crypto_grampy: 8bit monerochan girl xmr.radio/monerochan.html

ajs_[m]: OOOOOOO. Very cool.

where are the Monero logos though?! the CPU mining rig?

soon

awesome. Just FYI are a few anons commissioning monerochan art here: moneroart.neocities.org and there has been discussion of commissioning a monerochan gif piece 😀

s/awesome. Just FYI are a few anons commissioning monerochan art here: moneroart.neocities.org and there has been discussion of commissioning a monerochan gif piece 😀/awesome. Just FYI are a few anons commissioning monerochan art here: moneroart.neocities.org and there has been discussion of adding a monerochan gif piece to the list 😀 /

site is a work in progress

* site is new and a work

> Walking doggirl Wownero-chan on a leash

lol

<ajs_[m]> "crypto_grampy: 8bit monerochan..." <- thanks for sharing

I don't mean to be funny, but I think we need to offer much more for those works. It take hours to be creative like that and we offer so much more for other skills already

s/don't mean to be funny, but I//

<sudo_ki[m]> "I don't mean to be funny, but I..." <- Those works are outsourced to fiver or or similar site and the prices are the standard market rate. From what I've heard the guy managing it always tips generously from his own pocket

thread is now deleted as it was becoming fodder for trolls

You're a bit late there, captain.

seems like needmoney90 wouldn't mind one of those Monero beef-airing Wednesdays with geonic

I can sense some beef there :p

I'm fine. It's a bad idea.

you're right, let's just pent-up frustration like real men do

I think some folk get pleasure from hold grudges

When you're a moderator, you have to hold your words and follow a different process. Even if someone is repeatedly attempting to goad you. It's really not the right forum for me to air grievances.

Or have them aired for that matter

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

s/hold/holding/

No, I meant what I said.

I do in fact hold my words.

Ah, you were fixing your message

It's early, forgive me

needmoney90: I need to learn this and improve, hard to balance being a community member and moderator and separate the two as needed.

It's tough. The line blurs, especially when people try to force them to blur

Perhaps an event such as this would be the only appropriate time, as mod, one could air grievances

Not interested.

That's fair enough

It's never going to appeal to everyone

Like any customer facing role, have to be polite no matter what 😁

Imagine not being able to sh*tpost once in a while.. what kind of an online-life is that!?

Oh, I can shitpost, just not in the same way

Have to be a bit more clever/reserved about it

XD doesn't necessarily sound like the mod you aspire to be though

Reality is often disappointing

word

I should mention, these beefs shouldn't be limited to persons, but as with genoics, a state of affairs should be valid also

needmoney90 "When you're a moderator, you have to hold your words and follow a different process" <- I do not think mods should hold themselves to higher standards

wut

Being a mod is being a janitor

Lol

thinking of it as higher than that is an ego trip

ego trips are bad seth

Ok buddy.

Just sayin´

I guess holding myself to a higher standard is bad XD

commence lowering standards

no is great, as long you do it for yourself and not because you think of the mod position as something important

it really is not

the community is what matters

Of course I do that for myself.

Bravo then

Modding is important but I'm not better than anyone else

I understand what your saying totally. Good moderates are that because of their inherent personality. Not because they consciously hold themselves to higher standards

But I do choose to give up my own time to help mod.

Y'all have a good one.

sudo_ki[m] "Good moderates are that because of their inherent personality. Not because they consciously hold themselves to higher standards" <- Exactly

sudo_ki[m]: That's not meant as indirect criticism

Have a good day Seth

If one decided they couldn't take part in public airing of grievances. I would argue that some level on bad faith is in play

A distinction should be drawn between a mediator and a moderator

It's a balancing act.

<Chamus> "needmoney90 "When you're a..." <- Lol you won't be mod for long if you lower your standards

so being a mod doesn't have any more responsibility than shitposting? wut

nioc: Spot on

We need lower mod standards

This would fix our community forever

If I were a mod and someone made my work difficult. I'd be pissed if it continued and I couldn't voice my opinion and have the open support of the community

You must be joking

Lower, no, fairer, yes

Of course it's sarcasm :P

What is a "fairer standard" for a mod?

Can we get a mod with very low standards in here to speak

speaking

I don't know, I don't know the beefs ;)

Based

lulz

Ginger shitposts short stories sometimes

abortions for some, tiny american flags for others!

well that landed flat. I'll be here all night! don't forget to tip your server!

I didn't know there was a tip bot for matrix

s/on/of/

Imagine arguing in here when you could be buying McDonald's on lightning: twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/1435236902274220040?s=20

he sold the news and all he got was this hamburger

that was a $5 meal

I hope every last one of you stands with Michael saylor in buying 30$ of Bitcoin today for El Salvador solidarity

he bought $30 worth of BTC today?

Something something cyber horneys

Inge: I'm just shitposting. Nurse hasn't brought me my meds yet

fun to see it.

every morning I call someone so that they can remind me to take my meds

important to be consistent

<crypto_grampy[m]> "Lol you won't be mod for long if you lower your standards" <- No one said anything about lowering standards, they brought the term up cause it was easier to argue against lowering standards than to what I referred

I repeat, I do not think mods should hold themselves to higher standards. Being a mod is being a janitor thinking of it as higher than that is an ego trip.

You don't hold your primary school janitor to higher standards just because he works there to unclog pipes when they clog

Same with reddit mods

Imho

so being a mod doesn't have any more responsibility than shitposting? wut

it must unclog pipes when they clog, that is it

if only people were as simple as pipes

What a belief system, wow

brb, creating new "janitor" flair for Reddit

Chamus: Being a mod is being a moderator. You moderate a discussion. Being a janitor is cleaning up safemoon and porn spam. You're overly invested in your janitor idea....

As I clarified, it was in my humble opinion. I would not dare to think to hold the Truth, of course!

So let's just agree to disagree on this one Grampy ;)

:)

Can someone cristen chamus as the janitor mod

I want to see the theory of highly opinionated low standard moderation in action

lol

maybe you already are!

;)

🌝

I'm a safemoon mod

The dream job!

lol

tbf, an "Official Monero toilet cleaner" flair might be fun

I vote for Diego

Too soon? :p

crypto_grampy[m]: I can take this to the mod team

We'll whip out our mops and decide if we will lower our standards or not

Just a bunch of janitors chatting in the janitor closet

Is not lowering ur standards seth, is just about not thinking your reddit mod role is anything special

"Moderating, it's just being a janitor!"

How do y'all decide which size plunger to use

And can you really not use a spanner on a sink faucet

Chamus: Standards and having an ego are different

You specified mods should not have a higher standard for themselves.

Trust me, no mod is glad they are a mod or proud because of it.

Moderating is an awful job that is zero fun and always upsets someone.

Maybe is not for you then

lol

Said as someone who is clearly not a mod of a large community.

Fair point

lol

Believe what you will, we take moderation very seriously and do our best.

But my point refereed to you feeling it is awful to be a mod

We have very high standards for each other and consider it a duty that is much-needed and ill-appreciated.

