<x​apat1st4:hackliberty.org> xmr.sh

<b​asses:matrix.org> "Just run the following in your terminal" nah, you don't know what in the hell it could pull from that server with even sudo privilege

<b​asses:matrix.org> clone from source github.com/vdo/xmr.sh, read the source, then run the installation

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Nice domain

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Xmr.mx is best domain

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> its xmr in both directions

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Wait for xmr.xmr

<f​ede:xmr.mx> Amazon Registry Services, Inc. owns the .wow TLD

<f​ede:xmr.mx> xmr.wow

<f​ede:xmr.mx> .wow isn't for sale yet though :/ i've waited years

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I will buy any Xmr.something tld

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> I need to get more xmr.something

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> But most if not all good choices are gone

<s​iren:kernal.eu> xmr.finance 😉

<s​iren:kernal.eu> 10/10 scam domain

<b​asses:matrix.org> $1,000.00

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Hmmm I was looking for a tld little shorter

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…oad/xmr.mx/BEyvaeTaJcFUpuucDvdejXqW

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…oad/xmr.mx/qoZFBAtWelwzoirJUwXqrSha

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…oad/xmr.mx/XbSRQSOhijkiajNYPWGuZgub

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> Ok, i'm done giving cheap xmr domain 😂

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> oh maybe not

<r​avfx:xmr.mx> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…oad/xmr.mx/McAFcJXNyVAarDRNHHvmYIem

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Niocat ^^

Yes, many .cat domains are available :)

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I buy and sell domains on sedo

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> So easy to make money doing that

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Lovera: saw your Haveno video, very nice :D

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> Monero.town was nearly going to be monero.cat

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Did you see the fake news one too? 😁

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Fortunately he took it down by now.

<m​onerobull:monero.social> Pls elaborate

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> youtube.com/watch?v=RSyvV9dypmo

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> adslzone.net/noticias/seguridad/binance-hacker-datos-millones

<m​onerobull:monero.social> I see

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> I've remembered this exists and there seems to be some very recent activity in the repo so if you didn't know what was possible with TUI graphics now you know! (recommended watching with sound :)

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Official site: notcurses.com

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Repo: github.com/dankamongmen/notcurses

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> PS: dank (the guy behind it) is definitely one of a kind, just read the releases haha

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> PPS: here is a doom running through notcurses in the terminal: youtube.com/watch?v=a_w5rh3c76g

so everybody here uses matrix-mossad? how cute is that

<b​asses:matrix.org> what do you recommend?

me? I recomend not using matrix-mossad

<b​asses:matrix.org> What should we use sir?

<r​ottenwheel:kernal.eu> Ok boomer.

basses, IRC!

<b​asses:matrix.org> lol no

I unironically love it for its simplicity.

IRC just work

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I don’t know how much people have talked about FCMP++ yet but I was reading up on it and thought I’d simplify it based on my understanding after doing one article on carrot

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> kewbit.org/in-simple-terms-monero-fcmp-explained

we only listen to AI podcast summaries now

nice article 👍

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I started listening to that it’s pretty crazy, I was expecting it to last longer than 2 minutes though

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Really interested in the software that does that, is it a new revelation of Open AIs whisper

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It was so quirky, I actually don’t believe it was really yet.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It was so quirky, I actually don’t believe it was real yet.

Hi

Juliu, hi

Hello gingeropolous_. What's new?

nothing much. u?

I'm fill from the Chinese dinner I got and now procrastinating in front of my screen instead of working on my private project

private project? as in , you can't tell anyone about it or its about privacy...

As in it's what I work on in my free time for fun

ah right on. yeah ive been having some luck with my own private project. finally gonna see if we can compress random data

eyedeekay: hello. Anything exciting from the i2p?

