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nioc
rehrar: wen sarang CCS update? There is supposed to be one once a month. I might have missed it as I am rarely on reddditt
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selsta
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nioc
the all knowing selsta :D
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nioc
posted 8hrs ago so maybe a response to my earlier comment in -markets yet no communication on IRC (I am not on freenode)
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nioc
COMMUNICATION PLEASE
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selsta
rehrar: yep please also comment them on the ccs issue, not everyone looks at reddit
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selsta
ccs merge request*
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rehrar
Will do.
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rehrar
nioc: I miss you man.
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nioc
(350/250)*25.3=35.4
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rehrar
selsta: done
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nioc
35.4-25.3=10.1
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rehrar
Also, don't know if you heard, but Matrix is expecting the bridge release on Monday
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selsta
did not hear it
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nioc
!tip sarang 10.1
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selsta
sweep_all sarang
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nioc
rehrar: there are 52 Mondays per year
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rehrar
this upcoming Monday :P
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nioc
™
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nioc
update: sarang did work :D
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nioc
good that's what we wanted done :)
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nioc
actually we want more work done
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nioc
please help
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rehrar
geonic: I received the notification for your comment but I can't respond to it on reddit for some reason so I can respond to it here.
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rehrar
Cypher Stack is indeed still the buffer of volatility here. The contract will continue to completion regardless of whether a second round of funding goes up or not.
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rehrar
I will take the hit of all losses personally.
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rehrar
Sarang's salary and portion of the money will remain unaffected.
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rehrar
In the event that he opened this proposal himself, depending on the timing of delivery and when it was taken out, he would have dealt with the losses himself and taken the hit, probably affecting his desire to continue.
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rehrar
But, since I'll be down money, I may focus efforts on other contracts that are a bit more stable for a while, while I rebuild my funds to a point where I can take on more risky and volatile projects like Monero again, which means a pause in XMR research work.
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rehrar
All of this is AFTER the current contract is completed, of course. That hasn't changed.
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rehrar
And goodness if you couldn't be any more passive aggressive with your first sentence.
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rehrar
If you have any more questions I'm happy to answer them.
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lotusflare
Do you know what all channels have migrated to libera.chat yet?
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rehrar
We have the channel equivalents on libera chat, and all are controlled by core so it's a good start. I'd say most discussion is happening here these days.
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lotusflare
Awesome, thanks
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rehrar
Oh, one final thing to say, which I just said on the reddit.
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rehrar
If we were to open a second proposal to make up the difference, any surplus that results from an unexpected pump can be put elsewhere. Like the Haveno project.
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medusa_
why havent salaries been hedged ?
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medusa_
did core niot pay out in advance ?
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medusa_
But, since I'll be down money, I may focus efforts on other contracts that are a bit more stable for a while, while I rebuild my funds to a point where I can take on more risky and volatile projects like Monero again, which means a pause in XMR research work -> maybe we should start to overthink that relationship in general if thats what we can expect
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medusa_
what volatile about xmr lol? every project is volatile if you dont hedge your salaries
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gingeropolous
yeah it just sounds like the payout should have been sooner. there were no trust issues here afaik
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gingeropolous
i.e., we had to wait to see the value of the work performed
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gingeropolous
kinda similar to how the audit ccs's have gone
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gingeropolous
i.e., we didn't have to wait to see the value of the work performed. thats what i meant.
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medusa_
yeah it seems thats the issue here, besides rehar exactly knowing this would be a possibility and no problem at all. maybe the assumption was made that the 10% buffer was enough, which it wasnt.
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gingeropolous
indeed.
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gingeropolous
i mean, i would support a general .... policy, wherein first time contributors are expected to jump through the following hoops
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gingeropolous
1. contribute something for free, to demonstrate ability. doesn't have to be much, but a PR here, a review there, etc
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gingeropolous
2. put in a CCS and expect payout only when tasks are complete
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gingeropolous
and then from there, any further CCS's have a much looser arrangement re: completion and payout
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gingeropolous
which can be specifically detailed in the CCS
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medusa_
thats how its done for quite some time "inofficially" imo
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gingeropolous
and then its up to the community to fund these proposals with these specifics
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gingeropolous
right
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gingeropolous
and if this specific "prepay" is present and there's some disagreement during the initial CCS, then it gets modified
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gingeropolous
and its therefore observed that the contributor is still in phase 2
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gingeropolous
i mean, there's always a risk that a phase 3 contributor takes the money and runs
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midipoet
CCS using a stablecoin once XMR has been raised isn't a fruitless idea.