Chamus: Have never met a mod who enjoyed it

Because it's not a job you can enjoy

It's a duty that must be fulfilled by someone, and people step up and fill it.

Not with that mentality

Moderator of a multi billion dollar cryptocurrency community with over 200k members where there's definitely not weird incentives at play*

Lol

needmoney90: Well, true, moons may play a role in enjoyment for them

That's us too seth

I have no moons

am sad

If you wanna moderate your sandbox as a janitor where there's no reason for bad actors to step in and throw a wrench in the works, and then compare it to what we do here, go for it. I don't need to convince anyone of why we need standards.

You lack a lot of the perspective necessary to understand exactly what you're proposing.

You reckon?

How much do you know about me man

Troll on, I'm not taking the bait

Not trolling

Conversation over if you want

Have a good day sir

Tfw someone that doesn't do your job walks up and tells you how you should do your job

I don't have to be a janitor to know that if a pipe is clogged, you do not throw more shit at it

Lol

haha

<needmoney90> "Troll on, I'm not taking the..." <- Thing is, you already did

Just because someone is not in your shoes doesn't mean they can't sympathies

The fact that comparing mods and janitors gets this much traction is a damm shame

i second the motion of chamus for janitor mod

Rucknium[m]: midipoet - the issue was not that it was more lucrative to work for alternative scam projects

it was just that it was viable for their lives and peace of mind

that means we failed as a community to make up our minds to secure their salaries and benefits

part of that was we were disrupted as a community

the bullshit asymmetry principle makes it easy for anyone to come and drown out legitimate points before the legitimate points gain influence in policy making

the community is the one with the vulnerability here

as long as people do not make up their minds to hold everyone in the community to a high standard - then anyone will be able to disrupt a process of good decision making

the problem is that we allow lots of people in the community who may believe in monero but who do not know right from wrong to influence conversations

that's on all of you personally. Monero's culture wasn't made by us promoting merely whatever would appear to pump the price temporarily

if we want to attract and keep good people then that culture must not be compromised

however there's a solid chance that the culture is actively being compromised right now

those who would seek to do it would require plausible deniability and apparent legitimacy until their job is done

beware of a person appearing legitimate merely because people appear to support that person

we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than such animalistic impulses as popularity contests

if we do not then the community can never expect the project to survive much less to be taken seriously by academic researchers who do actually know right from wrong

however much other people use the term "ego", it is the height of pride to ignore or ridicule these sentiments

you will all show your priorities by whether you think highly of people's actual lives in supporting the researchers who do know right from wrong, or if you will instead prioritize your popularity contests backing whoever seems to get the most attention on twitter

endogenic "that means we failed as a community to make up our minds to secure their salaries and benefits" in my opinion this is exactly the most pressing issue Monero has to ensure sustainability

Monero has everything it takes to become a global powerhouse in top-talent attraction, and we the community should rush to capitalise on this potential.

endogenic: what's the actual point behind the wall of text? What are actionable steps you're recommending?

Community funding should only get funneled through non-for-profit vechicles. Period.

Chamus: what are you doing to help make that "global powerhouse" reality happen?

Or what do you propose other's do for you to make it happen?

I have tried in the past

So many people around here love talking and do nothing tangible.

dont rush to judge seth

So let's see some concrete action or realistic suggestions and driving those suggestions.

I'm not judging anyone?

Wow

you might get burned

Much

I'm asking for something more than just walls of text

sethsimmons: do you have any idea who i am?

There are literally thousands of people chatting and participating in Monero community spaces, and very, very few actually contribute in meaningful ways past that.

endogenic: Yes.

perhaps the problem is you're not ready to admit your culpability

I know what you have done in the past, I mean what do you propose out of this.

You really seem to have a chip on you shoulder seth

Against what?

Against.. Do you even know what you're saying

I just say is not wise rushing to judge

I like focused action, not endless chatting.

I get tired of being one of the few driving real action.

Them take a seat an relax

if someone is not ready to admit their role in the problem or if they have a conflict of interest or ulterior motives then they won't be able to pick up on what i'm hinting at . and it only appears to you as though i'm hinting at something when it's relatively plain to people to actually *want* to know

s/Them/Then/

all you have to do is ask me questions with genuine interest and i will tell you

And being called a "janitor" for a part of that action by the same person who said "I have not and could never" do more for Monero than a certain banned individual.

and seth you do not know what i have done in the past

you keep rushing

all you know is what you were exposed to

Something mught be cooking Seth

endogenic: I literally asked you a question with genuine interest.

just sayin'

?

What is

sethsimmons: adding your thought that there was nothing actionable or that it was a wall of text does not qualify as genuine interest. sorry buddy

You love insulting me and denigrating the work I do publicly -- what are you doing to help drive forward the change you seem to want to see?

(that is to Chamus, not you endogenic)

from my perspective you are generating walls of text as well seth

endogenic: I asked what the action you wanted out of it was.

i want you to humble yourself for a moment, let's start with that

I couldn't find the actual actionable detail from your messages, so I asked for clarification.

Action!=reflection

Excuse me for wanting to better understand.

For starters, since you wanna go there Seth

endogenic: I'm not coming from a place of pride, here.

your replies have the mark of someone more interested in winning an argument than understanding and benefiting people

Although of course I am not perfect in that area.

There is no argument?

I want to know what you both are proposing that is actionable and helpful.

then stop contradicting what i'm saying

let's start with that

and how exactly are you supporting my work in the monero community, anyway, Seth?

I approached Justin

do you know any of the things i've posted on reddit recently? or the actionable steps i've proposed in the past?

With this roadmap to turn Monero into a attraction powerhouse

endogenic: What work, currently?

it's easy to claim in front of people here that i have no actionable steps when the end result is merely the disruption of an effort towards the right direction

I don't know of anything but I don't keep up with you.

sethsimmons: so you don't know

it's better for you to spend some time learning first then

before you try to teach people

Turn monero into a talent attraction powerhouse*

I didn't say you didn't, I asked for what they were lol

Chamus: Great!

Are you able to take up driving it to completion?

There’s no need for any “Monero development funds” managed by a board of a handful of elected members, and there is certainly no need to funnel CCS funding through for-profit entities like we tried to in the past.

I worked as a headhunter for the tech industry globally and for over a decade. I have been exposed to FLOSS and innovation management as well as with countless searches for technical profiles, and think there is a way in which which Monero could start embarking top talent systematically

The approach would look as follows:

1. We interview Core Team members and Top Monero Devs to see what are the most urgent, relevant, revolutionary features they could conceive Monero could have if we only we had the right people working on it

2. We decide talent needs on a per project basis and present CCS proposals for funding

3. If proposal gets funded we go to the market and headhunt for the right talent to head the projects (I’d be happy to run these searches pro bono)

4. If we're able to recruit the right talent (which we will if the budget is there) we open a “disposable” Estonian NGO (Estonia’s ease of compliance and “E-Residency” provide the ideal structure to funnel funding for such a universal FLOSS Projects as Monero) that wil only serve to fund the salaries of the devs working on that one

particular CCS-funded project. Once the project is completed, the Estonian NGO gets forever shutdown. So not “the Monero Foundation” but disposable “monero foundations”, as to avoid centralisation.

