<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol rotten reacted to his own post 🥴

<i​love9999:matrix.org> how do i make a community of in person monero traders

<i​love9999:matrix.org> monero for cash

<i​love9999:matrix.org> without getting my door kicked down by law enforcement immediately

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I don't think monero has so bad reputation, what country do you live in?

<i​love9999:matrix.org> a country thats run by jews

<t​hiago18:matrix.org> Better run by jews then jhiadist

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> how do you guys rate matrix/element privacy from 0 to 10?

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> 8 maybe? It’s pretty good w decentralization but your profile can still be correlated across multiple rooms and logged like irc since they’re tied to the same profile/identity.

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> Simplex Chat is awesome in this regard, the rooms are entirely p2p (doesn’t even require home servers, don’t get more decentralized than that lmao) you can anonymously join rooms and it gives you a new anonymous profile name by default and there’s no identifiable link to you whatsoever unless you fail w opsec and drop hints haha. It’s got other cool features too like tor o<clipped message>

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> nly message relay servers by default, two separate servers for inbound and outbound messages, stores all chats locally and more.

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> Found it pretty neat and definitely worth checking out.

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> 8 maybe? It’s pretty good w decentralization but your profile can still be correlated across multiple rooms and logged like irc since the chats are tied to the same profile/identity.

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> Simplex Chat is awesome in this regard, the rooms are entirely p2p (doesn’t even require home servers, don’t get more decentralized than that lmao) you can anonymously join rooms and it gives you a new anonymous profile name by default and there’s no identifiable link to you whatsoever unless you fail w opsec and drop hints haha. It’s got other cool features too like tor o<clipped message>

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> nly message relay servers by default, two separate servers for inbound and outbound messages, stores all chats locally and more.

<e​xclaim3127:envs.net> Found it pretty neat and definitely worth checking out.

My issue with Simplex is that for now it is effectively centralized, although they're apparently planning on adding other providers onto the default list in addition to people already being able to add their own. Also really afraid of enshittification because of venture capital, really hope it doesn't though.

Also easy to host a server for.

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> yes it seems good, creating invite links works almost like creating new subaddresses for monero account, the concept is interesting for sure

A feature I really like is that the link for adding a contact guarantees you'd use the right public key. It is like checking the key fingerprints immediately after adding a contact but just ensures it's done.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Hey guys.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> I would like to throw an idea here.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Recently I thought that an alternative to chatgpt with a more privacy focus and possibility to pay with monero would be interesting.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Basically hosting our own LLM probably llama or similar, making sure that chat are private and accepting monero as payment.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Would anyone be interested into something like that?

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> This is just an idea at the moment.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Let me know if this is not directly enough related to monero and I'll post in offtopic instead.

I thought AI hype train derailed already.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Not trying to do anything hyped. Just providing alternative for privacy conscious people.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> But happy to be told if it is useless.

People apparently see use it it, so my feedback can probably be ignored. I don't get AI and see it as a hype train.

"This is how, with a few simple tricks, a loaf of white (or black) bread can be turned into a trolleybus... But what for?"

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> I think it has its uses. Mostly as an alternative search engines to me. Good for docs. But definitely overhyped for sure.

I like its use for summaries of things that are overly long, but only those that are like this for no reason, not the long essays that just have a lot of details to say.

As for search engines - would rather not.

<b​asses:matrix.org> inspired by that reddit post of similar service?

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> I missed that. Can you point it out?

<b​asses:matrix.org> old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/1g…ive_on_nanogpt_use_all_the_big_llms

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Oh wow. Alright. Then forget it hahaha. I was too late ;)

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> However it seems they just use token so your chat still go to chatgpt I was thinking more of self hosted LLM.

<s​ervers.guru:matrix.servers.guru> Nvm they have the self hosted one as well.

<b​asses:matrix.org> I mean they are running analytics on the website...