You can't compress random data

thats what everyone thinks

Take a look at the No Free Lunch theorem

If you compress certain things better, you have to have less compression efficiency at other things

You might be able to compress random data, but only at the expense of blowing up non-random data even more (and not compressing it)

According to this theorem

eh we'll see. its a theorem after all. the ai bots helping me code tell me i'll have some "combinatorial explosion" , but they can suck it

But other than this theorem, random data is data with maximal Kolmogorov-complexity. Compressing it would mean having found a shorter algorithm to produce that data, which would mean the Kolmogorov-complexity was not maximal, which is a contradiction

ai bots tell me all sorts of things

things I thought was impossible before

now I know anything's possible

gingeropolous_, I am pretty sure your idea is doomed to fail, no matter what the idea is

:) at this point i'll have to prove it to myself, cpu cycles be damned

gingeropolous_, even with an exponential runtime, I am pretty sure you can't do it. Check out the Kolmogorov-compelxity, and think about what it means for a string to have the highest possible Kolmogorov-complexity

indeed

There has to be strings with the highest Kolmogorov-complexity per length. Those strings can't be described shorter than the Kolmogorov-complexity, other than the part of the algo that's included in the packer/unpacker. But this can only be a finite amount of stuff, and hence will be more and more unimportant the longer the strings get

You're now saying that this Kolmogorov-complexity is smaller than the length of the data itself

For something like "1 2 3 4 [...] 1000" you can clearly write a program that outputs this string and that's much shorter than the string itself. But for random data? Wouldn't that mean the data wasn't really random?

gingeropolous_ ?

perhaps.

sorry i don't want to get into it now. perhaps when i have something working

Sure, np

gingeropolous_, do you think P = NP, or P != NP ?

hi, is anyone here familiar with an issue with running monero-wallet-cli with a local node where the wallet refresh drops out after roughly 5 seconds? If i manually invoke "refresh" it receives roughly 15000-30000 blocks before saying "no connection to daemon." It seems to make progress each time so theoretically at least I could get the wallet synced up just by spamming refresh over and over but I don't want it to come to that, lol

for additional context, im running monerod v0.18.0.0 from apt on whonix workstation. it might be a whonix-specific problem but I'm not sure where to find logs to find whats causing the disconnect

what's monero?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> getmonero.org

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Private, decentralized cryptocurrency that keeps your finances confidential and secure.

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> 🤫

Lies, more lies

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What is the truth?

*reply to previous message - oh my god ive been stuck with this problem since yesterday but i just tried explicitly setting a daemon address and disabling SSL and now it doesnt drop the connection. what.

<3​21bob321:monero.social> who is monero ?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Email ceo⊙go

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Email ceo⊙go

im moreso confused how its able to receive blocks at all with SSL enabled, it shouldn't even be able to handshake in that case...

What is the truth? What is the meaning of life? Why do anything at all?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Nihilism?

I'm not quite serious. I was just pointing out the philosophical meaninglessness of certain questions

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Find your distraction from the absurd, then call it a "meaning"

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> :-)

And to answer your previous question: The truth is that Monero is based on unproved assumptions and hence the claimed security and anonymity is just unjustified trust

Also, Moneros are non-fungible, afaik. So much about privacy

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Non-fungible?

Yes. Individual Moneros can be distinguished, which is bad for privacy

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Are you talking about the cryptographic primitives or the things built on them like the group signatures?

The coins. Aren't it coins?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'll take the bait, how?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Sure, it works on a conventional input/output

I don't know how. I've not looked into it. Probably you'd need something like a zero information proof or whatever it's called, and I think that was only invented after Monero, so Monero does not have it

*zero knowledge proof

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Monero utilizes zero-knowledge proofs?

But of course even zero knowledge proofs are actually bullshit, like all of cryptography. But that's a different issue

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Look at Bulletproofs++

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Oh, so you disagree with the cryptographic primitives?

Yes

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What do you find wrong with the use of elliptic curves? Or something else is wrong?

But that has nothing to do with the other spect like being non-fungible

*aspects

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> The use of RingCT and ring signatures implements fungibility

Elliptic curves are an unproven assumption

likely incorrect

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> All coins are indistinguishable from one-another

Not as far as I know. That's true for zCash, but not for Monero

I think. I haven't looked into that aspect in detail

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm unaware of zcash's current implementation. What is it?

