<leah6866:matrix.org> Hello, When spending XMR, do I need to manually select UTXOs／stealth addresses and manually set the change address?

<leah6866:matrix.org> Or can I simply spend the funds and let the wallet automatically select multiple UTXOs and generate a change address, without harming my privacy?

<p4xxus:matrix.org> as far as I know: some wallets have the ability to select UTXOs manually, but usually it is done automatically. Stealth addresses are generated automatically, you may want to create a subaddress when receiving something, but no need for sending. Change addresses are automatically generated too.

<leah6866:matrix.org> @p4xxus:matrix.org: Thank you!

<leah6866:matrix.org> Wouldn’t letting the wallet automatically select multiple UTXOs and generate a change address in a single transaction compromise my privacy?

<leah6866:matrix.org> do I need to consolidate UTXOs into a single address first?

<elongated:matrix.org> There is no change address

<elongated:matrix.org> Change is sent back to your xmr account first address

<elongated:matrix.org> Also no addresses are visible on chain

<elongated:matrix.org> If you are combining lot of utxos, best to send it your own address, do a few churns and then spend it.

<leah6866:matrix.org> @elongated:matrix.org: So I don’t need to manually select UTXOs or set a change address at all， I just need to churn some of the UTXOs?

<elongated:matrix.org> If you are going to churn utxos and then spend them together, the churn is useless

<elongated:matrix.org> If you have 10 utxos of 1 xmr and want to spend 9 xmr, you should combine those 10 utxos , then churn a few times before spending

<elongated:matrix.org> Churn at random time, random nodes

<leah6866:matrix.org> @elongated:matrix.org: What does “random nodes” mean? I only have a local monerod instance.

<elongated:matrix.org> @leah6866:matrix.org: Use a trusted remote node once or twice while Churning if you don’t have tor

<leah6866:matrix.org> > Use a trusted remote node once or twice while Churning if you don’t have tor

<leah6866:matrix.org> I’m making transactions in Whonix, is it okay to use only the local node?

<leah6866:matrix.org> When churning, should I use different wallet software, or is using the same wallet sufficient? Does XMR have a wallet fingerprinting issue similar to BTC?

<leah6866:matrix.org> And what range of random waiting times is recommended between churnings?

<pw:xmr.mx> same wallet is fine, you can even send it to the same address as the original transfer as Monero its doesnt know it uses stealth addresses and mixes it with others in a block.

<pw:xmr.mx> it can be done straight away too

<pw:xmr.mx> don't really need to churn either for the above reasons

<leah6866:matrix.org> @pw:xmr.mx: Do all XMR wallet fingerprints look the same on-chain?

<pw:xmr.mx> I'm going to day no... I think

<pw:xmr.mx> because of stealth addresses and ring signatures

<leah6866:matrix.org> Before full-chain membership proofs were introduced, did ring signatures have certain vulnerabilities?

<pw:xmr.mx> plowsof @ofrnxmr:xmr.mx selsta @syntheticbird:monero.social

<pw:xmr.mx> one of those will have the answer to that i would of thought... or someone else

depends on what you mean with vulnerabilities

implementation bugs?

<leah6866:matrix.org> selsta: e.g. poisoned output attack

<pw:xmr.mx> eae attack?

yes, you can find info on the internet

<leah6866:matrix.org> Thank you

<leah6866:matrix.org> Spending this way: BTC KYC exchange -> BTC Core Wallet -> Convert to XMR -> Feather Wallet -> convert back to BTC -> Sparrow Wallet -> pay for goods

<leah6866:matrix.org> For the "Feather Wallet XMR -> Sparrow Wallet BTC" step, would it be a problem to convert only exactly the amount needed and spend the entire amount immediately each time (avoid dealing with change)?

<leah6866:matrix.org> Or would it be better to convert more BTC in advance and spend only part of it, leaving the rest for future purchases?

<pw:xmr.mx> why convert to XMR and pay in BTC? can't you just pay in XMR.

<pw:xmr.mx> much less gas fee

<leah6866:matrix.org> @pw:xmr.mx: Some services do not support XMR, such as ProtonVPN.

<pw:xmr.mx> since you mentioned feather you're talking desktop.

<pw:xmr.mx> try stack wallet. multi coin and has built in Tor (you need to turn it on with single press of the onion icon

using monero just as a short step won't give you good privacy generally

<pw:xmr.mx> mullvad accepts XMR and no other information is needed

<leah6866:matrix.org> Thank you. ProtonVPN was just an example, I’d like to know which approach is best for that kind of spending: “convert only the exact amount” or “convert more BTC in advance”?

<pw:xmr.mx> best approach. get XMR, spend XMR :P

Again, they're talking about situations when this is not an option.

for poisoned output attack just look at moonstoneresearch.com/2023/11/03/Postmortem-of-Monero-CCS-Hack.html

that info isnt available to an outsider looking in - the eae is a targeted attack against people that are 1. worth being targeted 2. can be targeted (did you steal someone elses wallet and make the news? do you have a public address where people can send you transactions? are you consolidating outputs while depositing directly to a KYC'd CEX?

<gingeropolous> " - Ledger stays. It's gated on hidapi being installed, is a handful of files, and monero has no clean switch for it short of hiding the library." >>> BAH!

<gingeropolous> ah ok there's some cmake thing that'll prevent it from compiling.... shweet

<leah6866:matrix.org> Hello, what range of random waiting times is recommended between churnings?

