jpk68 | I'm sure everyone has already heard this, but Discord is doing this exact same 'interactive selfie' thing <- I am VERY intrigued by the fact that it is supposed to be on-device. If it's on-device - what prevents one from modifying the app to always say "yes"? I can't wait for writeups, that's such a learning opportunity.

<neromonero1024> on-device? really? I thought they're sending the camera feed to their server where the AI inference takes place

support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articl…o-Complete-Age-Assurance-on-Discord says "Discord and k-ID do not permanently store personal identity documents or your video selfies. Images of your identity documents and ID match selfies are deleted directly after your age group is confirmed, and the video selfie used for facial age estimation never leaves your device". However, I

am indeed skeptical of this. But if someone was to dissect the app, worst case scenario it proves they're lying, best case scenario a patch to bypass it is possible.

The ID verification 100% does go to the servers though, both from their words and from the fact they leaked.

<kiersten5821:matrix.org> it's not on device > <BlueyHealer> jpk68 | I'm sure everyone has already heard this, but Discord is doing this exact same 'interactive selfie' thing <- I am VERY intrigued by the fact that it is supposed to be on-device. If it's on-device - what prevents one from modifying the app to always say "yes"? I can't wait for writeups, that's such a learning opportunity.

<kiersten5821:matrix.org> they just lie to you and say it is

Yeah, but still hope someone PROVES it, because that seems doable to prove.

I'm kinda surprised I'm not seeing writeups, given it

given it

given it's apparently already there

<snjya:matrix.org> Hey guys, its me again from the morning. I decided to close my kraken account after doing some thinking and reading. If xmr is made illegal in future will kraken tell the government that I had bought xmr long after my kraken account is closed,?

<elongated:matrix.org> @snjya:matrix.org: Yes

<snjya:matrix.org> Oh

<snjya:matrix.org> I read xmr was made illegal in Europe. Those who had already bought xmr in Europe from kraken.. what happened after illegalization?

<elongated:matrix.org> @snjya:matrix.org: Consider anything you have done on Internet as a permanent record.

<elongated:matrix.org> @snjya:matrix.org: You can contact EU three letter agencies and ask them

I wouldn't be absolutist like that. There can be enough obfuscation to be "good enough", how much - depends on the situation.

laws don't make things retroactively illegal

<elongated:matrix.org> nioc: Sometimes they do it 😓

<snjya:matrix.org> I am talking about the people who had already bought xmr on kraken. Are they okay or what?

Monero isn't illegal in the EU AFAIK. There are just (onerous) regulations about them.

<snjya:matrix.org> nioc: So the European xmr buyers are okay now? Did they receive letter or something to hand back the xmr they had bought?

what I bought is long gone

there is no current law or any proposed that makes it illegal to have monero

<ofrnxmr> What about laws against not owning monero

If it were to be made illegal, there would likely be either a delay between this being known and the law coming into effect (so time to sell) or a builtin delay left for users to sell written in the law.

There is precedent for this in the US: people were forced to sell their gold to the US govt about a hundred years ago IIRC.

ofrn what laws

<ofrnxmr> @snjya:matrix.org: The only example of this, is likely when someone buys om a centralized exchange and does NOT withdraw

euro laws deal with businesses

not individuals

A law against not owning monero would be... very wtf.

<ofrnxmr> when the exchange delists, you have a set amount of time to withdraw, otherwise they take/liquidate your xmr and give you something else

<snjya:matrix.org> I read on twitter that its illegal.. So what if someone has xmr on their windows tablet.. Won't such a tablet get seized or something? > <moneromooo> Monero isn't illegal in the EU AFAIK. There are just (onerous) regulations about them.

<ofrnxmr> its not illegal in EU

I read on twitter uh

<snjya:matrix.org> This is what I want to know, too. Can some European chime in,? > <@ofrnxmr> What about laws against not owning monero

<ofrnxmr> Exchanges just don't want to (or know how to) sell it while also complying with EU's trash regulations

good thing you found your way here

<ofrnxmr> Easier to delist monero, than to get fined for not understanding nonsense regulations

<ofrnxmr> This is for exchanges though, not for owners or users of monero. Monero isn't illegal

the yearly monero conference is held in Europe so.....