<b​asses:matrix.org> oh nvm

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Im a Monero only guy. Where is the XMR payment option? All I see is Nano. real disappointing

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I say use SimpleX Chat. Matrix is 1 - 2 out of 10

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Homeservers can identify you from metadata. Most public homeservers are hosted using cheap instances from Hetzner. Germany was great during WWII but now they’re cucked ha ha

I am a Monero-only person online, even if not entirely by choice.

Homeservers' problem is how omnipresent matrix.org is, it has an eye seemingly everywhere :/

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> Germany hosts the most number of monero nodes btw

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> true

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> what about xmpp/jabber? it's old and has many users, not everyone has SimpleX

knownsec, same for Tor nodes. It, Netherlands and the US seem to be the biggest.

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> One of the reasons why I host my own node!

I like XMPP because it's easy to host, very unlikely to enshittify and the metadata problems are pretty easily addressable.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> plowsof xmrscott this is the second this user is openly showing support for nazism. I'm pretty sure this is against libera chat rules. Please proceed to ***CENSOR*** him.

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Did I join the community at a bad time?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> mhm. as a first impression I would say they were better time. It's not particularly a bad time tho

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> in general i mean

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> SyntethicBird is a weirdo. Don't worry about the schizo

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> No

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> a week ago it wss invite-only

Schizo here is you - being either an edgelord or something much worse.

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> Germany hosts the most number of monero nodes btw <<>> because people use hetzner for vps

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nazi / political shit is offtopic here

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> plowsof xmrscott ^ I think that's enough of an hint he is a troller

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I'm not censored this much on X so why would I be here?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I dont think he's trolling

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And he's far from the only nazi here

Because Musk is a cartoon villain.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Markus: there are more channels you can explore, this one is often offtopic and flooded.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> our rooms are focused on topics. This in #monero

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Dont bring your political jibber jabber here

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I am a monero maxi

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> This is a decentralization revolution with privacy at the forefront

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> There are more?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> when I joined earlier today there was a guy that didn't seem to like jews 🤣

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> so, maybe it's a common thing here

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And im a jew

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> That sounds dreadful

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> You're not a banker so I don't care

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> don't care its ethically wrong, libera prohibited and illegal under swedish law (on which libera chat operate)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If u wanna fight, u can find me in dm

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Not that you are a jew, but the comment about it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If its not about monero, dont post it here

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Everything was going fine until SyntheticBird the schizo derailed this chat

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> #monero-community:monero.social #monero-community-dev:monero.social #monero-dev:monero.social #monero-offtopic:monero.social #monero-research-lab:monero.social #monero-research-lounge:monero.social

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Idc about peoples political affiliations. Not my problem. Going offtopic with them is. Dont pollute "monero" with "my country is better than yours"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Monero doesnt give a fk about your country or band of incels

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> No man should be cut off of the system for what he says or supports. Banning me is ironic like the centralized exchanges that are banning Monero

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You cant stop a jew from using monero, and you cant stop a nazi from using monero. Go cry a river about your beliefs elsewhere. This room is about monero, not about history

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So stfu about non-monero related topics

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> All I talk about is Monero

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> you get kicked from -dev for talking about the weather, you get kicked from -community for talking about the weather

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> THERE IS NO STOPPING THE MONEROLUTION

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> fallacious arguments after fallacious arguments. you must really have nothing else to do in your life

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Feel free to keep talking about monero - without adding in your politics

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I'm sure theres a monero-politics rooms somewhere on discord or telegram

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Half are invite only

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> hold i'll invite you

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I’ve had men in suits visit me for speaking about Monero not my politics

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Monero is more threatening

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Good for you

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Did they bring strapons?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> Markus: you should have received 4 invites

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Spreading the word of Monero and educating people is what I do

I would be interested by some groups also if possible dear bird :p

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nobody cares about threats. Real slowly: this room is for monero, not politics

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mollylucy, the same rooms are avail on irc

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> MollyLucy by groups you mean channels ?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> #moneo-offtopic for example

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> yeah like ofrnxmr said irc user don't need invites

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> #monero-offtopic

the private telegram/discord channels yes :)

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> #monero-offtopic

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> #monero-research-lab

I'm also gonna join the irc groups, thanks!

