<m​onerobull:matrix.org> my dad always says crypto isnt real money

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> but then he rants about CBDCs

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i tell him thats why monero

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> he says hes got cash

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i tell him theyll just stop printing new cash and its gone in a few decades

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> he says "the people wont take that and elect other politicians"

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> i tell him the ECB people arent elected

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> he still says crypto isnt real money and could go to zero instantly which is partially true but also said that he supports that people are fighting back against cbdcs with stuff like monero

<h​bs:matrix.org> I've given up on trying to convince normies that there is an interest, I now only educate people who made the first step, the others can continue to cover their eyes, I'll be there when they want to learn more

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Yes, I do not blame them for being skepticaL

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> Yes, I do not blame them for being skeptical

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> I was very skeptical of crypto myself because I only had the "dogecoin enthusiast" understanding of how blockchain and stuff worked

<r​ecanman:agoradesk.com> After actually looking into it and taking the first step, that is when I understood a little more

decentralised trust is difficult to understand, as previously trust has always been embedded with government, the rule of law, and the political system for so long. It is also too abstract for most people to realise that the rise in prices is directly correlated to the reduction of purchasing power of a unit of their fiat currency (tending towards zero).

<g​orillaquest:matrix.org> this helped some people understand better

<g​orillaquest:matrix.org> lifemathmoney.com/the-history-and-evolution-of-money

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> finnish monero supporters with spot market power prices

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/18…sumers_asked_to_go_easy_on_the_grid

<m​onerobull:matrix.org> go hard

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So this up coming community meeting we sign off on plowsof being chief bag holder for active ccs?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its a secret

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lets just say

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> This weekend, were raising $ and paying devs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its thanksgivingb

Im glad we implemented the short term solution before the holidays started and everything is back to normal /s

There are no holidays where i am

Productivity must be through the roof there

<midipoet> There are no holidays where i am <<>> confirmed buddhist

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> "A 10 minute passion presentation. This can be on anything related to security and technology and should reflect your personal interests. " Do you think that doing a presentation on Monero for 10 minutes would be bad? This is for an entry level cyber security internship

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> (I am a university student)

<o​cean:matrix.thisisjoes.site> why would it be bad? fits the criteria

Ask your tutor

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> Dk.. lol

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> Do not really have one and if they do - they do not know what xmr is so..

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 10 mins is good i think

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> <n​ioc> There are no holidays where i am <<>> confirmed buddhist

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Buddhists have more holidays than any other religion I can think of 😆

t​rasherdk really?

maybe hindu?

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Yup. And as a specialty in Thailand, if a holiday falls on a Saturday or Sunday - Mondays is a substitute holiday/day off 😂

They may travel for a few weeks e.g. attending MoneroKon (which is more of a pilgrimage than a vacation)

Monero was started by thankfulfortoday so everyday is a holiday in moneroland

<1​0934dfasl:matrix.org> to give like a somewhat in depth summary / overview of how xmr works and why its important etc.

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Tons of Lightning users rugged with Wallet of Satoshi pulling out of the US appstore

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Now XMR and perhaps KAS the only game left in town for properly decentralized micro payments.

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Lightning in the US just became a tad more complicated after todays news.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Uh

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Using a custodial wallet

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Called "wallet of satoshi"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> You deserved to be wrapped in a rug and tossed off of a bridge

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> claim to love satoshi, but disrespect him by naming bullshit after him, and then USING it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ln isnt bitcoin

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Satoshi had nothing to do with kn or custodial sokutions

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ln*

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> To act like WOS was "decentralized micropayment" is... like.. saying.. you wont get burned if you jump in the fire naked

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Losing wos is a big WIN for decentralized payments

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Trash ass ln, wrong room anyway

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Anyway, how is that a rug, removing an app from app store? It's not like it get's deleted from users phones, or what? I never owned a apple product.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Right?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> if i was WOS, id actually rug em

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Show em what they signed up for

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> its such massive disrespect to name a product after someone who cant speak

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> But Craig...

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And then to absolutely do everything you can do make sure the wallet does not align with craigs ideals

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Does he have ideals?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Good question. But too hard to answer

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> But if it's not custodial, you have to pay hefty fee to create, destroy or re-balance your channels.

