In biology, there is the concept of viral endogenization whereby a harmful virus becomes a permanent and useful part of the host's DNA.. Has Qubic endogenized itself into Monero yet? Or not yet?

<t​orir:matrix.org> Qubic would need to be a coin with actual long-term utility for that. It's a AI-buzzword pump and dump right now.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Preaching to the choir here, but another case where Monero could have helped people dodging surveillance .. theintercept.com/2025/08/21/ice-imm…-transfers-remittances-surveillance

<e​longated:matrix.org> So are you suggesting another coin with a utility can do same kind of attacks?

<t​orir:matrix.org> Any coin can merge-mine with Monero.

<t​orir:matrix.org> Some do, in fact. Most don't stoop to the level of trying to attack the coin they are merge-mining with.

<t​orir:matrix.org> Qubic's attack is alarming because even if Qubic hasn't succeeded in their stated goal of taking over all block production, the fact that they managed to become large enough to selfish mine heavily implies that Monero's PoW is not robust enough to attacks.

<t​orir:matrix.org> If it is a major government next time, we need to be prepared.

<t​orir:matrix.org> It's also just annoying because Qubic has all the warning signs of your typical pump-and-dump coin and more. It's centralized, you can't even run a full node without permission, the mining software is closed source, the coin makes bold claims without backing them up, the inflation rate exceeds burn rate and is not sustainable.

<t​orir:matrix.org> If Monero loses to a coin like that it look bad.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> What would be the estimated cost Qubic already spent on acting like a jerk?

<t​orir:matrix.org> There have been lots of estimates going around about what the cost of the attack might be. Unfortunately, we don't have hard numbers as far as I know.

<t​orir:matrix.org> The point of the attack is publicity for Qubic, of course. Even if they didn't win, all they had to do was make it look like they won. And judging from the number of poorly researched incorrect articles about it, it seems they spent at least some money on publicizing that story.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Ok, but when is your marketing budget gone, right

<t​orir:matrix.org> It's a pump and dump. The founders make money the more publicity the coin gets.

<t​orir:matrix.org> Once the hype dries up, you extract all you can and then move on to your next coin.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I was looking at the qubic block explorer and it seems like most of their blocks are filled with transactions of 0 value

<e​ddie:oblak.be> it seems like a very elaborate scam

<t​orir:matrix.org> They got someone to prove the coin's high throughput, probably by doing a spam attack that would look like that.

<t​orir:matrix.org> On the website they apparently got someone to verify the network throughput.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> yeah that's nonsense

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I don't know about this certik audit, they could have bought it for all I know

<e​ddie:oblak.be> but the TPS they state is > 1000x faster than solana

<e​ddie:oblak.be> In a real world scenario it probably doesn't hold up

<t​orir:matrix.org> I can believe the throughput claims. It's easier to get high throughput when you sacrifice trustless decentralization.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> 15 million per second

<e​ddie:oblak.be> even visa doesn't do that

<e​ddie:oblak.be> it's stated that visa can do 65k TPS, and that's highly centralized..

<e​ddie:oblak.be> 15 million bogus transactions, yeah maaybe

<t​orir:matrix.org> At some point Ethereum might reach that level of throughput will all the L2 networks.

<t​orir:matrix.org> 15 million is possible with a lot of tradeoffs.

<t​orir:matrix.org> It's technically possible, but not useful for cryptocurrency's usual purposes.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I am not technical enough to dispute this, but I am highly sceptical

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Everything you find about TPS on proven systems is in the thousands, not millions

<e​ddie:oblak.be> First of all, you need to *have* 15 million transactions to prove it

<e​ddie:oblak.be> even ETH handles only like a (few) million transactions per *hour*

<e​ddie:oblak.be> so to me it sounds largely only provable in a simulated environment

<t​orir:matrix.org> I'll admit that 15 million transactions is a lot. My initial reaction to the claim was "why would you need that many?" not "this cannot be possible." With a highly distributed system, non-financial system, we hit numbers like that a lot. The internet, for example, handles far more packets per second than that.

<t​orir:matrix.org> But for a blockchain, the planet doesn't spend money that rapidly.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I agree for non financial systems, but that's a whole other dynamic

<e​ddie:oblak.be> also no saying this throughput can't be improved

<t​orir:matrix.org> Qubic's scalability was also tested for only a short duration. It absolutely cannot handle that rate continuously.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> my main point is just that this bold claim is for the sake of making bold claims and make people go "ooh"

<e​ddie:oblak.be> it's not based in reality

<t​orir:matrix.org> We somehow managed to talk in circles while both agreeing on the core point. I'll end by posting this: news.bitcoin.com/no-visa-doesnt-han…nd-neither-does-your-pet-blockchain

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I saw this article too

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I still feel besides a purely technical defense, "we" need to do work to make monero widely accepted as a legitimate form of digital cash in order to "survive"

<e​longated:matrix.org> I am talking about attacks only

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I think the great/best thing about monero is the bottum-up movement, and because it's frowned upon by regulators it is lucky to not have been taken over by financial institutions

<e​ddie:oblak.be> (and corrupted by large corporations..)

<e​ddie:oblak.be> but as far as I can say something about this, work needs to be done to have monero adopted by everyday people to pay for everyday goods and services.

<t​orir:matrix.org> Legitimate cryptocurrencies tend to have little reason to attack other coins. It could happen... but it doesn't make economic sense. Even if Qubic took over Monero, it would mainly result in destroying the value of the coin they spent so much money mining. If you don't want to destroy the coin or double-spend, then honest mining is simply more profitable. Qubic already knows that <clipped message>

<t​orir:matrix.org> taking over Monero mining simply won't succeed. The community will hardfork away from it. Monero is not controlled by the miners.

<e​ddie:oblak.be> Like when I go to the garage to get my car fixed, back in the days the mechanic would want me to pay in cash so he could make a little extra

<t​orir:matrix.org> Selfish mining, of course... *is* a strategy that another coin could do, if for some reason that could was already doing CPU PoW.

<t​orir:matrix.org> that could>that coin*

<t​orir:matrix.org> In my opinion cryptocurrency is still too hostile to novices for general adoption. When you come from an ecosystem where your bank refunds you when your credit card gets stolen to one where you lose everything if you forget your password, it's pretty harsh. *However*, if Monero starts to see use in regions where the traditional financial system has started to fail economically or <clipped message>

<t​orir:matrix.org> government overreach has become a major problem, that that might be enough to overcome the challenges to adoption.

<t​orir:matrix.org> Find the areas where people need Monero the most and drive adoption in those places first.

<t​orir:matrix.org> So... considering the little I've read about the current political system in the US, maybe go to the cities that immigrants live in and convince businesses there to adopt Monero.

<t​orir:matrix.org> Maybe a place in the UK that is being hit by the encryption crackdown?

<e​ddie:oblak.be> I agree

<e​ddie:oblak.be> In fact the technical solutions are actually the simple ones. Spreading adoption is very hard