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> #monero-lounge

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> #monero-dev

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> #monero-community-dev

<3

<b​asses:matrix.org> you can't rate services this way, all of them have their own threat model, you have to define your threat model then pick an instant messaging app that suites you.

<b​asses:matrix.org> privacyguides.org/en/basics/threat-modeling

<b​asses:matrix.org> privacyguides.org/en/real-time-communication

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> MollyLucy: enjoy

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> fwiw I like to also rate the real ability and seriousness of a service at providing its threat model guarantees.

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Using the internet in any way is risky and if your threat model is high enough no service you use will help

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I only use mullvad /s meme

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I only use mullvad but unironically

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Mavrick, how do you use xmr?

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Cake Wallet

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Exodus on PC

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \> Complain about internet insecure and importance of threat model

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> \> Use a proprietary wallet

<b​asses:matrix.org> macOS

<b​asses:matrix.org> too

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> mamma mia

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I'm fully doxxed schizo

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Like I said, I’ve had men in suits visit me already

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Were they playboy bunny suits?

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> What are you yapping about?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You said you had men in suits visit. I asked if they were playboy bunny suits.

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> You're trolling

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> ? Not really

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Are you going to Monerotopia next year?

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I can't make it this year

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Would be a more interesting story if yku said "yes"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> This year?

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> You're an interesting person

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Oh. Next year. Idk. I dont plan further ahead than the next day or so

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thank you

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> You should relate considering the attacks launched on you

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The attacks against me here were and will always be pathetic and not worth losing sleep over

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I've had much worse drama irl, even during the same time. Bot spamming is kind of hilarious tbh

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> We will never see something like this again as people will focus on privacy and there will be too many targets

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Nothing is going to beat monero, I’m all in and can’t imagine a world where people don’t value privacy

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Most people don’t know a “Monero” even exists

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I dont think ppl will use monero because its private, but because it works and is safe

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Privacy is a nice buzzword, but most ppl dont care about it. People _do_ care about their bottom line

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Bitcoin is a public bank account

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Parents like to tell kids "im broke" when asking for allowance. You cant do that when you use btc

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Bitcoin isnt used as a currency therefore it wont have as much demand as say Monero will. Its swept the dark web and the community is constantly innovating

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Businesses like to keep orders and sales / partnerships private from competitors. cant do that with btc

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> No one uses Bitcoin. The funniest part is people speculate on it being a currency

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Maybe do your Monero shilling outside of the Monero rooms so it's not a circlejerk since you love to advocate for it so much?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Monero won't win because its "a privacy coin", it will win because it is safe

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> I do on X

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> @moneromavrick on X

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> I'm thinking Wownero has a good chance in blowing up, afterall, it looks like Monero is getting delisted and banned in certain places.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> ... cant a guy get a little jerk sometimes? Its lonely out here

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> How long until governments realize you cannot ban an idea

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Drug dealers will launder using Wownero so yes

BTC has considerable fees so not really usable in transfers like I have - around $5.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I think they already realized, thats why there is so much attempt at smoking the implementations before it blow up.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Btc fees are the same as monero tbf

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> It's that what bitcoin was first used for, crime.

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Isn't that what bitcoin was first used for, crime.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 0.00004xmr 0.00004btc 18.4m 19.5m

ofrnxmr, I thought they weren't cents or fractions thereof.

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Privacy coins are just now what bitcoin was 7 years ago.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> BlueyHealer, fees are the same on atomic units but the value of bitcoin made it so these fees are way higher

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Theyre only cents because xmr is valued at 155usd. If xmr was valued at 70k fees woukd be $2.8

Yeah, but right now it isn't.

