Hey, just joined here

What docs should i read to become big brain

Also does monero use rust ?

* big brain?

How big of a brain are we talking? Are you looking to write code/research or do you want to be a power user?

or both

chesterfield[m]: I am not a dev, literally just started to code, just started to learn my first language (chose rust) by big brain i meant understand how the monero tech works

I am also curious to see if monero is written using Rust at all ?

github.com/monero-project/monero c++ , but there are rust things out there e.g github.com/monero-rs/monero-rs (for some reason the very mention of rust and monero in the same sentence is controversial)

There are 2 good Monero books: web.getmonero.org/library/Zero-to-Monero-2-0-0.pdf and Mastering Monero masteringmonero.com .

plowsof[m]: Why is it controversial lmao ?

There are also some Monero-related bounties here if you want to contribute and get paid in XMR: bounties.monero.social

random monero-rust project to look at too github.com/busyboredom/acceptxmr

plowsof[m]: Was not aware monero could build projects, like does it have smart contracts ?

smart contracts is perhaps even more controversial

chesterfield[m]: Why is the monero atomic swap btc so bad in UI/UX

plowsof[m]: Why is rust controversial with monero ? And why would smart contracts be ??

plowsof[m]: It's only controversial if you don't appreciate superior languages ;)

What are the arguments

I genuinely want to read on

SCs aren't supported by XMR. They're non-private expensive bloat which don't offer benefit to being a private currency

kayabaNerve_: Whats SCs ?

There's still projects around Monero in Rust. monero-rs is a huge lib, the first atomic swap impl was in Rust, the first widely used atomic swap impl was in Rust, and Farcaster is :p

I'm also working on code in Rust

Smart Contracts

evening kayaba , c++ devs seething

cope

:p

Different languages are beneficial for different things. If you want to learn about how Monero works, the links from chester are solid

lol, and yeah smart contacts always make the news for being exploited

Monero itself is not in Rust and will not add a Rust toolchain as a build requirement.

At least, not without an extremely large reason, which no one has provided yet.

Is C++ better for privacy or sum ?

General language appreciation and memory safety unfortunately are not considered significant enough :(

Rust didn't really exist as a viable option when Bytecoin was originally written

And Bitcoin was in C++

And Monero was a fork of Bytecoin

And sure, Rust has been viable for a while but... why would we destroy our functional codebase and fragment existing environments by adding it?

What about smart contracts ? Why is it controversial ?

I already answered that one

kayabaNerve: Where

Right before you asked me what SCs were

kayabaNerve: Ohh SC = smart contracts

Right, I also answered that :p

Sorry the whole element app kinda different to what i am used to

All messages are together, gets confusing

<kayabaNerve_> "SCs aren't supported by XMR..." <- How would they be non private if built on privacy blockchain ?

Private blockchains aren't magically private

They're private as they implement cryptography to achieve privacy

Monero uses RingCTs to create transactions with confidential amounts and ring signatures to obscure the sender

If we add in a VM which operates off data, like the EVM... it won't magically be private. It'll expect public data and work with it

Is that ringCT tech all explained in the docs yall sent me previously ?

"So modify it to use private data!" Cool. Let me know when you have a full VM spec which successfully executes fully private data

Then we can discuss performance, ease of integration, usage likelihood, caveats...

bullskey[m]: Yes

Also, where are you from lol

I am Canadian from Iraq

What about you mate ?

y'all is the most southern slang possible yet I don't think you're a native English speaker :P

Or young

kayabanerve[m]: Is this ever likely to happen ?

kayabanerve[m]: Yeah just young hahahah

I spent my teenage years in Texas :) Regardless, not relevant right now.

bullskey[m]: There have been a few attempts, yet none I'd call successful nor worthy of discussion regarding Monero.

The current one making the rounds is Darkfi.

There is a mathematical proof it's impossible to execute arbitrary private code for arbitrary data IIRC though lol

I heard of other anonmyous cryptos L1 making smart contracts, are they not good ?

Did not dig into them yet

kayabanerve[m]: What is IIRC ?!

> <@kayabanerve:matrix.org> There is a mathematical proof it's impossible to execute arbitrary private code for arbitrary data IIRC though lol

* What is IIRC ??

If I recall correctly.

One which claims private smart contracts is Dero, yet they don't have private smart contracts. It's all public data.

They do offer private token balances though, yet I believe any operations on said balances publicly doxx them.