5. If we're unable to recruit (once again, unlikely if we have the budget), money goes back to donors

6. Then we move to the next projects and follow steps 1-5 once again

That seems like an excellent approach!

I look forward to seeing it happen.

That is a desperate need for Monero moving forward, IMO, so glad to see you're stepping up and helping to solve it.

sethsimmons Gladly I found someone in the community who is helping to make this happen

We also need talent for MRL. Not only programmers.

It can be done

Yes.

Divide labor and conquer.

I would imagine that proposal is for both, seems like it.

If the search criteria and the budget are reasonable, and we have a legal vehicle to funnel salaries

Rucknium[m]: it's not just talent which is needed, but a commitment to look after those people

so far we failed there

We could find any type of profile

sethsimmons for starters the actionable step I'm going to suggest for you to is to shadow me for some time

sethsimmons: Search for MRL talent should look different, IMHO.

to be quite honest you raise a lot of red flags to me

what concerns me is that this community seeks leadership and keeps taking refuge in abusive people

the path to success for monero is extremely clear to me

the problem is whether people are ready to hear it

we need all the help we can get in encouraging interest in confirming that plan rather than divisiveness and attempts to grab positions of influence among people who are looking for someone who is capable of leading

i'm going to sign off now - i have work to do which i find little help in accomplishing. frankly, i dont trust very many people anymore either

when you demonstrate to me that i can trust you then i will start to tell you more

You da man endogenic, I have always been very grateful for your contributions to Monero

Estonian NGO?

you mean LLC?

There might be friendlier jurisdictions to what we need, but probably not

no

NGO

non for profit

obvs

In Estonia it's oü

NGO means non governmental organization

exactly

Do we have any Estonians here?

Not non profit

is a term for the third sector

<endogenic> "Seth for starters the actionable..." <- In what role and for what purpose?

you dont need estonians!, but we probably more than a few in Monero

generally, non-profits are limited in the type of actives they can engage in

we only need to fund development

they can very well do that

what do you wanna do?

If you want to do taxes, having Estonians on board will help, trust me

*activities

you dont need estonians

anyone can become a estonian with the e residence

is 100 euro

for company, you need a resident agent

Is one of ther genius innovative feats

locally

they are a tiny country so they open themselves to global talent and entrepeneurship via a estonian e residnce

yes

Yes

but you still need a local agent

But is super cheap

Of course, it has trade offs

better than cipher stack no?

that does not apply man

All those legal vehicles in your link are for profit

private limited company (OÜ) = LLC

You can also set up a non-profit association (MTÜ), regulated by Non-profit Associations Act. Since the aim of a non-profit organisation is not to generate profit, the taxation differs from taxation of limited companies. Please also note that at least 1/2 of board members must reside in Estonia, EEA or Switzerland.

Exactly!

MRL had a need that was discussed and known and yet nobody acted except for cypher stack

what exactly was the need that MRL had?

That speaks poorly of MRL I guess?

does it?

there was one member of the MRL that had a need, he could have outsourced that all (with close to zero work on his side) and charge next CCS for it

If they needed action and a 3rd party was the only one that took action, yes

it's not like there were no alternatives to Cypher stack

Anyway

Let's focus on the merit or not of this proposal

Chamus: or poorly on the community

also wasn't there MAGIC already?

That too

Yes

Agreed

yes we need no circular firing squads

Magic is so suboptimal vs Estonia

+Monero is global

Donors are global

Devs are globally based and more affordable abroad

sure

Something that exists is always better than something that does not exist. I do like this Estonia idea

Maybe magic makes sense for American talent

but not beyond that

Plus with Magic you get them vetoing what they want

Which is what these disposable ngos solve

that centralisation

No one amasses too much power, like is the case with magic

Chamus: You should not expect scholars to do administrative/accounting work. If/when MRL says they need an admin/accounting solution, it would be best for someone outside of MRL to ensure that the need is filled.

that work can be completely outsourced for a fee

with minimal work on the contracting party

Yes, I'm talking about on boarding top technical talent

Why can't we do most of these things via CCS?

Developers and Academic researchers

you pay a lawyer, you pay accountants, you set an LLC, done.

Make Monero even more a powerhouse of talent attraction that it already is with all of you cool kids working on it ;)

LLC is for profit

sure

it would be under the person being contracted

Rucknium[m]: people are not always willing to accept the volatility of the CCS

Community development should be funded through non for profit vehicles. period.

Is very doable

No reason to involve profiteers really

I'm not saying to involve profiteers

if we address the volatility then OK

We convert

We ask, we get funded we convert

I'm saying that if someone, that wants to work for monero, and isn't ok receiving monero from the CCS can always established an LLC and charge that to the community

it's not like scholars have to do that work themselves, people will do that work for you.

nioc: I mean, one option is to disburse funds immediately upon full funding of the proposal. Much less exchange rate risk that way. BCH does it that way with Flipstarter.

Much higher risk of work not getting completed

Rucknium[m]> man, you also had some ideas for recruiting no?

also I'm donating monero to a proposal

not fiat

what if the work is not completed?

But Talent will want to get paid in fiat

the NGO now converts back to monero at whatever rates and sends back to the dev fund?

<Chamus> "All those legal vehicles in your..." <- You can also set up a non-profit association (MTÜ), regulated by Non-profit Associations Act. Since the aim of a non-profit organisation is not to generate profit, the taxation differs from taxation of limited companies. Please also note that at least 1/2 of board members must reside in Estonia, EEA or Switzerland

Chamus: Yes, I do. I am going to post to r/Monero once the El Salvador discussion plays out a bit.

See point 5 of the proposal

Yes Sudo

Exactly that is what I am recommending!

MTU

Chamus: Not necessarily. I don't, for instance. Being paid in BCH or XMR helps me stay pseudonymous, anyway.

Chamus, receiving Monero also aligns better the incentives

Academic researchesr maybe see things different?

Historically all the best talent Monero attracted received in Monero too

NGO is the wrong term guys

even the Academic researchers

That era is passed

Trust me

People dont know Monero

Is not an easy pitch

it has more users than ever

I tell you as a headhunter

why do you think it has passed?

and it was easier when it was much smaller?

When I mentioned oü that was in response to the mention of llc

Because now we need to poach talent from universities and the corporate world to keep growing

Monero fans are already working on Monero

or for Firo

:p

Now we need to onboard great talent that has never heard of monero

If they have heard of it great

But is not gonna be usual

Chamus: A certain subset of talent from universities would be willing to accept XMR directly.

Do u know them?

Lets talk to them

Lets bring them onboard

But I guarantee you we would not have an easy time convincing most talent to accept salaries in Bitcoin, let alone Monero

As crazy as this may sound

We live in a bubble

I'm not disclosing my exact background, but I am and/or have been in the university orbit. I am in the middle of writing an overhaul of the mixin selection algorithm. I am an empirical microeconomist. I mean, maybe I see things too narrow since I just assume that there are others out there like me. Maybe not.