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Perhaps not even 2.8 because of the dynamic block size

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Government bans have worked. Only the future will tell if we were successful in creating a large Monero circular economy. This is our hope

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It will be once the supply is distributed and used to require value transfer / storage above 3b

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Doesnt work as great as it sounds

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Stressnet barely moved the fee, if at all, with 7mb blocks

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Monerica, XMRBAZAAR, Monero Market. We need more

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> articmine must be stressing

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> But then how do you ban it? You just rename, fork it? Maybe under a different name its legal again

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> fork it, lose its value, governance chaos, trust issues, troller flooding, code maintenance challenge => it will die

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The block penalty seemed tk be strange as well. Never penalized the whole reward (or even like 10% of it)

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Governments are powerful and if they wanted to ban Monero completely they can

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Monero is still small

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Monero is only 3b market cap

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> I dont think so

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its just cold

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yea

<s​iren:kernal.eu> Legislation with catch-all phrases "Privacy enhancing cryptocurrencies, ring signatures, opaque blockchain" etc etc

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Governments cant ban a space internet

<s​iren:kernal.eu> It doesn't matter if you fork it, it will fall under those categories

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Screwing monero on the isp lvl is far from impossible

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> (starlink) from our saviour

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Dubai use deep packet inspection, or at least they did on certain protocol usage, the great firewall.

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Any VOIP protocols were inspected and filtered for years

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Country wide, they also did ban monero already too

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Governments have not completely banned Monero for now. Why? They use it themselves

<x​mrmavrick:crossbach.de> Monero is helpful for the CIA and other agencies

How tf can you ban Monero

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> I'm thinking Wownero has a good chance in blowing up, afterall, it looks like Monero is getting delisted and banned in certain places. <<>> b4 being delisted wow needs to first be listed lol

Maybe with selective enforcement lol

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> It's probably useful for corrupt Government officials to launder war crime funds from Blackrock

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> That's the kind of behavior that starts revolutions though, non specific law.

<l​ordx3nu:matrix.org> mavrick glows so hard lmao

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Don't we all tho

<b​asses:matrix.org> you can with everthing, Tor etc call it a terrorists tool,

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Tor project calls monero a terrorist tool? Sauce

<b​asses:matrix.org> indeed

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sounds like the pot calling the grass black

<b​asses:matrix.org> no, I meant labeling such "tools" as terrorists eanbling tools

<b​asses:matrix.org> no, I meant labeling such "tools" as terrorists enabling tools

<b​asses:matrix.org> or whatever they call it nowadays

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Sauce

<b​asses:matrix.org> wired.com/story/neo-nazis-flee-telegram-encrypted-app-simplex

<b​asses:matrix.org> gnet-research.org/2024/10/04/the-ri…cryptocurrency-for-terror-financing

<b​asses:matrix.org> And Tor uou know

<b​asses:matrix.org> wired.com/story/neo-nazis-flee-telegram-encrypted-app-simplex

<b​asses:matrix.org> gnet-research.org/2024/10/04/the-ri…cryptocurrency-for-terror-financing

<b​asses:matrix.org> And Tor you know

who will tell them how many Nazis there are on Facebook or Youtube)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Oh, you mean "they" call tor, monero, cash, pen and paper, in person conversations, handshakes, hugs etc terrorism

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I thought "they" was tor

Also wasn't, erm, certain 2021 event organized IN THE CLEARNET?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> (offtopic): fwiw simpleX owner is in good stance with that matter of fact.

<b​asses:matrix.org> That's why I keep warning about allowing/mentioning any thing that might be slightly illegal. There's a reason why Tor project are not facing *real* issues, they are simply avoiding it.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> dont mention gambling folks, rando might get triggered

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Everything is illegal yknow

We have a casino in our mall, lol.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Dont tell rando that.