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medusa_
i guess everyone supoports that..ppl like rehar, selsta, moo etc are all in the top category..."take the money and just show results later" basically...they have earned our trust many times
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gingeropolous
but by all accounts, this was an instance where the parties were definitely phase 3
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medusa_
absolutely..thats why its a little suprising
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selsta
midipoet: that would require core team to use an exchange
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selsta
doubt they want that
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selsta
tax reasons etc don't know how that works exactly
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midipoet
I see
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gingeropolous
so somehow our manifest collective gestalt facilitation of the obvious just didn't happen this time
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midipoet
But cypherstack could have, no?
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midipoet
I mean, was that not on the main reasons behind this agreement?
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selsta
why would they?
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midipoet
*one
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selsta
what is cypherstack doing with a stablecoin?
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medusa_
so somehow our manifest collective gestalt facilitation of the obvious just didn't happen this time--> indeed, but its important we get to the root of that...misscomunication maybe? probably only rehard can answer that
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gingeropolous
but these are turbulent times. the communication channels thing is definitely making our whole machine a bit spluttery
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midipoet
selsta: to hedge against volatility risk as their employee was to be paid in USD, I assume?
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gingeropolous
imagine if this freenode thing happened during the asic wars
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gingeropolous
i mean jesus
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selsta
midipoet: but they can convert to real usd in the first place
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midipoet
selsta: fair point! I'll shut up now
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selsta
I assume we were in the middle of a bull market so rehrar probably wasn't thinking about significant price drop
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gingeropolous
right, that too
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selsta
in a bear market you probably think about this before doing a ccs
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medusa_
which is a bitter lesson, but nothing the community should pay any consequences by withholding future contracts
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medusa_
in the end rehard blames xmr volatility and not himself, which isnt correct
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medusa_
im sure we can find a solution...raise salary 10% for next contract or whatever
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medusa_
(and hedge it then) ^^
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nioc
!tip 10.1
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medusa_
we can stuff that hole indirectly without causing too much fuss
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medusa_
and let grass grow over it
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medusa_
but threatening to pause xmr contractor work because of this is not ok
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medusa_
just my opinion ofc, as always
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nioc
Yes
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nioc
Problem has been identified and it seems that solutions as expressed by gingeropolous and others seems reasonable
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medusa_
back to puming :D
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nioc
Payout upfront
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gingeropolous
puming?
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medusa_
pumping...sorry my keyboard is broken
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nioc
Please fix sew can pamp
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tobtoht
I'm in support of paying out CCS proposals upfront for sarang / well known contributors.
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tobtoht
Keeping valuable contributors interested in working on Monero by mitigating exchange risk for CCS proposals far outweighs the risk of undelivered work.
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selsta
I mean that exists already anyway, sarang did it in the past
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tobtoht
Did CypherStack not request the payout upfront? Was it denied?
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selsta
they did not
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tobtoht
But could have?
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tobtoht
I mean in that case it seems like an oversight on their part really.
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tobtoht
I would still contribute to a second proposal, though. If it doesn't happen again in the future.
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rehrar
medusa_: there was enough criticism of the proposal as is, I didn't dare use my good will that I built up outside of the business to get the business special favors like immediate pay out before the work was complete.
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rehrar
tobtoht: ^
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rehrar
Believe me, it was considered.
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rehrar
And in the future proposals it probably would have been a thing.
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tobtoht
Ok, I see rehrar. Thanks for clarifying.