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Yes, and?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Im missing the decentralized micropayments

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> think about the Central Africa Republic on where BTC is legal and average monthly salary is 10$ a month

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its either centralized micro

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> or ita deventralized and unusable

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wos is just paypal

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But.. worse

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> FFS, get an autocorrect for that phone already 😂

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ill just use google keyboard

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Jk

ofrn is just deventralizing

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> All thumbs.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I like that word

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Im often mobile

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So, 1 thumb

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> there's an app called say board it doesn't do punctuation but let's see if it's any better

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> If it can auto-correct `deventralizing` then I'm in.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it's either centralized micropayments, or it's decentralized and unusable

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Not bad ^ (test)

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> It's readable, so definitely a step in the right direction.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > "A 10 minute passion presentation. This can be on anything related to security and technology and should reflect your personal interests. " Do you think that doing a presentation on Monero for 10 minutes would be bad? This is for an entry level cyber security internship

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> @plowsof send dm on matrix regarding ^

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> You CANT do micropayments on L1 BTC. It would be considered DUST

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> wrong room

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> You CANT also take micropayments amounts via credit card

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Talking about how btc is broken

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Monero makes sense

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> for that use case

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thx tips

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yeah

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And wos isnt decentralized

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> So are what r u talking about "a loss"

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Yeah thats what I said

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "Now XMR and perhaps KAS the only game left in town for properly decentralized micro payments."

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> implies that previously, wos was a part of the gang (it wasnt)

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Theres no dencetralized options for easy micropayments but XMR as KAS ( perhaps, still unproven )

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Ah true

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wos was never a decentralized anything, nevermind a properly decentralized one

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wownero

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Im surr ive used wow more than kas

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> Wownero is like a fun altcoin for monero but I don't see it as a proper payments option.

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> A good testnet for monero

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> It's like the monero version of doge, nothing more

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wownero is technically damn near identical to monero

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> doge > ltc

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wownero:xmr isnt really like doge:ltc

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Wow for a while has more usage than zcash

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Had*

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And unlike arrr and doge, you can actually mine wow

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not just a meme. Its a functional one

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> With the major issue being network security vs monero (wen mergemining?)

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> mermemememining

<l​ouis.signet:monero.social> mergemememining

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Don't WOW have some antipoll shenanigans?

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> I don't think merge mining is possible until they reverse that.

<g​fdshygti53:monero.social> Else I guess only people using the only poll they should use (p2pool + local nodes) will be able to mine it

<4​rkal:monero.social> has this been discussed yet? monero.observer/cypherpunk-transmis…king-monero-ccs-cypherpunk-proposal

<4​rkal:monero.social> Quite intresting

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> matrix.monero.social/_matrix/media/…ero.social/iHmgoihyRpRWAqgUJnwAFBFR

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> And now it's back 🤔

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> I think we been through that suggestion before. I still think it seriously flawed.

<s​njay:mozilla.org> Smells like a social experiment to benchmark energy usage of user clusters.

<s​njay:mozilla.org> inb4 meds

Ive not finished the observer post but it seems like its the 'direct funding' option

Using a modified back end (primary address/private viewkey is added to thr front matter of the merge propsal)

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Well, yes, the direct funding option, but with an important twist. Devs are not lone warriors that have to hunt for funds themselves, but the CCS as a "social institution" continues to exist.

Everyone who wants direct funding take one look at the work in progress list

The abandoned ones specifically.

How on earth do you want to repurpose those funds as we have done for a few already. Asl for a refund???

Not to mention the difficulty some proposers will have with accounting

The real devs are covered by the general fund for now / the future sonwe need to promote general fund donations more than ever

Direct funding is laughable and an extra hurdle to jump over before your proposal gets merged. I have personally seen the most trustworthy people get ccs' merged and do almost absolutely nothing

You should never pay 100% up front for anything in the real world until its done, otherwise you're dumb

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Dear plowsof is unusually direct today :) But yeah, the whole thing also strikes me as a system that only works if it's all sunny days but starts to fail with the first drop of rain

Why.are we even entertaining direct funding

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Not even cypherpunks are always nice to each other ...

You Do not need permission for direct funding. The ccs is about checks and balances

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "Why.are we even entertaining direct funding" Because it could be the least bad option. Otherwise, escrow agents need to be found, they need to be inconvenienced, and donors and workers need to trust them again.