They just call it "sports betting" for some reason.

<b​asses:matrix.org> yeah, I'm joking btw.

<b​asses:matrix.org> yeah, I'm not joking btw.

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Tor faces no real issues because its centralized and regular users dont run relays or exits

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It was created by the government

I wouldn't worry anyway because it's not my government anyway)

(but on a serious note, the deanon attacks don't seem passive from the description, so about established wanted people rather than casual browsing)

<b​b3883:matrix.org> If monero only allows a few transactions at a time (aka pending balance), how could someone even setup a platform in which users can withdraw their coins efficiently

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Having multiple inputs

<b​b3883:matrix.org> isn’t that limited as well?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> only unconfirmed funds are locked

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Each deposit is an input, so lets say 100 people sent xmr to the service, that would be 100 outputs that the service owned

<b​b3883:matrix.org> oh, i feel stupid now

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> The service would be able to send multiple withdrawals depending on the output skde

<b​b3883:matrix.org> thank you lol

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Size

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I thought you mean sending to multiple recipients

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> If someone deposited 1000xmr in one tx and 100ppl try to withdraw 10xmr each ; how many hours will it take ?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/469#note_26940

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> did you know that there a so much spy nodes and it is so easy to make? just proxy of the same nodes...

<b​b3883:matrix.org> and this is done through subaddresses right? in the monero RPC, i would utilize sub addresses? and each transaction to that would be its own input? or is there a specific means of generating an address in rpc for this? because to my understanding before there were limited inputs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If you split the tx first , not that long

<b​b3883:matrix.org> yeah that sounds like an issue to me as well, because the 1000 xmr would become pending until the first transaction cleared

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> How much time though?

<b​b3883:matrix.org> sweeping outputs?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No, any new incoming transaction remains a separate output until combined in a spend that consumes the whole output

<b​b3883:matrix.org> alright

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 16 outputs * 10xmr = 160 xmr, 1000 / 160 = ~6 tx

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 7 * 20min = 2hr20min

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Actually maybe less

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Easier would be 1000/16 > then 7 txs ; so 40min approx

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Can split it into 16, then spend directly from that, splitting each 16 again in the aftual spends

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Chainanalysis would be having a field day

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Make sure to use their node

<b​b3883:matrix.org> what’s this 16 number related to? now i am confused because you said each monero transaction is its own input or output wtv, but if the network limits ur wallet to 16 at a time, how does this work? (excuse me if im being slow)

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> 16 max outputs per tx

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> In this case, outputs = recipients

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> for 1 wallet address?

<b​b3883:matrix.org> so the limit for how many outputs u can combine to place into one transaction?

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> Any address

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No, the limit for that is ~148

<b​b3883:matrix.org> OH

<b​b3883:matrix.org> Wait no i understand

<b​b3883:matrix.org> you’re referring to pay to many

<d​ave.jp:matrix.org> 148 outputs ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> 148 max in, 16 max out

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Inputs

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> (100kb) max for inputs is ~148 inputs

<b​b3883:matrix.org> This feels like a very complicated thing to integrate into a website 😃

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> actually I think such services use separate subaddresses (maybe combined with integrated addresses) and they don't store funds in only one address

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> and btw the whole balance won't become locked anyways, so you don't have to wait even if all funds are in one address

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> correct me if I'm wrong

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I think it's actually easy, just have a look at monero rpc docs, it's actually simple and I tried using it, it's fast even with remote node

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> If someone deposited 1000 xmr at once, it will be 1 input

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> yes and it will be locked until confirmed

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Balances arent locked per address, but pet input

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> agreed

<b​b3883:matrix.org> yeah, integrating the monero rpc is simple like any other thing, the balance locking seems to complicate things for me though

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> balance locking is better describes as "locking of input/output used"

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Your whole balance doesnt get locked, the inputs you spend and receive does

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I was thinking about it too, then asked chatgpt and it clarified for me so I understood it easily

