-
bob99[m]
bob99[m]: I really like your idea, but is the work worth the effort?
-
bob99[m]
s/effort/result/
-
Rucknium[m]
bob99: I think many surveillance apps are combining messaging and payment. It's not clear if this is due to user demand, but it would be good to have an anti-surveillance alternative to this pairing of functionality.
-
pigeons
Now that they are seemingly monetizing via their interest in mobilecoin they might not like compettion
-
valldrac[m]
entry1[m]: The app will allow to sign up to either Signal network or Molly network, but not at the same time. When registered to Signal, they would be able to chat with contacts in Signal but not in Molly. The network won't be federated. Maybe in the future we can make Molly to keep connections to both networks simultaneously
-
valldrac[m]
bob99[m]: I tried to respond to this in adding a couple of comments to the merge request
-
valldrac[m]
<pigeons> "What do you use for your User..." <- Same user agent as Signal
-
Rucknium[m]
I'd say WeChat, iMessage/ApplePay, and WhatsApp fall into this category of payment/messaging combined apps. And of course now Signal itself with MobileCoin.
-
pigeons
anyway i don't think "technically not possible to ban" is accurate. They don't care enough yet, and yes you could cat-and-mouse their enforcement mechanism and they could change it again, but that's no fun
-
entry1[m]
<valldrac[m]> "The app will allow to sign up to..." <- Thanks for your response and work
-
valldrac[m]
<pigeons> "Now that they are seemingly..." <- Yeah, this is a risk we're taking
-
valldrac[m]
s/network/networks/
-
valldrac[m]
<pigeons> "anyway i don't think "technicall..." <- I still believe they can't, but I'll change it just in case I'm wrong 😕
-
valldrac[m]
> it is believed is not technically feasible to ban Molly from the Signal servers without banning also all devices without Google GMS services
-
valldrac[m]
pigeons: 👆️
-
valldrac[m]
* this in the merge request, adding a
-
crypto_grampy[m]
<valldrac[m]> "> it is believed is not technica..." <- Why would a device not want to have GMS
-
crypto_grampy[m]
🤡
-
crypto_grampy[m]
Excited about the proposal valldrac . If monero is good money, people should be able to integrate it however and wherever they want, including in-messenger payments... This will be a very refreshing new use case imo
-
ajs_[m]
selsta Session development is financed by dodgy Monero fork with a large premine and dev tax
-
ajs_[m]
It is also administered by a "shell" foundation in a five eyes jurisdiction
-
selsta
I'm aware if that, but I'm interested in technical differences.
-
xmrscott[m]
Not only that, but in Australia which has arguably more notorious for anti-encryption laws rep than even the US
-
crypto_grampy[m]
Bitcoin.org got hacked fyi all
-
crypto_grampy[m]
You won't get double what you send
-
xmrscott[m]
lol the double scam making a come back
-
runfox
how could I connect my monero gui to my btcpay server's monero node?
-
valldrac[m]
<selsta> "I'm aware if that, but I'm..." <- Then your question could have be more specific 😉 Just joking. Give me some time and I will reply with some insights comparing security and privacy
-
selsta
test
-
Inge
test failed
-
selsta
seems like it really did fail :S
-
Inge
feel the love <3
-
selsta
that's annoying
-
selsta
sethsimmons: not fixed yet
-
sethsimmons
selsta: Sigh
-
selsta
it's what the #libera-matrix bridge suggested
-
selsta
so either we did it wrong or it's not the correct fix
-
Inge
Guacomo: "If these leaks are to be believed, Monero is worse than Wasabi (65% relinked vs 60% relinked for Wasabi)"
-
Inge
Seems like a far too simplistic statement, but it will filter out there for a while
-
selsta
He can't read the slides.
-
selsta
65% of cases (not transactions) had a "lead", that doesn't mean that they have anything linked
-
selsta
a lead can be a IP address
-
selsta
or even less
-
selsta
meanwhile 60% are linked for Wasabi
-
Inge
and Jimmy is waay out there. Saying it is difficult to run a monero node, and the blocks are huge because of all the privacy stuff
-
Inge
SMH
-
sethsimmons
Inge: Some idiotic new podcast, or what?