There is no CCS if direct funding is used

<r​ucknium:monero.social> CCS is a vetting process

Uhm mr proposer can we have an update ? Its been 1 year can we have an update?? Gee i guess we'll have to uhm... Fundraise again for the dame thing

why do I need to go thru the CCS if I am directly funding?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Visibility, for one.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> An some mild form of endorsement

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Will credible escrow appear?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> You don't need to, but you might profit from going through the CCS

maybe I need to decentralize my wallets so that I don't lose my monero since I am currently self custody

The vetting process that puts trustworthy (so they seem) to funding and then they go to the 'forever a work in progress pile'

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The escrow agent's behavior is shaped by moral hazard

Time and time again

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I am not sure about the escrow. I think multisig would not only be an improvement safety-wise, but also regarding personal risks, and moral hazards

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Personal risks: People with the 5 dollar wrench won't visit me much less if they know it's a multisig process

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Moral hazards: I can't spend alone, obviously

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I think moral hazard should be renamed since its literal meaning doesn't match its technical meaning.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> We are speaking about temptations to steal funds, right?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> By the custodians themselves I mean

<r​ucknium:monero.social> The moral hazard is: the loss of Y XMR from the CCS does not cause a Y loss of funds from the escrow agent's personal funds. Therefore, the escrow agent will be more lax with CCS funds than personal funds.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Which is what happened

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "In economics, a moral hazard is a situation where an economic actor has an incentive to increase its exposure to risk because it does not bear the full costs of that risk." - wikipedia

<r​ucknium:monero.social> I should take back "Which is what happened" since we don't have all the information about how exactly the funds were lost. Sorry.

The real devs/seraphis and such have funding secured via general fund if this isnt solved.. We're talking about a CCS vetting system before and AFTER funding for all kinds of projects. First time contributors that would never get merged of DF would be used

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I see. One more problem, yeah. But also better with multisig because it has a level of safety that is somewhat hard to undermine. If I am pretty careless with my keys the system as a whole is not yet broken

Gatekeeping++ .. there is liability for the voters actually.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> rbrunner7: Yes, but what if all multisig key holders think that? Then that's tragedy of the commons :P

<r​brunner7:monero.social> You spoil all the fun :)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> "The other key holders will be more careful." Not if everyone thinks the same thing

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Right. But on the other hand we should not go overboard and pretend that our funds are lost and stolen all the time, again and again. It worked for years, after all. To somehow doubt that we can't get that right is somehow .... pessimistic.

<a​js_:matrix.org> p​lowsof: with direct funding it is hard to get "prime time" attention. CCS has the advantage of being prominently linked on the "official" getmonero.org and has a top level link in monero subreddit

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Here's another idea: non-escrow fundraising after each milestone. If the milestone is not fully funded, the worker has a choice: accept partial/no payment. Or the General Fund covers what donors do not as a backstop, but the worker cannot use the CCS system again.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> It does start to threaten the core and fundamental assumptions of cryptocurrency, that people *can* manage their own funds, be "their own bank" as the saying goes.

<a​js_:matrix.org> for direct funding going through the CCS system could help with vetting

<r​brunner7:monero.social> "cannot use the CCS again", with anonymous devs?

<a​js_:matrix.org> and have the tacit approval of the monero community

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Seems like a play to get the exposure of the CCS system, without the accountability.

^^

If we put forward a project/person for direct funding... If things dont go to plan, the donors, will think.. who recommended i donate to that? Hmm under the old system the funds could have been repurposed. Oh well nvm

I guess ill donate to the next one

just don't let the funds pile up

We have a pile of 9000 in the corner

we were starting to deal with that issue

it piled up over a long time

<a​js_:matrix.org> accountability would be based on reputation of the dev/project. if it is low, the community could demand strict milestones with low amounts for each step and require frequent updates

Look over at that corner woth 9000 monero in it. Notice how it os being sent to luigi to pay devs for the upcoming weeks/months... Also note it being used to pay the bills every several months

<a​js_:matrix.org> if the fail to deliver, remove the proposal

<a​js_:matrix.org> if they fail to deliver, remove the proposal

Then ignore it and start splitting hairs for the CCS

Oops remove, sorry everyone.. <- those funds are literally stolen now, as we cant repurpose them

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Not sure what you want to say, plowsof. We should not talk about the CCS before we have a more solid solution for the general fund?