Don't know. I also haven't looked into that

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> You seem to have a concrete idea but haven't looked into anything

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Zcash also utilizes elliptic curves my friend

It has little to do with using elliptic curves over discrete logarithms

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Okay, what is Monero's weakness?

I have an idea of certain properties of certain crypto-"currencies" that I have read about

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Okay, can you explain?

All of cryptography's weakness is that it's a religion based on 100% trust in unproven assumptions that are likely false

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Oh, you're looking at cryptography itself

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Well, sure. All of math is built on axiomatic assumptions

Like I said, yes, but that has nothing to do with these other Monero-specific things

Well, cryptography is not built on math

There is not a single mathematical proof for any working crypto system

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Do you mean the issue with nonconstructive proofs

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> ?

(I do not consider one-time pad to be working since it requires an infinitely long, secretly pre-shared key. And secretly sharing information is the very problem that cryptography tries to solve in the first place)

I mean there is not ANY mathematical proof for a working crypto system, wether constructive or non-constructive

Not a single one. Not in any of the past 80 years

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> You're talking about discrete log

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Okay

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I agree with you

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What do you suggest for a solution?

I said I does not matter if you're using elliptic curves or discrete logs

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Discrete log and ECDLP

There is no solution. Cryptography does not exist

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What do we do then?

Don't know

Use seashells again!?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Yeah, I guess so

There's another solution: Simply not tell anyone

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Since you were brought into existence and forced to participate in the society you're in, can you fathom using the 'currently best' *attempt* at a solution?

But since you've started talking about the truth ...

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> It was more of a joke

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> *Assuming you're forced to participate

I know. Sadly my answer wasn't

Well, I suggest you read "Industrial society and its futute", and then you think about for how long you want to stay part of this society

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I've read it

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I agree with your point in how cryptography represents a religion

Damn, this evening I'm a complete doomer, ruining the whole positive vibe. Sorry

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I don't believe you are

Don't know. I can't imagine a positive future for humanity at the moment. So if we can't even think about how it could all work out in a positive way, then how should it ever happen?

Large corporations with AIs and the centralization of power really frighten me

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Well, Camus pointed out the idea of "philosophical suicide", in which we take a "leap of faith" and accept the absurd

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Well, Camus pointed out the idea of "philosophical suicide", in which we take a "leap of faith" and do not accept the absurd

All of philosophy is just mental masturbation to distract ourself from the fact that we're going to die and be forgotten

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> One being a means of existentialism: we create our own purpose in life

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> The other being the belief in a religion (there is inherent meaning to your life because you life for God and the afterlife)

I find religions absurd and childish

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I don't disagree

Indeed, you have to find your own meaning in life. Life is a Kobajashi-Maru test. No matter what you do, you'll die in the end

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I agree with Kaczynski in his anti-technology viewpoints

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I acknowledge that and I use that as a means of enjoying the meaningless existence that we are in

My meaning is solving P vs NP. Find your own. Not my fault this will destroy all of cryptography

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I live simply to acquire knowledge, hear the voices of others, and to live peacefully

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I live simply to acquire knowledge, hear the voices of others, and to exist peacefully

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Understood Juliu

The problem is that even Kaczynski had no answer what to do. His "back to the medieval ages" approach was just because he didn't know any better solution, as he wrote himself

I'm pretty sure we're in for a lot of trouble and misery soon

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Yes, I agree with his anti-technology viewpoints but I disagree heavily with his solution

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> As always

I'm trying to appreciate the Now more lately

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> His solution assumes a meritocracy (all anarchist viewpoints do)

It's human nature to want to improve and to be curious. I think his approach won't work

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> But considering the average level of coherence and intelligence in the human population, an attempt at a 'society' that represents Ted's anarchist and environmentalist ideas doesn't seem to work

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Along with what you said, it is human nature to improve

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I haven't considered that before

Maybe transhumanism and changing our nature is the only solution. But that would probably only benefit rich people

Honestly I don't like his environmentalist idea

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Please elaborate

I can't see a solution. So probably we're fucked. Maybe we should trust in god and let it happen ... But what if you're an atheist like me? Fuck!

