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plowsof11
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Iwjsks[m]
Can I ask something hypothetical? If let's say the EU or another country or block of countries would come to the community to express concerns of money laundering and using XMR for criminal purposes, would the community be willing to work with the EU let's say to address these concerns? Not making the privacy weaker but perhaps using something like ZKPs or something else to prove that transactions are not being used for harmful activitie
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Iwjsks[m]
Just a genuine question that popped up in my head
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Iwjsks[m]
I'm still quite new here and learning so please don't kill me for asking this if it's stupid
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moneromooo
The problem is, they're abusing their power to spy massively, so there is no trust left. That's why monero exists, really. To try and claw *some* privacy back.
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moneromooo
Ideally preventing serious crimes seems like a good idea, but I don't think it's feasible without opening the door to all the abuses they're doing now.
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moneromooo
There is *one* way I can see, but it also makes monero fairly useless: somehow ensuring that the monero market cap stays low.
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moneromooo
I had been thinking of a chain with "weak" crypto, so that a tx could be brute forced, so the spying could only be done on select txes, and wholesale spying becomes prohibitively expensive. but how to tune this ? Impossible really.
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moneromooo
You'd have to know (and predict) how much power the would be spies can afford to let rip.
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moneromooo
And since they have essentially unlimited money to throw at it (if they need more, they can tax you more, so in effect you pay to break your own privacy), it seems like a non starter.
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moneromooo
The "solutions" I've seen are basically "trust us". Like escrow. Laughale. Fool me once... it's like fool me 300 times by now.
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moneromooo
It's a kind of evolution in action too.
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moneromooo
They spy on everyone, creating evolutionary pressure for people to protect themselves.
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moneromooo
This in turn means they will adapt and try to find purchase on new tech.
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moneromooo
Unfortunately, criminals are more in need of privacy than the average joe, so they'll be some of the first to adopt.
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moneromooo
So by their mass spying, they themselves end up pushing criminals to be *better* defended by average.
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Iwjsks[m]
I see
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Iwjsks[m]
I entirely agree generally Lagarde said she wants to make illegal to pay with cash above 1000€
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moneromooo
It is not unexpected. It also the hallmark of a non free society, when stuff is assumed illegal unless proved illegal.
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moneromooo
Illegal to pay case, because if you do you're not spied on, and the purchase you made is deemed to have been likely illegal.
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moneromooo
It is also expediency I think. Or dishonesty.
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moneromooo
Could be both, but:
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moneromooo
Expediency: they cannot enforce laws on preventing (as an example) drug trafficking: so they go for hte next best thing: money transfers. Though that is not illegal, they will be made illegal to have a secondary effect. The ends justifies the means.
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moneromooo
Dishonesty: maybe they don't actually care about the claimed crimes, they just want to spy in the first place.
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moneromooo
I mean, that second one sounds like paranoia, but so many countries crack down on cannabis hard for what ? It seems like such a waste of resources if that really is the goal.
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moneromooo
Anyway, lack of trust is the big problem here. They're hardly ever honest and can't be trusted.
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moneromooo
It seems like every law about spying is voted in to be used for terrorism, child porn, hard drugs, etc, and soon enough it starts being used for less and less until it's used for everything.
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moneromooo
There is a *constant* pressure to push more and more for more spying. They *never* stop. Step by step. It's like a fucking bulldozer without a driver.
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moneromooo
They're counting on generations. A generation every what, 25 years ? People born 10 years ago are now used to having cameras all over the place. They'll be much less likely to wtf at more privacy violations that those of us born 40 years ago, because they've been conditioned now.
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moneromooo
But hey, you never know, maybe there's a magic crypto wand somewhere that can give us a good enough way to sort.
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moneromooo
I doubt it though, because the problem is one of legality (not even ethics/morals), so that's orthogonal to tech.
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moneromooo
Hmm. I have this crazy wtf idea...
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moneromooo
Current ML models are famous for being totally inscrutable.
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moneromooo
Train a future one that's even more black box, and it gets to know the details of every tx. It is basically the "chain" for a new currency.
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moneromooo
It knows who sent to whom, etc, and can therefore ensure you only spend what you own, etc.
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moneromooo
So black box, noone can RE it to spy.
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moneromooo
BUT
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moneromooo
It has somehow been imbued with ethics. And if you give it convincing arguments that a particular tx is linked to serious crime, it can disclose the data.