-
Inge
just Tone doing Bitcoin Brief right now
-
sethsimmons
lol
-
sethsimmons
why waste your time
-
selsta
why would you watch tone lol
-
selsta
yea
-
sethsimmons
It's pure noise
-
Inge
ahahaa
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
It most likely uses metadata from exchanges (both full doxxes from KYC exchanges & IP addresses/addresses/amounts from accountless exchanges) and block explorers, no attack on Monero's cryptography.
-
Inge
you guys are harsh. Tone is pretty decent on trading - but the rest is just noise.
-
mechanic41turk[m
<Inge> "Seems like a far too simplistic..." <- he has a simple mind.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
-
Inge
But it is interesting to be reminded how little people who know a LOT about one blockchain really have only cursory information about other blockchains
-
sethsimmons
Inge: No one respects his views on anything else, and few even do on trading
-
sethsimmons
Not concerned with his noise causing issues broadly.
-
sethsimmons
Inge: Inge: They know very little about even Bitcoin
-
sethsimmons
That is a group of three influencers, not devs and not educators.
-
mechanic41turk[m
Inge: running a monero node is easier than running a btc one.
-
Inge
I don't think you can say Jimmy Song knows very little about bitcoin
-
sech1
"influencers" are cancer
-
Inge
mechanic41turk[m: You don't need to tell me. I run both
-
sethsimmons
They live to promote their brand, not anything good.
-
mechanic41turk[m
Inge: I was addressing the lurkers.
-
sethsimmons
Inge: He either knows very little or willingly lies to mislead.
-
sethsimmons
Both are bad, the second is malicious.
-
sethsimmons
He just cares about NgU and promoting himself.
-
mechanic41turk[m
sech1: they are more like propagandists.
-
Inge
promoting liquid for privacy?? heh.
-
mechanic41turk[m
these figures gotta "nudge" people with less understanding of technical topics surrounding crypto currencies.
-
ComplyLast
sethsimmons, Tone Vays was shamed by some monero folks at HCPP a couple years ago
-
sethsimmons
Shamed how, and why?
-
ComplyLast
his understanding of bitcoin is akin to functional analphabetism
-
ComplyLast
he had some weird idiotic theoris about pow
-
ComplyLast
and how bitcoin created pow
-
ComplyLast
etc
-
ComplyLast
just you run of the mil dumbass
-
mechanic41turk[m
lol
-
nioc
ComplyLast: ty, I have never seen that word used before :)
-
ComplyLast
which word?
-
sethsimmons
Yeah that was a new one for me haha
-
sethsimmons
TIL
-
ComplyLast
which word?
-
nioc
the big one
-
sethsimmons
"analphabetism"
-
ComplyLast
dumbass?
-
ComplyLast
is that not a word?
-
ComplyLast
did I made it up?
-
sethsimmons
The issue I have with him is not that he's a "dumbass", but that he chooses to act as if he has a deeper understanding than he does to the detriment of his audience.
-
sethsimmons
I have heard "dumbass" before 😅
-
ComplyLast
sorry iuf i made that word up
-
ComplyLast
I'm a creative guy
-
ComplyLast
seems legit though
-
ComplyLast
you just described most maximalism in a nutshell though
-
ComplyLast
that's how it rolls
-
Rucknium[m]
Dunning-Kruger
-
ComplyLast
<Inge> Guacomo: "If these leaks are to be believed, Monero is worse than Wasabi (65% relinked vs 60% relinked for Wasabi)"
-
ComplyLast
<Inge> Seems like a far too simplistic statement, but it will filter out there for a while
-
ComplyLast
yes a lead might be an IP or even less
-
ComplyLast
and the difference might stem from completely passive observation (on btc) to very active poisoned output stuff on Monero
-
ComplyLast
so it's not apples to apples
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
IP not even from Monero's blockchain but from a compliant exchange or honeypot blockexplorer...