Elaborate which part?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> On what you think about his environmentalist ideas

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I read it a few years ago so it is not fresh on my mind

I dont want to live like primitive cavemen where the strongest rules

Even thougn nowadays obviously also the strongest country rules. But not so much on a personal level

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Right, it is more of an entity

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Big Brother

Maybe Musk is right and the only solution is for humans to improve themselves to keep up with AI. But that would mean you'd be even more dependent on large corporations, which is suicidal

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Unfortunately, the means of production is usually dominated by the most powerful entity

I should look more into decentralization and DAOs

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> The best you can do is create your own GPU farm

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> But it is hard as nvidia constantly iterates and releases large improvements

Well, seems I have to become the most powerful entity. That's the only solution

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Start a fundraiser

That won't help

I just have to solve P vs NP. Can't be that hard

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm sure you can get buy with $3.50

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm sure you can get by with $3.50

Hm? I have a job to get by

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I mean to become the most powerful entity

Unlike you guys in crypto, I'm not working for McDonalds

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> :-) I'm still in education

<3​21bob321:monero.social> but i get a name badge

Working, or getting "educated" ?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Some of us are hackers and work for tech companies

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Well, waiting to graduate.

"Hackers"

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Working as well on a startup

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hackers, not crackers catb.org/jargon/html

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Im in a Hacker school

I didn't know that you just have to wait to graduate nowadays

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I'll later become a professional hacker

Sure, dude

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> and my mom will be proud of me

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Juliu, I don't find a large value in my current education. I am still forced to finish it regardless

My mom will never be proud of me, even if I cured cancer

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> LLm response: According to the Jargon File (catb), a hacker is someone who enjoys learning the details of a system and improving it or simply working around limitations.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Juliu that is both funny and sad, congratulations

Ye :/ I'm used to it

Did you know that hacking means pressing keys?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ain't no way

hm?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hacking doesn't necessary entail the pressing of keys

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Lockpicking in a sense can be considered hacking

It's where the word is coming from

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> You are using lockpicks and not keys, so you are not pressing keys

hacking = literally just typing

I mean keyboard keys, not what you think

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I'm not pressing keys, Skyler. I. Am. The key.

Are you talking to Jarvis?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hacking entails the pressing of keys

Not having to type would be neat

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hacker is generally used to mean: someone that enters computer systems in an unauthorized manner, usually with malicious intenet

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hacker is generally used to mean: someone that enters computer systems in an unauthorized manner, usually with malicious intent

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> This is not the definition that I am using when I say the word hacker

I know what a hacker is. I'm just talking about the origin of that word

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Originates from "hack" from the 1300s I think, meaning to cut in a rough manner

Look at you, hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect, immortal machine?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Maybe I should print that on my pcbs

Maybe

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I first saw that statement on a pcb

Somehow I always get the impression that people don't understand my references

It's from a game

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I looked it up, it is from something else

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Yes

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I wanted to clarify that I first saw it somewhere else

Yes, from System Shock 2, I think. Maybe 1. Don't know

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I wouldn't know, I don't play video games

Sad. You're missing out

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I used to. But I would enjoy when playing with others

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I don't have anyone to play with now 😄

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Don't have the time either

I think multiplayer games are a waste of time, and they leave you with an empty feeling

"No time" is always an excuse

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I was thinking that you would say that

I'm predictable :D

recanman, do you at least watch movies?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Something that is interesting: I did try playing a fast-paced game recently after stopping completely a few years ago, and I found myself shaking from the adrenaline after ~15min

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Not in routine

Which game?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> A shooter game, call of duty I think

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Or fort nite

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Recently is wrong, I stopped maybe 5 or six years ago, tried to play it two years ago

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Or fortnite

Hm, ok

I don't like modern mainstream games

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What do you recommend?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm curious what genre you deviate towards

I pretty much play all genres except for RPGs and strategy games

Well ok, also no sports games and no manager games

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> An example of a game you play?