See

monero-project/research-lab #86#issuecomment-905800761

See also

Man, how can I explain this

Let's say you are the perfect candidate, my Cleint will pay me 50k for a profile like yours, I present to you the role and you are interested

Under all those circumstances, I'd say we would still have less than 5% chance of closing that placement

Statistically

Headhunting for top talent is super hard

We should not expect them to happily accept Monero

They have many options but we want them to work for Monero

Let's facilitate that

This is looking at it backwards

The first qualification is an ideological orientation toward the necessity of protecting people's privacy

Anyway, I took this proposal to 3 different people in the community

Justin and two others

People do not generally become scholars because they are looking to make lots of money

Money doesn't really motivate them that much. They are motivated by a few things of varying importance, as far I have been able to tell

Man I have been headhunting for many years, I know the market

Justin was only interested in a dvelopment fund ran by an elected board and for which Magic would always have veto powers

The second person never replied to me

And the third person is working on making this happen

* Reputation/fame

* Working on interesting problems that fully engage their minds

* Making a positive impact on the world around them

* Yes, money is a factor but often it is not that important.

Do you have any idea how scarce talent like Sarang is?

You can not filter beyond that

Chamus: I somewhat doubt you know scholar. The type of people that MRL needs.

I am familiar with Sarang's profile

What do you mean

Where Monero needs most attention is not in the cryptography, but in the statistics at this point.

Ok

read point one of my proposal

The set of people that can do statistical work is quite large

i dont get ur point

What are you getting into

Yes, I fully agree with point one. First it needs to be determined what talent is needed

If is so large and peope wanna get paid in Monero

Why are they not here?

Why did we have Cipher Stack come to play then

No outreach!

Rucknium[m] is correct

Monero also looks like a joke to a lot of these people because of the lack of qualification of those reaching out

among other things.

I had no idea that I could contribute to Monero development, and I've been aware of Monero for years. Monero is sort of esoteric. It has a privacy model with overlapping and interlocking features

they need to know they can put their trust in us

endogenic: This is totally fixable

i agree

well, in theory

I'm grateful for your input as well Rucknium

I was just fiddling with monermooo 's Townforge blockchain game since I thought it was, like, way cool. Then I got into Matrix/IRC. Then boom, a month later I am re-writing a substantial part of Monero.

One key thing we need to ensure going forward is that first contact with the "candidates" allows them to shield their true identity. Allow them the option of remaining anon if they want

Governments are like bulls in china shops. I am concerned that somehow work on Monero and similar projects may become illegal in certain jusridictions.

Recruiting programmers is a somewhat separate issue that I have no solid opinions on.

"I was just fiddling with monermooo 's Townforge blockchain game since I thought it was, like, way cool. Then I got into Matrix/IRC. Then boom, a month later I am re-writing a substantial part of Monero" <- You da man Rucknium[m]>

Lol thanks :D

Rucknium[m]: "Tne key thing we need to ensure going forward is that first contact with the "candidates" allows them to shield their true identity. Allow them the option of remaining anon"

Candidates are goin to get very scared

lmao

If you pitch them a new work opportunity and tell them "maybe you wanna remain an anon for this one chief"

lol

That may be true. I am not sure. I don't think I would be working on cryptocurrency if I couldn't remain anon. My views and situation may be unusual, however.

No is a fair point even

Because maybe it is indeed better to remain anon, or at least have the right to choose

Just thought pitching that to a candidate would be hilarious

Wake up, Neo...

The Matrix has you...

Follow the white rabbit.

plus, we would generally be selecting people who understand the danger of e.g. blanket surveillance

otherwise they're not generally the people who are capable of understanding the principles and values inherent in monero

not to mention the concern of the various dangerous people in the world associated with these projects

We are not casting a wide net per se. We are spearfishing.

all aside from that, researchers who we entrust with the analysis and development of the security of monero and its technologies should not have to worry about exposure to such risks

I agree Ruck (can I call you that? :)) ... it's not so hard to tell who would be a strong candidate after listening to them speak a little

besides, i think we already have a lot of accessible talent

Yes, I have found people spontaneously call me Ruck lol. Totally fine. Although it won't do the red ping thing in Matrix.

one problem is whether we are ready to support them

Ok. I am going to write up my little Reddit post. Good ideas all around 💪

I dont know how to impress this upon the community and how to make this message stick and propagate as part of the culture but only extremely special people would stick around and continue to contribute to monero in the absence of a trustworthy and stable working situation. red flags are easily visible to people like that

and we should never ask people to put their families or their life stability at risk when we would not even return the care we're asking them to provide to us

Fluffypopny's arrest, whatever the merits and the facts, would give anyone pause, of course.

that's why we need to make up our mind as a community to draw the line not to support those who have their own motives - and it's hard for us to detect - which is why we must be continuously vigilant

Rucknium[m]: indeed but it's easy for people to hide in the darkness

and it's also easy for certain intelligent people to deceive a community who has a hope for benevolent leadership

endogenic: What specifically are you referring to here?

Rucknium[m]: it's hard for me to speak concretely at the present time for a few reasons

I beg your understanding and patience and hope that what I can say can become a good enough basis for further confirmation

it's hard to spot abusive people until time passes and the result comes out

but once you know what they do it becomes easier

I find all this infighting and cloak and dagger stuff entertaining, but maybe I am "far down the long tail of the distribution". ;)

oh you two are gonna like each other with those jokes

haha

Rucknium[m]: it's real

and it has to be brought to light

those who would deny its existence probably participate in it

very few people are interested in monero, in and of itself, for its basic principles

most people are using it for something for their own motives

at least, most visible people right now

that can change over time if monero at its essence can survive

part of the problem is the ability of bad actors to disrupt the community long enough for monero to stagnate

that disruption will not be so visible to the public.

.bbl

:)

<endogenic> "that's why we need to make up..." <- Wen monero witch trials

Back in my day we burned all dissenters

Simpler times grampy

I just assume everyone in these rooms works in the same CIA building or the one down the street

we work remote now

lol

You're just not important enough to be in the office

Maybe next month

So what's the ETA on these job offers

I admit I only skimmed the discussion above because frankly it got too circular and philosophical

but you do your thing for recruiting and I'll do my thing

hopefully both work

I wrote up some stuff last night that I already shared with a few people for early feedback

crypto_grampy[m]: we’ll make a broader announcement first to try and get community buy-in before approaching any potential recruits. the more proposals the better IMO.

<sgp_> "I wrote up some stuff last night..." <- I'll give feedback within a few hours, hopefully.

Rucknium[m]: that will be awesome, but I definitely don't need them today (way too busy with something else to touch MAGIC until tomorrow)

<needmoney90> "You're a bit late there, captain." <- I think it was right on time. A good discussion was had, the Haven shills came out. Thread gone. Now people are writing recruitment proposals. What more could you want?