So Darkfi is letting users write ZK circuits for SCs IIRC, and they're a project that exists. I don't care to comment further on them at this time. I'm not experienced with them and this isn't the place for that

Okay thanks

By the way how does monero project update the code ?

Like is there a centralized team ?

Or is there some sort of DAO ?

no DAO, there is a general fund people donate to, and community crowdfunding system (ccs) ccs.getmonero.org

bullskey[m]: There's a GitHub repo acknowledged as Monero by the community which has a variety of community members contributing

There is a group of people who are the admins, yet they're not a centralized team. They're individuals.

I've submitted a review on PRs even though I'm not a PR. People just pitch in

kayabanerve[m]: Well it is a centralized group, like if somehow they all disappear, would the project still be able to progress ?

It's not a centralized group. It's a group with a central definition. There's a distinction.

If every human on Earth disappeared, the project wouldn't be able to progress.

If you kill off every person willing to contribute, it wouldn't progress either.

So sure, removing this group would halt contributions to that repository. That doesn't make it a centralized group. It makes it a decentralized group centrally defined on GitHub.

Someone would fork Monero and it'd continue. Sure, it'd fracture, but one group would be the largest.

And that largest group would be Monero.

This answers my question thanks

I'm not an admin on GH yet I'm known around the community. I could have a fork :p So could you.

But I assume the community would prefer my fork to yours and prefer a few others to mine

kayabanerve[m]: As I do

And run code that isn't merged

Is there any planning in the world to build a Github type of plateform but more decentralized ?

Regarding funding, there's the general fund, MAGIC, CCS, and recently we had a few organizational sponsorships

Git is decentralized.

kayabanerve[m]: I run a fork of selstas fork :P

kayabanerve[m]: But it needs admins

ofrnxmr: Do I dare ask why? :p

I actually wouldn't mind a fork which was more aggressive on merging code clean ups tbh

bullskey: Nope. You can spawn your own server and move Monero there now

Hf

bullskey[m]: Code if freely available to mirror wherever you want

Wownero mirrors moneros GitHub on their own git server

You are correct that branches need some level of access control, sure.

But even if everyone only had a personal branch, I'd coordinate with ofrnxmr and we'd combine our work occasionally

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ The community can decide who they trust more to use as their build source and the project would continue

If you want to decentralize access control... you can't really

What makes anyone more worthy of access control than someone else?

kayabanerve[m]: Yeah that, well what if monero had a program where people can propose code and then we can vote on whether or not monero should adopt it

How would you determine voting?

The community implicitly votes by updating their nodes as releases are issued. We don't need an explicit process

kayabanerve[m]: With token holders is a starters

kayabanerve[m]: Ohhhh

It's unneeded bureaucracy which would massively slow things down

bullskey[m]: Balances are private?

Saying I have more money than you so I deserve more control is bullshit?

kayabanerve[m]: Are they private to the network too?

bullskey[m]: That is what private means

Yes

kayabanerve[m]: Thats not the idea -> its i am more invested so i should have more to say since i have more risk

Do you own any monero

ofrnxmr[m]: Yes

bullskey[m]: ... no, I got that's the idea

It's still bullshit lol

Sounds like you own monero on binance

ofrnxmr[m]: Nice story bro

Vote?

Proof of stake? Governance? Oxen

Free merging? Wownero

Considering you didn't know how Monero is private... yeah, sounds like you only have XMR on an exchange lol

masternodes??

So exchanges would be massively over represented as effective delegates

And they could vote to halt the network under your model when no one would want that

But the community wouldn't upgrade

And monero would continue

But guess what?

That's the current system

So why would we turn it into some corporate bureaucracy nightmare in the meantime

so i can make 500% apr of course

plowsof[m]: i will support the corporate bureaucracy if its first act is to give me 51% shares.

kayabanerve[m]: I dont get the idea of attempting to making fun of someone for having different views. Or just questioning around. It’s unnecessary drama.

Then I will give myself and plowsof 500% apr

plowsof[m]: Just stake like ETH, forever

kayabanerve[m]: Well the whole point of more tokens = more vote is also to counter bots

Thank you. i would wrap them , stake them and lock them in a smart fund to gain extra ++%

Jokes aside, that'd immediately make Monero extremely questionable legally. The SEC really does say mess around and find out

bullskey[m]: I wasn't making fun of you. I was saying you're new to this.