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moneromooo
But if you ask it for more txes, it just tells you to sit on it.
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moneromooo
It's basically escrow, but with a black box alien rather than the asshole govt who's spying on you in the first place.
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moneromooo
(or with the sleazy corp that claims to be a honest third party but who'll sell your data if it's not pwned already before it does so)
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moneromooo
But hey, that's science fiction. For now.
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moneromooo
I suspect that the need for 100% certainty for no double spending or spending fictitious money would mean that part of hte black box would become not so black as a result, negating the protection.
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moneromooo
It's kinda sad, that we have to expend this kind of work just because there are so many fucking assholes who spy on everything we do.
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moneromooo
And I'm sure they're thinking it's kinda sad they have to spy on all of us because they are so many fucking assholes doing serious crime. Shrug.
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moneromooo
Actually, no. They probably don't. They're thinking it's kinda sad they have to *work* at spying instead of just looking.
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moneromooo
Anyway. Sometimes I hope some big privacy hullaballo drops and people wake up and start thinking wtf have I done, let me protect my privacy now.
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moneromooo
And then snowden and Cambridge analytica happens, and people just continue not giving a rat's ass. It's so fucking depressing.
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moneromooo
What's needed now ? China to invade and know exactly when to launch the nano-ICBMs at individual people ?
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moneromooo
Apologies for the rant. It's so... easy... to get into it :D
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moneromooo
s/when to launch/where to launch/
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moneromooo
(and yes, that's in reference to the nazis using a database withe religion after invading can't recall which N europe country)
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moneromooo
And your original question mentioned money laundering: let me just rant one last time about this: money laundering is... a fancy word meaning "not giving the spies full info about your money". It's basically a synonym for "privacy about your finances", given a new name so people don't autonatically go "wait, wat ?"
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moneromooo
At some point, they'll move into something else. Like "location privacy". You'll be assumed to be up to no good if you go out without a working phone.
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moneromooo
Which, as an aside, I believe was already used as an argument in court, though that's just my failing memory and I have no source url to share.
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moneromooo
They'll find another name for it, and call it a crime.
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moneromooo
There are new laws too in some places saying it's illegal to be in certain places with your face covered. NOT if you're committing a crime at the same time. Just having your face covered.
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moneromooo
It's illegal to protect yourself against automated face recog cameras tracking your movements.
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moneromooo
Depends on the jurisdiction, on the particular location, etc, but it'll get more and more widespread.
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moneromooo
And of course the databases with all that will get leaked at some point.
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moneromooo
I'll also add in there that usually politicians voting this shite carve out a little out for themselves.
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moneromooo
Because the little shits do realize it's an outrageous imposition.
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moneromooo
But hey, at least I can still say something like this without getting invited for tea at the nearest police station. For now.
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moneromooo
(that tells you I am not located in China. Long may it continue)
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moneromooo
BTW, since I did mention China. There is a trend of Chinese equipment being used for mass spying in western countries. Even Chinese companies being hired to process some of it.
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moneromooo
And of course the usual offshoring. "Your data will not be shared with third parties" is typically a load of bullshit. Your data will get shared with subcontractors at will. Put on Amazon servers. etc.
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moneromooo
The people saying it sometimes don't care about whether it's true, sometimes don't even realize it's not true.
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moneromooo
Well, I guess sometimes it is true also I suppose. They're not *all* fucking assholes.
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moneromooo
But with everything in "the cloud" nowadays, it's super easy for a "config error" to leak it all.
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moneromooo
And yes, that did happen to me personally. I got fucked at least once (probably many more I never learned out).
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moneromooo
I suppose I'm lucky I get to care about my privacy. It means I don't have to care about missiles dropping on me. Good time.s
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woodser[m]
nice rant
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jonjones2000[m]
Is it possible to run a monero node over tor?
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moneromooo
Yes.
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moneromooo
There is a doc in ANONYMITY_NETWORKS.md
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jonjones2000[m]
moneromooo: Is that a website?
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moneromooo
It is a file in the monero repo.
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jonjones2000[m]
moneromooo: Ok thanks. Like a tutorial?
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moneromooo
Can't remember very well. Read it and tell us :)
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moneromooo
But it's what I used to set up mine.
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jonjones2000[m]
moneromooo: Ok great. I had heard there is something callled dandelion. Which doesnt allow you run a monero node over tor. Glad to hear you did it successfully?