Work in progress list alone would have ended the ccs a long time ago of those where direct funded

if only we had plowsof sooner

2600 ish xmr would have flew out the door via direct.. and we'd be merging things for funding still?

Haveno 2.0 but this tiime its real

Community vetted

A monero payment processor version 35 but this time .. its happening

<r​ucknium:monero.social> All those incomplete proposals happened under the previous system. And you want to go back to that system? Mostly a serious question.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Escrow doesn't prevent those outcomes

Repurposing funds works

<r​ucknium:monero.social> If you can get credible escow, then maybe going back to the previous system is the best option. There are no details of what the new escrow system would look like.

<t​rasherdk:monero.social> Direct funding guarantee those outcomes 😂

Rucknium: of course those funds remained available for the community to decode what to do with

Decide*

Without credible escrow , there is no CCS

<a​js_:matrix.org> why can't the CSS evolve to be something other than a traditional escrow service

<r​ucknium:monero.social> plowsof says his motivation will crash if direct funding happens. Yet he fulfilled his Wishlist as a Service proposal after BCH direct funding :P

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Get credible escrow.

I am a product of direct funding and facilitate people to do it . This _is_ the cyberpunk way

The CCS is a vetting system which also has after care / chances of allowing others to take over an abandonned proposal

<a​js_:matrix.org> the CSS can continue as a vetting system to keep projects/dev in check

<a​js_:matrix.org> negotiate milesones and funding levels

<a​js_:matrix.org> demand deliverables, status reports in community meetings

People who can obtain direct funding (e.g. rucknium .. has a proven track record as being an actual researcher and stull doesnt get his infra insta funded at rucknium.me/donate simply due to visibility - this would be an example of where DF for semi retroactive/not things is perfect)

Few and far between ^

<a​js_:matrix.org> it could be a list of curated direct funding projects

<r​ucknium:monero.social> AFAIK, no one wants to be the CCS escrow agent(s). Even after 3 weeks of this discussion. If you can get them, fantastic.

Thats great but its not the ccs. Escrow is.. an escrow.. allows.for repercussions and the chance for the vetters to "make it right" of we got it wrong

<a​js_:matrix.org> setting strict milestones and reporting requirements would help minimize some of the risk of direct funding

<a​js_:matrix.org> the repercussion would be expulsion and a hit on reputation

How old is plowsofs alt?

Is that really a threat lol

Unless we want KYC

<a​js_:matrix.org> if a dev in using CCS direct funding option, it would be in their interest to play ball

They can just begin farming an alt , yesterday

Sociopaths are built different

<a​js_:matrix.org> a 1 day alt would have higher scrutiny in the ideas stage than someone line moneromoo

<a​js_:matrix.org> a 1 day alt would have higher scrutiny in the ideas stage than someone like moneromoo

<a​js_:matrix.org> having a proven track record of contributing to monero would be important

I want a page , vetted.to the best of our ability sharing projects people , of course, its just not the "ccs" , we can of course link it prominently with a disclaimer

An alt that is a few months old.. with some contributions can get onto the CCS no problem

Its really not a threat to have an alt burned (so.. the ccs is only for funding the elites.. thus reinforcing the "monkey scratching back" / "gatekeeping" crowd) even more so if we go to DF cus the risks of losing the ccs' trustworthiness is even higher

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Let me turn this around: Why are we even discussing an escrow system when there are no escrow agent candidates?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> (This is mostly for the sake of stimulating discussion.)

<r​ucknium:monero.social> It appears that pro-escow people are waiting for Core to save things again when Core says they want to have less and less responsibility.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> save = rescue

Luigi is the only.candidate (the luigi believers need a name)

Core also say expect no magic solution

if escrow people are to remain anonymous for safety reasons why would they raise their hands in this channel?

<r​ucknium:monero.social> nioc: Donor confidence in the same theft not happening again.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I can say, carefully and very preliminary, that I would not completely rule out to help escrow CCS funds, if we are a solid group of people and multisig gets used.