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> whatever makes you feel good

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> its not really important unless you plan on sending the funds back to the place where you got them from, or another entity that shares such data with someone else

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> the point of churning, is to make it look like you spent the funds. churning too much makes the decoy appear more often than it would during natural selection, so it stands out

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> example. buy xmr from kraken -> send to wallet address A -> repeat 9 times -> consolidate = kraken can see that you consolidated -> churn 5 times at whatever intervals over 3 months -> receive more funds from kraken -> consoldate those new funds with the churned funds = kraken can see that the new funds were joined with the o [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/is_-vK4LWkxZQ3hf ]

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> if you truly want to separate funds, churn to a new subaccount so that you dontspend new funds from kraken in the same tx as the churned funds in account B

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> kraken knowing that you consolidated funds that you got from them, isnt a real issue. since that could be you spending the funds at some random place. the issue is when you recombine those funds with a new input from kraken, who can now see that the churn wasnt a spend

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> confirming that you still own the same xmr they sent to you prior

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> anyway, this is all autistic and unless you are doing stupid shit like "Washing btc", its not going to bite

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> buy xxmr > use xmr. done

<leah6866:matrix.org> > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> example. buy xmr from kraken -> send to wallet address A -> repeat 9 times -> consolidate = kraken can see that you consolidated -> churn 5 times at whatever intervals over 3 months -> receive more funds from kraken -> consoldate those new funds with the churned funds = kraken can see that the new fund [... too long, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/9Mm4va4Lb0w1NExm ]

<leah6866:matrix.org> Thank you

<leah6866:matrix.org> buy xmr from kraken -> send to wallet address A -> repeat 9 times -> consolidate = kraken can see that you consolidated

<leah6866:matrix.org> [... more lines follow, see mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/9Mm4va4Lb0w1NExm ]

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> buy xxmr > use xmr. done

<m4tr1xhav3rl33t:4d2.org> hey dude where would i even go for that? every single no-kyc exchange requires a deposit meaning i cant get any altcoins > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Can you get another crypto?

<m4tr1xhav3rl33t:4d2.org> and every no deposit offer has way too high of a minimum

<m4tr1xhav3rl33t:4d2.org> im really stuck in a hard place

<ofrnxmr> @leah6866:matrix.org: Means receive 9 inputs from kraken

<ofrnxmr> @m4tr1xhav3rl33t:4d2.org: Bisq2 does?

<leah6866:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: If I don’t want to spend as long as 3 months churning, is it reasonable to churn 5 times within a few hours or less? What’s the shortest recommended interval?

<ofrnxmr> @leah6866:matrix.org: No

<ofrnxmr> Just dont bother churning at all

<m4tr1xhav3rl33t:4d2.org> @ofrnxmr: all bisq offers have deposit requiremenets

<ofrnxmr> Why would you need to churn in the first place if you just got the xmr snd arent "cospending" multiple inputs back to the same place

<m4tr1xhav3rl33t:4d2.org> wait i might have just found the perfect offer

<ofrnxmr> Eae attack involves sending the funds back to where they came from

churning has been studied by researchers and they were not able to give definitive recommendations on the best way to churn

<ofrnxmr> nioc: Tis is why i say "whatever makes you feel good" because it is a bell curve between pointless, barely does anything, and pointless

but yes things like eae attack are real

ngu makes me feel good :D

<ofrnxmr> Id you want to churn 100x, it doesnt prevent cospend analysis or eae

<ofrnxmr> A churn is just a glorified word for consolidate and/or spend

<ofrnxmr> The goal of churning isnt "to churn", it is to disassociate the funds from the recipient. But you can re-associate and undo the churn by cospend or eae

using monero instead of any of the thousands of other coins amkes me feel good

<ofrnxmr> Example, if you receive from kraken, send to me, and i send to kraken, kraken cant know that these are the same funds. They can only know if you send back to them

<leah6866:matrix.org> If I get XMR from a KYC exchange, I can spend it directly without churning? > <@ofrnxmr> Why would you need to churn in the first place if you just got the xmr snd arent "cospending" multiple inputs back to the same place

<ofrnxmr> @leah6866:matrix.org: Yea

<leah6866:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: What if I need to spend multiple UTXOs in the a transaction? How should I handle that in advance?

<ofrnxmr> you can do so w/o a problem. kraken will be able to see that you spent them, but not where to. If the service you spend do is a kraken deposit address, then they will know that you sent xmr to the service who has the account with them

<ofrnxmr> So, consolidating (a single churn) can reduce the fingerprint (sending 10 known inputs in the same tx -> sending 1 that might not be related)

<leah6866:matrix.org> @ofrnxmr: Thank you for the advice. I’m a bit confused and need to think it over, since some people have also suggested doing multiple rounds of churning.

<ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Doesnt matter how mand round you do if you cospend new inputs from the same source, an/or send back to the source

I tried (with a ai agent) a flow using monero-oxide: two parties each fund a singlesig wallet, then create a 2-of-2 multisig, then atomically co-fund it with equal multi-input they both audit before signing. Later they interactively agree and sign cooperative spends. monero oxide is very good, congrats

<milas900:matrix.org> Hello I am not sure if this is the right form but I’m trying to develop monero market analysis. I need data like web socket what Binance provides , where I can get this for xmr. Happy to hear if you have the input please

<yahniukov:matrix.yahniukov.com> @milas900:matrix.org: you need to start with better market understanding, as well as crypto nature, and laws

<yahniukov:matrix.yahniukov.com> e.g. Binance like any other KYC exchange, doesn't deel with monero

<pw:xmr.mx> @milas900:matrix.org: ask your ai, you have made several ai comments in the past