Lol

To be honest I think if we rely on economic incentives and free market head hunting, we are screwed

IMO, the Noethers worked well, as they believed in the project and what it stood for

I don't like to think of it under either extreme

people need money

people also want other things

people also want money

I agree that it would be good to have a diversity of options for on-boarding talent. People are quite diverse in their points of view, threat models, and personal financial/family situations.

endogenic "the problem is that we allow lots of people in the community who may believe in monero but who do not know right from wrong to influence conversations"

What a precise diagnostic of the situation man

I am going to hold off on posting my half-baked active recruitment sketch on r/Monero until tomorrow. Today there is too much good discussion about the El Salvador situation happening. I don't want to crowd it out or be crowded out by it.

Really interested and looking forward to it man!

You likely have some pretty interesting ideas there

wait, you guys like money?

we should hang out

endogenic "and it's also easy for certain intelligent people to deceive a community who has a hope for benevolent leadership"

so effing true man

Seems like you have been giving all this some thought

I hear there's a hang out thing in late April in New Mexico

to whomever it may concern: banning geonic from reddit is a new low

we need vigilant people

How long is his ban? Is he now a martyr?

how long is irrelevant

it seems as a response to a one line post raising an understandable question

He repeatedly spread misinformation that he knew was false to slander other people's reputations, and when asked to stop, continued

the same could be said of others toward him

So yes. He is gone temporarily, and if he keeps it up he will be gone for good. We don't need a rule saying people can't straight up lie and use misinformation to slander and cause drama.

It does set a strange precedent

He had been asked many times to stop, in PM and otherwise. He was repeatedly nasty about it and refused.

If he refuses to follow the conventions of the space he is occupying, he will (and has) been shown the door. Feel free to create an alternative space where that stuff is allowed if you want.

Calling people "childish and immature", is not necessary to pose a counter view / response. That whole thread was badly handled IMO

This is related to many, many incidents.

jtgrassie: I called the thread what it was, childish and immature

He lied intentionally to get an end (Sarang gone and the community forgetting him) accomplished.

Lied?

Inb4 'but the rules don't explicitly say I can't slander other people by lying'

Well we disagree on the intent

I read the title not as a statement of fact but a question

I confronted him privately and he refused to delete the thread or clarify, and this is just the latest in a *long* history of lying, misinformation, entrapment, etc. that he uses to get what he wants.

Sometimes what he wants is good (Cypherstack clarity and GF transparency), sometimes its not (Sarang deleting all social accounts and yet again being hurt by drama).

His methods are almost always bad, and he literally says "the means justify the ends" and that he will do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

jtgrassie: He told me the intent via PM.

Are you seriously suggesting that his insinuation was a lie?!

His intent was to mislead using misinformation so that the community jettisoned Sarang.

sudo_ki[m]: Yes, Triptych was not delayed due to the contract that had just been signed between Cypherstack and Haven.

Triptych "taking so long" because of sarang is a lie and intentional misinformation.

I laid all of that out in the thread.

"His intent was to mislead using misinformation so that the community jettisoned Sarang." <- seems your interpretation.

I had no idea that the monero community was moderated by such people

Lol

jtgrassie: He literally told me this via PM.

Probably just your opinion, man

sudo_ki[m]: Idk who "such people" are or why this is so upsetting.

Geonic has a long and storied history of semi-useful investigative work couched in harassment, insults, trolling, and lies/misinformation.

This last post was the final straw, but if he decides to change his approach he will be welcomed back gladly.

He has done some good, and I would be glad if he came back and used his talents in a better way.

"Geonic has a long and storied history of semi-useful" <- that's your opinion

So far there have been two people that did not agree with the ban.

jtgrassie: Yes, of course.

Interesting how many people here rather defend the person attacking the contributors instead of the contributors themselves.

The usefulness of what drama he has caused is up for debate and depends on your view.

He will return with a salaried position and be paid to infiltrate and destroy other communities belonging to Monero's competitors

selsta: A sad sign of a consistent issue in the community.

One that geonic has exacerbated and preyed upon for a long time.

His recent passive aggressiveness against pigeons also was also totally unfounded.

And me. And Justin. And sarang. And rehrar. And....

selsta: In reading the post, Geonic was not attacking Sarrang.

Elephant in the room is cypher stack

^^

sethsimmons: Personally, I am concerned about this a bit, but I don't have enough experience or background knowledge to really have a clear opinion. Let's just not turn into r/bitcoin

nikg83[m]: why

jtgrassie: How?

jtgrassie: the whole post hurt sarang, it clearly was attacking and blaming him for triptych "taking so long"

The thing it implies, intentionally, is that Sarang dropped work we funded for a new contract.

crypto_grampy[m]: Where did Sarang land after being on vacation?

Before completion.

nikg83[m]: That is a separate issue, but important.

sethsimmons: It has caused some issues for sure, even recent approach to one of the contributors

Yes, thus it's an issue.

But not this issue we're discussing ATM.

jtgrassie: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pi83hw…ych_is_taking_so/hbq99p5/?context=3 "his unavailability has led to a delay"

sethsimmons: Sort of related, but I will go back to my cave

reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pi83hw…ych_is_taking_so/hbq412p/?context=3 again doubling down it's sarang fault

Of course related, but not this specific issue being discussed.

is there a way geonic could have brought this issue up that would have been more permissible?

Let's sum it up -- Sarang dedicated years of his life to Monero, but decided that the instability and abnormal working situation wasn't the best for him.

He took time off to reset, came back and Cypherstack was a great opportunity for him to jump back into Monero and related privacy protocols, so he took that.

He then took a contract to help complete Triptych multisig work, and has been working on that sense, but it stalled due to a lack of community decision on the protocol approach desired and the importance of multisig.

s/is there a way geonic could have brought this issue up that would have been more permissible?/is there a way geonic could have brought this issue up that would have been permissible/acceptable?/

Geonic ignored the entirety of Sarang's dedication to Monero to focus on a lie that he had delayed Triptych work because Haven contracted him for protocol review.

He used the thread and his status as a prominent community member to attack Sarang and imply that Sarang had failed to complete his Triptych work in a timely manner because of a newly signed contract (that AFAIK has not even started work).

sethsimmons: I don't need commentary on what has / hadn't happened with Triptich/Sarang, the question is about whether it's OK for people to air their own perspective

So instead of Sarang being thanked for his dedication and the community applauding that he can continue working on Monero and related privacy protocols, he gets personally attacked, and some people in the community are fine with that, but mad that the person who has a storied history of this has been temp banned.

sethsimmons: it's honestly sad to see

jtgrassie: Of course it is

Perspective is not the same as intentional misleading of the community.

And not the same when the perp has a long history of similar things (like recording without consent and entrapping Diego, as well as many harassments, insults, and consistent trolling and disruption in community meetings etc.)

sethsimmons: only if the aim *was* intentional misleading, which you're expecting me to trust *you* was his goal

I just feel a ban is heavy handed

Its a temp ban, FWIW, but he has been warned many times in the past.

He was warned in the past for things that turned out to have merit too.

geonic knew exactly what he was doing with this post

Of course, as I have clearly stated.

we as a community shouldn't stifle dissent.

Both publicly and privately.

did the post have a negative effect on sarang's participation in the monero project?

crypto_grampy[m]: Yes, absolutely.

is sarang an essential part of MRL at the moment?