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Anyway, this is why these things are a hard problem: all parties must be satisfied. The _participation constraints_ in a game.

well there is the rub, multisig :)

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Well, for me the residual dangers and risks of "experimental" multisig look quite a bit smaller than Monero going down because the CCS falls. IMHO of course.

is it really not functional enough for our needs at the moment?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Maybe Feather Wallet to the rescue. If they build something solid, that could fly.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol

<r​brunner7:monero.social> From the point of view of handling. Does nothing for the "experimental" aspect of course.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> how do ppl mention elephants without talking about them

so there isn't a problem \o/

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Generalfund solves what now?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Generalfund is the _same_ problem that ccs was

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not a solutions

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Yeah, of course.

Just ignore the 9000 xmr wallet going about its business (with funds being sent to the not credible(?) Escrow person every other week

temporary to keep things running right now

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And to point to ruckniums point, core team doesnt care

Meanwhile.. lets fix the ccs woth direct funding

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Luigi gets robbed, and its "whatever"

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Yeah, you could remove GF as a backstop from my idea. It would make it a little less acceptable for workers of course.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> GF is the most centralized wallet we have

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There is 0 requirement for GF to cover anything..

The ccs is continuing whether you thiink the.escrow.is.credible or not

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Every other wallet starts off as earmarked funds

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Donating to generalfund is donating to a blackhole. You may never see your money be spent

More than 2600 xmr shall pass through thebhands of this not credible escrow (lol) person in the next few months

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lol

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They almost gave away 2500xmr while we got robbed

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And we had no say in the matter

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Almost bought monero.com too. Image how poor we'd be if we did either of those dumbass ideas

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> s/gave away/"refunded a donation" (whatever tf that means)

But Lets talk about credibility of an escrow for the none elite devs

Aaanywaynso who will it be

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its been decided

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It shall be voldemort

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Ah, truly helpful

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> He who must not be named

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> S*th (jk)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (maybe)

Voldermort who im sire has learned a lesson or 2, and is.handling over 2600xmr every several months for the next [eternity] (if the general.fund receives donations)

did I told you how much we love monero

we have a waterfall in the office with monero logos all around

But nono hold up.. we need to slow the none elites from getting onto the ccs

and we all gather daily sit there and appreciate monero

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I think somebody into esoterics would claim "pretty bad vibes in here" :)

for an hour

no talk just monero appreciation

We need a monero waterfall in townforge

and I also insist from my friends they donate at least 0.1 xmr daily to monero project

because we are all generous people that love monero

<3 <3 <3

Rucknium its a house of mirrors - any proposal / idea can be discussed and each will have positives/negatives , i think we are at a standstill until there is a "magic solution"

majesticbank.sc best place to swap with best monero vibe

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> There is a magic solution

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But id have to be rude to continue me statement

Just ignorenthe 2600+ xmr flow and happy devs skipping up and down the corridor

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> happy devs waiting for months

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Plowsof wasting devs time for 60/90 days without being told to stop wasting his time

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats not Voldemort, thats luigi

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And it took 60 days for gf to feed the devs. All rather inexcusable

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "2600xmr" is a false #

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 2600xmr is what was stolen.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it was stolen from the ccs wallet.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Something like 2000 of that xmr was abandoned.

So devs/seraphis/researchers will be funded no problem, maybe a delay here and there ^ so the focus is, how do we keep none devs from using the ccs for as long as possible

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> By going around in circles

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Asking the crowd for solutions that you know dont work

The protected group (PG) are using the none credible escrow agent +general fund wallet , whereas the none protected group (NPG) are forbidden

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If i wanted to filibuster this, id go to the drawing board and come back with some nonsensical shit and make the convo devolve even further

NPG's will be moved to funding after the tom cruise movie is finished

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Were _not_ talking about 2600xmr.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> were talking about a wallet that will likely remain cold for at least 30 days

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And who's balance should be kept in check

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Since its NOT being managed by every 2 months luigi

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> without plowsof, the wallet would have grown indefinitely

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And never been looked at

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> NOBODY questions binaryfate, just like nobody questions luigi

<r​ucknium:monero.social> FWIW, there are a lot more ways now for NPGs to build their Monero work portfolio than when the CCS started. Kuno, Bounties (I know, same Core escrow issue), MAGIC, Wishlist as a Service.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Or simple by doing work

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> People who show up out of nowhere and ask for 130xmr/3months are crazy.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> show us youre capable.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> but worst case, they arent supposed to get paid

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (luigi pays scam devs tho)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Even when they write bullshit invoices

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If you come to work, do nothing but shitpost, you cant go say "i spend 13hrs in meetibgs and 4hrs setting up my build environment, dis Github > GitHub spelling fixes for 2 hrs" then list a bunch of prs you "reviewed", and the reviews are useless

<r​brunner7:monero.social> After you got all this off your chest, will you slowly move into "proposal" territory?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Me?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> Yes, you

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Are you asking if ill open a ccs?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> No, what you would propose to make things better.