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medusa_
i get that rehrar and i have understanding for it, but maybe your approach was too conservative. i think many of the donors (especially the big ones that are around for long time) wouldnt have had an issue with it if cypherstack gets paid in advance, really noone with a brain expects you to run with the money. definetely make use of the trust you built up next time
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medusa_
how we fix the hole it created now i dont know really
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medusa_
but the "lets make a 2nd funding round or we have to withhold future contracts" approach doesnt seem best to me
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medusa_
maybe the "lets get even more contracts from xmr and price has suprisingly risen 5% due to inflation" is the better approach^^
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rehrar
medusa_: I already got a lot of shit for the proposal as it was though, I guarantee I would have gotten more for trying to get special treatment. But you're right, I perhaps should have pushed for it regardless against the haters.
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rehrar
medusa_: "what volatile about xmr lol? every project is volatile if you dont hedge your salaries" <-- other projects I accept either USD or get paid in advance
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rehrar
But alright, I see that ultimately half the community would be ok with it and half would be upset, so I'll not open a second proposal
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medusa_
xmr also accepts payment in advance
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medusa_
i really get both sides
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medusa_
and i think everyone has an interest in it being resolved somehow smoothly...how that looks like is the other question
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medusa_
how big is the hole we talking about anyway ?
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rehrar
medusa_: you may get both sides, but your overwhelmingly negative comments on reddit will undoubtedly sway some to the negative ;)
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rehrar
medusa_: about 8 XMR
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medusa_
that should be a non issue than really..we should be able to solve that right here and move on and put it to the archive under lessons learned
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medusa_
no need to create fuss over 2k USD imo
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rehrar
Alright. I will not make a fuss on it.
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medusa_
but ideally we take care that this loss doesnt grow further..so maybe we can payout the contract now and come up with the missing 8 xmr in the coming days ?
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medusa_
or something like that..i dont know...
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medusa_
best to check with core probably
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rehrar
medusa_: come up with the missing 8 xmr how? Be expectant of private donation? CCS? I don't dare ask for GF money.
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medusa_
yes i think it could be solved via private donations, as long as it stays a one time thing i would support that
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medusa_
maybe even a partial payment from core fund could be justified, since core should have approached you and said "hey but this is contract based work, you aware of the volatility risks?"
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medusa_
in the end its hard and unecessary to point fingers...seems to be more of a collective fuck up
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medusa_
which gladly the damage is pretty small
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medusa_
and shouldnt affect future collaboration
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medusa_
what is more important in the long run is that other well known contributiors realize that they do have the possibility to hedge their CCS payments by geting paid oput in advance, like selsta
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selsta
will keep it in mind
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rehrar
give selsta literally all the money
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rehrar
medusa_: I will not open the can of worms that is accepting money from Core. I would get crucified for this.
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rehrar
And not without good reason btw :P
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medusa_
right, my argument was pretty streched ^^
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medusa_
<selsta> will keep it in mind -> ideally we reach a point where under each CCS the question is asked "how will volatility risks be handled?" esp when it comes to bigger contracts that are USD based. this means core and also community need to keep an eye on that in the future
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medusa_
gladly the loss now is very small and as long as there are lessons learned its a non issue imo
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rehrar
medusa_: right. A thing was proposed (actually two things) before sarang left, but he was the one that wanted to use it most so it was put on the back burner after he stepped out.
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rehrar
Core has in the past said that huge projects can count on the GF to make up for volatility provided they're also ok with sharing surplus to the GF in the event that the price goes up instead. As well, an additional 10% would be added to the proposal itself which would be given to the GF to help offset this risk.
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rehrar
This was one of the ideas, and sarang was set to be the first to make use of it, but he opted for immediate payouts instead.
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rehrar
That said, perhaps the idea can be reinstated, and proposers can decide whether or not to opt in to this method and have a guaranteed USD paycheck, but reap no rewards on upward tick in price, or not opt in and take that risk themselves.
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rehrar
If my business wasn't operating pretty tightly right now, I'd be more than happy to accept greater risk, and sometime in the future when I'm making the muns, it's probably what I'll do.
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medusa_
im not sure core should do this service tbh. I think just paying in advance for veteran contributors (which chypherstack is a part off) is the simplest and most easy...everyone themselfs can decide then if they want the risk or not.
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medusa_
for new and unknow contributiors its something else...but we dont have many of those anyway
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gingeropolous
u guys are the best
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medusa_
yeah sorry for bringing the pitchforks...im one of the firsts to pick them up usually but i also try to be one of the firsts that put them away again and finds a solution, which i think we managed.