My sense was that he was attacking Cypher Stack, but was a bit sloppy in how Sarang was brought into it. Sarang is not free to work on whatever he wants during business hours for the precise reason that he is now an employee. Pretty simple.

Hang on

One common mistake one might do is to think others who have opposite views to ours only do so because they're ill intentioned

Rucknium[m]: agreed

*agreed he was attacking CypherStack

Rucknium[m]: that would only be true if he didn't explicitly talk about sarang in his comments

wasn't the rehrar recording on a public talk forum thing?

Lol

selsta: This

midipoet: Yes, but Clubhouse is supposed to *not* be recorded by design and no one on the call was informed or able to consent.

I know it's technically public.

sethsimmons: so you are saying it was private?

Or public?

But geonic recorded it and asked leading questions and trolled and prodded Diego to get the "evidence" he wanted to out him.

You cannot have any expectation of privacy on a public forum

Again, the actual situation with Diego was bad and needed a lot of clarity brought forward, but the approach was horrible.

no. You are accusing him of entrapment

having expectation of privacy on clubhouse seems like as stretch

Rehrar spoke on a public forum

Anybody with clubhouse could have joined, could they not?

Or was it an invite only thing?

(not up to date on clubhouse to be honest)

crypto_grampy[m]: he created Triptych so having him around would be quite important, yes

and again it boils down to intent, what you see as a entrapment could've been on his eyes just a way to uncover "the truth"

but it's too late now anyway

it's too late because of a thread one person made?

ComplyLast: Yeah, could be viewed differently. It was clear to me.

midipoet: Public but explicitly against ToS to record.

Obviously how you view that past that point is up to you

It's supposed to be ephemeral

selsta: Only if cypher stack allows

nikg83[m]: wtf are you talking about

he was around

he isn't anymore

cypher stack isn't going to say if he is allowed to be in monero irc

I have to step away for a bit, apologies for leaving in the middle of this but I have a call I need to attend.

selsta: Yah I mean now, can’t he open a ccs proposal directly instead of going through cypher stack ?

he doesn't want to be involved with this community anymore, I don't blame him

selsta: Ok

sethsimmons: "So instead of Sarang being thanked for his dedication and the community applauding" <- Sarang does get thanked, we don't need to ban people who don't applaud

> if someone is not ready to admit their role in the problem or if they have a conflict of interest or ulterior motives then they won't be able to pick up on what i'm hinting at . and it only appears to you as though i'm hinting at something when it's relatively plain to people to actually *want* to know

I'll just drop this here again

ah yes great thank you post, he delivered multi sig and as a thank you he gets blamed for triptych taking so long

with 200+ upvotes

selsta: "he doesn't want to be involved with this community anymore, I don't blame him" <- which is unfortunate for sure. But you think that's all geonic's doing from one post?

he quit all irc / social media after geonic's post, he was hurt by it

I would be too if I put a lot of work into a project and then get blamed for something that isn't my fault

sethsimmons: yeah, it seems not recording is on their ToS, I just checked. Thanks.

which is unfortunate, so we're feelings policing now?

geonic is one person selsta

my point exactly

It is critical that the Monero Project reduce its reliance on all single points of failure, which includes the reliance on a single star researcher to deliver key needs.

I'm sure there's someone out there somewhere in the monero community which doesn't appreciate you either.

sure

me too!

So It was mentioned in that reddit post that the community needs to decide on the next steps (probably without Triptych). What next steps? I think we should probably use something else with robust multi-sig support since I know dark net markets want multi-sig for escrow. And that's one thing Monero has high marketshare over.

I've been somewhat of a CCS critic for some time now. The Cypher Stack might never have raised any eyebrows if funded some other way...

karce[m]: Something else is years away afaik, trying to work/optimise on triptych multisig in the meanwhile should be given a try

* > <@karcey:matrix.org> So It was mentioned in that reddit post that the community needs to decide on the next steps (probably without Triptych). What next steps? I think we should probably use something else with robust multi-sig support since I know dark net markets want multi-sig for escrow. And that's one thing Monero has high marketshare over.

Something else is years away afaik, trying to work/optimise on triptych multisig in the meanwhile should be given a option

no, lelantus spark and seraphis aren't years away

jtgrassie: BCH whispers "Permissionless, self-hosted, noncustodial Flipstarter....."

nikg83[m], Sarang itself said it was far from easy, with some important trade-offs and not ideal

they just have a different address format so all addresses would need to be updated

Seraphis sounds cool. Let's do that one 😀

Rucknium[m] look at the success Monerujo is having by trying to raise directly though

22:51 <jtgrassie> which is unfortunate, so we're feelings policing now? <-- again, this was about posting intentional misinformation, not "feelings", feelings was just a result of it

From my cursory understanding Seraphis has some potentially valuable view key functionalities as well.

ComplyLast: It seems to be slow going, though. I see 5 XMR in the view-only wallet out of a budget request of 179XMR

exactly

selsta: "this was about posting intentional misinformation" says Seth. I suppose I have no reason to question

So would old Monero addresses be no longer usable in new transactions? You'd have to regenerate a new address to receive funds w/ Seraphis?

ComplyLast: So we wait for seraphis? In the meanwhile bump up ringsize with bp+ ?

When will seraphis be deployment ready? 2023?

jeez this isn't complicated people

it's not at all productive to cause an explosion every time someone "just has a genuine question"

full stop

and when presented with good faith facts and discussion from many people, to continue causing larger and larger explosions

it's simply not okay

this isn't a cooperative environment at all

nikg83[m]: "omplicated people

nikg83[m]: 2023 I imagine is the earliest

No one can tell me that old.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pi…g_why_triptych_is_taking_so/hbq412p is a good faith reply. It's simply getting called out for misinformation and then doubling down without any arguments.

only one person has fun in this situation (the attacker), and everyone else suffers

Who are you guys responding to?

jtgrassie: So ringsize bump to 16-24 should be done asap, when v0.1.8 🤔

Bp+ code is now audited ?

nikg83[m]: That would be my vote yes

bp+ is audited

probably November

nioc: Nov-dec should be targeted then

24 will make verification too slow

this has all been discussed on........IRC

isn't the sweet spot regarding verification something like 16/17?

the max spot? seems so

ComplyLast: that was my understanding

the spot where it doesn't amke it worse

exactly

24 is likely too high a bump (as selsta points out), but 16 or so I'd imagine fine

yeah 15-17

if we want to go with non-prime numbers, knaccc has another recommendation

I'm against the "doesn't increase verification time" mindset fwiw

that's an* important factor, sure

but at the end of the day, Monero needs an adequate ringsize to do what it should do on the privacy side

sgp_[m]: Small increase should be fine

knaccc wanted 16

I think anything 15-17 is reasonable

anything above that is arguable but less obvious

If Cypher Stack is what many consider to be the elephant in the room I'm happy to discuss it here.

DiegoSalazar[m]: Was sarang allowed to take a ccs outside of cypher stack ?

