable.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> About two years ago some remote nodes were lying and asked users to pay fees of 1+ XMR

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Technically there is an attack when the remote node lies about the available decoys, but standard Monero wallets have a countermeasure that disconnects from remote nodes when the wallet detects the lying.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> rando: That paper is about p2p communication between nodes using Tor to communicate to other nodes. It is not about users using remote nodes over Tor AFAIK

<b​asses:matrix.org> ok, thx

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the only issue in monero was if you directly connected to their nodes, as far as i know, LN can observe as long as they are on the route and since most stuff goes to the big hubs, chainalysis can just work together with those

rucknium, ah, okay, never encountered that. I would have noticed if the fees were big at least.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Running a public node requires a lot of resources. When transaction volume is high, those resources are strained. So, people using remote nodes may find it difficult to sync and broadcast txs when tx volume gets higher.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> After a few incidents, devs put in a warning on the GUI/CLI wallet if the fees seemed abnormally high.

"Some of them do accept BTC tho, which is stupid." <--- any DNM that still accepts btc is either a honeypot, or /will become/ one.

or incompetent, which also happens

@j​s:nil.im "Go to a random bar where you can pay with BTC and there’s a high chance they take lightning." <--- good. Now check the NON-CUSTODIAL adoption metrics of LN.

Some legit vendors even use Telegram. The reason is simple, they want to pander to the client base.

There are not much bars that's able to use LN non-custodially.

LN's design sucks -- it pushes the merchants into custodial wallets. Which is, unironically, bitcoiners re-inventing the banking.

Could you elaborate on that? Aren't there non-custodial variants?

BlueyHealer: there might be non-custodial variants, but the running-an-LN-server as a requirement is a no-go for non-techies, especially like the establishments such as bars.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> non custodial lightning is a very low percentage of users

Running an LN server is no joke -- it has to be on all the time, no downtimes, ever. You have to have watchtowers or whatever the fuck, for apparently not getting hustled out of your coins.

Lots and lots of un-conscienable mechanism details that comes with LN.

No bar owner is doing all of that.

And, when I look at LN wallets that are marketed towards "real-world" establishments, I see that MOST of them are custodial.

Bit-bigots rationalize it, saying, "it is for the adoption bro." Not realizing that custodial-adoption of bitcoin doesn't mean anything. They might as well using the credit card and the fiat banking network.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> credit cards are more private and way more secure than custodial lightning btw

But of course, look hard enough to rationalization arguments of bit-bigots and you will see "we need ngu!" snake rear its ugly head behind the veil.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Anyway, there have been a few papers about how to theoretically implement a Lightning-like layer on Monero, but IMHO it's not worth the R&D now because payment channel networks have privacy, scalability, UX, centralization and reliability issues that haven't been solved yet and may never be solved.

We should be focused on getting FCMP++ first.

Then we can square the circle of second layers.

ring-sigs are quite soon to be past their usefulness, imo.

especially the monero consolidation transactions stinks rn, imo.

monerobull, I wonder if there were already instances of individuals being sanctioned in Lightning.

rucknium, why would Monero need something Lightning-like?

BlueyHealer: presumably for getting "instant" transactions

SethForPrivacy had some good arguments for implementing a second layer on Monero.

The video should be up on youtube.

It was from 2022, or 2023.

k4r4b3y, wouldn't "instant" transactions be achievable if you accept them with no confirmations?

reorg stuff can happen with zero-conf on monero, afaik.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Avoiding the ten block lock would be nice. Anyway, second layer R&D was removed from the website's roadmap recently: getmonero.org/resources/roadmap

@r​ucknium:monero.social what was the reason for the removal? That the L2 on XMR is at least 3 years into the future or something?

"beyond the future consideration horizon" ?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> monero doesnt really need a second layer

<r​ucknium:monero.social> IMHO, lightning has a big problem with being the second tier of adoption. First, you need merchant and consumer to both be able and willing to use BTC. That alone is a big task. _Then_ you have to get them to use a bitcoin add-on with poor UX. Even with high on-chain fees, you have low lightning adoption. Just look at the data

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Rucknium: ive read an ai meeting summary on 4chan, was raising the 10 block lock to 20 really discussed as a potential thing that should be done?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> lol I wondered of people would start using LLM for that

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lightning also really doesnt work in a high fee environment as advertised

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> its nice to stay informed without reading the entire logs :P

rucknium, I mean it could at least be visually so.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> k​4r4b3y: Basically the Monero Core Team want Monero to scale on chain, so it doesn't make much sense to have a second layer on the "offical" roadmap

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> and that is a good thing

<r​ucknium:monero.social> monerobull: kayaba asked me how large the N block lock would have to be for an adversary with 30% of the hashpower share to have less than a 1 percent chance of maliciously re-organizing the chain more than N blocks deep. And I told him: 20 blocks.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Meeting logs are probably a good use of LLM AFAIK

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Since I am the keeper of the probabilities :P

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> how would that effect FCMPs?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> how would that effect privacy after FCMPs?