<snjya:matrix.org> moneromooo: Has something like this occurred before? Will kraken tell the IRS or someone about the past buyers of xmr long after the buyers have closed their account? I plan to close mine soon...

<gan:skhron.org> It's better to read actual laws

You seem to be flailing. If I were you, I would try to think about this rather than react to (mis)interpreting random things and bouncing to another.

nioc: laws don't make things retroactively illegal <- yes they do. Like, people have been fined/imprisoned for thigs they said on social media years ago because it's a "continuous crime".

Also I got the impression that the European laws were specifically against *accepting* Monero, not just owning or using it individually.

If Kraken receives a valid subpoena for this, and if they don't fight it or lose a fight about it, they will send that info.

businesses not individuals

This has happened before AFAIK, though I don't recall any specifics. It was about Bitcoin taxes IIRC.

<snjya:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: I know kraken use to sell xmr to Europeans..So those Europeans who had already bought something are okay now or got fined or something?!

Jesus. As I said, engage brain and think instead of just filling said brain with whatever someone told you last.

<ofrnxmr> Theyre fine

again it does not apply to individuals

Sorry to be a bit blunt, but your behaviour is prime target for any scammer. When you read some info, think about it critically.

<snjya:matrix.org> I like this app too... Its like WhatsApp group without phone number.. > <nioc> good thing you found your way here

(whether related to monero or anything else)

Maybe I'm misreading, apologies if I am.

<ofrnxmr> moneromooo: send me your seed and kraken login, i'll sort it out

<snjya:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Okay, thanks for clarifying. Will kraken retain the list of buyers of xmr as probable users of xmr in expectations of future laws here?

<ofrnxmr> @snjya:matrix.org: They maintain a list of everything you buy and sell, period

Kraken needs to retain some info for regulatory/audit purposes. How long, I don't know, but it's 99% certain they keep some info about you after you close your account.

<ofrnxmr> this isnt about xmr

<snjya:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Their policy states that they retain it for 5 years only.

I believe the IRC has already obtained info about bitcoin buyers from... coinbase I believe ? and then gone to check their taxes.

ill stand in as a european for questioning

<ofrnxmr> plowsof: Arent yoy from khazakstan tho?

<ofrnxmr> moneromooo: Yes, i recall this as well

The thing is, they have the ability to keep that info.

So you should *assume* they will and that info will get to the IRS or whatever.

<ufo808:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: borat is a fun movie

Also looking at what happened before in similar cases is often instructive

For instance, forced gold sales in the US.

Owning gold *was* illegal after a period of forced buy back I believe.

<snjya:matrix.org> How can I confirm that they retain or delete? Especially the list of buyers of xmr.. > <moneromooo> Kraken needs to retain some info for regulatory/audit purposes. How long, I don't know, but it's 99% certain they keep some info about you after you close your account.

Again, *think* critically. How do you think anyone but them could tell you ? How could one, even them, tell whether their policy on this will change ?

<ofrnxmr> @snjya:matrix.org: They maintain a list of all buyers of all coins

<snjya:matrix.org> Okay, so I need to assume they will know I bought xmr a while ago and will tell that to the monerogestapo in future.. Thanks. So what do I do now? > <moneromooo> So you should *assume* they will and that info will get to the IRS or whatever.

<ofrnxmr> They know you bought xmr

<ofrnxmr> Its literally probably still listed on your account history, viewable by you

Now, the best course of action is to assume there will be no monerogestapo, because it's seriously unlikely people will be hunted for having bought monero in the future, even in fucked up USA-stan now.

<ofrnxmr> On one kf my exchange accounts, i can see purchases that i made in 2017

If your jurodiction ever moves to make owning monero illegal at some point, just sell it, and you should be just fine.

And here jurisdiction is an important concept: you don't *care* about EU laws if its the IRS you're concerned about.

So stop being a deer in the headlights here. That light you're seeing is not an oncoming truck, it's a bloody firefly dancing in front of your eyes.

<snjya:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Yes, I can see it. I can't even hide it.. Unlike my JPM checking.