The beatings will continue until we accept the old system (woth improvements)

plowsof: you are making too many typos, people might start saying things

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I was going to say "plowsof is using the ofrnxmr parser"

I just need to stop pressing O instead of I then people won't notice

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> you also sais "asl for a refund???"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Rbrunner, my proposals involve work

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And the work relies on people willing to fill the roles

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Some roles are filled, others not so much

How many mornings must i contemplate the ideas for fixing the ccs with mental images of highlighted quotes from cote on monerologs making them all invalid

s/cote/core

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> example "do we have devs working on improving multisig ux?" Yes

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> there are more than a few viable solutions that dont involve reinventing the wheel before we start the car

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And for everyone who thinks things need to be reinvented >>> go talk to bf and generalfund

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats the money that needs to be secured

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Theres no money anywhere else lol.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> theres 2 generalfunds

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> BF, iirc, documented that they took proper measures when moving funds from gf1 to gf2, and we would assume gf2 is secure.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> my point is, community wants to reinvent fundraising but forgets that generalfund is supposed to be our main source of funding?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Random people go to getmonero and donate to "the project". Gf does donate to devs, and we can ask nicely for gf to into things

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But unlike ccs, its really cores wallet. Hence monero.com and to-be refunded conversations that didnt happen in public

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They treated ccs like it was generalfund - those funds dont belong to core

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They belong to active proposals and community.

The circular economy and supporting each other is very important

That's why we have monero appreciation fountain

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I am still a bit lost. Say I want to develop something for Monero and receive XMR. Where do I go for that, and what shall I do? According to ofrnxmr

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > FWIW, there are a lot more ways now for NPGs to build their Monero work portfolio than when the CCS started. Kuno, Bounties (I know, same Core escrow issue), MAGIC, Wishlist as a Service.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs or ^

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Example, 4rkal wanted to host a gitea clone of monero.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> he tried ccs and ended up being funded through kuno

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ive myself used WAAS

<r​brunner7:monero.social> CCS is down, or bad, or rotten, or whatever. We may build something better, along the lines of the ideas of yours. Or won't we? CCS be gone?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs isnt dead

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Luigi is

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> The wallet is

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Kuno and WAAS are "paid before you work" or WYSIWYG direct funding

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Bounties is like ccs, in that you dont get paid until completion

<r​brunner7:monero.social> CCS isn't dead? What's the new model of flow of XMR from donators to devs?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> if ccs is dead, why is bounties still alive

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ccs being dead is because were allowing ccs to = luigi

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If anything happens to bf, by this same logic, bounties is dead.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> the problem is a person.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> And what will we replace that person with, then?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Voldemort

luigi11111

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> (i mean, "he who shall not be named")

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Or she

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Idk

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> They/them

<r​brunner7:monero.social> You don't know?

Rbrunner8

<r​brunner7:monero.social> No idea, no proposal, nothing brainstormed?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I finished my brainstorming on day 2

<r​brunner7:monero.social> With the result "Luigi must go", and that's it?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Nono

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I cant speak up without being rude, and that wont help right now

<r​brunner7:monero.social> You have a proposal that is inherently rude, and that you can't get accross without being rude?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Its not inherently rude to people its not intended to insult

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Rbrunner :D i wont say right now

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Ill think of another way to propose if this continues

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Or ill change my proposal to some that ppl wont like as much but will accept

<r​brunner7:monero.social> What is "this" in "if this continues"? I am much convinced that "this" will continue for quite some more time, given the rate of viable proposals popping up right now, which approximates zero at times.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> This = stalled ccs bcuz of excuses

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Zero, precisely

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Why are we fielding nonsense

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> We have devs to feed

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Field later

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> gave kaya 8 weeks to raise his $, after 8 weeks of deliberating, and hes not even able to raise a penny 8 weeks after he gets "merged"

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Thats not a short amount of time

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> What a ridiculously stupid reason to stop fcmp

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Devs werent given assurances that they could keep working

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> At or around last meeting it was made sure that devs would be paid retroactively

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But how many times was pay requested and ignored?