Zelda - A Link to the Past. Best game ever made

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'll take a look at it but will not play it. Just curious what you're into

It's an old Super Nintendo game. Usually people know what Zelda is

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm not well-socialized nor familiar with culture

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm not well-socialized nor familiar with pop/video game culture

I also play stuff like Myst or like Resident Evil 2 Remake or like Portal 2. Just to give you an impression about different genres

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Portal 2 I am familiar with

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Okay, I understand

Nice. Game of the year 2012, if I remember correctly

Great game

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Single-player games with a final goal and story

Yes

You don't know Myst? It had been the world's best-selling game for many years in the past

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Haven't heard of it

(as far as I know)

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I've heard the name "Resident Evil" but have no idea what it is

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I don't really use social media or anything so I'm not up-to-date on the newest stuff

<3​21bob321:monero.social> wow

where am I and how did I get here?

There are so many different Resident Evil games now. Since Resident Evil 4 they went mostly towards action instead of atmosphere, which is sad. They used to be slow-paces, atmospheric survival horror games

nioCat, ask your mother

<3​21bob321:monero.social> nioc do you know alice

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Good question

Who the fuck is Alice?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Bob and Alice, they always seem to be talking

mom is ded

I was referring a song

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Eve always tries to eavesdrop

go ask alice, I think she knows

nioCat, well, then the answer to the mystery how you got here died with her

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Oh, ok Julio

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I know where it is from, just making a joke

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I guess it is Alice and Bob and not Bob and Alice

What about Charlie?

C is Cat

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> He bit my finger

The cat knows all the secrets anyway

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> nioCat how many cats do you have?

just 1 now

<3​21bob321:monero.social> from resident evil

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What is his/her name?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> If any

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Or do you call 'em "cat"

<3​21bob321:monero.social> it*

There's a cat in Resident Evil?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> referring to nioCat's cat

going out soon to take care of another one, 3x/day

<3​21bob321:monero.social> only dogs

Is his cat a zombie?

I call all cats boo boo lol

<3​21bob321:monero.social> residentevil.fandom.com/wiki/Zombie_Dog

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Very interesting

Did you know Schrödinger had a dog and not a cat?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> "boo boo"

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Wasn't aware

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I didn't know whether he had a cat

Apparently not

nice nickname

recanman, what are you studying?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Not able to declare a specific field currently

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Will be able to soon

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> In which then I will declare computer science

?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> My secondary interest is Chemistry although I don't know if I will study that formally in a university

<3​21bob321:monero.social> can you make pagers?

0_o

Computer science is a scam. Computer scientists optimize easy problems slightly and are super proud of themselves. But the moment the problems get a bit harder, they start laughing hysterically and run away, pretending it can't be done without even trying

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I don't have much interest in the theoretical

<3​21bob321:monero.social> ctrl alt defeat

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I feel that your statement is too general

It's true

Juliu: what makes you think people havent tried

P vs NP is still not solved after how many years now?

well what makes you think people havent tried to figure it out

fmira, the fact that me meantioning that cryptography might be a hoax makes people angry instead of agreeing

They already accepted it without even trying

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Whether there is active research currently or not I am not aware of

It's literally learned helplessness

so its the three-body problem also something that people gave up on?

or is it just something nobody could figure out

All that 99.99% of computer scientists do is "solve" already solved problems and ignore the unsolved ones

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I understand what you're implying Juliu

fmira, there is no closed-form solution for the 3 body problem, as far as I know, and there's a proof for that

Unlike cryptography, which has no proofs

(because it's a hoax)

>which has no proofs

have you read any paper

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> It has proofs but it is built on a "faulty" assumption

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> An assumption that will most likely in my opinion never be broken

<b​asses:matrix.org> reading is a hoax

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> with classical computing

fmira, there is not a single proof for a working crypto system

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Because DLP + ECDCLP do not have their "hardness" proven in certain contexts

recanman, I will break that assumption within my lifetime

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Saying that all of cryptography is a hoax as a result of that connotes something different than that

It doesn't

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> One side of me would like to see the worldwide disaster if/when that happens

There's no disaster when you don't tell anyone

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Both fmira and I understood a certain idea when you said that

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Why not release it?