<b​b3883:matrix.org> so how do you effectively work around this? say my website had someone deposit 1000xmr and i had 50 addresses i needed to withdraw to, what would i even do because this wouldn’t be possible

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> Actually what I still don't understand is why you remain private initiating the transaction

<b​b3883:matrix.org> what did you do? some sort of queueing system?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> Actually what I still don't understand is how you remain private initiating the transaction, especially when there are so much spy nodes

<b​b3883:matrix.org> that’s sounding like my only option at the moment with from what i understand of the network

<b​b3883:matrix.org> queuing transactions and i guess breaking all the inputs using sweeping? then sending out the next group of transactions etc..

<b​b3883:matrix.org> i think you can just connect through tor

<b​b3883:matrix.org> i wouldn’t ever connect to a monero node without a tor proxy unless i owned the node anyways

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Youd withdraw to 16 at a time

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> You run you own node or use a node via onion or i2p

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> And if you run your own node, you configure it to relay tx via tor or i2p

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> you don't have to implement queuing, just send xmr, it become unlocked when confirmed, that's simple

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> you building some payment system?

<b​b3883:matrix.org> ur balance locks, like if i received 2 xmr and sent 1.5 using that input, my 0.5xmr would be locked until that payment confirmed so i couldn’t process a withdraw of 0.5 until after that payment did confirm

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> really I can do that? can it be configured through GUI?

<b​b3883:matrix.org> yes im building a payment system

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yea but probably easier to use a config file

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> oh srry, configure it for node, I understand

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> no, only your 1.5 xmr will be locked, 0.5 you can spend

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> so if you recieve 1.5 to your 0.5 balance address, while your 1.5 is locked until 10 confirmations, you can still spend your 0.5 balance

<b​b3883:matrix.org> i think ur wrong, the transaction seems to take the 2 xmr from that input, send it to the address, and send the change back to ur wallet aka locking the 0.5 xmr

<b​b3883:matrix.org> until that outgoing 1.5 is confirmed

<b​b3883:matrix.org> sorry if i described it poorly

<b​b3883:matrix.org> but yeah, this is my concern for the payment system im developing, seems a simple system like we would use with bitcoin isn’t possible, and im going to have to develop some queuing system

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> if you have outgoing 1.5 xmr - the locked amount will be 1.5 xmr, not 2 xmr or any other amount

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> just try sending some small amounts between your addresses and you'll understand how it works, I was concerned about this question too

<b​b3883:matrix.org> i have, when i send funds, all of the funds from the input i used to form the transaction are locked until my outgoing funds are confirmed

<b​b3883:matrix.org> this is why the wallet shows unconfirmed balance after i send funds to someone

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> yes, so it will not prevent you from spending remaining balance

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I think building payment system is easy because most of the work is handled by monero network and it's concepts

<b​b3883:matrix.org> i can spend unconfirmed balance still?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I think we talk about different things by "unconfirmed balance"

<b​b3883:matrix.org> yeah, i mean connecting to rpc and all that is as easy as any other crypto but monero is a lot different to work with

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> sorry my english is not perfect actually

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No

<b​b3883:matrix.org> it’s alright, i understand

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> the 0.5 (change) will be locked

<b​b3883:matrix.org> probably

<b​b3883:matrix.org> should i just schedule a from job to send 16 transactions then wait for their confirmation then send the next 16 etc..

<b​b3883:matrix.org> should i just schedule a cron job to send 16 transactions then wait for their confirmation then send the next 16 etc..