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I am very much at a loss at imagining proposals that may improve things but are too rude to explain them here. I can easily imagine radical proposals, but rude ones?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Rude because of my delivery

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Rather, offensive

<r​brunner7:monero.social> That makes a little bit more sense. But should be a problem that has possible solutions.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Bad things happen when good people fail to act

<r​brunner7:monero.social> But anyway, if we propose to start something very differently, not involving persons that were involved until now, well in my book that's not rude, and not offensive.

<r​brunner7:monero.social> We are just writing, after all.

The only missing thing from the PG CCS mode is kayabanerves.primary address/viewkey being used on the backend with his and only his proposal on the funding page for 8 weeks disclaimer

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> right.. yet....... we talk in circles

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And yet.. thats using square wheels for no reason aside from "the round, bald one popped"

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I am carefully trying to avoid that, but may not be successful.

Kayaba is a protected individual (PI) from the PG however, he has no funding

Have to fix that first

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Kaya's ccs is "complete", so really, should be no reason it cant go directly to his wallet (unless the repo is just a readme that says "gotcha, suckers")

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Another weird ccs

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Where youd assume GF would be involved in FCMP

One of our PI's jberman has done contract work inside that fcmp proposal so we are shooting 2 devs in the foot

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> But nah, kaya has 8 weeks to take whatever he can get together

But lets talk about 2/7 multisig

<r​brunner7:monero.social> 7 is a nice number.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> I like 23/69

<r​brunner7:monero.social> I learned in one of the last MRL meetings that Serai's multisig implemenation could do that.

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Lets make it super easy to rob (2/7) or super hard to spend (23/69)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Quorum of meetings is Doesnt even hit 23

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yet we have more ppl to sign tx for things decided on here?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> an 2 people who attend a meeting fan sign = 2/7

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Can*

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Yet we have more ppl to sign tx for things decided on here?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> and* 2 people who attend a meeting can* sign = 2/7

How much moneys would it take to buy 2/7 priv keys from that group and promise them plausible deniability as multisig isnt proven secure

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> dont need more than 3/4 donation, 3/4 jetfund, and 2/3 payout

Less money than it would cost to tempt the escrow holder of a standard monero wallet that was confirmed as being created offline (no half seed sent by pigeon mail and the other half via sound waves over SecureChatAppv99)

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> 4sure lol

100k and you can blame ooo123... Take it or leave it

it's really important to have only best feelings

for our community members and to share happiness everyday

because we shouldn't fight in between us

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Make love not war

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> And plowsof has been drafted 😬

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "us". We might be in the same chatroom, but idk bout some of yall

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> looking at you, dan

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Sus

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> So today does the pc get write 0?

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> Imagine investigator is culprit

I think we could establish a list of people willing to be escrow provider. We could put into place an opsec policy, and then put into place a rotation policy. This would distribute responsibility and widen the potential attack surface that an attacker would need to scan, as we could keep "current escrow holder" secret (to all but the previous escrow holder).

OR

We just take the risk with multisig (for now).

Second option is much easier, obviously

<1​23bob123:matrix.org> yolo

Rucknium: can we move maybe FCMP to magic monero fund using fountain of appreciation ?

I can feel that the power of positive vibes and strength within us can make it work with magic funds

<r​ucknium:monero.social> Work and research on FCMP can be funded by the MAGIC Monero Fund, but kayabaNerve cannot be paid because he is on the MMF committee. It's a conflict of interest.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> ofrnxmr: Unless I'm oblivious, my proposal was never merged.

<k​ayabanerve:matrix.org> plowsof: Is that a theoretical technical, or a request?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> It wasnt merged because the wallet was hacked when we voted to merge it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> it should have been merged and funded for many weeks now

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> And illl add again, i dont know why core isnt SUPPORTING it, and instead putting limits on the time to fund

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> If core funded 100% of fcmp research from start to finish, would anyone complain?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> Iant that what "general" is?

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> or generalfund just pays for hosting and infra and banks the rest

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> "If core funded" s/core/generalfund

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> > It wasnt merged because the wallet was hacked when we voted to merge it

<o​frnxmr:monero.social> After weeks of red tape proposed by ccs scammers