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
I don't think it is as serious as poisoned outputs.
-
ComplyLast
I'm sure they do that
-
ComplyLast
on certain cases at least
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Even then, a few churns over some hours/days would fix that.
-
ComplyLast
sure
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
They didn't break Monero's cryptography or decoy selection.
-
ComplyLast
some bible sales people might not do it though
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
And if you use a KYC-free exchange, you decrease the attack vectors (no permanent log of TXs/withdrawals connected to full name, photo, home address, government ID).
-
ComplyLast
churning in general is not as well documented as it should be
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Maybe there could be a (single input) churn button in Monero's GUI.
-
ComplyLast
I fully agree
-
ComplyLast
like it exists on feather already
-
ComplyLast
but fees need to higher
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
I churn since 2016... it's just sending funds back to yourself or to a completely separate new wallet. But be careful if you have multiple inputs.
-
ComplyLast
fees are irresponsibly low
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Fees are fine. Miners still want to mine blocks.
-
ComplyLast
miners will always want to mine blocks
-
ComplyLast
security budget is different though
-
ComplyLast
and fees being so low incentivizes really cheap spam attacks
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Shouldn't make it too expensive. E.g. $5/tx would make small purchases difficult (e.g. VPS/gift cards/etc., and for daily purchases in the future if cash is restricted and all contactless payments require KYC).
-
ComplyLast
there's a big range between current fees and 5$ tx :P
-
nioc
AIUI the PR to increase fees is ready to be merged
-
nioc
a 4 or 5x increase which is still low
-
ComplyLast
yup
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Also don't want to make churns too expensive, since they are important for real life safety reasons, and people who need safety can't necessarily afford high fees. (Unlike for example Wasabi's minimum 0.1 BTC "mix".)
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
> there's a big range between current fees and 5$ tx :P
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Sure, I just remember Bitcoin's $10 fees...
-
Rucknium[m]
Current minimum fees are still much less than a USD cent, I believe.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
For Monero, it's around 0.2 cents which is good.
-
Rucknium[m]
See the MRL discussion from yesterday, which discusses the July-August transaction volume anomaly and its implications:
-
Rucknium[m]
-
ComplyLast
thanks Rucknium[m]
-
Inge
looking forward to the report
-
Rucknium[m]
Is it turns out, my comments here were somewhat prophetic: "It makes it more difficult, but I have some ideas about some statistical tests I could try. I suspect certain behavior will have a distinct statistical signature."
-
Rucknium[m]
* As it turns out...
-
Rucknium[m]
-
Inge
Looking forward to hearing more about *that* story too, when it becomes prudent to do so
-
Rucknium[m]
The anomalous transactions have 5 specific characteristics that "fingerprint" them.
-
Rucknium[m]
Inge: Which story?
-
freestatemag[m]
Greetings, new here... how is everyone doing this fine morning
-
freestatemag[m]
I'm actuallly curious as to where the best place to pick up some monero is? uniswap maybe
-
ComplyLast
uniswap is a very bad place to do it
-
sethsimmons
Can't get it in Uniswap.
-
ComplyLast
you can only get wXMR there
-
sethsimmons
LocalMonero, Bisq, fixedfloat.com, sideshift.ai, kraken.com are all good options
-
sethsimmons
* LocalMonero.co, Bisq,
-
freestatemag[m]
ahh, ok I have a kraken account I belive...
-
sethsimmons
s/LocalMonero, Bisq, fixedfloat.com, sideshift.ai, kraken.com are all good options/LocalMonero.co, bisq.network, fixedfloat.com, sideshift.ai, kraken.com are all good options/
-
freestatemag[m]
is
getmonero.org the best place to learn more about the wallets/protocols/ all that good stuff reguarding xmr?
-
Inge
Rucknium[m]: about your statistical analysis
-
ComplyLast
freestatemag[m], yes
-
Inge
freestatemag[m]: there is also the Mastering Monero book and the Zero To Monero book - depending upon how deep you want to dive in .