Why would anyone do something that stupid?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> As you asserted before, life is meaningless

Maybe it's already broken and we just don't know

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> And therefore, this is just another random event in our random, meaningless existence

I never said that life is meaningless. I agreed that you have to assign your own meaning to it

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Oops, sorry about that

<c​rispycat:matrix.calitabby.com> define meaning

np

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> life is meaningless you say? then why can't I walk in two opposite direction at the same time? CHECKMATES ATHEIST

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> crispycat: definition accepted by most: inherent significance or philosophical meaning of living (or existence in general) <- wikipedia

Water is wet. Checkmate theists

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> lmao

tbh as far as ive understood if P=NP then AGI becomes significantly more achievable from what i heard which might be a bigger deal than all the crypto breaking

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I would say crypto breaking is a much bigger deal

fmira, could be

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> proving P=NP doesn't particularly guarantee to help finding non polynomial algorithm.

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Depends on how easy it is to break conventional systems

I would say that playing perfect Super Mario is the ultimate goal

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hedonism works for some

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> Have you made any progress in cracking them? I’m not being snide.

Why else would anyone do hard research? Fame? Bullshit. Achievements and medals? Cheap paper/metal so they don't have to give you real money. But playing videogames perfectly, that's something else!

i guess trying to work on the P/NP problem has the inherent problem that you could spend your whole life on it working on something where in the end P might not equal NP and that would suck

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> math.brown.edu/johsilve/Presentations/WyomingEllipticCurve.pdf

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> This is a good intro

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Haha, yes fmira

hardhatter, I have the feeling that I'm making progress since 5 years, and I'm working on it since 5 years, but realistically speaking everying I try fails. Still

fmira, P is obviously equal to NP

how is it obvious?

<b​asses:matrix.org> define define (Jordan Peterson)

fmira, there's a black box. You can't see how it's operating inside. It has n binary inputs and 1 binary output. Only 1 input combination is valid. How many tries will you need on average to find it?

basses, go and make your bed and clean your room!

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Easy, let n = 1, P = 1P, P = P by identity property

recanman, you forgot a case

<b​asses:matrix.org> bedtime story!

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> What's the case Juliu

recanman, P = NP <=> N = 1 or P = 0

You forgot the P = 0 case

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I'm just joking, I'm not following the premise of the problem

fmira, are you still there?

recanman, and I wasn't joking?

Juliu: 2^n-1 right

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Oh, sorry, didn't catch that

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Yes, you're right Juliu

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I wasn't looking to iterate on all solutions :-)

fmira, almost, but not quite. But since it's so close, let's say it's correct. So roughly speaking the same number of input combinations, right?

ya

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> I wouldn’t go as far to as all of CS is a scam but gosh hahah there’s a lot of people in CS that just assume something can’t be done without actually proving it.

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Just like saying cryptography is a hoax, it is a very harsh statement, and without additional context, you come to assume a certain idea

fmira, ok. Now we make the box be made out of glass. You can see inside. You have an infinitely large (as a factor) information gain about what's going on inside. Believing that P != NP is equivalent to believing that making the box from glass does not bring us any significant benefit

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I don't disagree with both ideas presented by Juliu

hardhatter, indeed

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> I wouldn’t go as far to say as all of CS is a scam but gosh hahah there’s a lot of people in CS that just assume something can’t be done without actually proving it.

recanman, Donald Knuth also believes that cryptography is a hoax. He said so in an interview ... indirectly ... with more polite words

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Interesting, good to know

Knuth said that he believes P = NP

although I found his reasoning a bit strange

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Using the word hoax directly without explaining what you intend to mean behind it gave me the impression that you had no idea what you were talking about

I say "hoax" instead of "scam" because I believe that it's note done intentionally

*not

fmira, can you understand what I mean?