<j​s:nil.im> Isn’t everything encrypted like in Tor so that only the last node can actually do something useful with it? I think it’s not part of the original LN spec but a BOLT everyone implements that is basically required now.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> FCMP need to lock outputs for some number of blocks because transactions reference the merkle tree in a block to prove that the outputs they are spending actually exist. If the merkle tree in a block gets "erased" because of a chain re-org, then those txs become invalid

<j​s:nil.im> All the popular wallets are non-custodial? Blue Wallet even these days. Then there’s Muun, Phoenix, Breez - all non-custodial

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lol maybe in your bubble

<j​s:nil.im> Can you elaborate how it does that? It doesn’t match what I’ve seen.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…matrix.org/ZJVWYvawLOeMFJvMutLblnxt

<j​s:nil.im> You don’t need to „run a LN server“ in the sense you think what it means. Your phone is literally a node, there is no external server required. Yes, it means your phone needs to be turned on in order to receive money.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> 93%

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you are a tiny minority in side of what is already a very niche thing

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you are a tiny minority inside of what is already a very niche thing

<r​ucknium:monero.social> look at monerobull now. Bringing hard data to the table :D

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Even with a source, sort of

<j​s:nil.im> Sorry but if you use language like that, it shows that you made an opinion before looking at the tech and cannot make a fair comparison - which explains why some of the things you claimed are incorrect. Try having a neutral view on both Bitcoin and Monero. Both can learn from each other, but only if people are not fanatics.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> also, this data is biased towards hardcore bitcoiners (it uses nostr addresses as a source)

<j​s:nil.im> Kraken stopped accepting Lightning in some countries "for regulatory reasons"

<j​s:nil.im> Yeah that’s why there’s more and more lightning only wallets. Breez even seems to be specifically targeted at merchants.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> also because its usage was probably like 0.3% of the bitcoin usage but required more maintenance

<j​s:nil.im> It does if you have an open channel

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> nope

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> were you around earlier this year when ordinals made fees spike to $60 and every lightning channel with less than this became insecure and people lost funds?

<j​s:nil.im> This graph is so wrong that I don’t even know where to start. Lightning addresses. LOL. So what is this graph even showing? BTC locked in channels per owner?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> the ordinals spike was actually the event that made some hardcore bitcoiners realize that lightning wont solve anything

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> thebitcoinmanual.com/articles/ln-users-custodial-wallets

<j​s:nil.im> I was and it’s a solved issue because you can just CPFP the force close TX

<j​s:nil.im> There is one issue though.

<j​s:nil.im> If the fees are so high that the force close TX never makes it to the mem pool.

<j​s:nil.im> Happened to me for a channel that was very old and hence had a very low fee. In the end I managed to just broadcast the close and the CPFP and enough nodes accepted it to make it into a block.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> reddit.com/r/lightningnetwork/comme…lightning_network_survive_in_a_high

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i like how they have exactly zero real solutions

<n​ononynous:monero.social> The underrated problem of L2 is it will vapmirize onchain activity and so fees and so network security profitability

<n​ononynous:monero.social> The underrated problem of L2 is it will vampirize onchain activity and so fees and so network security profitability

<j​s:nil.im> I mentioned above that I was in this situation and how I solved it. How is that not a solution?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> you "solved" the issue by force closing with a higher fee or how do i have to understand this

<n​ononynous:monero.social> It also won't help to produce activity on-chain and so the anonymity set of users

<j​s:nil.im> Yeah it basically depends on TX rate being the same. Just that instead of every TX being on chain it has the same amount of channel opens/closes. In other words requiring much more adoption.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> current tx rate cant sustain bitcoin

<j​s:nil.im> I was in the worst case situation: My SSD dying and the backup predating some TXs. So I had to force close it to get my money out of the channel, as I lost control over the channel.

<n​ononynous:monero.social> Yeah but bitcoin is bloated of shitcoins and nft now

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> so you didnt solve anything? you still force closed during high fees

<j​s:nil.im> Some miners are blocking ordinals. Maybe more should.

<j​s:nil.im> Exactly. I managed to force close despite the high fees.

<j​s:nil.im> So the problem of „you’re fucked when fees are high and can’t force close“ was solved.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> no the issue is having to force close / get closed on while fees are high

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> to the point where you might lose the entire channels balance to fees

<j​s:nil.im> Nah it still cost me only like $1 or so

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> aka the issue of high L1 fees which was supposed to be solved by "just use lightning bro" isnt solved at all

<j​s:nil.im> BTW is there some documentation about coin management on Monero?