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geonic
rehrar: saw your response on Reddit and responded there, thanks
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geonic
I'm glad you decided to listen to the community on this one
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geonic
09:10 <@rehrar> medusa_: I will not open the can of worms that is accepting money from Core. I would get crucified for this. ->>> I'm not sure if this is a joke or feigned righteousness. do you mean to tell us that you stopped accepting a salary from the GF?
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medusa_
it was about what i said...to pay the missing 8 xmr from core fund, which was a bad idea to begin with
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medusa_
nothing related to his salary
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geonic
just a strange comment to come from the person who's been the biggest beneficiary of Core's beneficence
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rehrar
geonic: no, I meant accept money from core for the CCS shortfall, which medusa_ suggested as an off-hand comment
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rehrar
for what it's worth btw, the community was not overwhelmingly against this.
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rehrar
but several people were
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rehrar
How is it strange? I'm paid by core as their employee, and because of that COI I would never accept XMR from the general fund for recovering the shortfall of the proposal. It just looks and feels bad
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geonic
out of the 45 comments in that thread I think only 5 didn't raise the concern. looked pretty overwhelming to me. you yourself said "the community spoke, and I listened"
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geonic
I'm puzzled that this would look and feel bad to you, but being an employee of Core and at the same time working for and providing services to competing projects, and facilitating the lending of services of other Monero contributors to these competing projects, doesn't look and feel bad to you
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geonic
it looks and feels bad to many people
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rehrar
geonic: it's no secret that you haven't been a fan of me or my position for a long time. I just wish you'd say such things outright so it can be discussed with the community and core properly, instead of what you and so many others do in making biting remarks and going on with your day.
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rehrar
If enough people are willing to raise their voice that they don't like what I'm doing, on the business side, the contractor for core side, or both, I'll see about making changes.
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rehrar
But at the moment I don't have actionable feedback on a lot of things, and only realize some people aren't thrilled with it after quite some time.
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rehrar
Also, of the 45 comments in the thread, only a handful were overtly negative (and many by the same people). Others were discussions, questions, etc.
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geonic
sorry. have I not been explicit? plenty people have raised that concern. just look at the original CCS thread. look at your "transparency" report on Reddit and the responses you received there. just today, obit33 asked you for the reports about your work for Core. you answered his other questions but ignored that one.
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rehrar
Let me answer plainly here then. I don't plan to release more transparency reports.
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rehrar
I spent the next several days answering publicly and privately many opinions, complaints, and ideas about how I should be spending my time.
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rehrar
I'm answerable to Core, and they still think I'm doing a good job. I report to them. Arguing with the community about all of these things is a waste of my time. The Core Team sees a need for my skills, even when many in the community don't.
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rehrar
In the core report that revealed my position, many people were upset at me that it was going on for so long without them knowing. This was a thing that Core asked me to do. Be truthful if asked, but don't reveal voluntarily. And I was asked several times and answered truthfully leading it to be in the open many times.
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medusa_
i for one share Cores view on this and think your work is valuable rehrar. just to make that clear if my reddit comments should leave any other impression. all i cared about is the hedging of cypherstacks salaries paid by community, which i consider as solved
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rehrar
The report I did release was a courtesy. Not a requirement for my position.
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rehrar
medusa_: yes. Lessons were learned. I was too conservative in not trying to take advantage of my position. Please understand my intentions were good for not requesting instant release of money.
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rehrar
The drop was also violent and drastic, and had it been not in the range of $100/XMR, I mightn't have cared.
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medusa_
of course, i do have understanding, esp when seeing how you get attacked on a regulas basis
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geonic
medusa_: you really don't see a conflict of interest in that the only person who is receiving a salary from the Monero project is running an outsourcing business and acting as a middleman for other contributors within the same project? not to mention competing projects?
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rehrar
I understand some of why. If I'm going to be working for core, I should be at a much higher standard. After all, that's a lot of power and trust given to me in the community, and if I use it flippantly it will make people nervous.
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rehrar
geonic: sarang was no longer a consistent contributor the project, and, again, would only be a consistent contributor if he found a deal like mine. I didn't 'poach' anyone.