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jonjones2000[m]
jonjones2000[m]: This is the repo in github right?
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jonjones2000[m]
<moneromooo> "There is a doc in ANONYMITY_NETW..." <- This is the repo in github?
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moneromooo
Yes.
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moneromooo
Dandelion does not prevent running over tor AFAIK. It is also not needed when using tor since it's really a poor man's tor for txes.
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jonjones2000[m]
moneromooo: Thank you for your help. So its possible to run as hidden service?
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moneromooo
Yes.
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jonjones2000[m]
moneromooo: Thank you
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Alex|LocalMonero
<moneromooo> "Current ML models are famous for..." <- To be fair to machines, biological models are pretty inscrutable as well. Even the simpler ones.
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moneromooo
In the context of the point above, the comparison is not salient since one would not have to reverse engineer information from the biological system unwillingly.
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moneromooo
There are ways to convince the biological system to volunteer the information outright.
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moneromooo
A closer comparison could be to a large bureaucracy, which could conceivably be put in charge of escrow. I find it amusing to imagine spies trying to convince a huge bureaucracy to get them the info they want...
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moneromooo
(of course it would not happen in pratice, they'll have god mode in there, but still, fun to imagine)
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moneromooo
Actually, a judicial system is supposed to be such a system currently. There are checks and balances supposed to shield us. You have to convince a judge. Ideally.
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moneromooo
In practice it a rusty sieve made of cheap cardboard with bullet holes in it.
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moneromooo
IF that judicial system was black box enough that you had to get through it to get the data (instead of just grabbing the data) and IF you could not find a pliant judge to rubberstamp your stuff and IF you could not just change the law to see "the home secretary's will is god's will", then it would be a similar system.
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moneromooo
The black box AI is really an attempt at such a checlks and balances system that annot be subverted (or isn't smoke and mirrors in the first place).
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moneromooo
Gedanken experiment anyway. Can't happen with what we have now...
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Alex|LocalMonero
<moneromooo> "There are ways to convince the..." <- Yeah but it's pretty easy to jailbreak a LLM as well.
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moneromooo
Yes. Hence Can't happen with what we have now.
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Alex|LocalMonero
I'd argue it's way easier.
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Alex|LocalMonero
Right.
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moneromooo
But now seems like the Cambrian explosion of those systems. A lot of new stuff, the overwhelming majority will die out.
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moneromooo
It's a breadth first exploration of a few levels. In a few years, we might have a few that continue and evolve into something a lot sturdier.
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moneromooo
And then it'll slow down again.
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moneromooo
Evolution, again. It's everywhere if you look really.
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moneromooo
Find a new niche, rush in. Fill it, new pressures.
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moneromooo
It is fascinating.
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moneromooo
Cryptocurrencies are also that. Maybe I'm having pareidolia though.
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Alex|LocalMonero
No, you're right. It's the free market's selection pressures that are driving the extinction of most projects that don't do something well. There's a lot of vaporware obviously, but to use your metaphor crypto is also in the cambrian explosion phase, so most will go extinct.
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Alex|LocalMonero
I think we should move this discussion to offtopic, though.
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midipoet
who is gonna tell them off for going off-topic in the -dev channel?
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moneromooo
Sorry. moneromooo: that way ->
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Rucknium[m]
Iwjsks: There are about 4 research papers about creating a Monero-like system but authorities would have a "master view key":
libera.monerologs.net/monero-research-lab/20230411
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Rucknium[m]
At least I think the papers propose to use a master view key. I did not look at the papers closely.
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woodser[m]
does anyone know if it's possible to connect to clearnet monerods from wallets using a tor proxy (via the --proxy startup flag) ?
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woodser[m]
I'd like to connect a wallet to clearnet monerods through tor using --proxy, but the wallet is indicating an error when the destination monerod is clearnet instead of onion
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woodser[m]
indicating a connection error, that is
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woodser[m]
nevermind, pretty sure the answer is no, it's not supported
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DanIsnotthemanBr
Like going out a exit node?
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woodser[m]
as in, starting the wallet with a socks5 tor proxy, setting its daemon to a clearnet daemon, and the traffic is routed through tor. it's not working for me, which could be because it's not supported in monero-project and how my proxy is configured
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moneromooo
monerod won't care whether the client comes from a tor exit node or not.