<snjya:matrix.org> Do any countries have a monerogestapo? Or are working on something like that? I was told earlier that once I move it to my windows wallet kraken will not be able to trace it anymore! > <moneromooo> Now, the best course of action is to assume there will be no monerogestapo, because it's seriously unlikely people will be hunted for having bought monero in the future, even in fucked up USA-stan now.

<snjya:matrix.org> moneromooo: But.. I don't want to sell it.. I just bought it because my bitcoin balance was visible when I googled my btc address!

<snjya:matrix.org> moneromooo: Okay, I get it. It looks like I am overreacting to myself. Thanks.

Totally.

I assume you're in the US from what you said. You have a *much* higher probability to get into trouble by being brown or trans than by using monero.

<ufo808:matrix.org> no monerogestapo, only moneropride ^.^

<snjya:matrix.org> moneromooo: Thank god I am white, xoxo. I just googled to see if any countries have made it illegal to posses xmr. Apparently not. Do you know if there is a mailing list I can subscribe to.. that keeps me up-to-date on the current legal status of monero xmr?

I assume if you don't close your kraken account, they'd tell you if it's coming in advance. They did for EU people.

It was more like "due to regulations, we can't be bothered offering it anymore". This will be a first warning if things are getting a bit closer to illegal. Not that I expect them to be, given the way the US reveres money.

<snjya:matrix.org> moneromooo: Okay, so you propose I retain my kraken account to be up-to-date on the legality of owning xmr.. Sounds like a plan!

For clarity I mean: the way it revers money as speech (though free speech is being sucker punched there so..)

I do not. I am just answering the question about a heads up. It's one of the arguments you'd use as input to decide whether to close or not

This is again indicating of bouncing to whatever you heard last. Recipe for fucking up. Take some time to think before deciding,

Also, there are undoable decisions and final ones. Deciding to do something that's undoable is easier than deciding to do something that's not undoable.

Closing the account is harder to undo than not closing it, since you can always close it later, wherewas creating another could be a pain.

<snjya:matrix.org> Yea okay, I will think about it. The only reason I created a kraken account was because none of my investment advisors could buy me xmr. I have so much to learn. I will decide when I learn more. Thanks for all the help!

<snjya:matrix.org> Good bye for now you guys.

np, and remember to keep your keys safe (both meanings: ensuring accessiblity from you, and ensuring non-accessibility from others).

<pyratevevo:matrix.org> there are moreEUR offers on RetoSwap and it is transacted more than USD. Euro people don't care. > <@snjya:matrix.org> This is what I want to know, too. Can some European chime in,?

<snjya:matrix.org> Yes, I have done this! My tablet has biometric lock.. It won't even login without me sitting literally in front of it! 🥰🥰🥰

<pyratevevo:matrix.org> Looks like it's more USA-Reich from what I saw. > <moneromooo> Now, the best course of action is to assume there will be no monerogestapo, because it's seriously unlikely people will be hunted for having bought monero in the future, even in fucked up USA-stan now.

<pyratevevo:matrix.org> Or don't. How the hell could they get to you anyways ? Just practice good opsec and carry on. > <moneromooo> If your jurodiction ever moves to make owning monero illegal at some point, just sell it, and you should be just fine.

"How the hell could they get to you anyways" - because they gave their info to kraken, so it can be assumed to be available to the govt upon subpoena (or less than that if the current fall continues).

<pyratevevo:matrix.org> moneromooo: "Monero ? Oh some crypto ? I think I sold it 5 years ago for [insert shitcoin or shit fiat]".

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @nioc -- inlaws

Are you saying that we are not outlaws?

<kiersten5821:matrix.org> give me your seed phrase and i will make it so that when they raid your house they will not find any moneros > <@snjya:matrix.org> Okay, so I need to assume they will know I bought xmr a while ago and will tell that to the monerogestapo in future.. Thanks. So what do I do now?

BlueyHealer: Regarding Discord, I'm skeptical as well. Of course none of us can say for sure (since the code is proprietary) but I would guess that some sort of attestation is involved.