I don't mind that you appreciate Monero and want to learn more. I'm saying you don't have experience with Monero.

bullskey[m]: No. The whole point of money is to run an economy

And I will say I mind you suggesting radical changes completely contrary to our ethos when you don't actually know Monero

It's like if I walked into BTC and just submitted a PR to move Satoshi's coins to my public key

... why

... why would anyone support me on that

why would i ever think that's appropriate to do

kayabanerve[m]: Thats not what i am trying to do, sorry if it came off that way -> thats just my way of questioning around to understand

Like how you guys work and think

I'd recommend reading the provided documents, or even just some links from getmonero ;) It'll help fill you in on why Monero exists

I am not suggesting anything

Instead of proposing changes, I'd ask why Monero has its current behavior

Like asking why Rust/SCs are a pain. That's good :)

"Why doesn't Monero have token voting" <- Much better phrasing

One is proposing it to some degree. One is learning the community. Should work better :)

And then yes, we're happy to answer questions

English is my third language, of course its not your fault. Just something i have to work on 🙂

Or, "how does monero work without token voting"

bullskey[m]: Sure. We'll try to keep that in mind. Thanks for your clarifications :)

ofrnxmr: Considering it does sound to be a slight language barrier, probably best to move on for now :)

Alright thanks for all the help, will go to sleep. Getting late here. Will defo read up tomorrow on the docs you guys shared 💪🏽👋🏽

Definitely. Let us know if you have questions. Balances aren't public to the network or anyone without your private view key though ;)

i did say that SC's where controversial 😳

plowsof[m]: Not if we're the ones getting that yield though ;p

SCs on Monero would be a horrible idea

I just like joking around a bit late at night outside of -dev and -research :p

Its just money 🤷

The thing is, there are many takes on monero already

Oxen, mobilecoin, both proof of stake

Wownero has much less (no?) scrutiny when it comes to merges

Monero is one of the most professional groups of randoms, because we all take this money thing seriously.

Does Bitcoin have community meetings?

they have board meetings where all the rich / big miners meet and decide whats happening

I was about to say 😅😅

i think most of them are not devs

I mean, meeting where regular folk can affect change ?

bitcoinminingcouncil .com ?

microstrategy... etc

People in bitcoin are all just along for the ride.

If an improvement can be made etc, in monero, most times it will be.

In other coins (or governance) you have to have money or pay to vote. Which means, even if your idea is genius.. you can be blocked by rich "miners" *cough* corporations

Bitmain/antpool

Imagine minexmr being able to vote on "monero improvement proposals"

* Imagine minexmr "miners" being able

increase tx fees and smaller / fixed block sizes merged

with monero i can join monero-dev and ask moo why my balance is 0 , there is a beauty in that

And moo will answer, even if you meeeeeoooww for 3 days

:((((((((((((((((

I got Giacomo to agree to do a chat with Seth and Doug

I think guys like tone are pretty slow. Giacomo seems to be a smart guy. Either he comes out of the convo "enlightened".. or in denial

basic question: should a wallet sync the entire blockchain even when a restore height is set?

i expected the wallet to just start at that block height but its going back 2.6 million blocks

same happened to me. It seems that the blocks before the restore height were scanned very quickly.

<nioc> "same happened to me. It seems..." <- yeah, and grinds to a halt when it hits the restore height

r4v3r23[m]: no that should not happen, what wallet exaclty are you using?

I was using CLI

dsc_: shruum (monerujo fork)

the terminology is 'refreshing' btw

<plowsof[m]> "no DAO, there is a general..." <- hm...I think the CCS and the bounties are a DAO. People are not in one spot. -> so its decentralized. You cant really tell anyone what to do. -> so it is autonomous. And people organize there together . -> so its an an organization. Combine these three things and you can see its a DAO. It looks like a DAO, it walks like a DAO and it quacks like a DAO. So it is a DAO.

syncing is the downloading of blocks, while refreshing scans transactions

either way, shruum should not do that, and it sounds like a reproducible issue, so you might want to create an issue on their tracker

nioc: as for CLI, I blame cat

dsc_: monerujo/shruum uses "sync" instead of refreshing

*Cat

spirobel[m]: supermarket + it's customers is DAO too according to your definitions; facepalm

spirobel[m]: we did DAOs before it was cool. I would even say Silkroad was a DAO. proabably the first one. the darknet markets were a prototype for DAOs and the web3.

ooo123ooo1234567: no. they are all in one spot and they are not autonomous. ( its a company regulated by law) better analogy would be an informal street sellers market. But that is not decentralized because the people are all in one spot. Facepalm 😆

spirobel[m]: online supermarket not registered legally + it's customers; facepalm

ooo123ooo1234567: you seem like one of these goofy "DAO word bad" NPCs. what you say makes zero sense. Online supermarkets are of course registered legally. facepalm 🤪

probably you are just a rotten alt.