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Just check check rpc for the output to be unlocked

<b​b3883:matrix.org> isn’t the output becoming unlocked happen when the transaction is confirmed

<b​b3883:matrix.org> just so you guys know im not normally this stupid, don’t judge

<b​b3883:matrix.org> this is just new to me and confusing lol

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> image.png

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> actually there is a great feature in monero - integrated addresses, with that you can trace incoming transactions easily (give it specific payment id), it's first example on rpc docs page

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I think bitcoin doesn't have this feature

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Your "change" is a part of the transaction, and becomes unlocked at the same time as the transaction

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> why is part of transaction?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> again, his balance is 2 XMR fully confirmed

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> he transfers 1.5 XMR - it becomes locked

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> he still has 0.5 XMR - it is not locked and can be spend even if 1.5 is not confirmed yet

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> isn't it right?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> why is it part of transaction?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> again, his balance is 2 XMR fully confirmed

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> he transfers 1.5 XMR - it becomes locked

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> he still has 0.5 XMR - it is not locked and can be spend even if 1.5 is not confirmed yet

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> isn't it right?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> why is it part of transaction?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> again, his balance is 2 XMR fully confirmed

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> he transfers 1.5 XMR - it becomes locked

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> he still has 0.5 XMR - it is not locked and can be spent even if 1.5 is not confirmed yet

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> isn't it right?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> User A sends 2xmr to user B. User B sends 1.5xmr to user C. When User B sends this, it sends the 2xmr input and received change of 0.5xmt

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Same as if you use a $20 bill to buy something worth $15

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> one reason the change is locked, is to prevent spending which could expose which output was change vs which output was the recipients

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> I think I understand, but you can specify higher change with rpc? monero gui won't let you increase change amount?

<a​mmortel:monero.social> Change amount is equal to the difference between the input amount of the transaction and the actual amount you want to transact.

<a​mmortel:monero.social> If you use a bigger input amount, the change amount will be bigger

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> image.png

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> does that mean there are 75% of spy nodes?

<k​nownsec:catgirl.cloud> repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/c…als/-/merge_requests/469#note_26940

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> No, more like 10%

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Wait.. let me reread

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yes. Looks like yes

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Exciting

<3​21bob321:monero.social> Spy games

Hi

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Hi gf2718

Cool to use IRC channels and other clients :)

Question which I still don't have clear answer.

spy gaming

Do monero uses UTXO?

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Monero uses input/output model but very different in regards to UTXO

By definition, one cannot verify publicly whether an output is unspent, so Monero doesn't have the UXTO concept

^ gf2718

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> gf2718 if you'd like to read more, search 'RingCT'

dEBRUYNE: Ah yeah obviously ^^'

Ah yeeeah Ring signature!

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Ring signature is different than RingCT

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Pre-RingCT transactions are publicly-verifiable as their amounts are not masked

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Those are I think 2017 and earlier, something like that

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Similar names but very different concepts :)

m-relay: <recanman:kernel.eu> Yeah good point I see

dEBRUYNE: Ah yeah ok I see it's more based on some combinations of each input signature.

Outputs are essentially used as 'decoys', to create a ring for each input that is being spent

For an observer, it will not be clear which input is the real one and which one is the decoy

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Current ring size is 16

FCMP++ will substantially improve Monero's privacy protocol, see -> getmonero.org/2024/04/27/fcmps.html

recanman: Yes, ty for adding!

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Not just one decoy (impression I got from dEBRUYNE's wording)

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> gf2718 FCMP uses a newer cryptographic model that does not rely on ring signatures, see that link above

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> The Curve Trees paper is a good read as well. It is based on curve trees

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> The main issue with Ring Signatures is the need to keep a local index along with issues with the decoy selection algorithm

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Some research was done, here github.com/Rucknium/OSPEAD

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Statistical analysis due to decoy selection along with EAE has been the main issue

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Statistical analysis due to decoy selection along with EAE have been the main issues

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> youtube.com/watch?v=iABIcsDJKyM

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Oh, poisoned dust as well, the video I linked mentions that

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Is this the on I think I read on a kewbit blog that can use any number of transactions in the blockchain as proofs? Just wondering if it's the same as FCMP++

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Yeah, pretty much

recanman: I see how it could be read like that yes

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Is the ++ representative of the dandelion implementation with it

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> No

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Spend Authorization + Linkability

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Shortened to ++

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> >"FCMPs+SA+L", later shortened to simply "FCMP++s", independently adds "Spend Authorization + Linkability", removing the dependency of Seraphis.