<j​s:nil.im> It feels scary that if you screw it up once you’re fucked.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> lol

<j​s:nil.im> Like if I combine coins doesn’t that make it worse because now I submitted proof that I control both?

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> that goes out the window after as little as one self-send

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> also, FCMPs make this even less of an issue

<r​ucknium:monero.social> js: Feather wallet has a good UI for coin control

<j​s:nil.im> So why isn’t it the default then that Monero does a self send?

<j​s:nil.im> Yeah still need to know how to do it.

<j​s:nil.im> My intuition would have been to split, not combine, coins. So that when I send something, I don’t create a new huge change.

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> "why isnt it the default that wallets automatically sign transactions" bro...

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Self-sending for better privacy (churning) has been a white whale of Monero researchers.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> AFAIK, people are hesitant to give "official" advice if it isn't backed up by mathematics.

<j​s:nil.im> Do you have a link to some research papers?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yeah

<r​ucknium:monero.social> monerofund.org/pdf/Borggren-Sept-20…rivacy-of-the-Monero-Blockchain.pdf

<r​ucknium:monero.social> from monerofund.org/projects/eae_attack_and_churning

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "White whale" is from Moby Dick, where the whale kills the captain chasing it.

<j​s:nil.im> Thx!

<j​s:nil.im> Lots of stuff to read after work :)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> js: There are more Monero-related research papers at moneroresearch.info

<n​ononynous:monero.social> Monero randomizes UTXO selection, coin control is extra hygiena for lowkey users

<k​arano:poddery.com> nice

<n​ononynous:monero.social> Where can we find chainalysis node IPs ? I need to bootstrap a new one I might waste their bandwith

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 1sec

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 96.43.139.226

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 96.43.139.226:18089/get_info

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its online

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> is this real node or just a proxy

lol

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> chainalysis did use, at least partially, proxies pointing at real nodes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 🤷‍♂️

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats playing devils advocate

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ofrnays rupee: is a fed

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Says*

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Who runs 10(+?) Nodes, then quietly abandons them, leaves dns pointing to them, and is a ghost for 7yrs while gingeropolous: irresponsibly (or intentionally) continues to point his dns at them repeatedly

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yes, officer, it was all a mistake /s

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ginger also un-pointed his dns and tried to hide the ip

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> We are going after gingeropolous , but there might be 1000s of such asshole nodes out there which simple mode gui might be connecting to

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> When removal of simple node from gui ?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We only learned of the ip bcuz we checked before asking ginger, which was before he deleted it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There are hundreds/thousands in simple mode, for sure

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> And is a known issue for years

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There are also spy/decoy nodes to help defeat dandelion

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (p2p)

dandelion?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Dandelion++ is a protocol we use to hide the ip if the node that first broadcasts a transaction

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Spy nodes sybil you and your peers and are obviously never the initiator

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> you can see some of the spy node ips already active in 2020 in the chainanalysis video

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They are still active today, and unless youre running a blocklist, its likely that you are connected to one now

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Dandelion++ is okayish, ppl who are high value targets should anyways be using tor/i2p

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> There was one asmap pull request which has not got any attention might help users to connect to different networks and not be limited to a feed of asshole nodes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They purchased ~1000 (iirc) ip addresses, and all of them are just proxies to the same node

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Asnmap or something don’t remember what it was

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Better than dandelion is --tx-proxy + anonymous-inbound

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> blog.bitmex.com/call-to-action-testing-and-improving-asmap

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> monero-project/monero #7935

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: give some love to asmap , even optional to begin with would be nice to have

<m​onerobull:monero.social> Does feather automatically use Tor for broadcasting?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yea, but the node is what dictated whether tx-proxy is used

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Trocador and plowsof nodes have tx-proxy. Not sure about the others

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So if you use trocador or plowsof onion nodes, they dont receive or send your transactions over clearnet

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> simple node scans the network itself. so everyone could try and outflood the asshole nodes

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> but i do sway more towards the notion that simple mode (and bootstrap) should be retired

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> i mean, the counter in my head to this is that people just end up using simpler solutions, like exchanges or those weird-ass wallets you hear about on r/monerosupport

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> and those simpler solutions either end up being scams

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> or centralized via another manner. like, you find GUI frustrating, so you just get cakewallet, and use their nodes

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> but i guess at that point its like at least they're not connecting to a chainanalysis node....

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> but then there's the third angle which is like, surely we can figure out this remote node thing.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> like, could we do a dandelion with rpc-transaction-pushing?

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> instead of a node just eating a transaction from its rpc port and going "yeah ima just spit this out as a broadcast", what if it instead pushed it to another rpc node iits connected to on the network... or something.

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> .... but making this situation "better" by making remote-nodes "safer" implies that its OK to not run a node.... so perhaps this functionality shouldn't be in the core software, regardless of how "safe" it can be made

<g​ingeropolous:monero.social> uh oh. I'm forming a wall of text.