-
Rucknium[m]
Inge: Oh, well, the forthcoming blog post will explain our methodology in detail. Uh, I just counted and we have 32 graphs as of now 😬
-
ComplyLast
reddit, irc and monero stackexchange are also good sources freestatemag[m]
-
mechanic41turk[m
<anarkiocrypto[m]> "Maybe there could be a (single..." <- I think monerujo is going to introduce some churning function.
-
mechanic41turk[m
see the PocketChange section:
funding.monerujo.app
-
mechanic41turk[m
effectively is a self-spend, and can act as "churning".
-
sethsimmons
PocketChange isn't for churning, it's for creating spending denominations of outputs, but could double as a way to churn I guess.,
-
sethsimmons
It more solves the 10block lock problem for users, not churning really.
-
mechanic41turk[m
yeah, I agree.
-
mechanic41turk[m
mechanic41turk[m: .
-
m2049r[m]
Monurujo does have a churn button sortof. Spend to yourself and use the infinity icon instead of an amount to send all funds - fee.
-
Rucknium[m]
m2049r: That's re-combining outputs, though, which isn't the best idea
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
I like to have one input only... But for mobile wallets it makes sense to have multiple inputs available for quick TXs.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
s/I like to have one input only... But for mobile wallets it makes sense to have multiple inputs available for quick TXs./I like to have only one input per wallet... But for mobile wallets it makes sense to have multiple inputs available for quick TXs./
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
AFAIK monero-cli has sweep_single. Would just need to make a button for this in the GUI wallet (maybe under an "Advanced" menu) and advertise this as a churn feature.
-
m2049r[m]
Rucknium: isn't that what churning is?
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
It's safer to churn one input at a time.
-
i_fucking_give_u
if i were to send entire wallet balance to one of its sub-addresses would this have effect of "updating" block restore height?
-
Rucknium[m]
I'm not an expert of churning (yet), but I agree with anarkiocrypto . Re-combining lots of outputs will make your transactions stick out on the blockchain, at a minimum, since your transaction would have a high number of inputs, which is unusual.
-
Rucknium[m]
* expert on churning...
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
> if i were to send entire wallet balance to one of its sub-addresses would this have effect of "updating" block restore height?
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
You can send it to the main address, it will create a new transaction (churn) and you can restore from this new block height.
-
i_fucking_give_u
noted, thanks
-
bevanoff[m]
@anarkiocrypto if somebody draws up what the ideal UI would look like in the GUI that would be a good starting point if you wanna see it actually implemented
-
bevanoff[m]
Maybe it’d be best for some kind of MRL approval before actually going ahead with it though
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
> I'm not an expert of churning (yet), but I agree with anarkiocrypto . Re-combining lots of outputs will make your transactions stick out on the blockchain, at a minimum, since your transaction would have a high number of inputs, which is unusual.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Not sure about this, but there could be a danger if the churn tx uses inputs that you received from multiple people and these people collude (of course 10 decoys per input helps to protect against this).
-
Rucknium[m]
<bevanoff[m]> "Maybe it’d be best for some kind..." <- I think it may be a good MRL goal to formally analyze churning. I think some work has already been done, but things may need to be pushed further.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
1/11 is low for some opsec needs... you need higher plausible deniability for safety, therefore churns are useful. Research about safety and effectiveness of churns would be useful.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
> @anarkiocrypto if somebody draws up what the ideal UI would look like in the GUI that would be a good starting point if you wanna see it actually implemented... (full message at
libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/do…d9da80592dc395fcadad5f7755002fb31a8)
-
runfox
Hey can someone help me troubleshoot connecting monero gui wallet to my monero node on my BTCPay server over tor?
-
runfox
I have been trying to follow this user guide:https://www.getmonero.org/resources/user-guides/remote_node_gui.html
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
What error do you see?
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Enter the IP address or onion of your BTCPay server (or wherever you run monerod) and the port which is generally 18081 or 18089.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
In Settings -> Node -> Remote node
-
runfox
I have entered onion:18081 and it just remains disconnected, i also tried on clearnet with ip and it still wouldn't copnnect. Doea BTCPay use a different port than the common default of 18081?