post link to github or other socials

spirobel[m]: No, it's just you who don't understand what you're talking about

spirobel[m]: no, oo123 actually knows his shit

seemingly rotten lives rent free in your head, doesn't he? spirobel[m]

also happens to be a class A troll

takes one to know one, mr. r4v3r23.

dukenukem: thank you sir

you are welcome, clown.

dukenukem: aww youre butthurt. not sure what i did to you but im sure you deserved it

ah, not only are you a wannabe troll, you also judge what people deserve and don't. marvelous.

dukenukem: all of the above, plus more

cool story, croatan larper.

<ooo123ooo1234567> "online supermarket not registere..." <- your examples are just incredibly stupid. For a dao to be a dao all 3 conditions must be met.

dukenukem: LMAO

spirobel[m]: whats so hard to understand about that?

looks like ive got a stalker and fan

r4v3r23[m]: happy pride month to you two

<spirobel[m]> "your examples are just incredibl..." <- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_autonomous_organization, "... in other words they are member-owned communities without centralized leadership" is it applicable to current environment ?

don't remember whether it was this channel or the monero one that brought up new york state banning pow mining. The bill not passed yet and it would "only" temporarily halt new crypto-mining projects at fossil-fuel burning plants

<ooo123ooo1234567> "en.wikipedia.org/wiki..." <- yes. I would say so. Who owns the monero community and the code? "rules encoded as a computer program that is often transparent, controlled by the organization's members and not influenced by a central government," <--- that is exactly what Monero is. So by this definition we are a DAO. And that is cool 😎

spirobel[m]: I would say no. There are no rules and there is no explicit membership

ooo123ooo1234567: But that is because you have this narrow defintion in your mind that means DAO="smart contract written in solidity + a bunch of degens" The definition that we just read is broader.

ooo123ooo1234567: There are rules to CCS proposals and overall participating in the matrix chats, which is the current environment we are in.

1.Monero is a computer program. 2. its source code is transparent. 3.It is controlled by us. There is no law that states that membership of a group must be explicit. (it opens up the danger of community attacks when the boundaries of the group are too fluid, but at the same time it allows rapid, non permissioned innovation. So it is a tradeoff how rigid you want to be about who is a member of the group or not.)

<ooo123ooo1234567> "I would say no. There are no..." <- The Monero dao is an invisible make believe box living in peoples heads

Rent free of course

Unironically monero dao pays my rent

chesterfield[m]: so it is undeniably a thing. We all experience it. 😀

Monero may function today mostly through a dao but I wouldn’t confuse it with a dao being essential to Monero

<spirobel[m]> "so it is undeniably a thing..." <- This sounds a lot like an [ontological argument](en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument) but we exist for sure :D

<Siren[m]> "Unironically monero dao pays..." <- What are you doing for monero according to your subjective opinion ? Any example of the most complex / useful thing ?

I would consider the eternal September scenario and or a situation where a group of nation state funded developers who want nothing to do with the current codebase or community begin writing thousands of lines of code per day

<ooo123ooo1234567> "What are you doing for monero..." <- I'm working on several projects. First one is a payment processor however not many people use it. Second project is a website in which you can buy giftcards (of gas stations, drugstores, every single mall and the biggest supermarket chain in where I live) for XMR. I'm working to automate purchasing and sales of these cards. I don't think I'm allowed to talk about the third

project yet but it's going to launch in a few weeks. As a small clue I can say that it has to do with telecommunication. Both of these projects rely on my payment processor. And what do you that is useful for the community?

p2pool mini observer is broken

<chesterfield[m]> "Monero may function today mostly..." <- I think it is essential. The eternal September will happen once people realize that it requires a fundamental change in how society operates. People shouldn't organize in companies and nation sates anymore. A different structure is necessary.

unrelated: matrix users can stop the 'is typing' packet by blocking the request url in their browsers network devtools e.g. block matrix-client.matrix.org/_matrix/cl….org/typing/%40plowsof%3Amatrix.org

<Siren[m]> "I'm working on several projects...." <- I also push other companies/organizations that I offer system administration to accept XMR and offer Tor services/mirrors. Been successful a few times.

* I also push other companies/organizations that I offer system administration to, to accept XMR and offer Tor services/mirrors. Been successful a few times.