If Rucknium 's work on decoy selection can be determined to make our size-11 rings more effective, then increasing ringsize to the point where verification is slowed is a bad move

* > <@diego:cypherstack.com> If Cypher Stack is what many consider to be the elephant in the room I'm happy to discuss it here.

Was sarang allowed to take a ccs outside/independent of cypher stack ?

nikg83[m]: I have no non-compete clauses.

DiegoSalazar[m]: Thanks

carrington[m]: According to much of my analysis, corroborated by others, a medium-term fix to the mixin selection algorithm offers much better privacy boost than a ringsize increase from 11 to 16.

carrington[m]: this is a matter of 11 being small enough with the level of interest out there that it makes me very uncomfortable

Rucknium[m]: any clue to how long improving decoy selection might take?

My working name for the medium-term fix is:

Optimal Static Parametric Estimation of Arbitrary Distributions (OSPEAD)

and that's my feeling assuming the selection algo fits extremely well, which it probably has room for improvement

probably = always

If we make it high priority, which I think we should, probably 2-3 months for OSPEAD. For a more "total" fix that nonparametric estimation brings, maybe 6-12 months after that, depending on how badly we want official peer review, i.e. submit to an academic journal.

nioc: ^

thx

Is there a ringsize which would effectively "cancel out" the benefits of BP+ then that could be a good idea to aim for along with Rucknium 's work (after review)

is there any work being done, or possibilities on the table, to mitigate knaccc attacks?

I think that's probably a bigger elephant in the room than Diego's company

carrington[m]: not much, don't have the exact numbers (and would only apply to an average 2.2 input tx or whatever)

I didn't know knaccc was an elephant

he identifies as one on tuesdays afaik

ComplyLast: poisoned outputs?

EAE EABE stuff

relevant research is on getting next-gen up and running, and also solidifying churning best practices

agree that churning is ideal but realistically a lot of people dont do it

Brandon did a lot of work on the latter, but that's all pretty much unusable however. Scope creep caused that project to implode imho

of course, not something for 90%+ of people

and there's a lot of bad information out there on the community

"dont do it, etc"

but research there would help understand things better

yes but the bible salesman in China still falls under the 90%+ I guess

or the dude selling VPNs to kids for them to play online games

I guess my question is that there's no solution other than churning for the foreseable future right?

sethsimmons: this is what I told you via PM. “You don’t see the connection in the delay, but I do. Monero is not a priority for Sarang and that’s OK. Drawing attention to that is also OK.”

if you’re going to use that as evidence against me, publish the whole conversation.

I then asked you “Let me know what your approach would’ve been when you have time and whether you think it would’ve sparked the same amount of discussion. Genuinely curious.”, to which you responded “not posted”

so the subject is obviously taboo, regardless of the approach

"the ends justify the means"

there are only means

sorry but that has been rolling around in my head for days

I don't doubt that virtually everybody here wants the same thing

ComplyLast: I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at, so I don't have a generic response other than "it's complicated"

assuming everyone is going to be the subject of sophisticated targeted surveillance isn't really fair though imo

this is a lot more effort than just querying a KYT tool

sethsimmons: Would’ve been nice if you’d said “delete your thread or I’m recommending a ban”. No, instead you were “collecting evidence” under the guise of a friendly conversation to be presented at an opportune moment orchestrated by sgp. That’s low.

this is obviously about much more than this thread and it goes back to the thwarting of sgp's, needmoney90' and DiegoSalazar's LLC idea. Diego's firing added fuel to the fire and now they are lusting for revenge.

hope this appeases you somewhat, but I doubt it

On the topic of MAGIC, is anyone interested in forming a non-US nonprofit? There is some benefit in having one, but it's not something that US people should set up and administer

someone told me about Estonia foundations but I know nothing about them at all

What are the benefits? And I'm assuming EU would be preferred if there are jurisdiction based benefits?

<Rucknium[m]> "Personally, I am concerned about..." <- Not a Reddit mod, but my point of reference has always been the John Block article on r/btc when performing mod actions. TMK mods on Matrix/IRC and Reddit have yet to do anything remotely close to what's documented in that article

<ComplyLast> "geonic is one person selsta..." <- And yet the upvotes assuming they weren't paid for and comments assuming not sock puppets are more than just geo

If a bunch of people upvoted geo's comments slandering you why would you stick around if you're a skilled cryptographer?

<carrington[m]> "What are the benefits? And I'm..." <- basically anything that touches the US needs to comply with US tax reporting laws

which could be avoided by using a different entity if funds are donated by non-US, managed by non-US, and distributed to non-US

having the US entity in the middle means that you need tax reporting

some nuance of course but that's the high level benefit

<xmrscott[m]> "Not a Reddit mod, but my point..." <- do you have a link to this article handy?

crypto_grampy[m]: medium.com/@johnblocke/a-brief-and-…censorship-in-r-bitcoin-c85a290fe43

<xmrscott[m]> "If a bunch of people upvoted geo's comments slandering you..." ah, so this isn't about my post really, it's about the number of people who had similar concerns as mine. got it.

careful there that's gonna strip away seth's argument that I single handedly made sarang quit

* Not a Reddit mod, but my point of reference has always been the John Block article on r/bitcoin when performing mod actions. TMK mods on Matrix/IRC and Reddit have yet to do anything remotely close to what's documented in that article

nikg83[m] "Elephant in the room is cypher stack"

shhhhh

You might wake him up ;)

there were issues with MRL funded that were known and discussed for quite a while with the community coming up with no solutions. Both full time researchers left. AIUI Cypher Stack was created in part to address some of these concerns

geonic: did people upvote solely based on how you portrayed things or did they understand the full story?

I am not on any side here.

nioc: not sure how we can know that. "the medium is the message", as McLuhan said

geonic: it seems that you don't show on matrix

nioc: How would he know this for certain anymore than anyone else? Anyway, the former certainly seems more likely and he is temp-banned so cannot reply

nioc: their loss :p

carrington[m]: he is on irc as am I,

Chamus: I already said I'd talk about it if people wanted some information.

Well, within reason. :)

<sgp_[m]> "which could be avoided by..." <- I agree with earlier comments that this is somewhat putting the cart before the horse. First the researchers passionate about Monero need to be found (anon or not). Next, it needs to be determined if they accept cypherpunk payment or need something more traditionally structured. If so, then single-purpose nonprofit entities can be set up for that.