In order to prevent people from interfering with on-device verification, I mean. I'm not an expert so I could be using that term incorrectly

I am very intrigued because this feels like such a weird thing to lie about, given that IDs ARE explicitly going to a server. And that this seems pretty possible to disprove - like, by MITM of the traffic

Because it makes people feel better, maybe. They get more arguments as to why it's justified, and everyone will forget about it after.

See: news.uq.edu.au/2026-02-age-verifica…done-safely-and-privately-heres-how

Companies and governments always lie about privacy. People are so used to it, they don't even see the lies anymore.

Every time you see "we don't sell your data", there's a shitload of exceptions.

Not even "if court order". Lots of companies use subcontractors and will give htem your info, since its "necessary" for doing their job. Those, in turn, might.

Companies use third party infra to store/process the data.

Those things are swept under the rug, but all these parties get your info, but it's deemed not to happen. Lies to children really.

If you point it out, you're made to feel like an idiot. "But of course we do, but it doens't count".

I mean, if you do, fucking admit it, you cunt.

Yeah, those are indeed the examples one doesn't even pay attention to anymore because they'd be broken anyway. But this one is kinda curious because it's a different promise.

Also, if the company goes bust, there's a chance its customer data will be sold away by the receiver to get money to pay creditors.

It's lying as a matter of course.

Like, I wonder if there's a lawsuit possible over that

One other big loophole is "for detectoin of fraud". While on the face of it it does sound reasonable, in practice it may well mean sending your data to a contractor that receives similar data from loads of other compamies are can cross ref all of that.

And of course all the stuff going on that the lawyers might not even know about because the tech people just use whatever framework without bothering to check what gets sent.

It's a fucking train wreck, and if you point it out you're told it's normal and you're dumb for thinking it's not.

Like yeah, this is not even something one pays attention to because those are promises you *know* will be broken and are impossible to verify. Thus, when there's a lie that you CAN disprove yourself, that's interesting.

Hah, also the EU had some promise of the US govt that it wouldn't spy om data sent the US. What a fucking joke. It was so obviously a lie.

And of course it was, it got publicized a lot, and they just remade another similar agreement a few years later once the heat died down. I think. Might be a more conservative agreement, but still one that pretends not to see.

Safe harbour IIRC. Obvious bullshit.

It's all to save money, but they paint it as something else because they don't even respect our intelligence.

We have no power, so why not just lie to your face with a big paternalistic smile ? What we gonna do about it ?

Fuckers.

And that was my regular rant. If you're lucky, it stops now ^_^

Well, I guess that's why we're all here ;)

Could just be summed up to "bad things happen and we can't stop it eh"

If only more would care. They wouldn't get away with this if most people would actually do something about it.

At least unlike govt regulations, the platforms we CAN do something about, yeah.

They always lie in the marketing materials. You need to read the actual ToS (yes, that long boring wall of text) to find the truth

But we have AI, so you don't even need to read it. Here's AI summary: pastebin.com/jR3YMfcy

What is it a summary of? Not clicking because you explicitly warned about AI slop

The ToS/privacy policy of Kraken

Sorry, but I'm not going to read that wall of text to copy-paste exact quotes from there. AI summary is pretty much spot on

in this case

They'll give your data to everyone and their uncle (big surprise)

TLDR they do save everything - your ID, selfies etc. for up to several years even after you close your account

<moneromooo> And that was my regular rant. If you're lucky, it stops now ^_^ <<>> mooo rants are one of my favorite things

doorbell camera company "we only store video for 30 days"

police ask for something older

sure we have that, here you go

<alex:matrix.freedomlab.nyc> Don't trust, verify

<321bob321> Monerod banlist block or drop the IP address ?