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
To use Tor, run "torsocks ./monero-wallet-gui" or go to "Settings -> Interface -> SOCKS5 proxy" and enter IP 127.0.0.1 Port 9050. Alternatively use Whonix or Tails.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Never used BTCPay but will check what port it uses. Maybe your node isn't accepting connections outside of localhost?
-
runfox
Not sure, i am going to try what you suggest for tor and see if it lets me connect
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
If you are using Docker maybe you need this:
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
> opt-monero-expose (opens new window) to expose monero node's RPC port at 127.0.0.1:18081 to connect your own wallet. Use f.e. ssh port forwarding to forward to your own computer.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
-
runfox
Ok, great, i will take a look at the docs! Thanks, this is helpful!
-
Inge
speaking of the leaked slides and mo ero claims, here is a good place to inject some facts:
twitter.com/ChrisBlec/status/1441054982598389760
-
bevanoff[m]
What are the transaction ids for? Does that reference an output you own that you want to churn? What if you own more than one output in the tx? Wouldn’t churning them together then be bad?
-
bevanoff[m]
Excuse my ignorance, I’ve never actually used this wallet functionality before
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Txid = which input you want to churn. If you own multiple inputs in 1 tx, I guess you can additionally label each input. E.g. if inputs 1, 3 and 5 belong to you:
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
1/abcdef123456 0.0123 [Churn]
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
3/abcdef123456 3.45 [Churn]
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
5/abcdef123456 0.5 [Churn]
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
Once you churn one of these single inputs, you will get a fresh txid with 1 input.
-
anarkiocrypto[m]
s/Once you churn one of these single inputs, you will get a fresh txid with 1 input./Once you churn one of these single inputs (e.g. 0.5 XMR), you will get a fresh txid that contains 1 input (0.5 XMR - fee)./
-
bevanoff[m]
Does feather already support this? I hear they have better coin (output) control
-
sethsimmons
bevanoff[m]: Yes, you can right click on coins and send to self + break up into multiple outputs if desired
-
sethsimmons
Works great and has for ages :)
-
mechanic41turk[m
<anarkiocrypto[m]> "I like to have only one input..." <- Yeah. Waiting 20 mins before making another spend on a mobile wallet is a bit constraining.
-
mechanic41turk[m
Think about you are at hcpp conference and you are buying drinks and then a hotdog.
-
mechanic41turk[m
20 mins apart.
-
selsta
it's 20 minutes per output, not per transaction
-
selsta
if you have multiple outputs in your wallet it should be fine
-
selsta
but yes, it's not ideal
-
mechanic41turk[m
generally I have a single utxo in my monerujo wallet
-
mechanic41turk[m
which always composes my spends as 1 in 2 out
-
mechanic41turk[m
that causes me to wait 20 minutes before making another spend.
-
mechanic41turk[m
monerujo doesn't have kind of utxo selection options like Samourai Wallet has.
-
sethsimmons
Why do you both only keep one input at a time?
-
mechanic41turk[m
I don't deliberately keep 1 input.
-
bevanoff[m]
sethsimmons: If feather has it then is there actually any value in adding it to the core GUI?
-
mechanic41turk[m
The wallet itself handles the utxo selection and transaction building.
-
mechanic41turk[m
That process is totally opaque to me.
-
sethsimmons
mechanic41turk[m: Ah
-
sethsimmons
bevanoff[m]: It's debatable, and churning hasn't been natively added because it's not well researched.
-
Rucknium[m]
Is anyone aware of any data on the proportion of DeFi activity that actually feeds into investment in the real economy? My impression is that it's mostly speculation stacked on top of speculation.
-
midipoet
Rucknium[m]: my cursory understanding of DeFI just frames it as a marketing facade that convinces the market that speculation plus hyperinflation is palatable.
-
Rucknium[m]
It just feels like financial derivatives by another name.