Juliu: im not exactly sure if the "information gain" would in all cases make the problem more easily solvable in that analogy but i wonder if it could end up like Godel's incompleteness theorem where on the surface it sounds like its something that would be true but turns out to be not so simple in the end

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> To be fair I think a decent number of people in the crypto space acknowledge it’s just a practical method to achieve security and privacy until it eventually does get cracked

fmira, you think it makes no significant difference if we know how the box is evaluating our inputs or if we don't know? I think that's insane

well what if the way the box is evaluating inputs is so complex that its impossible to "predict" the correct output

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> To be fair I think a decent number of people in the crypto space acknowledge encryption is just a practical method to achieve security and privacy until it eventually does get cracked

fmira, Gödel's incompleteness theorem is actually quite easy. It's the same as the Halting problem and at least 2 other famous things in math. It is simply about having at least 1 case that contradics itself, so we can follow that it can't be done in general. It might still be doable for almost all cases though. But I don't see how that has anything to do with the black/glass box

fmira, yes, you are absolutely correct. It matters how complex the evaluation process of the box is. I left that out for simplicity reasons. But we know that the box does not take more than polynomially many steps to evaluate the inputs

oh okay that makes sense, sorry i havent actually looked at the P vs NP problem that much before but that clarifies things

hardhatter, sure, the real cryptographers do. But you have no idea how many channels banned me for telling the truth about it

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I did not make the connection with Godel's incompleteness theorem before, thanks for explaining that Juliu

fmira, if the box would take longer to evaluate - like for example evaluating what the next perfect move is in a game of chess - we couldn't simply crack it in polynomial time since the checking itself is already way too complex. It's beyond P and NP, and there's even a proof that it is definitely harder

recanman, there's a Youtube video about category theory or something like that, that has those 4 things (Gödel, Halting, ...) as examples for different things that are actually all the same

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> Well when somebody cracks their favorite encryption protocols they’ll find out hahaha

Hardhatter, what do you mean?

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> When the people who just assume established encryption protocols can’t be cracked, eventually have those protocols get cracked they’ll find out they can infact be cracked

Juliu: i still dont see how you can know that all outputs can be reversible to the inputs in all cases even if the complexity to evaluate an input is in polynomial time

*that that can be done in polynomial time

Hardhatter, but how would they know if it's cracked or not? Maybe Bitcoin is long cracked and we just don't know it

fmira, the box only has 1 output. It's either zero/false if the input combination is wrong, or one/true if the input combination is the only correct combination

The box is pretty much just a password-checker, and there's only 1 valid password

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> Ohhh I was jokingly implying the cracker would also make it obvious that it’s been cracked by pwning everything.

<h​ardhatter:monero.social> But yea the cracker may never reveal that it’s been cracked

But shouldn't it matter a lot if you can or can't see how a password is evaluated???

actually... hm.. if theres only one binary output it DOES feel like you can step backwards to find the answer

You can literally see how the box is doing the evaluation process when the box is transparent. And when the box is black you can't see it. And you think both are effectively equally hard???

I consider that nuts. Which is why I am saying that it is obvious that P is equal to NP

im not saying the glass one is equally hard

But the belief that P != NP is equivalent to the belief that glas box and black box are roughly equally hard to crack

okay wait i think its clicked for me.. that WOULD be pretty weird actually huh

Brute force takes 2^n (= black box). The best known methods for solving a SAT problem (= where you can see 'inside') is not much faster, and will stay slow when P!=NP

So both are pretty much equally hard to solve? I call that nonsense

Seeing inside give us a hugh information benefit and hence should reduce the time to crack it not only by a little bit