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> getmonero.org/2024/04/27/fcmps.html

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> Gotcha

Ah yeah I'm watching the Estimation plan of OSPEAD indeed I see the fundamental difference!

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Yeah, that won't be implemented in Monero due to FCMP, but it shows (some) of the issues with ring signature model

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> github.com/Rucknium/misc-research/b…d/pdf/monero-black-marble-flood.pdf

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> Here's another issue: effective ring size decrease due to flooding

<a​lohamarkus:matrix.org> What am I looking at in this that adds value from whats written originally? kewbit.org/in-simple-terms-monero-fcmp-explained

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> This is all Rucknium's research, not mine*

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> >According to my estimates, mean effective ring size has decreased from 16 to 5.5 if the black marble flooding hypothesis is correct

<r​ecanman:kernal.eu> I think it is just a summary Markus

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ***Stop research on monero!***

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> - Piconeros were never supposed to be quantified

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> - Years of churning PhD research yet no optimal action found!

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> - Wanted to go more private just for a laugh? We had a tool for that: It was called exchanging goods.

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> LOOK at what statisticians, cryptographer and developer have been asking your respect for:

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> <jamtis address> ???

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> <blackmarble effective ring size> ?????

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> <fcmp++ document> ??????????

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> "Hello I would *<pedersen commitment>* XMR please"

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> ***They have played us for absolute fools***

<b​asses:matrix.org> how much btc they paid u?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/qpKoFUZvCImQTgzgMKPUMGEc

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> None. I just felt ***enlightened*** by this knowyourmeme.com/memes/stop-doing-math

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I lost connection to Monero community workgroup help

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Is it overloaded?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I can still view the channel

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Nah just forever loads on laptop, phone it’s gone

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Same

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Happened a couple days ago for me. Happened in monero and dev too, maybe others

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Can’t we afford to just make a home server

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Or something with a bit more 💣

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> monero.social _is_ our homeserver

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Crank it up?

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> From 3Ghz to 5Ghz

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I thought it was effecting me bcuz i'm on monero.social, but i guess its an issue with the rooms

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> we could always ask to update synapse or switch to conduwuit 🏳️‍⚧️🦴 (yes the emojis are part of the name)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Synapse was updated

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I dont think its synapse, i think the db is corrupted or smthn

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> My theory which is a completely uneducated one on this particular matter is that you need some extra dedotated wam to the server

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Syn, you probably think plowsof is just a P (no profile pic)

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> But he does have a profile pic

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> i know

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> I can see it with other instances

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Yeah

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> I’ve always seen this plowsoff as a P

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> this room (#monero) lost its pic and ita address. #haveno lost its address

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> is the *dedotated wam* with us in the room right now ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Its like the db gets restored to earlier dates or somethinng

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> No it is honestly a simple solution

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Just go here

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> downloadmoreram.com

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Once downloaded install and you’re good

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> it might actually be the case

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Kewbit, look at haveno's room address. It doesnt have one

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> who is the maintainer already ?

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> pigeons ?

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> I personally added haveno:monero.social and a few months later it was rm -rf'd bt a ghost

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> It doesn’t

<k​ewbit:matrix.org> Most rooms do not have a room address tbh

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It _did_ have one, i added it myself

<s​yntheticbird:monero.social> pov me when I tell monerica they are forced to move their channel on kyun.host matrix instance

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> It wasnt removed manually

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> Something ia wrong with the homeserver where it keeps doing a "windows system restore" or some shit

<o​frnxmr:xmr.mx> _all_ monero rooms are/should be addresses to matrix.org and monero.social, with monero.social as the main addr