Realistically we are talking about few or singular researchers who need to be paid in this way so setting up entities across the world in anticipation of paying researchers seems premature

That's just my uneducated opinion though 🤷‍♂️

individual contributors can always set up their own entities if they want to better manage how they get paid or whatever

jtgrassie " "So instead of Sarang being thanked for his dedication and the community applauding" <- "Sarang does get thanked, we don't need to ban people who don't applaud"

like if they want to do a complicated US LLC -> Caymans -> Seychelles -> Estonia -> etc, that's on them

Seth knows better about stuff man, he a mod :p jtgrassie

<sgp_[m]> "individual contributors can..." <- I'm somewhat confused. I thought the whole goal was to let "researchers do research" and find a way to organise a "normal fiat job" for that want/need it

it is. I'm saying if someone wants their own complicated thing though, they can set it up themselves

they definitely don't need to and I don't expect people to do this; it was just an exaggerated example

<sgp_[m]> "someone told me about Estonia foundations but I know nothing about them at all"

It wasn't as coincidental as that tbh Justin

let me post screenshots for reference

How interpret it is that you took advantage of my contact to tried and slide a centralised development fund over you would hold vwto power through Magic

Apologies for my bad grammar, I am not a native speaker

But I have the screenshots

Will post them on twitter, my handle is @checkmatehere

wait what

Will post what I told you on twitte

what I said to you

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

and how you explained it to the community

you said you wanted to help pay devs with a foundation, and you recommended an Estonia one. I don't want to make an Estonian one because I already have a US nonprofit that took years to set up. So, I'm going forward with possibly expanding it based on the success we've already had for BP+ and DEF CON

you can share screenshots but I don't think it will result in supporting your claim tbh

I was never going to open a separate Estonian foundation for every contributor or whatever, you can do that if you want

Is not about you opening a estonian ngo

is how you spinned it

into from "I'm a headhunter with a decade of experience, here's a fairly descentralised way to funnel funding for development" to "the topic of a dev fund has reappeared on my dm's. What do you think of opening a dev fund, ruled by a board and on which Magic have complete veto power legally"

I'm not trying to spin anything, you make whatever you want to make, and you don't have to endorse what I work on

I offered pro bono work worth up to 40k per month

And you did not even discuss the possibility with the community cause it would mean Magic would not happen

Is how I see it

You are dangerous for Monero

farcaster community update is out: reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/pjqkuj/farcaster_community_update_august

go pitch your idea here now, the more the merrier. I do see things very differently than you however

ty zkao

your recommendation though literally included "we open a disposable Estonian NGO that wil only serve to fund the salaries for that one particular project and then it will get shut down"

yes

is here+

I posted it today

who is going to do that

so be careful at trying to spin it yet again

can you please just post all the screenshots at this point, makes my life easier at this point

I'm not gonna discuss my proposal with you

I believe you act in bad faith and lack the expertise

Anyone else

I'm all open for questions

Can you post the screenshots?

also would like to see

hmm okay, makes no sense to me, but I'll step back and allow you to discuss your other Fund or related idea with others

got some popcorn in the oven

<Chamus> "And you did not even discuss the..." <- This makes zero sense. YOU can discuss possibilities with the community and even act on them independently, and that has no bearing or relation to what happens with MAGIC

sgp_: are you the gatekeeper to making contributions?

it all makes sense. we enjoyed too much of a lull in drama. now we must catch up

Indeed. COVID19 is gone. xeugu level nonsense drama by bad faith actors has resumed. Nature is healing.

Some of you don't take the time to look at Wownero memes and it shows.

screenshots posted

on twitter

What I said or what he said in public, not anything Jusin might have told me in private

How is that proof of him wanting your proposal to fail/not happen in favor of MAGIC?

Wth is happening in this community lmao

i'm very confused as to why sgp_ is involved with this at all... especially if you consider him dangerous

I thought people wanted to volunteer needed to approach Justin

why else

That was ther first time I ever spoke to him in DM, I think

Oh no, I had offered in the past

But I had not followed up I think

Same thing, we had never contacted for other than me offering to volunteer in Monero

I thought he was the go to guy

I don't know if there are any go-to guys or women here

Well

John Oliver contacted Justin

Or who did they contact?

You can do whatever you want here. You don't need to ask for permission to set up an estonian foundation and no one is in charge. Many would be happy to help

I know

That is the problem

Having the wrong figureheads

Which will come uo no matter what

Chamus: He contacted a press email that includes several people

But lets focus on them being good figureheads

There is no one person.

Chamus: I think your plan could work, is a nice outline, etc. One thing to keep in mind is that Monero might not be constrained in the number of programmers, but rather the number of MRL-type people. Which requires a different recruitment strategy

I understand man

I promise

We can talk all you want in private

Not now as is 1:30 AM

but I am happy to discuss my background

Well, we can talk in public no problem.

not my background

haha

not now at least

<crypto_grampy[m]> "twitter.com/CheckMateHer..." <- How do you even know he was referring to your DMs and not someone else's here?

He told me so

That screenshot

Justin gave send it to me

I could not believe how he had spin it and just said "ok good night mate, cheers"

or something like that

I did not know what else to say after such blatant spinning to favour magic

it's normal that Justin would favour the project he is very involved on

the same way it will be normal for you in the future to favour your solution

both can co-exist and are not mutually exclusive

crypto_grampy[m]: my favorite wow meme suchwow.xyz/uploads/wannabuy.jpg

defo

they can co exist

explains me

I do not favour any solution

if you dont think you can collaborate with him, sure. you dont need to :)

I dont see any blockers for your solution

It was just curious how he spinned it and worst, that he is leeting volunteer work offerings slip

and I think it will be welcomed as well

I want monero to recruit and I want to help

have zero emotional involvement in my proposal

even better

In general, I think this community suffers from a perception that there is more authority than there actually is and ends up slinging mud at perceived institutions. Blaming cypherstack, blaming mrl, blaming magic, blaming the llc. In reality these are very loose and fluid entities

all of them come from the same 5 people

all of those

Just sayin'

Anyway

MRL is not an entity

late here

enough fighting

and it doesn't come from the people on the others

good nigt all

magic has several members that are not involved in any of the others

cypherstack same afaik

Magic is suboptimal to a Estonian non for profit for any talent that is not in the US

Magic is an american solution for American talent

so there's some overlap between magic and the llc so what

sure

I'm offering a global solution

;)

Good night!

I have not seen anyone say it's a bad idea or you shouldn't go forward with it

I think the CCS would have no trouble getting funded

Yeah I don't know why there is even conflict here

I shared the screenshot of all the DMs

Do your thing chamus and let SGP do his

Makes no sense to cause drama for no reason

exactly

also Magic has no relationship whatsoever with Monero

sgp_[m]: Gotta stir that pot

Love it

<crypto_grampy[m]> "twitter.com/CheckMateHer..." <- This tweet thread is something I just don't understand

Why does it even exist

they could very well just fund Zcash research and it would be completely within their rights

Just let me be 😂 Trying to help my god

other than sgp_[m]'s dubious compliance efforts I think he means well btw

so you do your thing, he does his, and whoever does theirs

lots of drama lately

I blame luigi1111

We should plan a Friday late night game or something

What about Monero codenames

have never played Monero codenames but seems like a good option

Find 3 cards that relate to Luigi:

Stir, drama, blame

I could see it working

We did it once a year ago youtu.be/wf3BiUuATiM

Small turnout

Seth thinks Diego is a money crazed person? Are my eyes seeing double? twitter.com/tdrud/status/1435387886732464132?s=21

sgp_[m], seems fun

yeah it must be drama season. drop netflix, subscribe to Monero

sgp_[m]: What's that translate to in UTC?

probably too late carrington[m]

like 2-3 am on Saturday.

Midnight lol, for 7p CT