<pyratevevo:matrix.org> youtube.com/watch?v=wq6w03E2DS4

<pyratevevo:matrix.org> Wow, had I seen this earlier I would've jumped to Monero way quicker than I did.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @321bob321: Both, and removed from peerlist

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> Can anyone offer advice on the hazards/danger tradeoffs between the following methods of nero acquiring(NonXMR crypto[ie LTC] -> XMR)

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> 1. LTC buy via Kraken(fiat) -> send to cake wallet for XMR conversion

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> 2. LTC buy via Kraken(fiat) -> exchange via retoswap for XMR

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> [... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/_ujlhekKV0o5X3Fl ]

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> I'm simply not bright enough to understand the scale/scope of the current surveillance state we find ourselves in sadly

<321bob321> @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: So if it tries to re connect it rejects it or drops the connection ?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @gzx:metropolis.nexus: 1. whoever kraken shares info with, probably knows that you swapped to monero

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> 2. Whoever you sent the ltc to, might deposit it back onto kraken or another swapper, so same as 1

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> @321bob321: It rejects it, yeah

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> And drops it

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> handshake request from blocked peer is ignored iirc

<lza_menace> @gzx:metropolis.nexus: depends on your threat model and who you're trying to avoid. buying from kraken implies your government identity is known to kraken who will report your purchases to your local government. or at least they have a record of you and will provide it if asked. once you have swapped into monero then your [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/iZ_5hekKTDF1QU1I ]

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> Threat model = hella low. Just tryna avoid getting killed by gubbermint taxes down the road honestly. If anyone knows what I should be more afraid of with this type of thing please advise

<lza_menace> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/monero.social/fVePFTgiKdBRsNUHUnYbkAQi.mp4 (meanwhile_the_feds.mp4)

<lza_menace> @gzx:metropolis.nexus: see video ^

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> I think proton blows for the pricetag, but I'm also a broke butthead with smol brain

<lza_menace> if you want to avoid being taxed on gains then don't sell or break your countries rules. moving money into xmr is more of a hedge against inflation or debt spiral rather than a tax avoidance strategy

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> nah, I only buy stuff with nero

<lza_menace> in the US, federal expenditures are a runaway train and if left unchecked the country will go bankrupt, unable to pay down the interest let alone the principal

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> I have nightmares of xmr hitting a 3k usd, and feds at my door asking for they cut or get in the van

<lza_menace> give them their cut, go to jail, or flee to another country. is what it is

<lza_menace> i'd be more concerned with individuals/thieves than feds razing my home

<lza_menace> burglar with a pair of pliers

<gan:skhron.org> @lza_menace: youtube.com/watch?v=4zH9Zca1vRM even

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> chill mr menace chill

<lza_menace> never talk about your holdings to anyone and safeguard mnemonic seed / private keys

<lza_menace> safest to disconnect from socials/online presence

<lza_menace> literally everything is coopted and part of the panopticon

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> You speak as if the situation really is beyond hopeless

<gan:skhron.org> this unironically is more common, for example the famous case in Russia of a bitcoiner getting beaten and having his storage devices stolen > <@lza_menace> i'd be more concerned with individuals/thieves than feds razing my home

<lza_menace> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/monero.social/ORAHMmyBikhFZXLdBvMfeCXy.png (image.png)

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> @gan:skhron.org: These cases always involve someone who's more of a dolphin/whale no? I mean debt-slaves wouldn't just mug other debt-slaves over 0.6 xmr, right?

<lza_menace> correct

<lza_menace> if you're a poor then you'll be fine

<gan:skhron.org> feddies probably could just print money on their own instead of using wrenches

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> who knew us lumpenproles had so much going for us XD

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> @lza_menace: phew, atleast they still haven't got my tip color yet bahaha

<lza_menace> last schizo post for now. gotta go

<lza_menace> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/monero.social/UmBiAgAnHHNIfPzmWVmwRzih.jpeg (you_are_here.jpeg)

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> Is the brazil section alluding to something about the country?

<gan:skhron.org> @gzx:metropolis.nexus: I don't think so, it's just Brazil

<gan:skhron.org> or rather, well, you could look up various statistics, not exactly the pleasant place to be in

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> TIL Brazil is TWC

<gan:skhron.org> 🧌

<gzx:metropolis.nexus> I'm not trolling, just very unaware and uncultured. Good to hear from ganž and ofrn—thx for the info!

<lza_menace> mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/monero.social/ORAHMmyBikhFZXLdBvMfeCXy.png (image.png) <<>> went from "think of the children" to think of nioc, how nice lol

<321bob321> And cats *

to the question, why Brazil? on that ven diagram > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)